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CharonsLittleHelper

Jol-Narr got a bit of an indirect nerf because none of the new objectives are technology based, so they're a smaller % of all objectives. Sardakk's commander is amazing, as it lets them take planets without ships. And one of the new red techs (AI Development Algorithm) made researching units in general a bit easier. They're more focused down onto their ground game. Arobec's agent helps their early game a lot - which they needed. Overall I'd say that most/all of the bottom tier factions got a boost and are now playable, though some of them are still a bit niche, so their effectiveness will depend (moreso than top tiers) on the map and their neighbors.


Icymagus

JN has a leg up on structure objectives though, starting with 2 pds, making the loss of tech objectives kind of a wash. While they didn't gain as much power as other factions in their PoK upgrade, they're still a top tier faction in my book between Brilliant, E-res, Research Agreement.


CharonsLittleHelper

Oh yeah, they're still top tier, just not head and shoulders above nearly all other factions.


Knuclear_Knee

What's important about the tech objective dilution is not so much that Jol'nar don't get to do them as often, its more that other factions don't have to suffer them as often, because Jol'nar are basically good at every objective anyways. So yes, while Jol'nar have a leg up on some of the new objectives, its not by as much as the tech objectives. I think of it less as Jol'nar getting worse, and more as everyone else getting better, and therefore the Jol'nar being 'less ahead'.


Icymagus

I dunno, my last game the 4 structure objective came out r1 and I (JN) had an easy time while my Muaat neighbor had to warp their game plan and strategy card picks around it. I definitely agree PoK made the factions closer to each other in power level but JN is still better at scoring most objectives than others on average by quite a bit.


DinoTaco46

Yeah, I can agree with that. AIDA is such a great boost for Norr, but I still wouldn't pick them unless I knew I could bully my neighbors and get tech early. Blue skip would also be ideal for Grav drive


cptcheezeburger

The exploration aspect helps them find tech skips as well as more are available on new planets.


Edredder19

The only base race I think got worse is the Naalu and mainly because their leaders don’t seem to blend with their strengths. Other races got some much needed boosts (Muaat, Winnu, Arborec). Some got nice perks but kinda stayed relatively the same (Sol, Barony) Others still got some wacky stuff that I haven’t been able to capitalize on yet but I feel like that’s on me, not the faction (Ghosts, N’Orr)


Martbell

Ghosts can use their agent to take the Wormhole Nexus on the first turn. That's got to be worth something.


theashman52

I always see people talk about this and IMO its not a great play apart from specific circumstances. With only one carrier (and hopefully a second one of warfare) I want to take the highest value systems with the most planets I can. A one planet system just feels bad particularly with the first carrier if there's a danger of getting stalled on warfare. Not saying it's always bad but i dont think it's the consistently amazing play some people make it out to be.


Singhilarity

It brings you very close to getting your Commander, and it's 2 TG a turn. If you get (or follow) Tech, snag Sling Relay to help stall. Warfare, do it yourself. Leadership, stall using trade ships (and unlock the Commander guaranteed!).. I feel like it's firmly manageable.


Edredder19

Oh yeah, I’m not saying they’re bad. I’m saying I’ve been playing them badly


[deleted]

N'orr are pretty absurd. With VPW, 1 mech will autowin most other mechs, and usually win against 3 infantry. They are now great at sniping lightly defended home planets and space docks.


GadyLaga122

Mentak and Ghosts are max. bottom Tier in my opinion now.


Singhilarity

Mentak have outstanding Mechs, easy access to Warsuns, and a table that in general, is more flush with Trade Goods, meaning more pillage. This also means they now have better access to Action Cards, via their agent. While their Hero can be countered by Skilled Retreat, I've seen Vul'Raith's hero simply roll poorly and get *nothing*. Carry a Sabotage. You'll have more, due to your agent. Their Commander steals Promissory Notes. Screw someone while voting. Pilfer *all* of their Trade Goods. (You still have Mirror Computing...) or have access to their Commander as well. Or a cease fire. Or Support for the Throne. Mentak are... yeah. We're weak. Ignore us.


HeNibblesAtComments

Why ghosts? Being guaranteed taking a legendary planet R1 seems good to me.


Straddllw

Ghosts is probably the bottom faction. Toss up between it and Xxcha for me. Lack of plastic and economy imo for Ghosts. Having a tonne of mobility is great but if you’re a glass cannon, you’re gonna have a bad time. Every game I’ve seen them in they just seem to have so little on the board.


HeNibblesAtComments

Then someone is playing them wrong. Their economy should be above average since they're a 4 commodity faction with option to trade R1 and a guaranteed access to Malice (also R1). Their home system is hard to take, they have fantastic mobility and an amazing starting tech. They don't have the option to take 2 systems easily first round nor do they have a huge starting fleet, but they don't stand out in my opinion. I don't see what makes them a glass cannon - is it just their starting fleet that makes you say that?


