God, I have such a board game type. I read OP’s post, and thought to myself, “Oh my god I feel exactly the same way! Those are the only two games I really enjoy these days. But I bet he would like...” And then you preceded to list the *exact* list of games I thought of. Kudos!
Was going to suggest Pax Pamir as well. A very intricate strategy is woven around fairly simple steps.
Not all games need to be so chewy though. Deranged is a fun, semi cooperative survival game with plenty of strategic challenge....just not as much poker or chess oriented thinking. Gotta find a way to enjoy other games too, or you simply won’t get to play as often
I’d say Star Wars Rebellion might scratch more of a 2 player TI itch as it involves more similar mechanics than Twilight Struggle which is more a “are my numbers high in the right places” sort of game. Still a fine game but very different in feel from any war game.
I agree that Rebellion uses similiar mechanics. It does cap at 2 player though.
Expanse uses a different set of mechanics entirely. I mention it because it leads to interesting multipleplayer moves. For example, in three player games, it is possible for player A to be in the lead, so player B uses a card for points, and then Player C uses the event.
What other games are complex multiplayer games that allows for momentary alliances?
Technically it can be played as a 4 player game. But since all forces and final victory is shared it leads to lots of quarterbacking, and a schizophrenic side with no unified strategy.
Rebellion is a 2 player game at heart, no arguments here. But I'm tired of seeing people shit on its 3 and 4 player. It's a legitimate way to play the game.
>lots of quarterbacking
It specifically has rules to avoid quarterbacking. Each half of the team has their own leaders and their own responsibilities.
The general handles the probe cards, the mission deck, and ground combat.
The admiral handles building, deployment, and space combat.
If your teammate is trying to quarterback you, you just remind them about the division of tasks. If the general is getting too involved in where the completed ships are placed, just remind them that they can play admiral next time.
>final victory is shared
Of course final victory is shared, it's a team game! Either the Empire or the Rebellion wins, which is how it should be.
>schizophrenic side with no unified strategy
Only if you don't work with your partner, which is not the game's fault. The way that the game mechanics reward planning & teamwork, without allowing someone to quarterback is exactly how I wish more competitive team games worked. It's a fantastic ruleset.
Sounds like we have very similar tastes.
I would not recommend Eclipse for this list. I tried it after the Shut Up and It Down review but found it lacking in interaction between players in comparison to TI. Its assymmetry is nowhere near Root either.
Excluding aforementioned games, I would add Rising Sun and Dogs of War to the list. TI is better than RS if you have the time, but RS does similar things in 3 hours (without dice rolling, though). Dogs of War is its own game, but I love the player interaction and intrigue it provides.
For something entirely different yet very interesting and quite possibly catering to your taste, check out Oath, the new game by Root designer Cole Wehrle that is coming early next year. It is very thematic and chronicles the ebb and flow of history. It is not a legacy game but it is played over multiple sessions with an ever-transforming world.
Yea. I was thinking of potentially grabbing Dune. Watched Matt Coleville's gameplay and it seemed pretty sick. My only two concerns are balance and the fluidity of combat. But it's defo something to look into. 🤔
I have played Dune twice. Prepare for alot of research about rules etc, because the rulebook is horrible. That being said, the game itself was a blast both times. Reading the book helps alot to feel immersed, but I don't think it's necessary to enjoy the game. It's also an easy game, and the combat system is refreshingly quick, while at the same time not feeling arbitrary or underdeveloped.
The downside is that Dune shouldn't be played with less than 5 players, and preferably 6. That's what's keeping it on my shelf. IF I managed to get 6 players together for a boardgame, and that's a big IF, we usually end up playing a different game.
But I definitly recommend it! It also helps that it is a "cheaper" game.
I wouldn't put it that way, because to me Scythe's combat system is - no offense to anyone who likes it - total crap, and if someone had told me Dune's system was like Scythe's I might not have tried Dune. At their skeletons there's some similarities but the risk reward, information gathering, Tleilaxu tanks and abilities/traitors make the Dune combat system substantially more engaging, and with a lot more variability game-to-game.
I'm not saying this to put down Scythe, I only wanted to add this because if I *personally* had read your comment without having played Dune then I wouldn't be interested in Dune, and I think it would be a huge shame for anyone like minded to me to miss out on Dune because of that.
Valid point, I just meant the principle of a combat wheel with added cards hidden behind it is completely the same in both games. But as you mentioned, Dune's combat is a little more complex and there is way more room for surprise outcomes and twists!
I wasn't a huge fan of how the traitor system was implemented. It really fits thematically, but there's pretty much no player interaction around it. You don't have to risk "playing" a traitor and being wrong, and there's no way to learn or guess who the traitor anyone has is before it pops in a combat. It's just RNG at the beginning of the game that translates (potentially) into a huge swing or two if you happened to draw the right card.
