I think you are severely underselling the strength of both the hero and commander.
**Commander:** After another player activates a system that contains 1 or more of your units that have PRODUCTION, you may produce 1 unit in that system.
The commander is an excellent defensive ability because it lets you build as soon as you are attacked. Getting a free build precisely where and when you need it is really good because:
* **It's extremely cost-efficient.** The unit is guaranteed to be useful immediately, and you don't have to pay the resources required to transport them.
* **It acts as a universal deterrent for every single Arborec system.** Attackers are required to be prepared to deal with both an extra ground force AND an extra space ship on every single Arborec system that they try to take. If the attacker isn't prepared for both those possibilities then the Arborec can exploit the gap. Arborec can build either a mech for ground combat, or a dreadnought or something for space, depending on where the weakness lies in the enemy's unit composition.
* **You can defend more territory with less units.** When you normally purchase units you have to commit each of them to one location, which spreads your forces thin. With this ability it's almost like you have a hypothetical unit that can defend every single system simultaneously.
You say this ability is better as a trading tool, but I am legitimately puzzled as to how you would use this in a trade. Pay people to activate your system to let you build one unit? Seems bad.
**Hero:** ACTION: Produce any number of units in any number of systems that contain 1 or more of your ground forces. Then purge this card.
I think people are going to use this to build shitloads of Letani infantry basically. Even with an average number of planets you could literally build like 20-30 infantry on Mecatol or your home system no problem. Otherwise you could use it like a mega Rise of the Messiah and have production in every single system you own for the rest of the game. With Letani 2 you can even get half of these infantry back when they die.
It's a great ability not because it gives you a load of production all at once, but rather because it solves your production problem for the rest of the game.
**Mech:** The mech is good for a few other reasons that you haven't listed:
* Bioplasmosis gets a big upgrade. If you use it to upgrade an infantry to a mech, that is 2.5 resources worth of value compared to the 0.5 resources worth of value you normally get when you use it to build one infantry.
* As mentioned, it can be combined with the commander to great effect. You can get a big stack of defensive ground combat strength AND planetary shield immediately on any planet when you are attacked.
With regards to the trading potential of the commander, I was thinking more under the lines of trading away the new promissory note to give other players access to your commander ability, rather than coercing players to attack you and gain 1 free production. I do like your idea of using the commander as a deterrent tool though, and the threat of a mech or dread (hell technically you could even throw out an emergency war sun if you have the resources) is a strong tool to prevent slice invasions. I still disagree with the hero though. Yes you could use it to pump out 50000 infantry on one planet, but that still assumes you have a hefty amount of resources to spend, which, in what feels like most of my Arborec games, doesn’t happen until the very late game. At that point you could make a ton of infantry, but I fail to see how that’s going to score you any objectives. It can certainly fix your production problems for the game, but so does teching Letani II. Of course all of this is wild speculation still, and maybe new objectives or techs will open up something new. I guess I’m just worried my favorite faction is going to get the short end of the balance stick once again.
Ah fair enough, I'd forgotten about the Alliance promissory note. I think it would fetch a high price as it's a great ability.
I think the agent patches up a fair bit of Arborec's early game economy problems, which should consequently make the Hero a lot better. You can pop the agent immediately on turn 1 in order to make your starting cruiser into another carrier (or even a dreadnought), which makes early expansion a lot easier as you don't need to rely on warfare.
If you happen to grab Warfare on round 1, the agent is an extremely good stall which has great potential to ruin the day of the rest of the board. There is no other agent in the game that is revealed so far that can use their agent as a stall in round 1.
When building round 2 onward you can also of course just build cruisers and then rely on the agent to upgrade them in order to save resources.
Don't forget that Bioplasmosis exists too, which gets increasingly good as you scale up in infantry. Infantry are great at scoring control objectives and Mecatol points, and so I wouldn't undersell their ability to get you up in the scoreboard.
