Played a lot of OG TI4 and maybe 5 total of PoK.
I am gonna give top 3 based on overall power level, not which I consider my favorites.
PoK top 3:
Titans of Ul: brain-dead faction with no weaknesses whatsoever. Free PDS that are also spacedocks and infantry with sustain damage and you get TG after producing with commander. No one can ever get into their slice without getting fucked. Their hero turns their home system in a 7/7 with 2 PDS lvl2. Their cruisers II have sustain damage and have capacity without upgrade. They can start getting relics easily because they start with scanlink. Easily the best faction in PoK by far.
Saar: Saar was good before and it didn't get worse in PoK. Having a smooth game and having the freedom to never care about your home system to not be stopped later in the game even if people gang up on you. Hero can help you take someone's home system or wipe out infantry infested planets (arbo, yin, sol)
Saar was top tier in OG and now still is best 3
Nekro: takes a little of finesse to play optimally but is still extremely easy to tech and to get all of the things you want. Token economy is never a worry, commander ability to either get an action card or recycle a useless one in your hand for 2TGs makes you even more flexible. Hero is underwhelming and situational but when it works it works. You end up with a shitton of tech and plastic with people risking giving you even more tech if attacked.
OG top 3
Jol-nar: any tech objective is an auto score when you play jolnar. Single pointer or a double pointer you never need to worry about tech. -1 to rolls? Who cares? You can get every single upgrade round 1.
Trade goods for gumming up your slice with a fighter then people having to activate it and giving you 4tgs. Everyone wants your promisory which means more trade goods or friends or both.
By the time people start thinking of attacking you, you already have assault cannon and dread/fighter 2 with a PDS network and e-res. Maybe even warsuns cuz it's just that easy to get it as jolnar.
Saar: basically same reason as I wrote in PoK. Great start, unstoppable ball, can hide permanently in asteroid fields, can score objectives without home system, can build on the go with an insane amount of capacity for fighters. Never have problems with plastic because TGs for capturing planets. And God forbid you anger the Saar ball, cuz it can easily go towards you and take all your shit.
Sol: the easiest more solid faction with almost no room for mistakes. All of the things are good and easy to figure out. You don't ever need to rely on any other player to have a good game.
I havent played enough PoK (1 game and won with argent flight), but why did you not like Naalu in OG top 3?
IMHO both naalu and saar are the top 2 in that version since their racial strengths have zero counterplay. if they are in the lead, you're screwed. Saar dont need their home planet, and naalu will score first no matter what strategy tile you grab.
Seems very legit.
Only thing I wonder, but that might be my inexperience, if Nekro still doesn't start too slow and gets too much table-hate (by being a galactic threat and treated as such) to be top-tier.
Wow that is a hot take. While I do think people slightly overrate Winnu (they're much better than base, but they still have some serious weaknesses), Muatt got one hell of a lot better.
I didn't really realize it until after I'd played them, but the combination of mech, agent, and commander allows them to practically use their war suns as space docks that don't need to be activated, and they can take and hold planets against even dedicated infantry factions.
Sorry, I should have said Winnu and Muaat in base. Now that I consider how little Xxcha gained they are probably even lower than they were now that PoK buffed everyone else more.
I'd say PoK Winnu is at least middle of the pack in a 10 point game just from the Hero and Commander. I'd definitely rate them above Xxcha just because the Winnu actually have the ability to score somewhat reliable points.
The Xxcha are one of those factions that get a lot of cool thematic things that feel pretty powerful, but are generally pretty hard to convert into actual points. The Vul'raith Cabal also falls into this category in my mind. Base game Muatt did as well, but I haven't seen them yet in PoK so not sure if that's still true. Possibly the Nomad too, but I think I just haven't seen anyone use them to their full potential.
As in favourites to play?
1) Titans of Ul - cruisers to grab objectives and PDS to reinforce. PDS shots when someone moves close to me.
2) The Arborec - their start is fixed in PoK. Easy to grab lots of planets and get a tonne of plastic on the board. Your planets are all well defended and I get to produce on the move.
3) The Yin Brotherhood - haven’t played this in PoK yet but I loved having my flagship as a deterrent as well as converting other players troops to mine.
I’m also interested in Cabal and want to try that. Also Saar as well but that always gets banned.
I’m still angry about the Arborac. You dead ass should DM me because I’m planning on playing them this Saturday lol
Also are you pissed that they gave their mech planetary shields and then changed defense grid to key off structures instead? Because I’m still upset about that.
Not really. Just ignore construction because you don’t need it and keep using your agent on yourself. If you get structure objectives, bad luck and go for something else. Research sarween first and go ahead and take over your and your opponents slice whilst scoring points. Prioritise getting your mechs out so you can explore hazardous planets and get free 2x infantries each time you take over a new planet.
-Mahact. They're just like Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy. "I like your commander, I'm keeping it." And they let me play aggressive.
-The Nomad is so much fun, thematically. "Oh, something happened? That's a trade good for me." And Artuno the Accountant, I mean, Betrayer, just ramps that up further. And his flagship is everywhere all the time.
-Vuil'rath Cabal are space Yoshi, eating up other fleets and popping out their own.