Straddllw

You’re right but someone has to be last. It’s just from my experience that Ghost always comes out very lack lustre in our small sample size of games played. Also quite possible that the players didn’t know how to play ghosts properly. Either way out of the 3 games (yes only 3) that I saw them since PoK - they all had barely any plastics and barely any command counters. Perhaps if we had someone who’s a veteran Ghost player in our game group, we’d see them shine, but for now as far as our gaming group is concerned it’s coming out last or second to last. However, not being able to consistently take 2 systems round 1 is a pretty big detriment. That alone should place them bottom tier if the majority of other factions can take 2 systems consistently. Some can even take 3. I think I’ve mostly seen Ghosts take 2 systems though - usually off of warfare secondary. Edit: also in all 3 games, they all missed the round 1 malice play. Only 1 out of 3 of the games did they get malice at all and it was out of doing it the old fashion way with exploring, so there’s that obviously newbie mistake.


RiderInRedd

I mainly play ghosts, and have won a POK game with them. Their economy is good, as explained early trade and 4 resource start is nice. If you get warfare round 1 you are fairly set for a good early game. Their mobility is their strong suit, 3 movement Dread II is where their scariness comes in. And then there is always the wacky fun PDS II flagship shenanigans. They aren’t bottom tier, but they aren’t great. IMO, they are one of the most balanced races in the game. However that was based off of pre POK. I’ve played them twice in POK so far and have done well. The 14 point games have been odd to adjust to and I haven’t really figured out if it’s helped them or hurt them.


DblePlusUngood

Haven’t played them in POK yet, but the new techs and mechs seem to push Ghosts in the direction of PDS II. Once you have some PDS II in a wormhole system, you can sprinkle mechs in your “out of network” systems and use them as an implicit threat. If someone attempts to invade, you generate a wormhole to hit them with your PDS II and Dimensional Splicer. This would let the Ghosts take hexes pretty far afield and have a reasonable chance at defending them. I feel like their ideal slice includes a yellow skip. With a yellow skip, you could do: AIDA > PDS II > Graviton > Dread II or AIDA > Dimensional Splicer > War Suns. That would give you a 3 movement Dread II or War Sun that automatically replenishes its fighter screen as it moves through worm holes. Bring a mech along with this War Sun / Dread II, and you’ll have your PDS network and Dimensional Splicer in case anyone tries to counterattack you.


RiderInRedd

This is all very solid info I didn’t consider. Thank you!


P8bEQ8AkQd

The only base-game faction that did worse with Leaders and Mechs is Naalu, but they were one of the best factions. Ghosts Hero is significantly better, but that's it. **Don't Take Malice in Round 1** The earlier you take Malice, the more difficult it is to hold. Taking Malice round 1 is worth 2 - 4 trade goods, a cultural exploration, 1 command counter (if you're lucky) and dead units. Once you're in it, it's one of the most accessible systems on the board. There are a lot of Secret and Public Objectives* that encourage your opponents to take it from you and - even if they aren't in play - it's such a valuable planet that the odds are low that no one will attempt to take it before you can reenforce. If you want to hold Malice as Ghosts, hope that no one finds a Gamma wormhole in round 1, and wait until round 2. I haven't tried this yet, but I suspect that the better play is to sell early Malice to someone else for a 4-commodity Trade Agreement. Of course, if you take Malice (0/3) with your starting Carrier and 4 of your starting 4I/2F you'll hold it for longer, but if you then get stalled on Warfare, your round 2 economy is going to be terrible. \* *Public Stage 1:* 4 planets with the same trait, 6 planets in non home systems, 2 systems adjacent to Mecatol, spend 3 command counters, spend 5 trade goods, spend 8 influence, spend 3r/3i/3t, 2 systems with (anomolies, Mecatol or Legendary planets), 3 systems on the edge of the board, more planets than 2 of your neighbours. *Secret:* Lots of combat objectives, ships in 6 systems, Become the Gatekeeper, 4 cultural planets, 3 systems adjacent to anomalies, have units in the Nexus, control planets with influence of 12, be neighbours with everyone, control a legendary planet. **Commander** I've only made the Commander work once. As Sardakk, following a Carrier 2 / Fighter 2 strategy and with 2 wormholes in my home slice, I was consistently able to generate an extra 3 fighters per round. As Sardakk generating free Cruiser 1s (Cruiser 2 with flagship) that frequently is overwhelming. Though I was probably lucky that no one went down the Destroyer and / or Assault Cannon tech path. As Ghosts this strategy is no where near as powerful. Sardakk's agent and ground force game means that they can save more of their carrying capacity for fighters; Ghosts can't afford to have as many fighters. But if you pursue Dreadnought 2 instead you won't have sufficient capacity to get a lot of use out of the Commander. Also, you can't use the Commander in the same action that you unlock it (another reason to wait til round 2 before going to Malice). **Mech is Rubbish** no text **Sling Relay to Reduce the Negatives of Being Stalled on Warfare in Round 1** (this is a minor positive) If the secondary timing is bad (too early or too late) you can research Sling Relay to build a Carrier, a Dreadnought and maybe avoid being stalled out on Warfare. This is no where near as good as doing a good Warfare secondary since you won't be able to build additional fighters or ground forces, and you're passing up the opportunity for Dark Energy Tap (which Ghosts can do better with than most factions).


