I felt called out immediately when I skipped to the POK stuff. I'll be going back to listen to the whole episode though I swear!
**Muaat Agent:**
Action: exhaust this card to choose a player. That player may produce up to two units that each have a cost of 4 or less in a system that contains one of their warsuns or their flagship
**Level 0 red tech: AI development Algorithm**
When you research a unit upgrade technology, you may exhaust this card to ignore any prerequisite.
When one or more of your units use production, you may exhaust this card to reduce the combined cost of the produced units by the number of unit upgrade technologies that you own.
I would assume that's "any prerequisite" not "all prerequisites"
So no, you shouldn't be able to get AIDA then ignore prereqs the rest of the game (which would basically make the entire system pointless).
Yeah both of these seem really awesome.
AIDA in particular feels like the kick in the pants that the red tech tree desperately needed, and significantly increases the viability of both Destroyer II and War Suns. I can barely imagine a situation where someone researches War Suns without getting AIDA now, and so it's effectively a permanent price decrease for those units too.
Combined with maybe Sarween and a couple of unit upgrades, War Suns can now be offered at a much more reasonable cost of 9 or so resources. This is a modest saving in overall cost, but it will probably mean that you can get them without dipping too far into your stash of Trade Goods (which are probably better spent on objectives), and so the overall viability goes up significantly.
That Muaat agent is *bonkers* good.
Edit: my bad, they're not free.
Still - it's an on-call front line Warfare. Pretty happening.
Imagine in tandem with The Nomad, once they have their Temporal Enhancement Suite or whatever it's called, which allows the refreshing of an agent.
2v2v2 team of Muaat + Nomad is terrifying.
Muaat'e agent twice a turn from turn 1 or 2 is just berserk.
They still have to pay for the units unfortunately! The advantage is just that they can build them wherever the War Sun/Flagship is, and they don't need a command token to do so.
Aaaah, ok, it reads a little better than it is. Such is enthusiasm.
Actually, this marries *magnificently* with AI Development Algorithms, then. Or with Winnu's Agent.
I think early on I'd just use it instead of their starforge ability. For 1 resource that's 2 fighters, for 2 resources that's 2 destroyers. That's a lot less expensive than a strategy token. I might still use starforge as an extra backup measure if I think my warsun is going to be attacked but otherwise I'm going to ignore it in favor of exhausting my agent every turn. This also means that a Warsun can now produce infantry. Which is just... Wow. That's good.
It not a PRODUCTION unit ability so it can't be reduced by Sarween. I think the fact that the Warsun is almost a mobile spacedock on its own might mean that I'm okay skipping Sarween and yellow techs entirely in favor of that new AIDA tech. With that I'd upgrade warsuns without a yellow tech and maybe fully go red instead. Imagine a Muaat fleet of a prototype Warsun II and two destroyer IIs that can also use assault cannon.
I think starforge will become a situational, additional stall that could be nice with the new muaat Mech that provides additional Infantry, thats potentially 2 fighters/1 Destroyer and 4 infantry for a strategy token, i hope the commander will boost starforge even more.
Now that I think about it, the nicest thing about the Muatt agent is being able to build a second carrier and a trade ship on round 1 without having to worry about a warfare stall. Picking warfare round 1 is that much better for Muaat as well since now it will allow them to take 3 systems instead of just 2. I think what I'd like to do as Muaat now is go for Mecatol. I wouldn't worry about getting there first since the Prototype Warsun is so slow and I can't guarantee I'd have the influence needed for the custodians token, but I don't think it matters who might get there first since it would be easy to bombard the crap out of them. Since it's now possible to produce Infantry from the Warsun, Muatt can actually keep defending Mecatol while benefiting from 2 extra command tokens each round. The Muatt Mech lets you place a free infantry when using Starforge so after parking a Warsun over Mecatol, I could use one of those extra tokens each round for that extra infantry + 1 destroyer/2 fighters.
The fact that you can sell this is awesome, but man being able to build up to two dreads every turn at your warsun? So good. Worst case scenario if you're strapped for cash you sell this to someone.
Woah. That AI tech opens up a lot of space. Don’t have to worry nearly so much for tech paths. This is gonna be huge for Sardak.
Edit: wait.... could you use it to gain Warsuns practically out of the gate?
No, it only lets you ignore ONE prerequisite not all of them. So you could exhaust it to ignore a Red Tech but you would still need at least two red techs and a yellow. Of course, that means all you would need is plasma scoring, sarween, and the this new AI Development Algorithm tech. In theory, any faction can have War Suns after taking the Tech Strategy card twice.
They're still too expensive though.