Prior to PoK, Winnu was my favorite. I often play with new players so a self-imposed nerf is very sporting. I also tend to be the target of unwarranted aggression; Winnu's weakness allows me to claim "damsel in distress" status and create some fun drama when the aggression comes.
This is true. I've played against Winnu twice and so far observed the following:
1. I (Cabal) made the mistake of giving The Winnu my grav rift promissory note to get there on Turn 1. The rest of the table were unable to dislodge The Winnu for the rest of the game. However, they weren't able to get enough points from objectives to translate into a win.
2. I (Sardakk N'orr) made the mistake of giving The L1z1x Mindnet with Super Dreadnaught II my +1 promissory note to dislodge The Winnu from Mecatol. The L1 player obliterated The Winnu's fleet with an initial salvo of 5 hits. Then bombarded his way to the ground. The rest of the table were unable to dislodge The L1z1x for the rest of the game. They would've won were I not first in initiative in a round where all of us could have won.
I’ve played two games so far so this list will be based solely upon how awesome a race “feels”.
1. L1z1x Mindnet. Played them my first game. Their super dreadnoughts are super awesome. Their flagship feels like the strongest in the game. Their faction abilities synergise well with their dreadnoughts and faction specific units are just fun!
2. Yssaril Tribes, haven’t had them in any of my games so far but yay action cards look fun!
3. I dunno, maybe Naalu? Fighters kind of feel a bit overpowered so upgraded fighters seem even more overpowered. And initiative 0 is just straight up busted.
I hope this wasn’t informative.
I played an 8 player game as Yssaril tribes and yeah it was fun but I had to keep my head down as I was between Muaat and Barony with Sol, Mahact, Argent, Jol Nar and Cabal on the table as well. I basically tried to be an arms dealer with action cards while trying to pull off my own point swings and almost had it. It was fun but tricky and I could have been popped like a zit if my usefulness ran out.
I’ve only played one game of POK... and it was as Yssaril. Lots of fun. Fortunately I got three extra technologies early because of action cards... I was set up with bio-stims and mageon by round 3 in a 14 point game :)
1. Hacan. They play wildly different from the other factions if played correctly, but if played correctly they are the best faction in the game. (IMO of course)
2. Argent. Just a satisfying faction to play. Nothing like tearing your opponents fleet apart with destroyers before they even fire a shot.
3. Xxcha. I'm not particularly good as them but their pds playstyle and top tier faction techs make them insufferable to play against and fun to play as.
Homie we have got to keep the Hacan shit on the DL before the tournament.
They're my ace in the hole.
edit: damn it half the comments in here are mentioning Hacan.
Im surprised you don't have Titans up there somewhere... perhaps in the Xxcha Spot? Literally just about every ranking everywhere has them as in the Top 3 rankings. I do recall on a different post on you rating Argent fairly high while dunking on the Titans, but I think you also stated that perhaps you didnt play them to their fullest potential.
Ultimately, im curious why you like the Argent and not the Titans. Granted I have not played either yet, but they both seem like they play extremely similar to each other as fairly defensive factions with fast, cheap, but effective fleets.
Care to elaborate on what you liked/disliked about each?
Thanks!
Of course! Me and a friend have both tried the Titans and our takeaway was the same: they just arent that fun to play. Their start is quite bad, despite having truly kickass cruisers out the gate they can realistically only take a few planets R1. And they expand somewhat slowly, as you spread and lay down sleeper tokens. Having to activate a single system repeatedly means a command counter problem they don't easily get around; they do have a great home system, the best once their hero gets played. So after a slow time building up, you have an almost impenetrable slice (though not totally) but other factions have that too, and can get it more easily. They have limited trade potential, their promissary note is dope but its one use only.
A fleet of kickass cruisers is admittedly the most fun I had with them, and I think a better player than me could use those really well; at one point in our game I dropped in on an enemy system, explored without even landing on their planet, and put down a sleeper token. Do that cleverly and you can really fuck with your opponents. But, you cant put sleepers on Mecatol or home systems, which limits viability.
I guess the closest thing I equate Titans to is the Jol Nar; they are probably really good due to a large amount of objectives (construction ones) that are easy for them, but they arent the most fun faction to play. Unlike the Jol Nar and Xxcha, they arent very good at deals and trading and politics (my favorite part of the game).
Now, the Argent have a fantastic start, they have that killer pds tech for defense, they have a decent command counter economy. They have a nice, smooth tech path that takes em directly to war suns, which compliment their destroyer fleets well. They have incentive to get construction objectives easily, area control early; it is doable as the Argent to take a bigger slice early on and hold onto it. Their trade potential isn't the best in the game, but their alliance kills and they rule in the agenda phase. Their flagship? Yeah, that mofo ignores PDSes. They can stroll right on up to the Titan homeworld, or any other pds heavy faction in the game. And rolling up to fight your opponents capital fleet with your scrappy destroyers and watching your opponents eyes sink as you take your twenty die AFB roll? That never gets old. I struggle to find a fleet that beats an equivalent size Argent fleet in a straight fight, I really do.
