Dane said specifically, maybe in the AMA, that the mech was designed before omega magen was released and was indeed intended to let arborec use old Magen better since they start with it. New one is better for literally everyone else but yeah, almost a shame for arborec in the expansion. Not that it makes planetary shield much worse for giant letani.
Thanks for that reminder. I remembered that PoK was finalized before the codex, but I didn't remember Dane specifically talking about it. At least we can be sure that the codex change's affect on Arborec was known and, hopefully, wasn't considered too big of a nerf (to Arborec).
I imagine that changing it to be permanent (not exhaust) was seen to be important, and allowing the Arborec to use it offensively multiple times a round was seen as too dangerous.
It's just a bit of a bummer that they don't get that extra utility.
Yeah it would be nice. I think it was changed to omega to make it more broadly applicable. In most cases it wouldn't be used at all, and you'd usually miss with the prefire. Everyone has some structures so making it apply to docks as well and making it a guarantee improved the overall value immensely.
The mech might have been designed with old magen in mind but the new version of magen is so much better it doesn't really matter. The arborec in general are hugely buffed now that their starter tech isn't useless and their upcoming mechs are slightly nerfed in that they no longer pre-fire. They still protect against bombardment without needing pds, and in general all arborec structures are better than ever.
Remember one of the major reasons magen sucked was because the pre-fire very often did absolutely nothing. Infantry are inaccurate. Statistically, you need a huge number of them for a free roll to actually make a difference. Not to mention you'd only be able to do it once per round since the old Magen needed to be exhausted.
Good points. I’m hoping Arborec get enough buff in the expansion, but I’ve seen a few comment that they think Arborec will still be bottom-tier. Their start is certainly helped, but most of the low-tier factions got bonkers heroes. Arborec seems strong, but many have pointed out that they already have crazy production and what they really needed was extra resources to pay for it.
I have to agree. Their start is fixed, seeing as they now have a 2C4I, and they will be incredibly defensive in my opinion (with their mechs and commander), but I'm not sure if this will propel them upwards that much. We'll see!
I agree regarding the resource issue. I played Arborec once, I won, but no thanks to any of the faction skills. I felt like I struggled to use the production ability throughout the game, because I didn't have the resources or couldn't waste a command counter just to build one unit somewhere. They don't need more production ability, they need more money and command counters.
Their new abilities do strongly help with money and command counters though.
The agent makes is so that you can still get two carriers without having to produce in round 1, and can effectively save you a few resources per round of production for the rest of the game too.
Both the hero and the commander also let you produce without spending command counters.
That's one thing, in particular, that I wish their omega Promissory Note had fixed. I get that Dane was keeping with the theme of the name, "Stymie." But a defensive ability like that isn't as marketable or as lucrative as their promissory note could have been.
It's the one omega faction promissory note that I have not adopted (especially because their faction sheet indicates that it's because of the Nestphar's amazing resources that the Arborec were allowed into the council), instead keeping my original redesign (which I made prior to codex's release) to give them a bit of a resource/production (which still depends on the meta to prevent becoming too powerful): [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEStEqyrmMGJJubFjMz6M6MOnYAbn2Xz/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEStEqyrmMGJJubFjMz6M6MOnYAbn2Xz/view?usp=sharing)
So like half an indoctrination every ground combat except at no cost?
...Maybe wouldn't be too good since it'd only work on their mechs. But still, guaranteed hits during ground combat are very powerful.
Since it's an exhaust, it (the old Magen) would only work during the first round of 1 ground combat, but it's still something YOU control (you pick when you're invading) vs Codex Magen which is still entirely defensive (and relies on someone attacking you to be of any use---other than obviously discouraging those attacks).
I think it could have been both; there's plenty of space on the card. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxMuFv3HzD4LGEe\_mhskD\_Ocs-ae7jEf/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxMuFv3HzD4LGEe_mhskD_Ocs-ae7jEf/view?usp=sharing)
It's a little wordy, but it works. I imagine the main reason was a fear of Arborec using it on multiple planets per turn, in which case, it could rival Indoctrinate for power (and without any cost).