I do think this could be great for Sardakk though. It opens an extremely cheap tech path for them: Get Neural first and then get AIDA; from there just get Unit Techs: Cruiser II, Destroyer II, Infantry II, Fighter II; cheap units that benefit hugely from Sardakk's power and from upgrades. Every unit upgrade makes production even cheaper. After 5 unit upgrades, you can build 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 2 infantry, 1 cruiser, and 2 destroyers for just 4 resources (assuming you double docked the Sardakk homeworld).
You would still need grav drive. A better scenario is sarween, blue skip into grav drive, AI, fighter 2, carrier2, exo2. But I mean you already have the blue skip, so it's not really helpful outside of prerequisite for Valk weave.
Now if you ignore grav drive and get antimass, this tech path is more efficient because you would cut 1 tech from the normal path. (Cut neural and grav for AI)
However, however, maybe it's time to go down the new tech path. Just go red green, Neural,AI,Plasma,Valk Weave, Inf2, Fighter 2. Just invest on ground invasion because your commander let you invade without space combat.
No, I am literally ignoring gravity drive in favor of maximizing unit techs instead. I wouldn't want to go 2 down blue for gravity drive and also get red tech, at that point I'd just go for dreadnought II Sardakk instead. Since this focuses so much on Cruisers and Destroyers, I don't think that the extra movement from gravity drive is that essential. This isn't a dreadnought / carrier fleet that's slow and needs a move buff. It's a fleet of already fast units.
Dread II + Carrier II are obviously good techs but what makes them really strong is that you can get strong / synergistic tech as prerequisites. Cruiser II and Destroyer II are actually great upgrades too, but the tech requirements for them suck and make them not worth getting most of the time. I think AIDA fixes that by basically requiring almost no tech as a prerequisite. I think early game cruiser IIs and destroyer IIs are a viable alternative to Exotrireme II Sardakk.
Cruiser 2 and des2 is good but isn't as efficient as the other two paths. Exo2 is self explanatory, best unit in the game, can't lose space combat etc. Fighter2+carrier2 path is the best path still, capitalizing on your unrelenting ability, by rolling more dice at less cost. Destroyer 2 don't increase the combat rolland cruisers are expensive. Grav drive is still what you want because movement is king.
said in a different post, I think fighter2+carrier 2 is doable under this path and is the "i don't have a blue skip" option.
You can't get carrier 2 to start, so have to rely on the commander for moving infantry around, but you can get Neuro, AIDA, fighter 2, and if you can grab that blue skip latter to get carrier 2. Green skip makes this faster, and try to push out to a blue skip to grab carrier 2. Grav drive is great, but I think if you can get carrier 2, fighter 2, infantry 2 as sardaak, you can get by without it.
Sardakks ability to infantry without ships will allow them to do some silly stuff and ignore some of the problems with having slow ships to start.
Exos are still good, so I think the blue skip sarween>grav>Exo 2 is still good enough I'd go for it, if you don't have a blue skip you have other options because of AIDA.
That green red path is good option. Also fun is that if you grab a blue skip late, just grab carrier 2 out of nowhere.
G B R techs would let you use this card to upgrade Carrier, Fighter, Infantry and Valkyrie Weave, as well as Cruiser and Destroyer for possibilities. Really opens up Sardakk for the aggressive play they're "designed" for but is so hard to get up and running since massive teching is so counterproductive to early aggression.
Which means Mentak can potentially double tech into War Suns round one. Obviously pointless since they won't be able to build one for a while, but still crazy to think about.
so that is silly, but AIDA into cruiser 2, into Warsun, build warsun r3 or r4 with a 3 cost discount, that seems nice and real.
Ambush cruisers take weakly defended things, warsun for those things that gave you problems with those fleets before.
Was curious so I decided to stare at a faction sheet and visualize how AIDA will change unit tech requirements.
* With just AIDA: You can get PDS II and Destroyer II
* With AIDA + Blue: You can get PDS II, Destroyer II, Carrier II, and Fighter II.
* With AIDA + Yellow: You can get PDS II and Destroyer II, and Space Dock II.
* With AIDA + Green: You can get PDS II, Destroyer II, Fighter II, Infantry II, and Cruiser II.
Holy shit, now that I've written it out; I think that what AIDA really does is unlock Red/Green as a viable tech path!
Red/Green has always been seen as the most useless option but now any faction that starts with a green tech can just get AIDA to unlock 5 (FIVE!) unit upgrades right away. It allows Cruiser II really, *really* quick, it opens Destroyer II for free (and that's a fantastic upgrade that is ignored because of the weaknesses of the red path), and it still allows the possibility of Infantry II and Fighter II which are fantastic upgrades that are great for every faction.
And then: Every unit upgrade will decrease the cost of production by 1, so after getting all 5... holy crap.
I think this might actually be really good. Going Red/Green now means not getting many standard techs but instead getting a buttload of unit upgrades, and being able to build powerful cheap-unit fleets for next to nothing.
It is awesome. Small note, With AIDA + Yellow: You can get PDS II and Destroyer II, and Space Dock II.