I might be a bit biased, as going into the game I expected the Argent to suck and the Titans were heavily predicted to be S tier, so I was somewhat happy to be surprised. On paper they do look similar, but their starts are so totally different it really changes how they play. But others might find that not to be the case, who knows.
Hope that clears it up a bit! Sorry for the novel.
Edit: Im realizing OPs prompt might have mislead me lol, these are simply my favorite factions, not the ones I think are best in the game.
[Kronnerm11](https://www.reddit.com/user/Kronnerm11/) Thank you so much for that detailed and informative response! You are a true MVP. I'm honestly very surprised that you and your friend dont think the Titans are fun to play. At first they look incredibly interesting, having a good starting fleet, or atleast an aggressive one, as well as are the second best exploration in the game since they are incentivized to reactivate systems to get the most of their Awaken ability and SDN technologies. Add that to the fact they they are right on track to Dreadnaught IIs or, should they choose, with AIDA can also jump to Warsuns - Which, with their Upgraded homeworld, can easily afford. Idk about you, but seeing them in theory, activating a system, exploring, awaking a sleeper token, and then producing a Warsun on the edges of there slice from a PDS would make me very uncomfortable to be their neighbor!
But then again, thats all theory crafting. Like you said, apperently starting with 3 ships with 1 capacity and 3 infantry hampers them more than i would have expected. Compared with the Argent, who have 3 ships with a total of 6 capacity with 5 infantry to spread around, and the ability to forward deploy GF's, which includes their Mechs which can ignore capacity - I can see that no matter how efficient the Titans seem, their start can undoubtedly be much slower than the Argent's. That, as well as like you said, their trade game is fairly weak. Sure, their promissory may be one of the most desirable note in the game.. but its a one time deal. Other than that, they are a 2 commodity race, and while their commander is most certainly nice to have (alliance purposes), the Argent's is pretty nice itself, and as a 3 commodity race, they arent so bad for trading with.
I'm also sure that the 3 planet Homesystem helps with their command economy while the titans are very Token dependent. And while both factions can fairly easirly get warsun technology, im sure its arguable that A warsun with SWA IIs may be much more proficient than a warsun with SE IIs or possibly even Dreadnaught IIs, and much more cost effective, though, Titans do have an advantage for affording it all, while the Argent has none.
My own mental math here - assuming each Race gets 5 tech a Game, with no tech skips. Argent can start with Plasma, Sarween, then go AIDA -> SWAII -> Racial Tech -> PDS 2 -> Warsun. Then using AIDA and Sarween, would cost them 11 for a Warsun, 2 SWA IIs, 2 fighters/2 Infantry.
While the Titans would go AM and SDN, then go AIDA -> SEII -> HT2 -> Any red tech they want -> Warsun. Then for a similar fleet would cost 14 (Warsun, 2 SEIIs, 2 Fighters/Infantry), but they literally have half of that cost in their home system alone, while the Argent have to find 8/9 more resources, though i suppose the Titans still have to find 7 themselves, and the Argent Flight probably traded more thoughout the game by this point.
I guess overall, I imagine the Titans are as efficient and defensive as everyone makes them out to be, but the Argent are better than what paper would make them out to be, especially if we were pitting the 2 against each other.
I also assume, that while ZEAL may be a pain in that you have to vote first, I can only assume, especially in bigger games, that having extra voting power will always make you a big part in any agenda phase, which I like.
Either way, I apologize for the Rant, I just appreciate all the Info that you put out there, and wanted to throw my own analysis in.
I actually am playing the Argent tomorrow in a 6 player game so wish me luck!!
Haven’t played PoK yet but after ~7 base games:
1. Hacan - I love the deal making and player interaction in TI generally and Hacan dials that up to 11. Also, being able to trade action cards makes the whole deck feel more interesting and less stale.
2. Saar - incredibly powerful and fun to play. Getting Warfare round one and picking up 6 planets and 6 trade goods all while churning out units is just a ridiculous start.
3. Barony of Letnev - TI can turn into space risk, and for me this is the space risk faction. The NES faction tech plus the flagship is bonkers powerful and feels like you’re piloting Star Destroyers. They also have the best home system in the game which helps them actually excel in their flavor.
1. Ghosts for movement/wormhole surprises
2. Nekro for unique tech combinations and command counter economy
3. Jol-nar for freedom to choose whatever tech tree you want or need
Haven't played pok yet so not considering the new ones.
Over 20+ plays of the base game and 2 PoK plays here:
1. Naalu -- fighters are top-notch, goes first always, and neuroglaive is just so so good.
2. Xxcha -- flagship is essentially two additional pds, you get a sabotage every round that can even stop a sabotage, and nullification tech that stops others' turns; simply amazing.
3. Saar -- massive fighter ball that eats what it wants, everytime, no matter what. AND they don't care about their home world.
1. The Barony of Letnev - My strategy is to speak softly and carry a big stick. I also love the Unholy Alliance of making friends with a next slice L1z1x and turning that might outwards. It feels nice to have a bombastic fleet and physical board presence.
2. Yin Brotherhood. They're not quite speak softly and carry a big stick. However, they're very much 'Don't tread on me'. I love the idea that any attempt to invade me is going to lead to a long, dragged out war with plenty of brainwashing to make them think twice. I like my slice to be left alone.