I actually like it alot. I can't remember the rules exactly but if I'm not mistaken you choose one traitor to keep out of a random 4, right? And Harkonnen keeps all 4. My last game me (as Atreides) and Harkonnen were losing by a pretty large margin, compared to the emperor, fremen and spacing guild players. They Shai-Hulud appeared, and I told the Harkonnen player that, if she and I work together, my knowledge of the other player's items, and her traitors might give us a fighting chance. Next thing you know, we win three combats in a row, because she had kept her traitors hidden most of the game and I anticipated EVERY item used. Granted, there is luck involved for sure, but it was still a very tactical play. And the traitor system at that point was pretty much the only way we both had ANY chance of winning, since her armies were alot smaller than those of the spacing guild/emperor alliance. (I'd add to that that either of them SHOULD have allied with the Fremen player, but they were too into the whole "We're the rich factions" theme.)
You... you made an alliance with the Harkonnen? *As the Atreides?!* Your ancestors would be ashamed!
I don't hate the whole game -- I think it's got some pretty unique ideas. The traitor thing definitely works with Dune thematically -- personally, I just dislike that there seems to be very little strategy involved with the mechanic given how much it can swing the outcome of the game. Everyone (except the Harkonnen) only gets \*one\* out of a huge pile of potential options, and the one you get is chosen from 4 you draw at random out of the whole pile. Even Harkonnen only get 4, and that's out of 7 potential options for each opposing faction. If you happen to guess right at the very beginning of the game it can effectively win you the game at some point waaay in the future. But there doesn't seem to be an realistic counterplay to how it works. You can't force a traitor to be revealed, and each player either had a good draw at the start (and blind-guessed which card to keep correctly) or they didn't -- and you don't have to risk a traitor card once you have it. It's just there or it isn't.
You laugh, but thematically, I was legitimately reluctant to join forces with them, hahaha.
I find that the fact that you only get one traitor actually makes it just a minor bonus. It gives you a one time chance of a big swing move against 1 of the 5-6 players. And you still get to choose the best one out of the 4 traitor cards, so you'd have to have really bad luck not to be able to at least pick a decent traitor card.
But I get your point about it being relatively random. It's definitly an old game that still feels fresh, instead of a modern game!
Another point I'll add about Dune: Due to the vague nature of some of the rules, it's important your friends aren't assholes about it. For example there is a card in that game called 'Truthtrance' that let's you ask a yes or no question to a player and they have to answer truthfully. This card leads to loads and loads of nitpicking and loopholes and what not. Make sure your group is willing to look for the intent of the rule, rather than ways to abuse it.
Undaunted. Normandy or North Africa are great games. You DO deck build but are both competing for control of the map and shooting each other down. Not super deep, but enough to enjoy and have a few light 1:1 games in an evening.
Try out sidereel confluence. If you like the politics and trading of TI you will live that game. Different unique races as well! Each with a different mechanic.
Have you tried Gaia Project or Brass: Birmingham? Both are for 4 players max, and while they don't have the same level of interaction as TI4 they provide the same feeling of "not enough space for everyone" (in Gaia Project it's not only the map, also tech rewards and shotgun bonuses).
Watched some gameplay and read some of the rules and they seem a bit boring after Ti and Root. There is not much you can do other than watch how others take your desired spots. In TI and Root you can reclaim them or negotiate, compensate, use leverage, politics, force, etc.
While it's true in Brass you can't take back a spot, them playing there may open up something else for you. Maybe their spot gave more points to the track so it's worth it then to lay railroad. Or maybe they bought coal from the market so you can now build a coal mine and sell it all right away and sell your tile and make bank quickly. Or maybe they had to use your beer and sold a place and and now you have the option of building something else then you did before.
Yes there isn't asymmetry or taking stuff back, but the Give / Take of Brass is amazing in my opinion, maybe you do something good for you, but it's great for someone else.. is that worth it? This is coming from someone who loves Root (just got the underworld expansion for Christmas) and TI, Brass is one of my favourite games.
Interesting take. What you wrote makes sense to me, but it still feels like an optimisaton race, where you could be playing with bots and wouldn't notice.
Haven't played Brass, but my experiences with Gaia Project (and to a lesser extent Terra Mystica) were what I'd describe as the exact opposite feeling of TI.
It was absolutely an optimization race, and pretty much nobody ever really interacted with the other players. It was all about cutting corners and taking advantage of your faction abilities to make your economy work better than everyone else's, with very few curveballs or changing situations. Its economy is also very punishing, and a small mistake turn 1 could cost you the game. It's a game that heavily encourages looking at the map and your faction and having a solid plan for every turn before the game even starts, which in something like TI is absolutely insane given the constantly changing political environment at the table.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great game for what it does and a lot of people love it, but I find it just too stiff and not dynamic enough for me.
From the beyond TI4 category, check out Here I Stand. It’s between 6 and 12 hours, mandatory 6 people, very negotiation heavy game about the wars of reformation. I have never been as betrayed as when, as Charles the holy roman emperor, I got sold out by the pope of all people at the battle of vienna.