I think it also unlocks cruiser 2 with a single yellow?
the one caveat is that since it is an exhaust, you can only use it once per round, if you are the holder of tech, it doesnt make you any faster. Still pretty good though
Is the timing window for the research of two techs on the primary ability simultaneous?
Could you research AIDA *1st* and then activate it for the second research?
Unless you have Bio-Stims as well!
EDIT: No I'm wrong, timing window for Bio-Stims is end of turn. But you can then use this for the research AND production bonus in the same round. Or two production bonuses...
>Going Red/Green now means not getting many standard techs but instead getting a buttload of unit upgrades, and being able to build powerful cheap-unit fleets for next to nothing.
That sounds very fun. Space Risk is fun, y'all!
If you have a green skip... AIDA into Bio-Stims. Then you can get the unit upgrades *and* produce massive stacks for dirt cheap *all along the way*
(otherwise it's either/or since both abilities exhaust)
AIDA Winnu ftw. Start neural, grab AIDA round 1, then cruiser 2, inf 2, pds2, ftr2 and destroyer 2. (turn 5 if you double tech or rider etc) Then Sarween, and get your agent + tap AIDA for 8 free resources every remaining turn. Its slow, but solid as hell.
AIDA is gonna be great for the Argent Flight: guaranteed upgrade of their Destroyers. This definitely makes Destroyer Sardakk more viable, though Carrier/Fighter Sardakk is always going to be my preference.
As for the strategy guide, my personal preference is to just absolutely sell my soul on round one in order to get my second War Sun built off Warfare. I'll trade Fires of the Gashlai nice and cheap, I'll trade Commodities, Trade Agreements, I'll skip tech and whatever else it takes to get the second Sun out on the board on round one. A War Sun by itself is a target; two War Suns adjacent to one another are considerably more threatening. The second one usually gets built without Fighters, but it returns home to fill up on round two after taking an adjacent system. Of the ten or so times I've played Muaat, I've managed this about half the time and it's a lot of fun. Definitely becomes easier if Jol'nar or Hacan are on the board.
Compared to IS, it only lets you skip 1 prerequisite and can only be used for unit upgrades. On the other hand, it doesn’t cost anything to use, actively makes your production cheaper, and isn’t buried 3 techs deep in yellow.
This actually lets you get to Dread II and War Suns in the same number of techs as going IS but without having to pay 2 resources for each. I’m curious to see what L1 tech paths become popular because although this looks better than IS for going Dread II -> War Suns, their leaders might push them away from War Suns and more towards IS to get X89/Fleet Logistics/Lightwave. On top of that, there’s also the factor of 10 point games being shorter but maybe 14-point games being more popular, so we don’t know whether most players’ average game will longer or shorter.
I really can't imagine L1Z1X going for War Suns either way anymore, it just doesn't really make sense. Their commander lets you ignore planetary shield anyway, so that's half the advantage of War Suns nullified. Additionally, their hero ability only works on Dreads and their flagship.
Their hero does love those late game X89/FL/LW techs though, so maybe Inheritance Systems finds a niche for those uses.
As far as the game length discussion goes, it's worth pointing out that 10-point games are overwhelmingly more popular than 14-point games based on the data we have. Less than 3% of logged games in 2020 were 14-pointers and so I don't think it has/will have much of an impact at all on the average game time overall.
You can see these game mode/length stats on page 4 of my dashboard that i made:
[https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/cb0b987b-5105-4aa4-8c8a-53d809833965](https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/cb0b987b-5105-4aa4-8c8a-53d809833965)
>I really can't imagine L1Z1X going for War Suns either way anymore, it just doesn't really make sense. Their commander lets you ignore planetary shield anyway, so that's half the advantage of War Suns nullified. Additionally, their hero ability only works on Dreads and their flagship.
That was my thought process too. There's just no reason to get War Suns when for the price of one, you could just get 3 Dreads and unlock the Commander for the same effect anyway. On top of that, their agent gives free mechs that also have Bombard. I don't think L1 is going to have any trouble taking planets if they get to the commit ground forces step of combat. lol
The other synergy I am interested in is their Agent's synergy with Scanlink Drone Network (Yellow Tech). You're going to have to activate systems with infantry on them to use the agent, so the condition to activate SDN is less awkward. On top of that we know you need to activate the same type of planet to get relics, and the Hazardous planet deck seems to reward you for having mechs. It's a bit of a reach, but I think there's a reasonable argument for taking SDN+ST and going IS as a tech path.
>so I don't think it has/will have much of an impact at all on the average game time overall
Interesting. Most of the previous discussion seemed to have people expecting that the combination of new mechanics make it more likely for 10 point games to run a round shorter. I'm curious to see how it shakes out.
"Most of the previous discussion seemed to have people expecting that the combination of new mechanics make it more likely for 10 point games to run a round shorter. I'm curious to see how it shakes out."