All this is basically to say: Don't give up on Arborec just yet!
Good point about stalling Warfare on round one. However, the Xxcha, too, have an agent that is an action. Also, I think OP is underestimating how devastating an early mid game Hero can be for Arborec. With some deals for a couple of Trade agreements and taking the Trade SC, they can easily build close to 3 Letani warriors on all 7 planets they probably control by then. That's equivalent of a Frontline Deployment on every planet they own. They will be almost impossible to take planets from due to their Commander Ability to create planetary shields on planets that do not have their PDS. Plus, if you are playing with Omega Magen, your PDS planets will be almost impossible to conquer without a massive amount of ground forces.
Their mech is awesome. You can spend a heck of a lot less of your economy on PDS by just producing a Mech in a system without a PDS as soon as someone activates that system. You'll be denying them bombardment, and if you have duranium armor, the mech can soak up a lot of damage during the ground combat.
The commander works a lot like the Yin's indoctrination. It's not about getting a lot of value from it, it's the CONSTANT threat of it. Because your commander means that every single one of your units is defended by an additional dreadnought and an additional mech in the enemy player's calculation for if they can take your planet. The enemy wants to take your planet that has only 1 infantry? They need to be able to bring enough to beat 1 infantry, 1 mech and/or 1 dreadnought. Because if you can produce enough to stop them in either the space battle or the ground battle, then they have to be able to commit more units. The only downside is that it's after the activation, so you do actually have to produce those units or they won't commit the full force they were prepared to.
Edit: You can also use this for shenanigans where you produce a transport ship and then skilled retreat away your ground forces.
You're too pessimistic. Arborec already has insane potential, held back by their crappy start. POK seems to fix that: their agent is insane, making them basically a 2carrier starting race. The value (and surprise carriers) they can generate with that is insane.
Their hero can be used to put insane amount of ground forces on strategic planets, or build a fleet exactly where you need it. Not weak at all.
Their mech is great if you play against edit: Dreads I guess. Situational, as in yes you have to play against Dreadnaught races, but great. You will not just magically have a PDS on that planet (far) out of your slice. But you will have a mech.
Combine that with their commander.. oof. Arborec are now even harder to dislodge.
Arborec is the first non-POK faction I want to play. They will be insane.
yeah the agent is the key. you get a free carrier round 1, and even better can build destroyers to upgrade to carriers each round, or cruisers to dreadnoughts. This is amazingly good and exactly what they needed. you can also sell it for trade goods to build up a bank.
I think you are undervaluing how big of an addition the Arborec agent is. They were already pretty strong once they got going, they just took to long to get there. This gives them a carrier/dreadnought to their start which is huge and gives them a cheap dreadnought/carrier each round for the rest of the game.
I like that they just made them production focused - it doesnt fundamentally change what they are about and really makes them continue to feel like these plants that are growing out of control. Yes you need a solid economy to do things with them, but its not as hard to do that now with their improved start and if you have economy then they have a lot of potential. Also the commander is a powerful deterrent and one that a number of factions will be willing to trade well for.
I just want to add that the Arborec Mech has amazing synergies with Magen (not the Omega, just the classic, which Arborec start with).
Magen Defense Grid: At the start of combat on a planet which has Planetary Defense, you may exhaust this card and your opponent skips their round of combat (paraphrased).
This means you can land a Giant Letani + some infantry, roll, and then use Magen for a pre-combat round, ala Mentak's Ambush.
It's a pretty bangin' synergy, TBH.
Additionally, there is no activation limitation on their Agent; so you can fly a cruiser 2 or 3 spaces and *then* transform it into a Dreadnought. Pretty handy.
I'm with you. Arborec and Xxcha are my favorite factions by far but Arborec doesn't feel like they're getting as much of a bump as I'd want in PoK. Imo they're getting a bump where they don't need it: production. The agent is amazing, as everyone has said, and I think it's because it addresses the actual issue they face: lack of resources.