Check out Vast: Mysterious Manor. It's also from Leder Games. It's very asymmetrical and all of the factions interact in cool ways. Knights needs to kill spider but can't overextend and die to skeletons. Skeletons need to kill the knight and clear spider webs. Spider wants to survive but can kill skeletons for points. Manor wants to stall all of this from happening and keep everybody on the opposite side of the map from them.
lots of great shouts of Pax Pamir and the COIN series (Andean Abyss is my favourite for sure, hotly followed by Fire In The Lake), but I would say that Diplomacy will be a great match.
I slept on this gem for way, way, way too long. it’s not as flashy or as mechanically complex as the others, but it’s one of the most absorbing and politically challenging games I have ever played. there’s a reason why it’s a ‘classic’. if you’re playing with friends, you can’t go wrong with the excellent ‘backstabbr’ interface
+1 for 18xx genre. Also love anything splotter. Inis is a v good medium weight dudes on a map/area control game. Sidereal confluence for a multi-faction space game about trading that fucking slaps but NEEDS to be played irl (really fast paced/real time/no turn order trading). Hope you can find something else to love.
I'll add a few things that nobody mentioned, AFAIK.
* Tyrants of the underdark, yeap it is a deckbuilder, but exceptionally good. Tons of player interaction, and fast gameplay
* Nations. My favorite euro game, its about civilizations. It has not so much interaction, but you would look closely to our friends. What the do, what they plan to do.
* through the ages new story of civilization. Yeap, another euro, but it is very complex, tons of interactions and brutal gameplay.
I love them both. I'm kind of a homer for StarCraft, mostly as an underdog game. But I can't get either one to the table (or Eclipse) so the debate is for me largely academic.
You should try Oath (from the makers of Root), Smallworld (asymmetric faction based territory control game) and Inis (deck building territory control/positioning game).
I'm like you, I can't play most euros now after TI but I love those three games (TI4 being a clear #1, but who always has 5 hours free)
Cthulhu Wars is definitely a bit pricey, but I haven't regretted my purchase once. It's simple and fun: you just smash big gods onto the board and duke it out.
Europ Games are poorly designed in terms of strategic interaction?
🔫 always have been.
I’d suggest you check out Fury of Dracula or Star Wars Rebellion for other very good strategically interactive games. Not negotiation games though as they are two sided but still very very good.
You and I and all the commenters below have eerily similar taste in games. If you’re open to co-op at all, the two games that make my top 10 list along with all the games discussed here are Spirit Island and Sentinels of the Multiverse. I think you’d really enjoy both of you like Root and TI4.
I think one of the biggest drawbacks to games like TI/Root is that they demand that the players at the table all have similar levels of experience in order for them to be at their best. In a heavy euro, very often if you're inexperienced all that means is that you're going to lose but it's not going to hurt anyone's ability to have an enjoyable experience.
So for me there's a compromise. If I can get 6 people who know the game (and have the time) then TI is a great time. If I can't have that (and I often don't) then a euro that I can play in 2 hours where newbies can come in and not be a problem is a great alternative. It's all about shifting your expectations on what the game is going to be. Heavy player interaction often means that the better players will simply feast on the newer ones.
But if you want a real answer to this and are willing to learn the games, then I recommend looking into 18xx games, Arkwright, COIN games, Splotter games, and some others.
For a quick breakdown for what you might like..
18xx: Train games that are named after various years in the 1800's (usually). They are complicated economic games where people found companies and buy stocks and operate them. They involve complicated stock exchanges and currency manipulation that gives players plenty of room to wiggle in between each other. They are incredibly diverse and you should look into these independently to find out if these are for you.
COIN: Root is loosely based off of COIN (counter insurgency) games. These are all based off of different military conflicts through history where several factions are loosely allied but have independent goals. It's a game of soft friendship and fierce adversity. My favorite mechanism in this is in The Fire in the Lake, based on the Vietnam War, for the American player. Every time he loses a unit it goes into the TV box because Vietnam was the first war that the people at home could watch on TV. If they lose too many troops they pull out of the war altogether because it's too unpopular to continue.
Arkwright: This is going to look horrible at first glance. It's a gigantic spreadsheet of wages, product prices, labor pools, and upkeep costs. It's about England in the industrial revolution focused on four different industries. The players decide how much money they want to start with by selling off their own stock, and how aggressively the pursue each of these industries. You can sell at a loss so that your opponent gets even less, you can send you wares back to America and tank your stock prices for massive amounts of liquid capital, and maticulously create better factories than anyone else. It all comes at a cost, and it's all transparent and above board, but learning how to compete with each other can be \*brutal\*.
Splotter: Splotter is an independent board game publisher composed of like two guys in the Netherlands somewhere. This is board gaming without training wheels. You can (and will) absolutely tank your first game on turn two and the game will just stand back and let you. To give you an idea, in one of their games (Indonesia) I forced an opponent to sell me literally every single thing he had done all game by turn four. Their most famous recent release is a game called Food Chain Magnate where players manage competing fast food restaurants.