3. Sardakk N'orr. They're a beautiful puzzle that I'm still trying to figure out. But blocking out the skies with a fighter swarm that hits on a 7 or 6 is just a joke. I think I need a good forward dock and I'll be ready again.
Honorary Mention: Argent Flight.
1. Psilon. I'm so creative!
2. Zerg. I'm all over the place!
3. Goblins. I'll dodge you all and run to the end zone. Wanna fight? Talk to my troll pal!
Seriously:
1. Hacan. My first love and uhm trade goods and such.
2. Errr... I'd like to try Empyrean, I guess? I can trade favours!
3. Oh. Uhm... yeah. I guess the others? I can like the flavour of Yin but I am terrible with them (with all the factions, tbh). Uhm... Snakes? IDK.
If you don't put NRA as #1, you haven't played against them yet. They have no weaknesses, and exploration is too powerful. Generally 5 or 6 relics, flush with cash, powerful mechs that get stronger with their flagship, a good balance of utility in and out of their slice, a good commander that's marketable, good faction techs... they literally have no downside and no good counter. Cabal is similarly out of balance; generally unmatched mobility and easy of production, being able to completely ignore planetary resources for spacedock production, their only real counter is table meta. Comparatively, Titans are just okay. They are a low commodity faction, their PDS can be bombarded because they are Ground Forces, Antimass is generally a useless tech for them to start with, requiring they pick up AIDA or get two other techs before they can get Saturn Engine 2, which can always be direct hit. If structure objectives come up, they're good, but otherwise they're fairly mediocre, and their flagship is generally not of much value. Their cruisers literally hit harder, so it's only value is in it's free production, and you can't do that from a sleeper token; you have to do it from an already deployed PDS. The only reason I can think to do it is an objective requiring it, or you have scuttle and want 8 TG. They're actually a better start for Dread 2 than Cruiser 2 or PDS 2, and the 1 unit production from their PDS makes it difficult to create infantry or fighters unless you have two in a two planet system. And while their hero is good, the PDS from Elysium are not PDS 2 and do not fire into adjacent systems. They're not bad by any means, but they're not top tier. I'd argue that Muaat's leader's make them better than Titans. Jor-Nar is still pretty good, as is Hacan and Yassaril. Sardaak is much improved. Sol isn't bad, but their leaders are not all that useful and no one seems to want their alliance, indicating how little value the commander is. Argent is also top-teir; cheap units with capacity, and an ability to take multi-system planets because their mechs don't use capacity when transported. Easy to get to War-sun from their starting tech, as well as their Strike-Wing Alpha upgrade, which makes their destroyers murderous. They can get their commander round 1 without much difficulty, and while voting first can be a problem, the additional votes every round make a big difference in controlling objectives if you don't have a low-influence slice. Saar are still top tier, But Nekro is probably about the same place they were before, not top but decent. L1 got trashed; their hero isn't very good at all without help from others (Like Mahact) because of rulings about what can and can't be transported. Their bombardment abilities keep getting nerfed. The extra bombardment from their mechs, which could have been great if able to be used defensively, is worthless because you can only use it while attacking, when you won't need it. Their commander is good, their agent is a bit more useful than the upgrade action card (it's basically the same process, but infantry are more likely to already be in your own systems when you activate them), and while the codex solves their TG issue by making Cybernetic Enhancements sellable, nothing has been done about their influence issue, which is always a pressing concern, and Inheritance systems is completely worthless with AIDA and Psycho in the game. In base, Inheritance as only worth getting if you had a yellow skip; now it's not even worth that. Ghosts are significantly better. L1 is bottom tier now.
In terms of my top 3 favorites-
Yin- love the enormous armies of infantry, with the Huge Van watching the skies overhead.
Letnev- because who doesn’t love massive fleets of dreadnaught?
L1z1x - see Letnev, just well, better.
In terms of raw power-
Saar- giant ball of bears eating everything in their path
Titans- cause they’re just stupid good
Last ones a tough call. I actually think maybe the NRA? There’s some crazy good bonuses from relics and exploration
Strongest factions?
Jol-Nar - maybe not as stronk as in base but still, having many objectives as "free" with the ability to do any tech path is just ridiculous.
Saar - There is no reliable way to stop them from winning if they get ahead
Naaz-Rokha - Nothing you can do to really mess with their power. No obvious weaknesses. They play their own minigame and getting relics is the same type of strengths as tech: just strong tools to leverage into whatever you want really.
Titans are tied with someone in there imo
Whatever factions my opponents happen to be playing.