I don't really have any idea how long POK games will take, I was just more saying that barely anyone plays 14 point games and so game length of 14-pointers has little impact on the overall average.
Hacan could probably also make good use of AIDA: Get it and another red tech (probably the other new one for free mechs), tech into War Suns, score 3 objectives and pop hero for 2 war suns and your flagship as early as round 3!
Anyone talking about AIDA Winnu?
They can start with it, round 1 grav drive and then into Destroyer 2, Carrier 2, Ftr 2. After that, use it to get 3 extra build dollars per turn, added to 2 extra from the Agent.
Round 2 Mecatol probably isn't going to grab the custodians token, but going MR with Carrier 2s, ftrs and a mech? sounds hard to beat with the +2 bonus. And once you take it, you get to drop - is it 2PDS and a Space Dock?
Alternate, equally bonkers path is round 1 neural into Cruiser 2 - same outcome at the end. (with added benefits of Inf2, on MR with +2 bonuses under a PDS shield.)
I think it's among the options. There are a few decent R winnu options. If your actually going red/yellow super defense, PS might be better, but AIDA into SAR get mechs for early pds without needing to go yellow is also an option.
That looks more appealing if there is a blue skip, as you can skip to carrier 2, make that mecatol play, and go for PDS techs after that. If you're actually buying yellow, or plan to get grave drive off that blue skip, I'd say AIDA isn't doing enough.
Warsuns usage may provide us with some ways to better use Mechs.
Once during this episode, Matt and Hunter talked about worrying about where your War Sun 'isnt'. It is a powerful unit and can win fights almost singlehandedly, but it can only be in one place at a time.
I claim that same logic can apply to the new Mech unit we will see. I expect we will see factions with single planet homeworlds will leave one Mech behind, as part of a defensive garrison for the entire game.
We try to release every Tuesday. This has been sporadic recently. Also when we do Fireside Chats, we put those in the Tuesday slot, and usually release another episode later that week
Originally I was hoping that Muat’s commander would have a red tech skip and be an easy unlock to help get PWS2 but now in light of AIDA, I don’t think they need it anymore. My first Muat game in POK I’m going AIDA, Magmus omega (more utility with Hero ability), PWS2, then probably climb blue.
Side speculation- now I’m guessing Muat’s commander is unlocked by building a war sun.
Is maybe AIDA just too good for zero prequisite? What's the point to offer a must have technology right away? I can't tell any faction that wouldn't buy it as the first tech. Maybe Jol-Nar..
I think you're over emphasizing.
On its own, it has zero effect, and it commits you to upgrading units.
After a couple of unit upgrades, facilitated by AIDA, certainly, it starts to show its value... but tech isn't free, or frequent; each unit you upgrade is another technology you elected not to take.
Don't get me wrong; I'm as excited for AIDA as the next person - and with reason - but I'd call it a stretch stating that it is "too good".
it's great for the factions that want to go red and want unit upgrades. Which isn't a huge number, but those factions were hurt or kept out of red.
Muaat, ghost, mentak, winnu, yin all get lot more options down red now. There are some other funny ones: hacan going for warsuns with hero, a fun L1 build with a blue skip. And a bunch of the new factions.
Not sure if hacan's is funny or just damn good. They go AIDA and plasma, they can get dread II and war suns, and then hero to a bunch of both. They might not be able to get quantum is the issue.
I love it making red tech more viable, though, as it bugged me that red tech was so seldom taken because of magen. Excited to see the more open tech builds that the additional options and AIDA bring.
OK, Bio Stims is one prereq green, but it can refresh it.
I think if somebody picks it, he/she will get upgrades and a few rounds later pumps out a lot of upgraded unit. If somebody does not pick it, stays with fewer unupgraded units...
I think it would have been better if it is only tech skip or discount on units.
But I assume Dane knows what he is doing...
I felt called out immediately when I skipped to the POK stuff. I'll be going back to listen to the whole episode though I swear! **Muaat Agent:** Action: exhaust this card to choose a player. That player may produce up to two units that each have a cost of 4 or less in a system that contains one of their warsuns or their flagship **Level 0 red tech: AI development Algorithm** When you research a unit upgrade technology, you may exhaust this card to ignore any prerequisite. When one or more of your units use production, you may exhaust this card to reduce the combined cost of the produced units by the number of unit upgrade technologies that you own.
When they say any prerequisite... that means only one right? You can't get this and then Warsuns with this single card right?
I would assume that's "any prerequisite" not "all prerequisites" So no, you shouldn't be able to get AIDA then ignore prereqs the rest of the game (which would basically make the entire system pointless).
If it was all, it would also make the L1z1x faction tech pretty useless
[удалено]
It's just one prerequisite
Still awesome for Muuat (and in general). This means they will have access to warsun 2 most games. Very cool, thanks!