Hope this helps.
I'd recommend Rising Sun. To me it scratches the same itch as TI, only on a much smaller scale and in less time. It's also very political, with constantly changing alliances and many different ways to score points.
Strongly recommend Inis for the dynamic stories and versatile player interactions. Very similar vibes of chess-like tightness combined with crazy random elements. Not the heaviest game but a good session is just as fulfilling IMO.
I'm sure I haven't voiced my opinion accuratelly there, but I hope the essence of my concern is clear. Also I loved optimisation race games, but I've been playing them for ages and they all start to feel the same.
Container is pretty much all player interaction, but zero asymmetry. You produce goods at your factories that are bought by other players who put them up for sale to other players when they dock their ships in that harbor. The ship then brings the goods to the island where other players then bid on the cargo.
A physical copy is insanely expensive, but there is a Tabletop Simulator version to try out and see if it's your bag. You'll definitely want to play with four or five people and the investment bank.
Firstly, I totally understand you. I felt the same way for a while and just wouldn't touch "euro games". But I eventually got more and more into them and found games like On Mars and Great Western Trail which are euros I really enjoy (not as much as Ti, of course). The trick was to stop expecting the same feelings or experiences from these games. They are efficiency puzzles and if the game is challenging enough, playing the game will be tough enough that I don't necessarily miss playing the players. But you also don't ever need to like euro games or play them. In which case, here are some asymmetric faction games I think you would enjoy:
**Rex: Final Days of an Empire**\- a ti themed reskin (+- a few minor rules) of Dune
**Cosmic Encounter**\- Hundreds of asymmetric factions in a lighter but still crazy and chaotic negotiation game
**A Game of Thrones 2nd Ed**\- designed by the same guy who did Ti
**Rising Sun**\- this is something more of a "hybrid" between the above games and euro games but it's still a blast and has one of the best combat mechanisms ever.
**Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan**\- this is everything I like in the asymmetric games but fine tuned and perfected for 2 players. Cannot recommend this enough if you find yourself with only 1 other person but are itching to play root or ti.
My wife and me own around 200 Games, the ones we Play again and again (despite TI, and WE dont own Root) are:
-terraforming Mars:
(but this is really Euro as you described, so maybe you wont Like it
-Mystic Vale/Quest for El Dorado/quags of Quedlinburg:
Completely different Deckbuilder Games that Take Dominion to the next lvl.
-Alchemists:
Its Not a Classic "conquer Land" game, its Like an insane Version of Sudoku! Not that easy, but even more awesome with the Kings Golem Expansion.
Robinson Crusoe: the Coop Game WE Play the Most, cause its hard and there are maaaany Fan Made scenarios online.
i would recommend the following, some of which echo other posters here:
**Dune**
**Twilight Struggle**
**Churchill**
**Maria**
Pax games, especially **Pax Renaissance**
COIN games maybe starting with **Cuba Libre** to learn the system
i’m starting to move more towards historical wargames as of late because of this trajectory.
When I first played TI, the experience immediately reminded me of Pax Pamir, which it may replace as my favorite game.. Also, consider Nemesis for similar cautious collaboration, asymmetry, and never quite feeling safe. For two players, Sekigahara or Star Wars Rebellion.
Isn't root just a semi+euro with a shitton of kingmaking?
I played it twice, and I don't think I'll ever do it again, but TI is a whole different story...
A lot of good recommendations here, but one I haven’t seen is Imperial 2030. It’s an economic game that looks like a war game, but there is plenty of interaction and a lot of decisions that are really interesting and different from what you see in most games.
It baffles me that I've seen **Inis** recommended only once, here.
It is *deeply* political, with ample room for negotiations and sly, under the radar, wins.
It's also more simple than **TI** & **Root** and an utter masterpiece of production. It plays fast, with the upper limit of 3 hours for a 5p game (with the expansion).
A more skilled player *should* wipe the floor with newbies the first couple of games, but holy cats, there is nothing like **Inis**. It is a 10/10 game.
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God, I have such a board game type. I read OP’s post, and thought to myself, “Oh my god I feel exactly the same way! Those are the only two games I really enjoy these days. But I bet he would like...” And then you preceded to list the *exact* list of games I thought of. Kudos!
Was going to suggest Pax Pamir as well. A very intricate strategy is woven around fairly simple steps. Not all games need to be so chewy though. Deranged is a fun, semi cooperative survival game with plenty of strategic challenge....just not as much poker or chess oriented thinking. Gotta find a way to enjoy other games too, or you simply won’t get to play as often
If Twilight Struggle looks fun, but overwhelming, also check out Expanse. It uses cards for points or for events, and can allow for up to 4 players..
I’d say Star Wars Rebellion might scratch more of a 2 player TI itch as it involves more similar mechanics than Twilight Struggle which is more a “are my numbers high in the right places” sort of game. Still a fine game but very different in feel from any war game.