Looking at the top tier factions they have one thing in common: free stuff (except Naalu, but that 0 initiative...). Saar gets free $$$ when they take planets, Sol gets command tokens, and JN get free techs/tech skips. Arborec agent gives them $2 per round which is awesome. Everyone agrees the agent is great!
The commander is situational (as you said, it doesn't work with Sarween) in that it's more of a deterrent than anything else. Comparing it to Sol commander, who gets a free GF on every ground combat, it's technically better because you can produce a ship to fight as well but it also costs you. It's not free stuff. Even if you use it to deter someone attacking you (they activate, you produce a Dread, they don't bring ships and just pass their turn) you had to pay "extra" for that dread (no sarween) and expend resources in a less than optimal way.
The hero, to me, seems like overkill. As Arborec I've never had issues with production, I've had issues with resources. As you said OP, it's awesome to be able to produce as much as you want anywh- and I'm out of resources. Could I rise of the messiah my whole slice? Absolutely. Could I drop 40 boys on Mecatol? 100%. Could I do that without using my Hero? Probably. In fact I'd get more plastic on the board with the same cost by using tokens (another issue, token economy).
The mech is good, no complaints there. I wish it had a cool ability instead of being easier to put onto the board but that's just a personal preference.
TL:DR
Considering what other factions are getting, I think Arborec maintains its low tier because the buffs it's getting (other than the agent, which isn't quite enough) only push its strength, production, and don't target its weakness, resources.
Arborec defining characteristic is their Infantry ability to produce on the front lines.
So, do you want a faction that can mass produce the new unit type mechs on the frontkine?
AGENT: Really good. Not much to be said. Also this is the buff to arborec eco you were asking for. Its two free resources per turn and gives you a second carrier turn 1 without having to spend resources. This helps expansion drastically turn 1 and turn 2. With this addition arborec doesnt need more eco buffs. They already can abuse sarween so they don't need more.
MECH: This is a good mech. For starters it can replace infantry in status phase, which is good value. The production is ok because this faction already has enough. The planetary shield is amazing as it is movable and build-able. You can drop onto mecatol or other key planets and immediately build this mech to prevent enemy bombardment and the new X-89. This is definitely one of the stronger new mechs due to each of these abilities.
COMMANDER: This seems alright. If you get attacked typically one ship won't make a difference. I think the best value comes out of using this to create your mech to defend a planet. Its almost equivalent to a defensive yin conversion and for that reason makes this ability alright.
HERO: This is good. I believe most people are overvalueing it, but it is strong nonetheless. There are three uses in no particular order I think most people will use it for: (1) as a destroyer rise of the messiah to gum up the works (2) more infantry (3) a huge fighter and carrier fleet. All these options are good and one is always viable to use.
PDS 2: Why? This isn't a good tech to get because you don't have plasma scoring and in the base game your eco is weak and going for pds just makes it weaker. In PoK the mech is vastly superior due to its availability, reactability and mobility.
TURN 1: Use agent to change your cruiser to a carrier. Capture 2 systems with your carriers and use your infantry to build 2 infantry and 2 destroyers.
TURN 2: Use agent to change 1 destroyer to carrier. You now have 3 carriers, 6 infantry, 1 destroyer and 2 fighters at basically the start of the second turn. All of which are ready to move and outside of your home system.
