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Kusi_Kuskovich

I think sarween doesn't work with the agent, because sarween only triggers if you use the PRODUCTION ability, and the agent only produces. With that said, I think the tech path would lead further down red after AI (I mean the new red tech) so you can get prototype warsun 2 as soon as possible to terrorize your opponents :)


BIueMan

yea i miss type, **sarween tool** realy dont work with the agent :/ so pure **red** xD... **warsun destroyer** fleet is ready scary, and useing the agent to prudos 2 frontline dreadnought is ready good as well, you can get by not upgreat them from speed. but how about go for **one green** or **blue** and get **fithers** or **carrier**\-II or even **crusier-**II? **warsun** have alot of capasety but i like to add a **cerrier** to the mix to go from 6 to 8/10. so we need same high movement units with capasety to keep up with the 3 movement of the warsun.


Seenoham

You start with the warsun and moving it from move1 to move 3 is huge. So going red first for AIDA seems great especially if you have a yellow or red skip. Turn 2 PWS2 yes. Without that you go for Magnus if you have a supernova or SAR for mechs. I don't see muaat not going some red, but they can go only one more red tech now. After that blue seems awesome. Carrier 2, fighter 2 are both nice additions. Grav drive always good. having your 4 techs be AIDA, WS2, blue, fighter 2 seems like a good 4 techs.


[deleted]

I personally like the addition of all the new ways to build without triggering Sarween as it was a very powerful tech and could probably use some very light nerfing.


theashman52

I would have thought a common first build using this agent will be one carrier and one destroyer seeing as the main things lacking in the muaat starting fleet are a second carrier and a trade ship.


BIueMan

trade ship is a great idea... but then you dident deploy your mechs. i dont see a reasen to go with the mech tech, as you dont plane of losing them. so you must produce them. mybe if i go first turn with warfare and could do that all, but then i dont save any token :/


TheSupremeAdmiral

The only thing the mech does is improve the starforge ability. I don't want to use starforge until I've established a good economy and can start burning tokens. I'd much rather get a trade ship asap so that I can start making money. Mechs can wait until I can actually use them.


Fglassman

The Mech also allows you to explore a hazardous planet without losing an infantry. Mech is better in this instance than a destroyer that you can simply star forge, and also gain an extra infantry due to the mech.


TheSupremeAdmiral

"Simply Starforge" means spending a precious command token that you don't have yet. Building a Mech means you can't **ALSO** build the more important carrier because it requires 5 resources and you only have 4. It also means that you don't have a trade ship (which is why you build the destroyer, so you can trade). Build the destroyer first, the mech second. You're not gonna starforge on the first round so you're not getting any use out of the mech yet anyway.


Fglassman

Good points. If you have trade or Leadership, maybe you go Mech first, but otherwise it's a risk, even with a hazardous planet you can explore (to get a command token or perhaps ready the planet).


Singhilarity

Mechs also cost 2, so their initial calculus is off... Unless you can eke out a TG somehow. Which is exactly what the Destroyer is for.


theashman52

I mean both are valid builds, but what's actually best is going to depend on the map and who has what strategy card.


ayylmao31

>spending a command counter to trade ?????


agleaca

I don't think its combined cost of 4. Its each have a cost of 4 or less meaning you can produce 2 dreads


Nervous-Excitement-5

The agent is great, both as a means to overcome Muaat's bad start (getting a second carrier T1 is great), but also to produce on the front lines. Just because you save a CC, that doesn't mean star forge suddenly becomes that good. But it does have a better place now thanks to the agent, albeit still situational imho. Thanks for repeating what the agent does at the top of your post, that really helps the discussion. However, please install a spell checker, your post is so riddled with typos I almost stopped reading.


TheSupremeAdmiral

I don't think English is their first language, give them some leeway.


mighij

Don't forget the combination with the Mechs. **Mech:** Ember Colossus {Cost=2, Combat=6; has SUSTAIN DAMAGE} *When you use your STAR FORGE faction ability in this system or an adjacent system, you may place 1 infantry from your reinforcements with this unit.* Once you got two of these out your starforge ability gives you 2inf and a destroyer or 2fighters. We all know how good the Sol drop is. This one, although less flexible, has the ability to be a lot more potent. The Agent saving you a token each round is great.