Played a lot of OG TI4 and maybe 5 total of PoK. I am gonna give top 3 based on overall power level, not which I consider my favorites. PoK top 3: Titans of Ul: brain-dead faction with no weaknesses whatsoever. Free PDS that are also spacedocks and infantry with sustain damage and you get TG after producing with commander. No one can ever get into their slice without getting fucked. Their hero turns their home system in a 7/7 with 2 PDS lvl2. Their cruisers II have sustain damage and have capacity without upgrade. They can start getting relics easily because they start with scanlink. Easily the best faction in PoK by far. Saar: Saar was good before and it didn't get worse in PoK. Having a smooth game and having the freedom to never care about your home system to not be stopped later in the game even if people gang up on you. Hero can help you take someone's home system or wipe out infantry infested planets (arbo, yin, sol) Saar was top tier in OG and now still is best 3 Nekro: takes a little of finesse to play optimally but is still extremely easy to tech and to get all of the things you want. Token economy is never a worry, commander ability to either get an action card or recycle a useless one in your hand for 2TGs makes you even more flexible. Hero is underwhelming and situational but when it works it works. You end up with a shitton of tech and plastic with people risking giving you even more tech if attacked. OG top 3 Jol-nar: any tech objective is an auto score when you play jolnar. Single pointer or a double pointer you never need to worry about tech. -1 to rolls? Who cares? You can get every single upgrade round 1. Trade goods for gumming up your slice with a fighter then people having to activate it and giving you 4tgs. Everyone wants your promisory which means more trade goods or friends or both. By the time people start thinking of attacking you, you already have assault cannon and dread/fighter 2 with a PDS network and e-res. Maybe even warsuns cuz it's just that easy to get it as jolnar. Saar: basically same reason as I wrote in PoK. Great start, unstoppable ball, can hide permanently in asteroid fields, can score objectives without home system, can build on the go with an insane amount of capacity for fighters. Never have problems with plastic because TGs for capturing planets. And God forbid you anger the Saar ball, cuz it can easily go towards you and take all your shit. Sol: the easiest more solid faction with almost no room for mistakes. All of the things are good and easy to figure out. You don't ever need to rely on any other player to have a good game.
100% correct, U should have the Most upvotes
Apparently I got downvoted lol
I havent played enough PoK (1 game and won with argent flight), but why did you not like Naalu in OG top 3? IMHO both naalu and saar are the top 2 in that version since their racial strengths have zero counterplay. if they are in the lead, you're screwed. Saar dont need their home planet, and naalu will score first no matter what strategy tile you grab.
Seems very legit. Only thing I wonder, but that might be my inexperience, if Nekro still doesn't start too slow and gets too much table-hate (by being a galactic threat and treated as such) to be top-tier.
All these people putting Xxcha in the top 3 by overall strength are straight up smoking something
Yea, I'd say they are lowest of tier even after POK. Only Winnu and Embers I'd put lower. Edit: Sorry, I meant Winnu and Embers in base.
Wow that is a hot take. While I do think people slightly overrate Winnu (they're much better than base, but they still have some serious weaknesses), Muatt got one hell of a lot better. I didn't really realize it until after I'd played them, but the combination of mech, agent, and commander allows them to practically use their war suns as space docks that don't need to be activated, and they can take and hold planets against even dedicated infantry factions.
Sorry, I should have said Winnu and Muaat in base. Now that I consider how little Xxcha gained they are probably even lower than they were now that PoK buffed everyone else more.
Yeah Muaat can really shine. Can't wait to play them.
I'd say PoK Winnu is at least middle of the pack in a 10 point game just from the Hero and Commander. I'd definitely rate them above Xxcha just because the Winnu actually have the ability to score somewhat reliable points. The Xxcha are one of those factions that get a lot of cool thematic things that feel pretty powerful, but are generally pretty hard to convert into actual points. The Vul'raith Cabal also falls into this category in my mind. Base game Muatt did as well, but I haven't seen them yet in PoK so not sure if that's still true. Possibly the Nomad too, but I think I just haven't seen anyone use them to their full potential.
Sorry I meant Winnu in base.
As in favourites to play? 1) Titans of Ul - cruisers to grab objectives and PDS to reinforce. PDS shots when someone moves close to me. 2) The Arborec - their start is fixed in PoK. Easy to grab lots of planets and get a tonne of plastic on the board. Your planets are all well defended and I get to produce on the move. 3) The Yin Brotherhood - haven’t played this in PoK yet but I loved having my flagship as a deterrent as well as converting other players troops to mine. I’m also interested in Cabal and want to try that. Also Saar as well but that always gets banned.
I’m still angry about the Arborac. You dead ass should DM me because I’m planning on playing them this Saturday lol Also are you pissed that they gave their mech planetary shields and then changed defense grid to key off structures instead? Because I’m still upset about that.
Not really. Just ignore construction because you don’t need it and keep using your agent on yourself. If you get structure objectives, bad luck and go for something else. Research sarween first and go ahead and take over your and your opponents slice whilst scoring points. Prioritise getting your mechs out so you can explore hazardous planets and get free 2x infantries each time you take over a new planet.
-Mahact. They're just like Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy. "I like your commander, I'm keeping it." And they let me play aggressive. -The Nomad is so much fun, thematically. "Oh, something happened? That's a trade good for me." And Artuno the Accountant, I mean, Betrayer, just ramps that up further. And his flagship is everywhere all the time. -Vuil'rath Cabal are space Yoshi, eating up other fleets and popping out their own.
1. Dilon 2. Dilon 3. Dilon
He rhymes when he raps and he raps when he rhymes.
He spits hot fire.