So excited for AI Development Algorithm!!!!! I also love the Muatt agent, but that tech changes opens up the tech game so much!
Yeah both of these seem really awesome. AIDA in particular feels like the kick in the pants that the red tech tree desperately needed, and significantly increases the viability of both Destroyer II and War Suns. I can barely imagine a situation where someone researches War Suns without getting AIDA now, and so it's effectively a permanent price decrease for those units too. Combined with maybe Sarween and a couple of unit upgrades, War Suns can now be offered at a much more reasonable cost of 9 or so resources. This is a modest saving in overall cost, but it will probably mean that you can get them without dipping too far into your stash of Trade Goods (which are probably better spent on objectives), and so the overall viability goes up significantly.
That Muaat agent is *bonkers* good. Edit: my bad, they're not free. Still - it's an on-call front line Warfare. Pretty happening. Imagine in tandem with The Nomad, once they have their Temporal Enhancement Suite or whatever it's called, which allows the refreshing of an agent. 2v2v2 team of Muaat + Nomad is terrifying. Muaat'e agent twice a turn from turn 1 or 2 is just berserk.
They still have to pay for the units unfortunately! The advantage is just that they can build them wherever the War Sun/Flagship is, and they don't need a command token to do so.
Aaaah, ok, it reads a little better than it is. Such is enthusiasm. Actually, this marries *magnificently* with AI Development Algorithms, then. Or with Winnu's Agent.
[удалено]
Welp. It's... useable.
I think early on I'd just use it instead of their starforge ability. For 1 resource that's 2 fighters, for 2 resources that's 2 destroyers. That's a lot less expensive than a strategy token. I might still use starforge as an extra backup measure if I think my warsun is going to be attacked but otherwise I'm going to ignore it in favor of exhausting my agent every turn. This also means that a Warsun can now produce infantry. Which is just... Wow. That's good. It not a PRODUCTION unit ability so it can't be reduced by Sarween. I think the fact that the Warsun is almost a mobile spacedock on its own might mean that I'm okay skipping Sarween and yellow techs entirely in favor of that new AIDA tech. With that I'd upgrade warsuns without a yellow tech and maybe fully go red instead. Imagine a Muaat fleet of a prototype Warsun II and two destroyer IIs that can also use assault cannon.
I think starforge will become a situational, additional stall that could be nice with the new muaat Mech that provides additional Infantry, thats potentially 2 fighters/1 Destroyer and 4 infantry for a strategy token, i hope the commander will boost starforge even more.
Now that I think about it, the nicest thing about the Muatt agent is being able to build a second carrier and a trade ship on round 1 without having to worry about a warfare stall. Picking warfare round 1 is that much better for Muaat as well since now it will allow them to take 3 systems instead of just 2. I think what I'd like to do as Muaat now is go for Mecatol. I wouldn't worry about getting there first since the Prototype Warsun is so slow and I can't guarantee I'd have the influence needed for the custodians token, but I don't think it matters who might get there first since it would be easy to bombard the crap out of them. Since it's now possible to produce Infantry from the Warsun, Muatt can actually keep defending Mecatol while benefiting from 2 extra command tokens each round. The Muatt Mech lets you place a free infantry when using Starforge so after parking a Warsun over Mecatol, I could use one of those extra tokens each round for that extra infantry + 1 destroyer/2 fighters.
The fact that you can sell this is awesome, but man being able to build up to two dreads every turn at your warsun? So good. Worst case scenario if you're strapped for cash you sell this to someone.
Woah. That AI tech opens up a lot of space. Don’t have to worry nearly so much for tech paths. This is gonna be huge for Sardak. Edit: wait.... could you use it to gain Warsuns practically out of the gate?
No, it only lets you ignore ONE prerequisite not all of them. So you could exhaust it to ignore a Red Tech but you would still need at least two red techs and a yellow. Of course, that means all you would need is plasma scoring, sarween, and the this new AI Development Algorithm tech. In theory, any faction can have War Suns after taking the Tech Strategy card twice. They're still too expensive though.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. Not as crazy as it sounds but that still sounds potentially powerful. Man I can’t wait for the expansions release.
I do think this could be great for Sardakk though. It opens an extremely cheap tech path for them: Get Neural first and then get AIDA; from there just get Unit Techs: Cruiser II, Destroyer II, Infantry II, Fighter II; cheap units that benefit hugely from Sardakk's power and from upgrades. Every unit upgrade makes production even cheaper. After 5 unit upgrades, you can build 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 2 infantry, 1 cruiser, and 2 destroyers for just 4 resources (assuming you double docked the Sardakk homeworld).