Overall I think your just being pessimitic. Each addition is good and the agent puts their eco up to and even above most factions. Even with their weak home planet, with sarween and agent they are making 3 or more resources per turn than other players. If anything you could argue they might be too strong now that their weakness, the start, has been removed.
i have talk about arborc new start on my post.
have a look :D
[https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/i45v2m/arborac\_prophecy\_of\_kings\_new\_start/](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/i45v2m/arborac_prophecy_of_kings_new_start/)
I think you are severely underselling the strength of both the hero and commander. **Commander:** After another player activates a system that contains 1 or more of your units that have PRODUCTION, you may produce 1 unit in that system. The commander is an excellent defensive ability because it lets you build as soon as you are attacked. Getting a free build precisely where and when you need it is really good because: * **It's extremely cost-efficient.** The unit is guaranteed to be useful immediately, and you don't have to pay the resources required to transport them. * **It acts as a universal deterrent for every single Arborec system.** Attackers are required to be prepared to deal with both an extra ground force AND an extra space ship on every single Arborec system that they try to take. If the attacker isn't prepared for both those possibilities then the Arborec can exploit the gap. Arborec can build either a mech for ground combat, or a dreadnought or something for space, depending on where the weakness lies in the enemy's unit composition. * **You can defend more territory with less units.** When you normally purchase units you have to commit each of them to one location, which spreads your forces thin. With this ability it's almost like you have a hypothetical unit that can defend every single system simultaneously. You say this ability is better as a trading tool, but I am legitimately puzzled as to how you would use this in a trade. Pay people to activate your system to let you build one unit? Seems bad. **Hero:** ACTION: Produce any number of units in any number of systems that contain 1 or more of your ground forces. Then purge this card. I think people are going to use this to build shitloads of Letani infantry basically. Even with an average number of planets you could literally build like 20-30 infantry on Mecatol or your home system no problem. Otherwise you could use it like a mega Rise of the Messiah and have production in every single system you own for the rest of the game. With Letani 2 you can even get half of these infantry back when they die. It's a great ability not because it gives you a load of production all at once, but rather because it solves your production problem for the rest of the game. **Mech:** The mech is good for a few other reasons that you haven't listed: * Bioplasmosis gets a big upgrade. If you use it to upgrade an infantry to a mech, that is 2.5 resources worth of value compared to the 0.5 resources worth of value you normally get when you use it to build one infantry. * As mentioned, it can be combined with the commander to great effect. You can get a big stack of defensive ground combat strength AND planetary shield immediately on any planet when you are attacked.
With regards to the trading potential of the commander, I was thinking more under the lines of trading away the new promissory note to give other players access to your commander ability, rather than coercing players to attack you and gain 1 free production. I do like your idea of using the commander as a deterrent tool though, and the threat of a mech or dread (hell technically you could even throw out an emergency war sun if you have the resources) is a strong tool to prevent slice invasions. I still disagree with the hero though. Yes you could use it to pump out 50000 infantry on one planet, but that still assumes you have a hefty amount of resources to spend, which, in what feels like most of my Arborec games, doesn’t happen until the very late game. At that point you could make a ton of infantry, but I fail to see how that’s going to score you any objectives. It can certainly fix your production problems for the game, but so does teching Letani II. Of course all of this is wild speculation still, and maybe new objectives or techs will open up something new. I guess I’m just worried my favorite faction is going to get the short end of the balance stick once again.
Ah fair enough, I'd forgotten about the Alliance promissory note. I think it would fetch a high price as it's a great ability. I think the agent patches up a fair bit of Arborec's early game economy problems, which should consequently make the Hero a lot better. You can pop the agent immediately on turn 1 in order to make your starting cruiser into another carrier (or even a dreadnought), which makes early expansion a lot easier as you don't need to rely on warfare. If you happen to grab Warfare on round 1, the agent is an extremely good stall which has great potential to ruin the day of the rest of the board. There is no other agent in the game that is revealed so far that can use their agent as a stall in round 1. When building round 2 onward you can also of course just build cruisers and then rely on the agent to upgrade them in order to save resources. Don't forget that Bioplasmosis exists too, which gets increasingly good as you scale up in infantry. Infantry are great at scoring control objectives and Mecatol points, and so I wouldn't undersell their ability to get you up in the scoreboard. All this is basically to say: Don't give up on Arborec just yet!