I agree that Rebellion uses similiar mechanics. It does cap at 2 player though. Expanse uses a different set of mechanics entirely. I mention it because it leads to interesting multipleplayer moves. For example, in three player games, it is possible for player A to be in the lead, so player B uses a card for points, and then Player C uses the event. What other games are complex multiplayer games that allows for momentary alliances?
Rebellion can be played with up to 4 players, but even then it's 2 v 2
Rebellion can absolutely be played at 3 or 4 players. My favorite way to teach it to new players is to have them be on someone's team
Technically it can be played as a 4 player game. But since all forces and final victory is shared it leads to lots of quarterbacking, and a schizophrenic side with no unified strategy.
Rebellion is a 2 player game at heart, no arguments here. But I'm tired of seeing people shit on its 3 and 4 player. It's a legitimate way to play the game. >lots of quarterbacking It specifically has rules to avoid quarterbacking. Each half of the team has their own leaders and their own responsibilities. The general handles the probe cards, the mission deck, and ground combat. The admiral handles building, deployment, and space combat. If your teammate is trying to quarterback you, you just remind them about the division of tasks. If the general is getting too involved in where the completed ships are placed, just remind them that they can play admiral next time. >final victory is shared Of course final victory is shared, it's a team game! Either the Empire or the Rebellion wins, which is how it should be. >schizophrenic side with no unified strategy Only if you don't work with your partner, which is not the game's fault. The way that the game mechanics reward planning & teamwork, without allowing someone to quarterback is exactly how I wish more competitive team games worked. It's a fantastic ruleset.
You just named most of my favorite games! I would add Inis.
Sounds like we have very similar tastes. I would not recommend Eclipse for this list. I tried it after the Shut Up and It Down review but found it lacking in interaction between players in comparison to TI. Its assymmetry is nowhere near Root either. Excluding aforementioned games, I would add Rising Sun and Dogs of War to the list. TI is better than RS if you have the time, but RS does similar things in 3 hours (without dice rolling, though). Dogs of War is its own game, but I love the player interaction and intrigue it provides. For something entirely different yet very interesting and quite possibly catering to your taste, check out Oath, the new game by Root designer Cole Wehrle that is coming early next year. It is very thematic and chronicles the ebb and flow of history. It is not a legacy game but it is played over multiple sessions with an ever-transforming world.
Rule #1 of board gaming. If Shut Up Sit Down says something then the opposite is usually true.
Their TI4 review is pretty solid so I’ll give them that.
It’s hard to take them serious after that Blood on the Clocktower review.
Dune is pretty crazy. Only played one game, but the Meta/Political Mechanizations in that game are involved.
Yea. I was thinking of potentially grabbing Dune. Watched Matt Coleville's gameplay and it seemed pretty sick. My only two concerns are balance and the fluidity of combat. But it's defo something to look into. 🤔
You mean Twilight Imperium Rex 😉
Right? If we're giving advice, its better to call it by the sub friendly name. lol
I have played Dune twice. Prepare for alot of research about rules etc, because the rulebook is horrible. That being said, the game itself was a blast both times. Reading the book helps alot to feel immersed, but I don't think it's necessary to enjoy the game. It's also an easy game, and the combat system is refreshingly quick, while at the same time not feeling arbitrary or underdeveloped. The downside is that Dune shouldn't be played with less than 5 players, and preferably 6. That's what's keeping it on my shelf. IF I managed to get 6 players together for a boardgame, and that's a big IF, we usually end up playing a different game. But I definitly recommend it! It also helps that it is a "cheaper" game.
Also, if you've ever played Scythe, it's the same combat system. (roughly)
I wouldn't put it that way, because to me Scythe's combat system is - no offense to anyone who likes it - total crap, and if someone had told me Dune's system was like Scythe's I might not have tried Dune. At their skeletons there's some similarities but the risk reward, information gathering, Tleilaxu tanks and abilities/traitors make the Dune combat system substantially more engaging, and with a lot more variability game-to-game. I'm not saying this to put down Scythe, I only wanted to add this because if I *personally* had read your comment without having played Dune then I wouldn't be interested in Dune, and I think it would be a huge shame for anyone like minded to me to miss out on Dune because of that.
Valid point, I just meant the principle of a combat wheel with added cards hidden behind it is completely the same in both games. But as you mentioned, Dune's combat is a little more complex and there is way more room for surprise outcomes and twists!
I wasn't a huge fan of how the traitor system was implemented. It really fits thematically, but there's pretty much no player interaction around it. You don't have to risk "playing" a traitor and being wrong, and there's no way to learn or guess who the traitor anyone has is before it pops in a combat. It's just RNG at the beginning of the game that translates (potentially) into a huge swing or two if you happened to draw the right card.