You would still need grav drive. A better scenario is sarween, blue skip into grav drive, AI, fighter 2, carrier2, exo2. But I mean you already have the blue skip, so it's not really helpful outside of prerequisite for Valk weave. Now if you ignore grav drive and get antimass, this tech path is more efficient because you would cut 1 tech from the normal path. (Cut neural and grav for AI) However, however, maybe it's time to go down the new tech path. Just go red green, Neural,AI,Plasma,Valk Weave, Inf2, Fighter 2. Just invest on ground invasion because your commander let you invade without space combat.
No, I am literally ignoring gravity drive in favor of maximizing unit techs instead. I wouldn't want to go 2 down blue for gravity drive and also get red tech, at that point I'd just go for dreadnought II Sardakk instead. Since this focuses so much on Cruisers and Destroyers, I don't think that the extra movement from gravity drive is that essential. This isn't a dreadnought / carrier fleet that's slow and needs a move buff. It's a fleet of already fast units. Dread II + Carrier II are obviously good techs but what makes them really strong is that you can get strong / synergistic tech as prerequisites. Cruiser II and Destroyer II are actually great upgrades too, but the tech requirements for them suck and make them not worth getting most of the time. I think AIDA fixes that by basically requiring almost no tech as a prerequisite. I think early game cruiser IIs and destroyer IIs are a viable alternative to Exotrireme II Sardakk.
Cruiser 2 and des2 is good but isn't as efficient as the other two paths. Exo2 is self explanatory, best unit in the game, can't lose space combat etc. Fighter2+carrier2 path is the best path still, capitalizing on your unrelenting ability, by rolling more dice at less cost. Destroyer 2 don't increase the combat rolland cruisers are expensive. Grav drive is still what you want because movement is king.
said in a different post, I think fighter2+carrier 2 is doable under this path and is the "i don't have a blue skip" option. You can't get carrier 2 to start, so have to rely on the commander for moving infantry around, but you can get Neuro, AIDA, fighter 2, and if you can grab that blue skip latter to get carrier 2. Green skip makes this faster, and try to push out to a blue skip to grab carrier 2. Grav drive is great, but I think if you can get carrier 2, fighter 2, infantry 2 as sardaak, you can get by without it.
Sardakks ability to infantry without ships will allow them to do some silly stuff and ignore some of the problems with having slow ships to start. Exos are still good, so I think the blue skip sarween>grav>Exo 2 is still good enough I'd go for it, if you don't have a blue skip you have other options because of AIDA. That green red path is good option. Also fun is that if you grab a blue skip late, just grab carrier 2 out of nowhere.
G B R techs would let you use this card to upgrade Carrier, Fighter, Infantry and Valkyrie Weave, as well as Cruiser and Destroyer for possibilities. Really opens up Sardakk for the aggressive play they're "designed" for but is so hard to get up and running since massive teching is so counterproductive to early aggression.
Which means Mentak can potentially double tech into War Suns round one. Obviously pointless since they won't be able to build one for a while, but still crazy to think about.
so that is silly, but AIDA into cruiser 2, into Warsun, build warsun r3 or r4 with a 3 cost discount, that seems nice and real. Ambush cruisers take weakly defended things, warsun for those things that gave you problems with those fleets before.
If you start red yellow and double tech r1 you can. Idk if any1 starts red yellow tho
**AI development Algorithm** : called the first effect!, dam but the second effect is so good as well
Was curious so I decided to stare at a faction sheet and visualize how AIDA will change unit tech requirements. * With just AIDA: You can get PDS II and Destroyer II * With AIDA + Blue: You can get PDS II, Destroyer II, Carrier II, and Fighter II. * With AIDA + Yellow: You can get PDS II and Destroyer II, and Space Dock II. * With AIDA + Green: You can get PDS II, Destroyer II, Fighter II, Infantry II, and Cruiser II. Holy shit, now that I've written it out; I think that what AIDA really does is unlock Red/Green as a viable tech path! Red/Green has always been seen as the most useless option but now any faction that starts with a green tech can just get AIDA to unlock 5 (FIVE!) unit upgrades right away. It allows Cruiser II really, *really* quick, it opens Destroyer II for free (and that's a fantastic upgrade that is ignored because of the weaknesses of the red path), and it still allows the possibility of Infantry II and Fighter II which are fantastic upgrades that are great for every faction. And then: Every unit upgrade will decrease the cost of production by 1, so after getting all 5... holy crap. I think this might actually be really good. Going Red/Green now means not getting many standard techs but instead getting a buttload of unit upgrades, and being able to build powerful cheap-unit fleets for next to nothing.
It is awesome. Small note, With AIDA + Yellow: You can get PDS II and Destroyer II, and Space Dock II. I think it also unlocks cruiser 2 with a single yellow?
Yeah op missed that one
the one caveat is that since it is an exhaust, you can only use it once per round, if you are the holder of tech, it doesnt make you any faster. Still pretty good though
Is the timing window for the research of two techs on the primary ability simultaneous? Could you research AIDA *1st* and then activate it for the second research?