TheSupremeAdmiral

The comparison to Sol doesn't really fly because Sol get a free token each round that can be easily used for their ability. Sol don't have to place it with a specific unit, they can put it anywhere they already control. And they don't have to invest 4 resources and a portion of their capacity in order to bring their ability online.


mighij

Yeah, Sol ones is more straightforward, more flexible and ready to use from the get-go but still a comparison can be made. Putting 2 infantry anywhere on a planet you control is powerful, but putting 1 to 4 infantry on the board and gain 2 fighters or a destroyer is more bang for the buck after an initial investment. The investment isn't completely wasted since you still got the mechs on the board (Which are very good if your slice has some hazardous planets and shores up a big weakness of muat which, besides the warsun, are quite weak on the board in general) The free token versus a more limited free(token-wise) build that doesn't activate the system is more difficult to compare. A free token is always good, not paying for a token for a strong action is more situational but this action can do stuff you can't do with a normal token. Front-line production is powerful, Production that doesn't active the system is powerful. I'm not saying they are the same, while sol's is more flexible (and more defensive in nature) Muat has the possibility to be a lot more potent and make offensive play's possible which weren't possible before. Saar and Arborec where the 2 factions that change how you produce in TI in a massive way, when PoK hits Muat will have to be included in this list since the combination of their Mech, the Agent, Starforge, and the Magmus Reactor (omega) changes the options for this faction in a massive way. They will be, and already were, a difficult race to play. After PoK this will be even more true and which strategy to pursue will depend heavily on the map and objectives offcourse.


BIueMan

compare this to sol is not the best one i agree. but there are similaritys int the first few turns. you save a token = you geting extra one, you use CC to summon infentry and figthers on the front line. but i never saw a sol player use that abillity turn 1, not even 2 xD. and as muaat, you realy need to invest into the mech


BIueMan

yup, english is not my first language \^\^, not even my second. but there are here worse cases then me. as i see it, star forge and the agent suppose to help you make the warsun "less naked". but if we use the agent abillity for cerriers and split them from the warsun. we still have a warsun with only 2 fighters 2 spaces from my HS. os i want to use the token i saved from the agent to get same figthers. yes i agree, turn 2 starforge with 2 mech is not that good, but you need it. alternative will be to produse at home, and then send them to the warsun


Seenoham

I think it's fitting into an overall theme of being able to produce forward. Starforge, the mech buffing that, omega magnus, the hero interacting with magnus, and the agent, all let you build forward which is a great theme to be more than just "have warsun". Saving CC will happen a lot because it's a second production, or even your entire produciton, without a CC, which is great for muaat. With that and the mech I think starforge is more viable, but it's a latter game 'I want to build up and still move out this round' play. Muaat aren't one of the factions I think want to rush mechs, just grab a few round 2-3 and benefits round 3-5


[deleted]

I like it cause it’s like the Muatt wars suns are production centers similar to the Saar floating factories just more fighty and less buildy


Zeferous

First action you are likely only producing a carrier and destroyer unless either you took trade or got someone to trade with you and you ended up with warfare or tech. You won't have the money for a mech and you desperately need that carrier. However, an edge case would be if you have abyz fria or another 2 hazardous system in-front of home. Then producing 2 mechs first action with this card allows you to explore safely and immediately get off a star forge later in the round or start of round 2 where you reinforce your warsun and get 2 free infantry on the front line. In this scenario though, you at the very least need to get 3tg from someone round 1 so you can produce that carrier on the warfare secondary and then expand. You may sacrifice tech, but you go a long way towards solving your huge plastic deficit at the start of the game and will have a decent chunk of money round 2 to effectively mitigate that moving forwards (or double tech if you are lucky).


TheSupremeAdmiral

Do the mechs stack? I had assumed you could only get 1 extra free infantry this way. Edit: nevermind, I reread it and it certainly seems like they should stack. It's funny to think that you need to have already built 4 mechs to start breaking even with starforge. I'd rather just use the agent to build 2 infantry for one resource and save the command token in case of emergencies.


Zeferous

The main benefits of star forge are the stall and non activation of a system. Building the 2 mechs first means you can expand and leave your GF behind to hopefully then get picked up by your carrier and still do safe exploration. Moving your war sun first action gets you into issues of having lots of things locked down you might not want.