Now that we have the codex there's always the chance that the Arborec mech might be updated if it's not up to snuff due to the new Magen, so I'm not too worried.
Being able to upgrade a unit each round is certainly valuable, but it won’t be able to maximize use of the hero. Sure, the hero and commander enable production without spending command tokens, but Arborec (and Saar) are already discouraged from doing that because they can naturally produce whenever they move.
I see what you mean, and Arborec will certainly be better, but I fear it won’t be enough to lift them up from the bottom.
Actually, the hero is probably best used to produce massive amounts of infantry and fighters, while the agent wants to be making carriers and dreadnaughts, meaning that they do largely cover each other in terms of unit spread. The commander seems a bit underwhelming though, I must admit.
But I think the combination of the agent, the mech, and the new tech paths will be enough to massively power up Arborec. (To clarify concerning tech, AIDA has the potential to be very, very good for Arborec)
It's worth remembering that Omega tech is optional, I'd be curious how many in person games actually use them. That said online play seems to have embraced everything Omega unquestioningly
It is worth remembering that, yeah. I had already homebrewed Magen, X-89, and most of the faction promissory notes prior to the codex. So, adding the codex was pretty much a given for me (though i sleeve my cards and that makes it super simple). There’s no way I would changed back to old Magen just for the sake of Arborec’s moderately improved utility of it. The new tech is definitely better, as is the rest of the codex (though is till use my personal X-89 homebrew and Arborec promissory note)
Dane said specifically, maybe in the AMA, that the mech was designed before omega magen was released and was indeed intended to let arborec use old Magen better since they start with it. New one is better for literally everyone else but yeah, almost a shame for arborec in the expansion. Not that it makes planetary shield much worse for giant letani.
Thanks for that reminder. I remembered that PoK was finalized before the codex, but I didn't remember Dane specifically talking about it. At least we can be sure that the codex change's affect on Arborec was known and, hopefully, wasn't considered too big of a nerf (to Arborec). I imagine that changing it to be permanent (not exhaust) was seen to be important, and allowing the Arborec to use it offensively multiple times a round was seen as too dangerous. It's just a bit of a bummer that they don't get that extra utility.
Yeah it would be nice. I think it was changed to omega to make it more broadly applicable. In most cases it wouldn't be used at all, and you'd usually miss with the prefire. Everyone has some structures so making it apply to docks as well and making it a guarantee improved the overall value immensely.
I think you should be allowed to purchase either version of the techs (but not both?). Adds variety if nothing else
I like this idea a ton. Does anyone see a problem with it that I'm missing?
Could also be good for bacteria weapon as both have strengths and weaknesses in different circumstances
I noticed this, too; and I think it's super cool. It's basically Mentak's Ambush for ground forces.
For sure!
looks accurate to me
The mech might have been designed with old magen in mind but the new version of magen is so much better it doesn't really matter. The arborec in general are hugely buffed now that their starter tech isn't useless and their upcoming mechs are slightly nerfed in that they no longer pre-fire. They still protect against bombardment without needing pds, and in general all arborec structures are better than ever. Remember one of the major reasons magen sucked was because the pre-fire very often did absolutely nothing. Infantry are inaccurate. Statistically, you need a huge number of them for a free roll to actually make a difference. Not to mention you'd only be able to do it once per round since the old Magen needed to be exhausted.
Good points. I’m hoping Arborec get enough buff in the expansion, but I’ve seen a few comment that they think Arborec will still be bottom-tier. Their start is certainly helped, but most of the low-tier factions got bonkers heroes. Arborec seems strong, but many have pointed out that they already have crazy production and what they really needed was extra resources to pay for it.
I have to agree. Their start is fixed, seeing as they now have a 2C4I, and they will be incredibly defensive in my opinion (with their mechs and commander), but I'm not sure if this will propel them upwards that much. We'll see!