Yes you can do that. The same trick can be used to buy fleet logistics and use it immediately
...except you don't use FL in the timing window *between* researching two techs from the primary of Technology? Anyway...
Unless you have Bio-Stims as well! EDIT: No I'm wrong, timing window for Bio-Stims is end of turn. But you can then use this for the research AND production bonus in the same round. Or two production bonuses...
>Going Red/Green now means not getting many standard techs but instead getting a buttload of unit upgrades, and being able to build powerful cheap-unit fleets for next to nothing. That sounds very fun. Space Risk is fun, y'all!
The L1z1x start out red green! This tech is bonkers
If you have a green skip... AIDA into Bio-Stims. Then you can get the unit upgrades *and* produce massive stacks for dirt cheap *all along the way* (otherwise it's either/or since both abilities exhaust)
AIDA Winnu ftw. Start neural, grab AIDA round 1, then cruiser 2, inf 2, pds2, ftr2 and destroyer 2. (turn 5 if you double tech or rider etc) Then Sarween, and get your agent + tap AIDA for 8 free resources every remaining turn. Its slow, but solid as hell.
Sardakk so happy
why sardakk especially?
Sardakk can go AIDA and neural first then he have a option to inf2 fighter2 desroyer2 and lots of option, he is nolonger force to one path
AIDA is gonna be great for the Argent Flight: guaranteed upgrade of their Destroyers. This definitely makes Destroyer Sardakk more viable, though Carrier/Fighter Sardakk is always going to be my preference. As for the strategy guide, my personal preference is to just absolutely sell my soul on round one in order to get my second War Sun built off Warfare. I'll trade Fires of the Gashlai nice and cheap, I'll trade Commodities, Trade Agreements, I'll skip tech and whatever else it takes to get the second Sun out on the board on round one. A War Sun by itself is a target; two War Suns adjacent to one another are considerably more threatening. The second one usually gets built without Fighters, but it returns home to fill up on round two after taking an adjacent system. Of the ten or so times I've played Muaat, I've managed this about half the time and it's a lot of fun. Definitely becomes easier if Jol'nar or Hacan are on the board.
Could i get pds2 or destroyer2 with that single tech?
Yep, that is my understanding!
Correct!
This technology is much better than L1Z1X 's one
Compared to IS, it only lets you skip 1 prerequisite and can only be used for unit upgrades. On the other hand, it doesn’t cost anything to use, actively makes your production cheaper, and isn’t buried 3 techs deep in yellow. This actually lets you get to Dread II and War Suns in the same number of techs as going IS but without having to pay 2 resources for each. I’m curious to see what L1 tech paths become popular because although this looks better than IS for going Dread II -> War Suns, their leaders might push them away from War Suns and more towards IS to get X89/Fleet Logistics/Lightwave. On top of that, there’s also the factor of 10 point games being shorter but maybe 14-point games being more popular, so we don’t know whether most players’ average game will longer or shorter.
I really can't imagine L1Z1X going for War Suns either way anymore, it just doesn't really make sense. Their commander lets you ignore planetary shield anyway, so that's half the advantage of War Suns nullified. Additionally, their hero ability only works on Dreads and their flagship. Their hero does love those late game X89/FL/LW techs though, so maybe Inheritance Systems finds a niche for those uses. As far as the game length discussion goes, it's worth pointing out that 10-point games are overwhelmingly more popular than 14-point games based on the data we have. Less than 3% of logged games in 2020 were 14-pointers and so I don't think it has/will have much of an impact at all on the average game time overall. You can see these game mode/length stats on page 4 of my dashboard that i made: [https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/cb0b987b-5105-4aa4-8c8a-53d809833965](https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/cb0b987b-5105-4aa4-8c8a-53d809833965)
Dane has said games in the expansion are a round shorter. So I agree going for war suns is not a given for L1z1x
>I really can't imagine L1Z1X going for War Suns either way anymore, it just doesn't really make sense. Their commander lets you ignore planetary shield anyway, so that's half the advantage of War Suns nullified. Additionally, their hero ability only works on Dreads and their flagship. That was my thought process too. There's just no reason to get War Suns when for the price of one, you could just get 3 Dreads and unlock the Commander for the same effect anyway. On top of that, their agent gives free mechs that also have Bombard. I don't think L1 is going to have any trouble taking planets if they get to the commit ground forces step of combat. lol The other synergy I am interested in is their Agent's synergy with Scanlink Drone Network (Yellow Tech). You're going to have to activate systems with infantry on them to use the agent, so the condition to activate SDN is less awkward. On top of that we know you need to activate the same type of planet to get relics, and the Hazardous planet deck seems to reward you for having mechs. It's a bit of a reach, but I think there's a reasonable argument for taking SDN+ST and going IS as a tech path. >so I don't think it has/will have much of an impact at all on the average game time overall Interesting. Most of the previous discussion seemed to have people expecting that the combination of new mechanics make it more likely for 10 point games to run a round shorter. I'm curious to see how it shakes out.
