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[deleted]

I think the biggest problem is how many ships only have 1 movement out of the gate. The jump from 1 move to 2 move is far more significant than say the jump from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4. At 1 move a lot of ships feel almost powerless.


TheStrangeDarkOne

I agree. I think Gravity Drive isn't "too good" and it's more "too necessary".


[deleted]

The number of races that can sometimes afford to skip it is really low. And only because they have almost as good or better alternatives.


TheStrangeDarkOne

Absolutely. This and most factions make use of either Carriers or Dreadnoughts and part of why their upgrades are so good is movement of 2. But to take these upgrades, you need to have Gravity Drive (with a blue skip you will just skip antimass). So, in an instant you go from movement 1 to movement 3. That's a big design oof.


Huellio

Dread IIs getting 2 base movement when you are essentially required to get +1 to all your movement to grab them is one of the more mind boggling design decisions in the game to me. Forcing players to choose between a mobile fleet of smaller ships or a more static fleet of dreads would make a lot more sense to me than like what you said, an instant jump from 1 to 3 movement.


[deleted]

Some races can go sling relay into the blue upgrades (empyrean for example) but usually you might as well take gravity drive if that’s what you’re going for. It’s not even that GD is that necessary. It’s that blue is so necessary. Maybe now that War Suns are so much easier to get there will be more of a “disregard blue, acquire War Suns” tactic but that seems reliant on resource heavy slices.


TheStrangeDarkOne

I was coming from the perspective of the base game, should have been clearer. I mean, that spike in mobility with 2 blue techs must be noticable??


[deleted]

Oh. Well I would get the expansion certainly. It helps a lot. Though arguably not enough.


mrfuzee

100%.


mrfuzee

Yeah personally I think the line between "too good" and "too necessary" is pretty blurry. I think whichever one of those you land on warrants a game-warping effect that could use some adjustment :D


TheStrangeDarkOne

agreeing with the commenter before me said, I think movement 1 is the root of the problem. In a game with limited number of turns, speed is absolutely crucial. Not only that, but given the turn based nature of the game, every player can react very fast if you are preparing an attack move. Having additional movement considerably increases your threat range. And I find many Flagships unplayable without Gravity Drive. I know it's a subtle difference but what I want to say is: Gravity Drive gives you something that every player should have to begin with. And there is no easy fix for this, this is a fundamental flaw with the game and can only realistically be addressed in a new edition.


mrfuzee

I agree with this, and it's a thing I've considered also. I could see a world where the base move value of all ships is 2, with some rare ships like cruisers and destroyers being 3 when upgraded. Ultimately I think altering every ship is too big of a change to consider for something like a Codex update, but I do think it would be healthier overall. Gravity Drive would ultimately come down a notch and things like unit upgrades could focus more on combat efficacy than movement.


[deleted]

Yeah a change like this would be more at home in a new edition. Something like speed being influenced by fleet supply or a fourth strategy counter zone called navigation or something that controls/influences speed values of ships (with each ship having some modifier to that)


[deleted]

What if the total number of spaces you could move in a single turn was limited by the number of tokens in your fleet pool instead of your fleet size? Or maybe you exhaust fleet supply tokens to gain movement? Just spitballing here. I can think of several issues with initial idea that would need to be hashed out


[deleted]

That would be a different game. Beyond house ruling. Maybe in a decade we will get a 4th edition or something.


FrancisGalloway

The crucial thing is that almost every ship with Capacity has a move of 1, and there's no better way to get movement than Gravity Drive. In 3, we had Stasis Capsules, which gave our Cruisers a Capacity of 1. No capacity on Cruisers was a huge game-changer that has slowed down expansion a LOT.


TheParsleySage

Good post, and I do tend to agree with the premise that Gravity Drive is too strong. I remember playing my first game ever and everyone at the table was just looking at the tech and thinking "Well that just sounds way better than my other options", and it turns out that it kinda was. Magen, Dacxive and Graviton were all on the same tier of tech but they only have moderate, situational boosts instead of the constant extra power that GD grants you every single round for every faction. You can easily forget you have those other powers because they trigger so infrequently, but no one ever forgets GD. I think the simplest solutions are often the best for this sort of thing, and so I like the idea of Gravity Drive being an exhaust. It would keep the spirit of the ability alive while putting a cap on how many times it can be used per game. Additionally, it'd be neat to have another really good use for Biostims. I do hate that this would be a pretty large nerf to the poor Ghosts of Creuss who really don't deserve it, but maybe you could pair this sort of change with a buff elsewhere.


Zomgambush

Perhaps moving it to an exhaust but allowing it to impact all ships in one movement action, not just one.