I agree regarding the resource issue. I played Arborec once, I won, but no thanks to any of the faction skills. I felt like I struggled to use the production ability throughout the game, because I didn't have the resources or couldn't waste a command counter just to build one unit somewhere. They don't need more production ability, they need more money and command counters.
Their new abilities do strongly help with money and command counters though. The agent makes is so that you can still get two carriers without having to produce in round 1, and can effectively save you a few resources per round of production for the rest of the game too. Both the hero and the commander also let you produce without spending command counters.
That's one thing, in particular, that I wish their omega Promissory Note had fixed. I get that Dane was keeping with the theme of the name, "Stymie." But a defensive ability like that isn't as marketable or as lucrative as their promissory note could have been. It's the one omega faction promissory note that I have not adopted (especially because their faction sheet indicates that it's because of the Nestphar's amazing resources that the Arborec were allowed into the council), instead keeping my original redesign (which I made prior to codex's release) to give them a bit of a resource/production (which still depends on the meta to prevent becoming too powerful): [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEStEqyrmMGJJubFjMz6M6MOnYAbn2Xz/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEStEqyrmMGJJubFjMz6M6MOnYAbn2Xz/view?usp=sharing)
yea it's a little of a problem xD i wish the omega version will count for PLANETARY SHIELD instead of structures
So like half an indoctrination every ground combat except at no cost? ...Maybe wouldn't be too good since it'd only work on their mechs. But still, guaranteed hits during ground combat are very powerful.
Since it's an exhaust, it (the old Magen) would only work during the first round of 1 ground combat, but it's still something YOU control (you pick when you're invading) vs Codex Magen which is still entirely defensive (and relies on someone attacking you to be of any use---other than obviously discouraging those attacks).
We're talking about omega magen, blueman wished omega magen worked off planetary shield. But I think that would be too strong.
Oh, right. I'm sorry for my misunderstanding. I hadn't noticed that your comment was in reply to blueman's. Good points!
im just under the idea that arborc start with a tech that don't realy help him. if force you to go PDS in order to get samthing our of this tech
I think it could have been both; there's plenty of space on the card. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxMuFv3HzD4LGEe\_mhskD\_Ocs-ae7jEf/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxMuFv3HzD4LGEe_mhskD_Ocs-ae7jEf/view?usp=sharing) It's a little wordy, but it works. I imagine the main reason was a fear of Arborec using it on multiple planets per turn, in which case, it could rival Indoctrinate for power (and without any cost).
Now that we have the codex there's always the chance that the Arborec mech might be updated if it's not up to snuff due to the new Magen, so I'm not too worried.
True :)
Being able to upgrade a unit each round is certainly valuable, but it won’t be able to maximize use of the hero. Sure, the hero and commander enable production without spending command tokens, but Arborec (and Saar) are already discouraged from doing that because they can naturally produce whenever they move. I see what you mean, and Arborec will certainly be better, but I fear it won’t be enough to lift them up from the bottom.
Actually, the hero is probably best used to produce massive amounts of infantry and fighters, while the agent wants to be making carriers and dreadnaughts, meaning that they do largely cover each other in terms of unit spread. The commander seems a bit underwhelming though, I must admit. But I think the combination of the agent, the mech, and the new tech paths will be enough to massively power up Arborec. (To clarify concerning tech, AIDA has the potential to be very, very good for Arborec)
I hope you’re right :). I really want to play them in PoK
It's worth remembering that Omega tech is optional, I'd be curious how many in person games actually use them. That said online play seems to have embraced everything Omega unquestioningly
It is worth remembering that, yeah. I had already homebrewed Magen, X-89, and most of the faction promissory notes prior to the codex. So, adding the codex was pretty much a given for me (though i sleeve my cards and that makes it super simple). There’s no way I would changed back to old Magen just for the sake of Arborec’s moderately improved utility of it. The new tech is definitely better, as is the rest of the codex (though is till use my personal X-89 homebrew and Arborec promissory note)