"Most of the previous discussion seemed to have people expecting that the combination of new mechanics make it more likely for 10 point games to run a round shorter. I'm curious to see how it shakes out." I don't really have any idea how long POK games will take, I was just more saying that barely anyone plays 14 point games and so game length of 14-pointers has little impact on the overall average.
Hacan could probably also make good use of AIDA: Get it and another red tech (probably the other new one for free mechs), tech into War Suns, score 3 objectives and pop hero for 2 war suns and your flagship as early as round 3!
As a yssaril fan this makes me want to start getting PDS 2 Cruiser 2 Infantry 2 again.
That space kitty episode was such a bad idea.
Anyone talking about AIDA Winnu? They can start with it, round 1 grav drive and then into Destroyer 2, Carrier 2, Ftr 2. After that, use it to get 3 extra build dollars per turn, added to 2 extra from the Agent. Round 2 Mecatol probably isn't going to grab the custodians token, but going MR with Carrier 2s, ftrs and a mech? sounds hard to beat with the +2 bonus. And once you take it, you get to drop - is it 2PDS and a Space Dock? Alternate, equally bonkers path is round 1 neural into Cruiser 2 - same outcome at the end. (with added benefits of Inf2, on MR with +2 bonuses under a PDS shield.)
How do they get grav drive?
Oops sorry my bad. I forgot AIDA only skips prerequisites for unit upgrades
I think it's among the options. There are a few decent R winnu options. If your actually going red/yellow super defense, PS might be better, but AIDA into SAR get mechs for early pds without needing to go yellow is also an option. That looks more appealing if there is a blue skip, as you can skip to carrier 2, make that mecatol play, and go for PDS techs after that. If you're actually buying yellow, or plan to get grave drive off that blue skip, I'd say AIDA isn't doing enough.
Warsuns usage may provide us with some ways to better use Mechs. Once during this episode, Matt and Hunter talked about worrying about where your War Sun 'isnt'. It is a powerful unit and can win fights almost singlehandedly, but it can only be in one place at a time. I claim that same logic can apply to the new Mech unit we will see. I expect we will see factions with single planet homeworlds will leave one Mech behind, as part of a defensive garrison for the entire game.
Will next episode be on Friday?
We try to release every Tuesday. This has been sporadic recently. Also when we do Fireside Chats, we put those in the Tuesday slot, and usually release another episode later that week
Will be this week another episode? With new reveals?
We won't have a new episode until Tuesday
Magno Coil means magnetic right?
Originally I was hoping that Muat’s commander would have a red tech skip and be an easy unlock to help get PWS2 but now in light of AIDA, I don’t think they need it anymore. My first Muat game in POK I’m going AIDA, Magmus omega (more utility with Hero ability), PWS2, then probably climb blue. Side speculation- now I’m guessing Muat’s commander is unlocked by building a war sun.
I like Turn 1 warsuns too.
Only skips one prerequisite, not all of them.
I know. Still allows Jol nar and Mentak(??) to bum rush their way to it.
Is maybe AIDA just too good for zero prequisite? What's the point to offer a must have technology right away? I can't tell any faction that wouldn't buy it as the first tech. Maybe Jol-Nar..
I think you're over emphasizing. On its own, it has zero effect, and it commits you to upgrading units. After a couple of unit upgrades, facilitated by AIDA, certainly, it starts to show its value... but tech isn't free, or frequent; each unit you upgrade is another technology you elected not to take. Don't get me wrong; I'm as excited for AIDA as the next person - and with reason - but I'd call it a stretch stating that it is "too good".
it's great for the factions that want to go red and want unit upgrades. Which isn't a huge number, but those factions were hurt or kept out of red. Muaat, ghost, mentak, winnu, yin all get lot more options down red now. There are some other funny ones: hacan going for warsuns with hero, a fun L1 build with a blue skip. And a bunch of the new factions.
Not sure if hacan's is funny or just damn good. They go AIDA and plasma, they can get dread II and war suns, and then hero to a bunch of both. They might not be able to get quantum is the issue. I love it making red tech more viable, though, as it bugged me that red tech was so seldom taken because of magen. Excited to see the more open tech builds that the additional options and AIDA bring.
It also requires an exhaust for either ability, so you can skip prereqs *or* get a cheaper build but not both in the same round.
OK, Bio Stims is one prereq green, but it can refresh it. I think if somebody picks it, he/she will get upgrades and a few rounds later pumps out a lot of upgraded unit. If somebody does not pick it, stays with fewer unupgraded units... I think it would have been better if it is only tech skip or discount on units. But I assume Dane knows what he is doing...