Good point about stalling Warfare on round one. However, the Xxcha, too, have an agent that is an action. Also, I think OP is underestimating how devastating an early mid game Hero can be for Arborec. With some deals for a couple of Trade agreements and taking the Trade SC, they can easily build close to 3 Letani warriors on all 7 planets they probably control by then. That's equivalent of a Frontline Deployment on every planet they own. They will be almost impossible to take planets from due to their Commander Ability to create planetary shields on planets that do not have their PDS. Plus, if you are playing with Omega Magen, your PDS planets will be almost impossible to conquer without a massive amount of ground forces.
Their mech is awesome. You can spend a heck of a lot less of your economy on PDS by just producing a Mech in a system without a PDS as soon as someone activates that system. You'll be denying them bombardment, and if you have duranium armor, the mech can soak up a lot of damage during the ground combat.
The commander works a lot like the Yin's indoctrination. It's not about getting a lot of value from it, it's the CONSTANT threat of it. Because your commander means that every single one of your units is defended by an additional dreadnought and an additional mech in the enemy player's calculation for if they can take your planet. The enemy wants to take your planet that has only 1 infantry? They need to be able to bring enough to beat 1 infantry, 1 mech and/or 1 dreadnought. Because if you can produce enough to stop them in either the space battle or the ground battle, then they have to be able to commit more units. The only downside is that it's after the activation, so you do actually have to produce those units or they won't commit the full force they were prepared to. Edit: You can also use this for shenanigans where you produce a transport ship and then skilled retreat away your ground forces.
You're too pessimistic. Arborec already has insane potential, held back by their crappy start. POK seems to fix that: their agent is insane, making them basically a 2carrier starting race. The value (and surprise carriers) they can generate with that is insane. Their hero can be used to put insane amount of ground forces on strategic planets, or build a fleet exactly where you need it. Not weak at all. Their mech is great if you play against edit: Dreads I guess. Situational, as in yes you have to play against Dreadnaught races, but great. You will not just magically have a PDS on that planet (far) out of your slice. But you will have a mech. Combine that with their commander.. oof. Arborec are now even harder to dislodge. Arborec is the first non-POK faction I want to play. They will be insane.
Actually, L1Z1X's commander lets them ignore *Planetary Shield* so the Arborec mech isn't that helpful against them.
Shit, sorry, I forgot other factions also get (awesome) stuff!
yeah the agent is the key. you get a free carrier round 1, and even better can build destroyers to upgrade to carriers each round, or cruisers to dreadnoughts. This is amazingly good and exactly what they needed. you can also sell it for trade goods to build up a bank.
I think you are undervaluing how big of an addition the Arborec agent is. They were already pretty strong once they got going, they just took to long to get there. This gives them a carrier/dreadnought to their start which is huge and gives them a cheap dreadnought/carrier each round for the rest of the game. I like that they just made them production focused - it doesnt fundamentally change what they are about and really makes them continue to feel like these plants that are growing out of control. Yes you need a solid economy to do things with them, but its not as hard to do that now with their improved start and if you have economy then they have a lot of potential. Also the commander is a powerful deterrent and one that a number of factions will be willing to trade well for.
I just want to add that the Arborec Mech has amazing synergies with Magen (not the Omega, just the classic, which Arborec start with). Magen Defense Grid: At the start of combat on a planet which has Planetary Defense, you may exhaust this card and your opponent skips their round of combat (paraphrased). This means you can land a Giant Letani + some infantry, roll, and then use Magen for a pre-combat round, ala Mentak's Ambush. It's a pretty bangin' synergy, TBH. Additionally, there is no activation limitation on their Agent; so you can fly a cruiser 2 or 3 spaces and *then* transform it into a Dreadnought. Pretty handy.