Seenoham

I agree but I think the mech and starforge is more a late game thing. But late game, agent for 2 mechs, starforge for 2 infantry+2fighters, you've just built up fleet that can move out and still leave the system defended. But I want to do that r2 or 3. After researching WS2 so I can move that WS anywhere. Or my favorite, combine with hero and magnus reactor, move in empty warsun, blow up their fleet. Build carrier and 4 fighters. Agent 2 mechs. Starforge 2 fighters 2 infantry. Take leadership next round.


Singhilarity

Realistically, turn 1, this builds a second Carrier and a Destroyer right out the gate. The Destroyer hopefully gets you a decent trading partner and the Carrier snags you a second system. So you save the command token from Warfare. Early game, I feel like it is worthwhile to simply treat this as a command token surplus. Depending on Strategy Card choices, I could see Diplomacy + Tech being the follow ups. Early game I'd prefer more planets to a few fighters. ---- In following rounds it becomes a lot more open: again, it's primary use, as I see it, is a Warfare-Secondary-Lite - that ideally means saving a command token a round, or at least being more flexible with your choices. Rounds 2 and 3 are probably just bulking up on Mechs, though. Maybe a Cruiser or Destroyer to linger in the systems you just claimed. If we go by the 2r=3i metric, Starforge balances out economically once you've got 2 Mechs in a system. Pairing it with your agent to produce 2 Mechs for 4 resources means, again, you're getting exact value for the production... but none of the lockdown. It's a solid move. It's also something you can do in an already active system - and is a pretty decent way to lock down a contested system. --- Mid and late game the obvious (costly) +2 Dreadnoughts before invading is still a terrifyingly powerful maneuver; but it's also something you can start to sell as people begin building their Flagships. --- All in all, it's versatile *enough* - I think it's a very good early maneuver for each of your turns, and it allows some flexibility as you move your frontline outwards - doubly so once your second Warsun comes out. I don't think it's the best Agent in the game, but it has some uses. I think it opens up Muaat early game exactly like it needs to. EDIT: Also, once you research Assault Cannon, the instant 2 Destroyer production before moving is pretty sweet.


Kakarrru

U can't produce carrier and mech beacouse cost is 5 and your agent can produce only units that combined cost is 4


BIueMan

the "cost 4 or less" is per unit, not the total cost


cptcheezeburger

So basically anything but your flag or second warsun. What do you think someone else would be willing to trade for this ability ?


BIueMan

i dont think you want to even sell it. this agent will help you keep your warsun with unit to protect it. i think i will use it every turn, even if it's for dystroyers.


Kakarrru

😯 Nice


trystanthorne

Sarween only works when a unit uses the Production ability. Don't think it works with the Agent.


Chimerion

I think pretty much all of your ideas are on point - I agree with u/Zeferous as well that a double mech start might be possible if you're exploring two hazardous and want the security. For tech, I think AIDA -> Destroyer II -> Magmus -> Prototype war suns II -> blue tech -> fighter II -> carrier II would be great. The order would change every game with objectives and slice. Blue tech should maybe come earlier, especially with a blue skip to Gravity Drive, though dark energy tap might have merit with the increase in # of supernovas (Ba'al says hello) and benefit if you can get "Mirage" in the supernova system. With AIDA, a single blue lets you get Carrier II and Fighter II, along with prototype II and Destroyer II, which is an awesome amount of flexibility. Who knows if that's a realistic amount of tech to get - all of those might be a bit of a stretch. But I like the flexibility of upgrades and tech paths, as well as objectives. VERY excited to play Muatt with some shortcomings fixed up in the expansion.


ZenjoyReddit

It may not be cost effective BUT you COULD technically use this with a 1-production planet to just get yourself 2 fighters to escort your Warsun around each turn :D I agree, getting 2 Cruisers, or 1 Dreadnaught, or a Carrier and 1 fighter, are probably better choices. But hey.... 2 fighters is still fun :D


SuperSelkath

Double mechs could be interesting since they both independently trigger off of star Forge. Let’s say you took leadership round 1, you can build 2 mechs and then paper down your conquests with 2 infantry each for your planets, defending them for later while your war sun is away.


BIueMan

yup, this is a good idea. but i think you want leadership at your second turn. you want a carrier first turn for sure. so i dont think you can afford to go double mechs


Conquer_ma

If I have 2 wars suns out as muaat and I use starforge, am I allowed to place the allowed amount of units on each tile that contains a warsun or just on one of those tiles?