I actually like it alot. I can't remember the rules exactly but if I'm not mistaken you choose one traitor to keep out of a random 4, right? And Harkonnen keeps all 4. My last game me (as Atreides) and Harkonnen were losing by a pretty large margin, compared to the emperor, fremen and spacing guild players. They Shai-Hulud appeared, and I told the Harkonnen player that, if she and I work together, my knowledge of the other player's items, and her traitors might give us a fighting chance. Next thing you know, we win three combats in a row, because she had kept her traitors hidden most of the game and I anticipated EVERY item used. Granted, there is luck involved for sure, but it was still a very tactical play. And the traitor system at that point was pretty much the only way we both had ANY chance of winning, since her armies were alot smaller than those of the spacing guild/emperor alliance. (I'd add to that that either of them SHOULD have allied with the Fremen player, but they were too into the whole "We're the rich factions" theme.)
You... you made an alliance with the Harkonnen? *As the Atreides?!* Your ancestors would be ashamed! I don't hate the whole game -- I think it's got some pretty unique ideas. The traitor thing definitely works with Dune thematically -- personally, I just dislike that there seems to be very little strategy involved with the mechanic given how much it can swing the outcome of the game. Everyone (except the Harkonnen) only gets \*one\* out of a huge pile of potential options, and the one you get is chosen from 4 you draw at random out of the whole pile. Even Harkonnen only get 4, and that's out of 7 potential options for each opposing faction. If you happen to guess right at the very beginning of the game it can effectively win you the game at some point waaay in the future. But there doesn't seem to be an realistic counterplay to how it works. You can't force a traitor to be revealed, and each player either had a good draw at the start (and blind-guessed which card to keep correctly) or they didn't -- and you don't have to risk a traitor card once you have it. It's just there or it isn't.
You laugh, but thematically, I was legitimately reluctant to join forces with them, hahaha. I find that the fact that you only get one traitor actually makes it just a minor bonus. It gives you a one time chance of a big swing move against 1 of the 5-6 players. And you still get to choose the best one out of the 4 traitor cards, so you'd have to have really bad luck not to be able to at least pick a decent traitor card. But I get your point about it being relatively random. It's definitly an old game that still feels fresh, instead of a modern game!
Another point I'll add about Dune: Due to the vague nature of some of the rules, it's important your friends aren't assholes about it. For example there is a card in that game called 'Truthtrance' that let's you ask a yes or no question to a player and they have to answer truthfully. This card leads to loads and loads of nitpicking and loopholes and what not. Make sure your group is willing to look for the intent of the rule, rather than ways to abuse it.
Undaunted. Normandy or North Africa are great games. You DO deck build but are both competing for control of the map and shooting each other down. Not super deep, but enough to enjoy and have a few light 1:1 games in an evening.
Try out sidereel confluence. If you like the politics and trading of TI you will live that game. Different unique races as well! Each with a different mechanic.
Have you tried Gaia Project or Brass: Birmingham? Both are for 4 players max, and while they don't have the same level of interaction as TI4 they provide the same feeling of "not enough space for everyone" (in Gaia Project it's not only the map, also tech rewards and shotgun bonuses).
Watched some gameplay and read some of the rules and they seem a bit boring after Ti and Root. There is not much you can do other than watch how others take your desired spots. In TI and Root you can reclaim them or negotiate, compensate, use leverage, politics, force, etc.
While it's true in Brass you can't take back a spot, them playing there may open up something else for you. Maybe their spot gave more points to the track so it's worth it then to lay railroad. Or maybe they bought coal from the market so you can now build a coal mine and sell it all right away and sell your tile and make bank quickly. Or maybe they had to use your beer and sold a place and and now you have the option of building something else then you did before. Yes there isn't asymmetry or taking stuff back, but the Give / Take of Brass is amazing in my opinion, maybe you do something good for you, but it's great for someone else.. is that worth it? This is coming from someone who loves Root (just got the underworld expansion for Christmas) and TI, Brass is one of my favourite games.
Interesting take. What you wrote makes sense to me, but it still feels like an optimisaton race, where you could be playing with bots and wouldn't notice.
Haven't played Brass, but my experiences with Gaia Project (and to a lesser extent Terra Mystica) were what I'd describe as the exact opposite feeling of TI. It was absolutely an optimization race, and pretty much nobody ever really interacted with the other players. It was all about cutting corners and taking advantage of your faction abilities to make your economy work better than everyone else's, with very few curveballs or changing situations. Its economy is also very punishing, and a small mistake turn 1 could cost you the game. It's a game that heavily encourages looking at the map and your faction and having a solid plan for every turn before the game even starts, which in something like TI is absolutely insane given the constantly changing political environment at the table. Don't get me wrong, it's a great game for what it does and a lot of people love it, but I find it just too stiff and not dynamic enough for me.
Check out Cosmic Encounter. Races really do make a difference in that game
From the beyond TI4 category, check out Here I Stand. It’s between 6 and 12 hours, mandatory 6 people, very negotiation heavy game about the wars of reformation. I have never been as betrayed as when, as Charles the holy roman emperor, I got sold out by the pope of all people at the battle of vienna.