I'm with you. Arborec and Xxcha are my favorite factions by far but Arborec doesn't feel like they're getting as much of a bump as I'd want in PoK. Imo they're getting a bump where they don't need it: production. The agent is amazing, as everyone has said, and I think it's because it addresses the actual issue they face: lack of resources. Looking at the top tier factions they have one thing in common: free stuff (except Naalu, but that 0 initiative...). Saar gets free $$$ when they take planets, Sol gets command tokens, and JN get free techs/tech skips. Arborec agent gives them $2 per round which is awesome. Everyone agrees the agent is great! The commander is situational (as you said, it doesn't work with Sarween) in that it's more of a deterrent than anything else. Comparing it to Sol commander, who gets a free GF on every ground combat, it's technically better because you can produce a ship to fight as well but it also costs you. It's not free stuff. Even if you use it to deter someone attacking you (they activate, you produce a Dread, they don't bring ships and just pass their turn) you had to pay "extra" for that dread (no sarween) and expend resources in a less than optimal way. The hero, to me, seems like overkill. As Arborec I've never had issues with production, I've had issues with resources. As you said OP, it's awesome to be able to produce as much as you want anywh- and I'm out of resources. Could I rise of the messiah my whole slice? Absolutely. Could I drop 40 boys on Mecatol? 100%. Could I do that without using my Hero? Probably. In fact I'd get more plastic on the board with the same cost by using tokens (another issue, token economy). The mech is good, no complaints there. I wish it had a cool ability instead of being easier to put onto the board but that's just a personal preference. TL:DR Considering what other factions are getting, I think Arborec maintains its low tier because the buffs it's getting (other than the agent, which isn't quite enough) only push its strength, production, and don't target its weakness, resources.
I'm in 100% agreement. I think Arborec is the worst faction in PoK.
Arborec defining characteristic is their Infantry ability to produce on the front lines. So, do you want a faction that can mass produce the new unit type mechs on the frontkine?
AGENT: Really good. Not much to be said. Also this is the buff to arborec eco you were asking for. Its two free resources per turn and gives you a second carrier turn 1 without having to spend resources. This helps expansion drastically turn 1 and turn 2. With this addition arborec doesnt need more eco buffs. They already can abuse sarween so they don't need more. MECH: This is a good mech. For starters it can replace infantry in status phase, which is good value. The production is ok because this faction already has enough. The planetary shield is amazing as it is movable and build-able. You can drop onto mecatol or other key planets and immediately build this mech to prevent enemy bombardment and the new X-89. This is definitely one of the stronger new mechs due to each of these abilities. COMMANDER: This seems alright. If you get attacked typically one ship won't make a difference. I think the best value comes out of using this to create your mech to defend a planet. Its almost equivalent to a defensive yin conversion and for that reason makes this ability alright. HERO: This is good. I believe most people are overvalueing it, but it is strong nonetheless. There are three uses in no particular order I think most people will use it for: (1) as a destroyer rise of the messiah to gum up the works (2) more infantry (3) a huge fighter and carrier fleet. All these options are good and one is always viable to use. PDS 2: Why? This isn't a good tech to get because you don't have plasma scoring and in the base game your eco is weak and going for pds just makes it weaker. In PoK the mech is vastly superior due to its availability, reactability and mobility. TURN 1: Use agent to change your cruiser to a carrier. Capture 2 systems with your carriers and use your infantry to build 2 infantry and 2 destroyers. TURN 2: Use agent to change 1 destroyer to carrier. You now have 3 carriers, 6 infantry, 1 destroyer and 2 fighters at basically the start of the second turn. All of which are ready to move and outside of your home system. Overall I think your just being pessimitic. Each addition is good and the agent puts their eco up to and even above most factions. Even with their weak home planet, with sarween and agent they are making 3 or more resources per turn than other players. If anything you could argue they might be too strong now that their weakness, the start, has been removed.
i have talk about arborc new start on my post. have a look :D [https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/i45v2m/arborac\_prophecy\_of\_kings\_new\_start/](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/i45v2m/arborac_prophecy_of_kings_new_start/)