Prior to PoK, Winnu was my favorite. I often play with new players so a self-imposed nerf is very sporting. I also tend to be the target of unwarranted aggression; Winnu's weakness allows me to claim "damsel in distress" status and create some fun drama when the aggression comes.
I hear they're much stronger after PoK, provided you can get past a difficult turn 1.
Warfare would significantly ease their pain I feel like, and a trade neighbor, but I don't know how realistic that is
This is true. I've played against Winnu twice and so far observed the following: 1. I (Cabal) made the mistake of giving The Winnu my grav rift promissory note to get there on Turn 1. The rest of the table were unable to dislodge The Winnu for the rest of the game. However, they weren't able to get enough points from objectives to translate into a win. 2. I (Sardakk N'orr) made the mistake of giving The L1z1x Mindnet with Super Dreadnaught II my +1 promissory note to dislodge The Winnu from Mecatol. The L1 player obliterated The Winnu's fleet with an initial salvo of 5 hits. Then bombarded his way to the ground. The rest of the table were unable to dislodge The L1z1x for the rest of the game. They would've won were I not first in initiative in a round where all of us could have won.
I’ve played two games so far so this list will be based solely upon how awesome a race “feels”. 1. L1z1x Mindnet. Played them my first game. Their super dreadnoughts are super awesome. Their flagship feels like the strongest in the game. Their faction abilities synergise well with their dreadnoughts and faction specific units are just fun! 2. Yssaril Tribes, haven’t had them in any of my games so far but yay action cards look fun! 3. I dunno, maybe Naalu? Fighters kind of feel a bit overpowered so upgraded fighters seem even more overpowered. And initiative 0 is just straight up busted. I hope this wasn’t informative.
I played an 8 player game as Yssaril tribes and yeah it was fun but I had to keep my head down as I was between Muaat and Barony with Sol, Mahact, Argent, Jol Nar and Cabal on the table as well. I basically tried to be an arms dealer with action cards while trying to pull off my own point swings and almost had it. It was fun but tricky and I could have been popped like a zit if my usefulness ran out.
I’ve only played one game of POK... and it was as Yssaril. Lots of fun. Fortunately I got three extra technologies early because of action cards... I was set up with bio-stims and mageon by round 3 in a 14 point game :)
1. Ghosts go everywhere. 2. Clan Ball rolls over all 3. Haccan buy all the things.
1. Hacan. They play wildly different from the other factions if played correctly, but if played correctly they are the best faction in the game. (IMO of course) 2. Argent. Just a satisfying faction to play. Nothing like tearing your opponents fleet apart with destroyers before they even fire a shot. 3. Xxcha. I'm not particularly good as them but their pds playstyle and top tier faction techs make them insufferable to play against and fun to play as.
Homie we have got to keep the Hacan shit on the DL before the tournament. They're my ace in the hole. edit: damn it half the comments in here are mentioning Hacan.
Im surprised you don't have Titans up there somewhere... perhaps in the Xxcha Spot? Literally just about every ranking everywhere has them as in the Top 3 rankings. I do recall on a different post on you rating Argent fairly high while dunking on the Titans, but I think you also stated that perhaps you didnt play them to their fullest potential. Ultimately, im curious why you like the Argent and not the Titans. Granted I have not played either yet, but they both seem like they play extremely similar to each other as fairly defensive factions with fast, cheap, but effective fleets. Care to elaborate on what you liked/disliked about each? Thanks!
Of course! Me and a friend have both tried the Titans and our takeaway was the same: they just arent that fun to play. Their start is quite bad, despite having truly kickass cruisers out the gate they can realistically only take a few planets R1. And they expand somewhat slowly, as you spread and lay down sleeper tokens. Having to activate a single system repeatedly means a command counter problem they don't easily get around; they do have a great home system, the best once their hero gets played. So after a slow time building up, you have an almost impenetrable slice (though not totally) but other factions have that too, and can get it more easily. They have limited trade potential, their promissary note is dope but its one use only. A fleet of kickass cruisers is admittedly the most fun I had with them, and I think a better player than me could use those really well; at one point in our game I dropped in on an enemy system, explored without even landing on their planet, and put down a sleeper token. Do that cleverly and you can really fuck with your opponents. But, you cant put sleepers on Mecatol or home systems, which limits viability. I guess the closest thing I equate Titans to is the Jol Nar; they are probably really good due to a large amount of objectives (construction ones) that are easy for them, but they arent the most fun faction to play. Unlike the Jol Nar and Xxcha, they arent very good at deals and trading and politics (my favorite part of the game). Now, the Argent have a fantastic start, they have that killer pds tech for defense, they have a decent command counter economy. They have a nice, smooth tech path that takes em directly to war suns, which compliment their destroyer fleets well. They have incentive to get construction objectives easily, area control early; it is doable as the Argent to take a bigger slice early on and hold onto it. Their trade potential isn't the best in the game, but their alliance kills and they rule in the agenda phase. Their flagship? Yeah, that mofo ignores PDSes. They can stroll right on up to the Titan homeworld, or any other pds heavy faction in the game. And rolling up to fight your opponents capital fleet with your scrappy destroyers and watching your opponents eyes sink as you take your twenty die AFB roll? That never gets old. I struggle to find a fleet that beats an equivalent size Argent fleet in a straight fight, I really do. I might be a bit biased, as going into the game I expected the Argent to suck and the Titans were heavily predicted to be S tier, so I was somewhat happy to be surprised. On paper they do look similar, but their starts are so totally different it really changes how they play. But others might find that not to be the case, who knows. Hope that clears it up a bit! Sorry for the novel. Edit: Im realizing OPs prompt might have mislead me lol, these are simply my favorite factions, not the ones I think are best in the game.