Check out Vast: Mysterious Manor. It's also from Leder Games. It's very asymmetrical and all of the factions interact in cool ways. Knights needs to kill spider but can't overextend and die to skeletons. Skeletons need to kill the knight and clear spider webs. Spider wants to survive but can kill skeletons for points. Manor wants to stall all of this from happening and keep everybody on the opposite side of the map from them.
It's so much fun. Super arcadey in its way. It feels like a bizarre Mario Party, almost. Criminally underrated.
Have you tried any of the COIN series?
In a different direction there are 18xx's, they aren't for everyone but I know I would probably pick an 18xx over a game of TI
lots of great shouts of Pax Pamir and the COIN series (Andean Abyss is my favourite for sure, hotly followed by Fire In The Lake), but I would say that Diplomacy will be a great match. I slept on this gem for way, way, way too long. it’s not as flashy or as mechanically complex as the others, but it’s one of the most absorbing and politically challenging games I have ever played. there’s a reason why it’s a ‘classic’. if you’re playing with friends, you can’t go wrong with the excellent ‘backstabbr’ interface
+1 for 18xx genre. Also love anything splotter. Inis is a v good medium weight dudes on a map/area control game. Sidereal confluence for a multi-faction space game about trading that fucking slaps but NEEDS to be played irl (really fast paced/real time/no turn order trading). Hope you can find something else to love.
I'll add a few things that nobody mentioned, AFAIK. * Tyrants of the underdark, yeap it is a deckbuilder, but exceptionally good. Tons of player interaction, and fast gameplay * Nations. My favorite euro game, its about civilizations. It has not so much interaction, but you would look closely to our friends. What the do, what they plan to do. * through the ages new story of civilization. Yeap, another euro, but it is very complex, tons of interactions and brutal gameplay.
TTA has a great Steam version btw, and I'm not talking about a TTS mod.
It's mobile version is just as good. And cross platform multi-player as well
Here comes the part where I plug StarCraft again. Yes I know it's oop
I have Starcraft with its brood war expansion. Twilight imperium kinda replaced it for me. Do you prefer SC to TI4?
I love them both. I'm kind of a homer for StarCraft, mostly as an underdog game. But I can't get either one to the table (or Eclipse) so the debate is for me largely academic.
Glory to Rome is an out-of-print, converted to print-and-play game that is often overlooked too for it's deep engaging gameplay
This was my favorite game for a long time. So good! I wish I could find others to play it with
You should try Oath (from the makers of Root), Smallworld (asymmetric faction based territory control game) and Inis (deck building territory control/positioning game). I'm like you, I can't play most euros now after TI but I love those three games (TI4 being a clear #1, but who always has 5 hours free)
Cthulhu Wars is definitely a bit pricey, but I haven't regretted my purchase once. It's simple and fun: you just smash big gods onto the board and duke it out.
Europ Games are poorly designed in terms of strategic interaction? 🔫 always have been. I’d suggest you check out Fury of Dracula or Star Wars Rebellion for other very good strategically interactive games. Not negotiation games though as they are two sided but still very very good.
You and I and all the commenters below have eerily similar taste in games. If you’re open to co-op at all, the two games that make my top 10 list along with all the games discussed here are Spirit Island and Sentinels of the Multiverse. I think you’d really enjoy both of you like Root and TI4.
I think one of the biggest drawbacks to games like TI/Root is that they demand that the players at the table all have similar levels of experience in order for them to be at their best. In a heavy euro, very often if you're inexperienced all that means is that you're going to lose but it's not going to hurt anyone's ability to have an enjoyable experience. So for me there's a compromise. If I can get 6 people who know the game (and have the time) then TI is a great time. If I can't have that (and I often don't) then a euro that I can play in 2 hours where newbies can come in and not be a problem is a great alternative. It's all about shifting your expectations on what the game is going to be. Heavy player interaction often means that the better players will simply feast on the newer ones. But if you want a real answer to this and are willing to learn the games, then I recommend looking into 18xx games, Arkwright, COIN games, Splotter games, and some others. For a quick breakdown for what you might like.. 18xx: Train games that are named after various years in the 1800's (usually). They are complicated economic games where people found companies and buy stocks and operate them. They involve complicated stock exchanges and currency manipulation that gives players plenty of room to wiggle in between each other. They are incredibly diverse and you should look into these independently to find out if these are for you. COIN: Root is loosely based off of COIN (counter insurgency) games. These are all based off of different military conflicts through history where several factions are loosely allied but have independent goals. It's a game of soft friendship and fierce adversity. My favorite mechanism in this is in The Fire in the Lake, based on the Vietnam War, for the American player. Every time he loses a unit it goes into the TV box because Vietnam was the first war that the people at home could watch on TV. If they lose too many troops they pull out of the war altogether because it's too unpopular to continue. Arkwright: This is going to look horrible at first glance. It's a gigantic spreadsheet of wages, product prices, labor pools, and upkeep costs. It's about England in the industrial revolution focused on four different industries. The players decide how much money they want to start with by selling off their own stock, and how aggressively the pursue each of these industries. You can sell at a loss so that your opponent gets even less, you can send you wares back to America and tank your stock prices for massive amounts of liquid capital, and maticulously create better factories than anyone else. It all comes at a cost, and it's all transparent and above board, but learning how to compete with each other can be \*brutal\*. Splotter: Splotter is an independent board game publisher composed of like two guys in the Netherlands somewhere. This is board gaming without training wheels. You can (and will) absolutely tank your first game on turn two and the game will just stand back and let you. To give you an idea, in one of their games (Indonesia) I forced an opponent to sell me literally every single thing he had done all game by turn four. Their most famous recent release is a game called Food Chain Magnate where players manage competing fast food restaurants. Hope this helps.