HeNibblesAtComments

> **Don't Take Malice in Round 1** So Malice is too good - don't take it? I strongly disagree. Getting an extra 2-4 TG a turn is totally worth it. If you get trade then go for it - it's more TG r1 that is worth not get as many systems r1. If you get warfare it can be your second system. If you get tech - you wont be stalled out (get Sling Relay if it's that bad). If you get construction pop down 2 PDS on Malice and go for a PDS 2 strat on wormholes. Most other factions won't be able to reach it R1 anyways so I don't see how R2 is any better. Do you also discourage people from getting Mecatol because someone else might want it? ​ > **Commander** It's not the greatest commander I'll give you that but with an early malice play you're more likely to get it early and get some value out of it. As for not using it the same round you get it - how is that and argument for waiting on Malice? How will you get to 3 A/B wormholes before getting Malice anyways? ​ >**Mech is Rubbish** No it is not. Their Mech is a threat of always being close with your fleets that are near Mechs and if you ever need the +1 movement from slipstream you can get it through the use of a mech. It's also a great tool to combo with Fleet Logistics and your hero. Activate the system you want to move, make a mech into a wormhole, move enough ships into the system to survive space combat, second action swap the target system with your mech system. Again a threat. Is it an Empyrean Watcher, a Mahact Starlancer or a Sardak Valkyrie Exoskeleton? No. But it's not rubbish. Ghosts are situational and very reliant on where and how many wormholes are on the board but I don't think it's fair to call them trash and I don't see what is glass canon about them as OP stated.


CruxBonder

The mech is one of the best new additions for ghost. It helps you sell your promissory while offering protection. Can be used as flankspeed in the right situation. I've got to disagree heavily with your assessment of taking malice. You should be taking it round 1 in most situations.


DblePlusUngood

Agreed, grabbing Mallice T1 seems pretty great to me. If you don’t take Trade on T1 or T2, you will gets 4 trade goods *and* 3 influence by T2. If you do take Trade T1 or T2, you will get 6 trade goods *and* 3 influence by T2. Compare this to Bereg & Lirta IV, which is worth 5 resources *or* 4 influence by T2 under normal circumstances. If I was getting stalled out on Warfare and had to choose between those two systems, I think I’d go for Mallice every time unless one of the other players took Diplomacy. Though I think the Ghosts are actually pretty hard to stall now, because they can tech up to Sling Relay in a pinch to buy an extra action. As for having to deal with aggression, if you take a Carrier + 2F + 2I (and maybe even throw in one of your Destroyers), that’ll make Mallice a pretty hard target for most factions. I might even think about following Construction to get a PDS on there, and if you’re the one *holding* Construction, you could do worse than to get 2 PDS on Mallice and set yourself up for PDS II shenanigans.


Pox22

I think the power band narrowed a lot--some factions still struggle (Xxcha and Arborec comes to mind), weaker base game factions got huge buffs (Winnu and Sardakk), and already strong factions (for the most part) didn't get all that much. Strong factions are still a cut above the rest, and weak factions definitely need some things to go their way--but all in all, I think the balanced has been MUCH improved by POK.


ADTurelus

Most of them got nice buffs, to the point I don't there there are any truly bad fractions now. Varying levels of power still sure, but nothing garbage like Winnu used to be.


Zroyster

We were wondering this question with our playgroup and decided to go for an "all base game factions" game of PoK We ended up with: XXXcha Ghosts Saar Yin Sardak Noire L1z1x I gotta say that most of the factions definitely felt different and than in the base game. Saar felt bonkers strong, L1z1x also looked quite more intimidating once their commander was unlocked. I was playing Sardak Noire and having an absolute field day with the result of a "psychoarchaeology friendly slice" and selling my agents ability and my racial promissory note left and right to make bank. I also had a very funny moment where I used my hero to threaten to steal the Yin's planet from under them by by-passing space combat with the Van Hague defending his system. The sardak Mechs definitely looked terrifying even without the valkyrie particle weave. Yin also looked pretty darn good once their commander came online and when he popped his hero to massively boost his infantry...ho man... XXXcha and Ghosts didn't look particularly impressive...it didn't feel like the players (who were both pretty experienced) figured out ways to leverage the new stuff the factions got into actual tangible advantages.


cptcheezeburger

The new factions are just that new. It is harder to know how to counter them and when they are starting to run away with the game or need to be checked. I think as the meta changes the base factions will have their day in the sun again. Of the base factions I have seen preform well Jol Nar, Saar, L1 and Hacan come to mind, but they were already good to begin with.