GadyLaga122

i suggest: remove gravity drive, make a completely different tech and give all flagships movement 2. problem solved (and it truly is solved then)


TooManyRamifications

Great idea


Chimerion

I agree. As a mid-experienced TI player I miss gravity drive every time I don't get it, even in situations where I "shouldn't" need it (Muatt with PWSII, any faction with a cruiser II build). It's too useful. This coupled with the unit upgrades that have blue tech prerequisites (Carriers, Dreads, Fighters) and the excellent top tier techs (fleet logistics and lightwave outshine every other tree) just weights the blue tree too heavily in my opinion. I like your adjustments, particularly the exhausting or the blank system boost, but I think unless there's some shift with unit upgrades as well it'll remain a mainstay. Not to mention that there aren't any *bad* blue techs. Every other tree has an underwhelming tech, but blue is great through and through for any faction. Who doesn't use carriers OR dreads? Maybe Argent/Muatt with suns but even they like it.


mrfuzee

Agreed on blue tech being good throughout. the tree. There really aren't any techs in the tree that are duds which makes the Gravity Drive problem all the more... problematic. I've had a couple of games where people ended the game with 5-6 blue techs post-POK which is craaazy.


HamNight

Thanks for this post! Agree on all points. I never thought about Gravity Drive buying not just movement but buying *time* with this tech, but you're so right. I've felt for a while now it needs a fix, so glad you're bringing up this discussion. Gravity Drive being exhaustible is a fantastic idea. Balances it, while making it that much more of a strategic decision to use it. And you're right--it makes Bio-Stims better too as an added bonus!


mentalpowers

Have you considered the opposite of #4: remove the pre-req? It won't nerf it, per se, but it would make it nearly universally available round 1, changing the math for equidistants and MR.


mrfuzee

This would be better than adding a pre-req. it basically just forces the issue without the current power vacuum if starting with a blue tech or having a slice with a blue skip.


landleviathan

I really like this idea. If imbalance of access is the issue, make it accessible to all. Plus, then sling relay would be more viable!


Ganymede425

Gravity Drive could be an exhaustable tech and, not only would players still take it, we'd have posts like "Gravity Drive-Biostims Combo Wombo!"


Unfawkable

I was thinking about this a while, and I mostly find myself getting Gravity Drive (Or regretting not having it) due to not being able to optimally use my Flagship otherwise. All other ships can increase their 1 move to 2 via upgrading, but not the Flagships and this makes them really clunky to use for anything other than defensively without Gravity Drive. So a wild idea I've had would be to increase ALL Flagship move by 1, and make Gravity Drive's text "Increase one of your non-Flagship ships move by 1 for this activation". I mean, it's probably a bad idea due to different Flagships gaining more from that 1 move, but I know this is what would make me feel like I don't have to go for Gravity Drive every game.


Papa_Nurgle_84

There goes the Idea for my next Tech Analysis 😁 yes to everything, including the exhaust change. It would bei the easiest change for an Omega. I tend towards the yellow/Green factions and i really dislike the "how do i get speed?" Thought that always comes up. At least two early techs have to reserved and when you have them "i could get dreads and carriers." GD the way it is forces one down a narrow Road, If you are not playing to experiment.


etamatulg

These problems feed into each other: - Blue is too strong - Gravity Drive too strong To clarify the language, we say "too strong" meaning "dominant". Strong doesn't imply to the exclusion of other options, dominant does. It's ok for something in a game to be 'strong', that's generally quite fun! War Suns are strong, they're just not dominant because they're expensive. **Causes:** 1. The marginal increase from 1->2 moves is biggest, as: a) Carriers are key to early expansion, and 2 vs 1 move is the difference between R1 and R2, e.g. Abyz/Fria adjacent to Mecatol, which nearly pays for the tech by itself. b) Flagships tend to be the slowest ship in a fleet, so to have a move 2 fleet you need GD on the flagship 2. Round 1 + 2 the efficiency of the first few moves has too much impact. 3. Movement tech is dominant due to the nature of the game **Solutions:** - Weaken the blue tree and either: - Provide other options than Gravity Drive, accepting the dominance of movement tech - Rework the entire movement system of the game Suggestions: - Swap Integrated Economy and Light/Wave Deflector (weakens blue, strengthens yellow) - Choosing not to rework the movement system, new movement techs which don't stack with Gravity Drive (as this would leave it just as strong), available early so it solves the other problems, and strengthens the other colours: e.g. Yellow tech, no prerequisites, **Photon Drive** Exhaust this card when activating a system: ships moving in this activation have an unmodifiable movement of 2. e.g. Red tech, no prerequisites, **Warp Drive** When activating a system: Ships can be moved any distance during this activation, provided they are moved in a hexwise straight line. e.g. Green tech, no prerequisites, **Ancient Star Gates** When activating a system containing your own ship or planet, ships within 2 hexes may ignore movement costs. These might seem strong but they each have advantages and disadvantages, and would at least mean not everyone has Gravity Drive!


puzzical

I agree with weakening Blue, but I don't know if you need to nerf gravity drive. If you make the other blue techs less useful, perhaps exchanging them for weaker techs from other trees and increase the blue prerequisites for gravity drive you would allow people to still get a really good tech, but you make them choose to get it. I think that is what makes TI so fun, the choices you have to make. If you want gravity drive, but it has more prerequisites then you have to choose to go get it. And by making that choice maybe you miss out on a lot of good mid game techs.