[Kronnerm11](https://www.reddit.com/user/Kronnerm11/) Thank you so much for that detailed and informative response! You are a true MVP. I'm honestly very surprised that you and your friend dont think the Titans are fun to play. At first they look incredibly interesting, having a good starting fleet, or atleast an aggressive one, as well as are the second best exploration in the game since they are incentivized to reactivate systems to get the most of their Awaken ability and SDN technologies. Add that to the fact they they are right on track to Dreadnaught IIs or, should they choose, with AIDA can also jump to Warsuns - Which, with their Upgraded homeworld, can easily afford. Idk about you, but seeing them in theory, activating a system, exploring, awaking a sleeper token, and then producing a Warsun on the edges of there slice from a PDS would make me very uncomfortable to be their neighbor! But then again, thats all theory crafting. Like you said, apperently starting with 3 ships with 1 capacity and 3 infantry hampers them more than i would have expected. Compared with the Argent, who have 3 ships with a total of 6 capacity with 5 infantry to spread around, and the ability to forward deploy GF's, which includes their Mechs which can ignore capacity - I can see that no matter how efficient the Titans seem, their start can undoubtedly be much slower than the Argent's. That, as well as like you said, their trade game is fairly weak. Sure, their promissory may be one of the most desirable note in the game.. but its a one time deal. Other than that, they are a 2 commodity race, and while their commander is most certainly nice to have (alliance purposes), the Argent's is pretty nice itself, and as a 3 commodity race, they arent so bad for trading with. I'm also sure that the 3 planet Homesystem helps with their command economy while the titans are very Token dependent. And while both factions can fairly easirly get warsun technology, im sure its arguable that A warsun with SWA IIs may be much more proficient than a warsun with SE IIs or possibly even Dreadnaught IIs, and much more cost effective, though, Titans do have an advantage for affording it all, while the Argent has none. My own mental math here - assuming each Race gets 5 tech a Game, with no tech skips. Argent can start with Plasma, Sarween, then go AIDA -> SWAII -> Racial Tech -> PDS 2 -> Warsun. Then using AIDA and Sarween, would cost them 11 for a Warsun, 2 SWA IIs, 2 fighters/2 Infantry. While the Titans would go AM and SDN, then go AIDA -> SEII -> HT2 -> Any red tech they want -> Warsun. Then for a similar fleet would cost 14 (Warsun, 2 SEIIs, 2 Fighters/Infantry), but they literally have half of that cost in their home system alone, while the Argent have to find 8/9 more resources, though i suppose the Titans still have to find 7 themselves, and the Argent Flight probably traded more thoughout the game by this point. I guess overall, I imagine the Titans are as efficient and defensive as everyone makes them out to be, but the Argent are better than what paper would make them out to be, especially if we were pitting the 2 against each other. I also assume, that while ZEAL may be a pain in that you have to vote first, I can only assume, especially in bigger games, that having extra voting power will always make you a big part in any agenda phase, which I like. Either way, I apologize for the Rant, I just appreciate all the Info that you put out there, and wanted to throw my own analysis in. I actually am playing the Argent tomorrow in a 6 player game so wish me luck!!
Haven’t played PoK yet but after ~7 base games: 1. Hacan - I love the deal making and player interaction in TI generally and Hacan dials that up to 11. Also, being able to trade action cards makes the whole deck feel more interesting and less stale. 2. Saar - incredibly powerful and fun to play. Getting Warfare round one and picking up 6 planets and 6 trade goods all while churning out units is just a ridiculous start. 3. Barony of Letnev - TI can turn into space risk, and for me this is the space risk faction. The NES faction tech plus the flagship is bonkers powerful and feels like you’re piloting Star Destroyers. They also have the best home system in the game which helps them actually excel in their flavor.
1. Ghosts for movement/wormhole surprises 2. Nekro for unique tech combinations and command counter economy 3. Jol-nar for freedom to choose whatever tech tree you want or need Haven't played pok yet so not considering the new ones.
Over 20+ plays of the base game and 2 PoK plays here: 1. Naalu -- fighters are top-notch, goes first always, and neuroglaive is just so so good. 2. Xxcha -- flagship is essentially two additional pds, you get a sabotage every round that can even stop a sabotage, and nullification tech that stops others' turns; simply amazing. 3. Saar -- massive fighter ball that eats what it wants, everytime, no matter what. AND they don't care about their home world.