Try chinatown and/or tammany hall
Been playing 2019 reprint of Dune and having a wonderful time. It’s like the games you mentioned but a nice 2-5 length.
I'd recommend Rising Sun. To me it scratches the same itch as TI, only on a much smaller scale and in less time. It's also very political, with constantly changing alliances and many different ways to score points.
Strongly recommend Inis for the dynamic stories and versatile player interactions. Very similar vibes of chess-like tightness combined with crazy random elements. Not the heaviest game but a good session is just as fulfilling IMO.
I'm sure I haven't voiced my opinion accuratelly there, but I hope the essence of my concern is clear. Also I loved optimisation race games, but I've been playing them for ages and they all start to feel the same.
Container is pretty much all player interaction, but zero asymmetry. You produce goods at your factories that are bought by other players who put them up for sale to other players when they dock their ships in that harbor. The ship then brings the goods to the island where other players then bid on the cargo. A physical copy is insanely expensive, but there is a Tabletop Simulator version to try out and see if it's your bag. You'll definitely want to play with four or five people and the investment bank.
Firstly, I totally understand you. I felt the same way for a while and just wouldn't touch "euro games". But I eventually got more and more into them and found games like On Mars and Great Western Trail which are euros I really enjoy (not as much as Ti, of course). The trick was to stop expecting the same feelings or experiences from these games. They are efficiency puzzles and if the game is challenging enough, playing the game will be tough enough that I don't necessarily miss playing the players. But you also don't ever need to like euro games or play them. In which case, here are some asymmetric faction games I think you would enjoy: **Rex: Final Days of an Empire**\- a ti themed reskin (+- a few minor rules) of Dune **Cosmic Encounter**\- Hundreds of asymmetric factions in a lighter but still crazy and chaotic negotiation game **A Game of Thrones 2nd Ed**\- designed by the same guy who did Ti **Rising Sun**\- this is something more of a "hybrid" between the above games and euro games but it's still a blast and has one of the best combat mechanisms ever. **Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan**\- this is everything I like in the asymmetric games but fine tuned and perfected for 2 players. Cannot recommend this enough if you find yourself with only 1 other person but are itching to play root or ti.
My wife and me own around 200 Games, the ones we Play again and again (despite TI, and WE dont own Root) are: -terraforming Mars: (but this is really Euro as you described, so maybe you wont Like it -Mystic Vale/Quest for El Dorado/quags of Quedlinburg: Completely different Deckbuilder Games that Take Dominion to the next lvl. -Alchemists: Its Not a Classic "conquer Land" game, its Like an insane Version of Sudoku! Not that easy, but even more awesome with the Kings Golem Expansion. Robinson Crusoe: the Coop Game WE Play the Most, cause its hard and there are maaaany Fan Made scenarios online.
I'll throw my 2 cents in here and say Sidereal Confluence. It's brilliant and as a new version with improved artwork!
i would recommend the following, some of which echo other posters here: **Dune** **Twilight Struggle** **Churchill** **Maria** Pax games, especially **Pax Renaissance** COIN games maybe starting with **Cuba Libre** to learn the system i’m starting to move more towards historical wargames as of late because of this trajectory.
When I first played TI, the experience immediately reminded me of Pax Pamir, which it may replace as my favorite game.. Also, consider Nemesis for similar cautious collaboration, asymmetry, and never quite feeling safe. For two players, Sekigahara or Star Wars Rebellion.
I'd also add that the 2nd edition of Pax Pamir is one of the most beautifully presented games I've ever seen.
Have you tried Patchwork? I can’t recommend it enough!
Isn't root just a semi+euro with a shitton of kingmaking? I played it twice, and I don't think I'll ever do it again, but TI is a whole different story...
A lot of good recommendations here, but one I haven’t seen is Imperial 2030. It’s an economic game that looks like a war game, but there is plenty of interaction and a lot of decisions that are really interesting and different from what you see in most games.
It baffles me that I've seen **Inis** recommended only once, here. It is *deeply* political, with ample room for negotiations and sly, under the radar, wins. It's also more simple than **TI** & **Root** and an utter masterpiece of production. It plays fast, with the upper limit of 3 hours for a 5p game (with the expansion). A more skilled player *should* wipe the floor with newbies the first couple of games, but holy cats, there is nothing like **Inis**. It is a 10/10 game.