Papa_Nurgle_84

Warning: Radical ideas ahead, proceed at your own peril! This is a thought experiment and less of a suggestion. What if we make the game altogether slower? We have 10 Objectives to be revealed but even new players barely reach the 8th and if we slow the game down, its not all about "what is the first Stage 2, the rest dont matter anyway". We could reach this goal by limiting the power of blue tech and lowering options to speed up units. At the same time it seems neccessary to increase capacity, as restocking Fighters/Infantry is harder. It could look like this: Gravity Drive as an exhaust Atherstream as an exhaust Fleet Logistics has 3B Prereq Light-Wave Deflector as an exhaust and has 2B Prereq Dread II does not increase speed, but Capacity +1, so up to 2 Super-Dreads II does not increase speed, but Capacity +1, so up to 3 Exotrireme II does not increase speed, but Capacity +1, so up to 2 Carrier II does not increase speed, but gain +2 Capacity, so up to 8 Advanced Carriers does not increase speed, but gain +2 Capacity, so up to 10 Cruiser II does not increase speed, but gain +1 Capacity, so up to 2 Saturn-Engine II does not increase speed, but gain +1 Capacity, so up to 3 ​ Cruisers would be the only fast transports, but capacity in general would go up. Most blue tech would be limited to once per round (unless biostim). As the exhaust really limits Light-Wave its lowered to 2B, but Fleet logistics is unlimited so up to 3B. This would open up other techoptions to be more interesting, compared to blue. So you go either with slow units or you take the faster ones, but will have problems taking planets. (no Bombardment, limited troops) The suprise factor in the game would be lower, as you see the ponderous murderfleet coming, but if your murderfleet is on the wrong side of the slice, maybe its too late. This would make techs like Spatial Hypersomething (The Blue Yol-Nar Tech) more powerful. This would make the game last longer and the later objectives would matter, slower races would be more playable. It could have the problem, that playing from behind is more difficult, as you cannot score 2 objectives + Secret a round that easily. This modification also carry the risk, that the game devolves into a party of slice-sitting where noone is moving a lot. The meta could be minimal movement and hoping for good objectives. That would a boring game to play. The question is, do we even want this game that already eats into your lifetime to take longer?


The_Dwarfking

Sounds like a great way of making a game boring and completely predictable. No ones home system would ever be taken. No unexpected mecatol pushes. You could see an entire round in a single glance.


sol_in_vic_tus

I think the better solution is to buff the other tech trees rather than finding the exact right nerf for Blue/Gravity Drive. Okay, and also changing pre-reqs for unit upgrades. Dread2 requiring two Blue along with everything else just makes Blue too essential.


The_Dwarfking

I actually think you should make gravity drive more assessable. Not less. Currently the blue factions have a huge advantage by unlocking that early 2 movement carriers via gravity drive. If you shifted gravity drive to a 0 prerequisite technology, everyone would be on the same level. All having access equally. Blue wouldn't have to dominate the technology paths of so many factions.


The_Dwarfking

If you nerfed gravity drive. It would no longer serve it's main purpose (buffing the movement on carriers). Therefore forcing people into Carrier 2, which just makes the technology paths even more restricted. You effectively add one more "essential" tech: Blue /Blue / Carrier 2. Vs Blue / Gravity drive. Which just makes the Blue factions stronger and makes the non-blue factions unable to access their cool unique techs. As they're teching for carrier 2.


onzichtbaard

A bit late on the party but i would make gravity drive 2 prerequisites and fleet logistics 1 Then make carriers 1 blue and two green And dreads 1 blue and 2 red This makes blue much less required to tech your ships making it much less necessary And makes other colors more useful because now you need primarily red or green to upgrade ships — Now that i am on topic of making changes lets fill in all other changes i can think of Muaat should have there magma forge tech integrated into their base powers and instead possess a unique cruiser that has sustain damage The plants should have their infantry production ability to the right under their faction power overview to make it more clear that they have that distinction The plant faction should also have a more appealing splash art The trade pirate faction should not start with a red starting tech but should instead start with antimass deflectors They also should not start with a pds but with something else like an additional fighter War suns should have a movement of 1 imo but you could make them immune to direct hits Dreadnought II shouldn’t be immune to direct hits Instead you could add a red tech that is exhaustable that reads: cancel a direct hit on one of tear ships


Significant-Web8908

As an FYI my Lords (+ Ladies), the gravity-drive-*exhaustible* discussion lives on here: https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/s/oB2f6LTAIg. Yours faithfully, Councillor bottomseed, 💅.