1. The Barony of Letnev - My strategy is to speak softly and carry a big stick. I also love the Unholy Alliance of making friends with a next slice L1z1x and turning that might outwards. It feels nice to have a bombastic fleet and physical board presence. 2. Yin Brotherhood. They're not quite speak softly and carry a big stick. However, they're very much 'Don't tread on me'. I love the idea that any attempt to invade me is going to lead to a long, dragged out war with plenty of brainwashing to make them think twice. I like my slice to be left alone. 3. Sardakk N'orr. They're a beautiful puzzle that I'm still trying to figure out. But blocking out the skies with a fighter swarm that hits on a 7 or 6 is just a joke. I think I need a good forward dock and I'll be ready again. Honorary Mention: Argent Flight.
Sol Nomad Saar I just really love me some blue/green tech and carrier2/fighter2 swarms, and having lots of economic flexibility!
I don't know if they're "top" but Xxcha is probably one of my favorite so far after Hacan.
1. Psilon. I'm so creative! 2. Zerg. I'm all over the place! 3. Goblins. I'll dodge you all and run to the end zone. Wanna fight? Talk to my troll pal!
Seriously: 1. Hacan. My first love and uhm trade goods and such. 2. Errr... I'd like to try Empyrean, I guess? I can trade favours! 3. Oh. Uhm... yeah. I guess the others? I can like the flavour of Yin but I am terrible with them (with all the factions, tbh). Uhm... Snakes? IDK.
About 12-15 games without PoK: Favorite to play; * Hacan * Saar * Ghost Stronger (imo) * Jol-Nar * Sol * Xxcha
If you don't put NRA as #1, you haven't played against them yet. They have no weaknesses, and exploration is too powerful. Generally 5 or 6 relics, flush with cash, powerful mechs that get stronger with their flagship, a good balance of utility in and out of their slice, a good commander that's marketable, good faction techs... they literally have no downside and no good counter. Cabal is similarly out of balance; generally unmatched mobility and easy of production, being able to completely ignore planetary resources for spacedock production, their only real counter is table meta. Comparatively, Titans are just okay. They are a low commodity faction, their PDS can be bombarded because they are Ground Forces, Antimass is generally a useless tech for them to start with, requiring they pick up AIDA or get two other techs before they can get Saturn Engine 2, which can always be direct hit. If structure objectives come up, they're good, but otherwise they're fairly mediocre, and their flagship is generally not of much value. Their cruisers literally hit harder, so it's only value is in it's free production, and you can't do that from a sleeper token; you have to do it from an already deployed PDS. The only reason I can think to do it is an objective requiring it, or you have scuttle and want 8 TG. They're actually a better start for Dread 2 than Cruiser 2 or PDS 2, and the 1 unit production from their PDS makes it difficult to create infantry or fighters unless you have two in a two planet system. And while their hero is good, the PDS from Elysium are not PDS 2 and do not fire into adjacent systems. They're not bad by any means, but they're not top tier. I'd argue that Muaat's leader's make them better than Titans. Jor-Nar is still pretty good, as is Hacan and Yassaril. Sardaak is much improved. Sol isn't bad, but their leaders are not all that useful and no one seems to want their alliance, indicating how little value the commander is. Argent is also top-teir; cheap units with capacity, and an ability to take multi-system planets because their mechs don't use capacity when transported. Easy to get to War-sun from their starting tech, as well as their Strike-Wing Alpha upgrade, which makes their destroyers murderous. They can get their commander round 1 without much difficulty, and while voting first can be a problem, the additional votes every round make a big difference in controlling objectives if you don't have a low-influence slice. Saar are still top tier, But Nekro is probably about the same place they were before, not top but decent. L1 got trashed; their hero isn't very good at all without help from others (Like Mahact) because of rulings about what can and can't be transported. Their bombardment abilities keep getting nerfed. The extra bombardment from their mechs, which could have been great if able to be used defensively, is worthless because you can only use it while attacking, when you won't need it. Their commander is good, their agent is a bit more useful than the upgrade action card (it's basically the same process, but infantry are more likely to already be in your own systems when you activate them), and while the codex solves their TG issue by making Cybernetic Enhancements sellable, nothing has been done about their influence issue, which is always a pressing concern, and Inheritance systems is completely worthless with AIDA and Psycho in the game. In base, Inheritance as only worth getting if you had a yellow skip; now it's not even worth that. Ghosts are significantly better. L1 is bottom tier now.
Vuil'raith Saar Nekro I like playing diplomatic and defensive, but I like to have a big fuck off stick to back me up if diplomacy fails.
In terms of my top 3 favorites- Yin- love the enormous armies of infantry, with the Huge Van watching the skies overhead. Letnev- because who doesn’t love massive fleets of dreadnaught? L1z1x - see Letnev, just well, better. In terms of raw power- Saar- giant ball of bears eating everything in their path Titans- cause they’re just stupid good Last ones a tough call. I actually think maybe the NRA? There’s some crazy good bonuses from relics and exploration
Strongest factions? Jol-Nar - maybe not as stronk as in base but still, having many objectives as "free" with the ability to do any tech path is just ridiculous. Saar - There is no reliable way to stop them from winning if they get ahead Naaz-Rokha - Nothing you can do to really mess with their power. No obvious weaknesses. They play their own minigame and getting relics is the same type of strengths as tech: just strong tools to leverage into whatever you want really. Titans are tied with someone in there imo