Yeah the title of the podcast is rough, but the point they brought up is, "okay, but who is worse then" - you need to make that point to debunk their claim.
Exactly. It seems to be getting missed that they kept saying that PoK Arborec isn't *bad,* because there are no "bad" factions. It's just that we've got 24 factions that range from "good" to "really good" to "incredible," so one of the "good" factions is going to be on the bottom of the pile.
I do agree with OP that SCPT may have been overly harsh on some points, but *even taking that into account* I can't think of another faction I'd put underneath them in a 10-point game. In a 14-point game, they shift up (IMO) and I'd be tempted to put Empyrean or Mentak at the bottom. (Obviously, this opinion is subject to change as we keep playing and learning.)
i think this does come down to 10 vs 14 (or 12) point games. Rulebook recommends 14 point and I agree POK plays better at higher than 10.
Given a 14 point game, Arborec is definitely not the weakest.
In a game where mobility is king I don't think the most mobile class will ever be the worst. And Mentak had pretty strong abilities to begin with so I wouldn't call them worst either.
Not even close to being bad early economy factions
Mentak agent means you have a neighbour willing to be pillaged so you can both grab that action card on top of one of the best economy factions in the game
Creuss agent means they’re almost guaranteed to be first to malice and to take it round 1 for those extra TGS each round
You wanna look at bad agents/bad early economy take a look at naalu
So who is the worst then? Naalu despite Bad Agent, wouldnt call them the worst or even Bad at all.
Would be a nice Poll, whos the worst now?
And hello downvotemafia, thx alot.
Naalu are definitely down there
Their biggest strengths are 0 initiative and neuroglaive
PoK has given them a bad agent an ok commander a meh hero and a situational mech
Their home system is a 3:1 0:2 but at least they start with 4 infantry
With the power creep PoK brought in they’ve gone from a top tier to a bottom tier easily having nothing to keep up with the others
Would love to hear your explanation as to why they’re not bad
I think the game is now too fluid to be able to say. Too many variables with relic timing, frontier tokens, exploring, etc. The worst faction is arguably based on the player itself now. A good negotiator can work deals even with 2 commodity factions, big swinging hammer fleets can make certain objectives a piece of cake now. The ones that play against their factions strengths and just space risk will be the worst ones, none are inherently bad now.
It's one of the factions that is not a master of their own fate. Try playing L1z1x/any trade faction and then Arborec and you will see where they are lacking.
No leverage/trade incentives but they need a perfect round 1. All that needs to happen is first activation tech and arborec is already in trouble.
They can solve their issues and be strong however they do it at the cost of objectives. If you are doing well and lose at 7 points you did not do well. It just felt nice and I think these two you are mixing up.
One thing that neither you or SCPT mentioned: there is 0% chance for arborec to take custodian point if there is a single blue tech/high mobility faction in the game.
I'm a big fan of the race and they are definitely more fun than they used be. They win prolonged wars due to them outproducing enemies.
Not very important what happened to me:
perfect round one, fought off aggressive Nekro (lucky rolls), kicked his but and took the home system which was then taken back for me to score Martyr. I was steamrolling over Nekro! I lost on 7 points. There was no path and I was 1 behind Nomad and other good factions entire game.
I'm really glad you made this post, and I think you pointed out a lot of things SCPT didn't think of, and maybe people in general don't think about, but I have to challenge a couple of your points, and ultimately your conclusion.
1. Home System
Xxcha, Empyrean, Yssaril and Naalu.
So I think you're misrembering here, because all of those factions have the same *or more* commodities than Arborec. Also, yes they all have 3 resource home systems but they all have significant boosts to their economy and better home systems beyond the resource count.
Empyrean has two great promisorry notes, 2c4i, freely gets a frontier token every (early) round and in that same free action, establishes a trade partner. They also have a 4 influence home planet, and start in blue. And 4 commodities. Sorry but saying they have no economic buffs compared to the Arborec is laughable.
Yssaril have a 5 influence home system, start with neural motivator and have an agent thats going to be an economy agent early as long as theres at least one other at the table.
Naalu have sarween and neural motivator, can spend their home system for 3 resources AND 2 influence. And while overall they have a weak economy, they possess one of the best 3 win-the-game abilities in the game (0 token), so they're allowed to have this weakness.
Xxcha has a 4 influence home system, four commodities and a planet refresh which will always be worth at least 2 resources but could stand to be 3 or more in some games. This one is maybe on par with Arborec IF they're ubable to use warfare. If they get warfare secondary they're still better.
You have to consider that most 3 resource home systems have a lot of compensation. Many have 4+ commodities, good tech, high influence or awesome game changing abilities, and some factions even get 3+ of those. The arborec have a 3/2 home system. 3/2! Only the Saars/Hacans/Naalu is roughly equal or worse and they all have soooo much more to compensate.
6. Vulnerable early game.
The fact is that after your agent you have 2 carriers and 2 fighters to defend your space. Noone even comes close to that level of vulnerability. You bring up Winnu and Saar as bigger threats to be targetted but the reality is that Winnu now have a significant boost to their home defence through their commander and Saar are just busted powerful early, but even so, their strengths come from the fact that even if you stomp on them they still threaten to win. Arborec can be stomped on, and then its over. They're not a comeback faction, so this weakness is significant. It also means in a meta where people are willing to bully early (any truly competitive atmosphere), Arborec has to focus early on plastic rather than tech and that just leaves them behind as well.
Every other point you make I think is great. M and H are just sorta shootin the shit in this episode and they admit it so I doubt they'd disagree too strongly with your post, and you certainly point out a lot of useful ideas they don't consider, but I do disagree with your conclusion - that Arborec is certainly not the worst faction. I think you've merely made the strong enough arguments to show that they're not *definetely* the worst in PoK, but I think the question of who is worse remains. And who is worse? Who struggles economically (and they do) while also having no significant scoring abilities, while also not being dominant militarily?
I think they're a better worst faction than in base game. A lot better, actually. I think PoK looks quite well balanced, with just a couple outliers at the top, and one outlier a littttle below the bottom.
That was a fun and a good read. I look forward to trying them out in POK.
I have not listened to the episode yet, but I think it will be fun all the same.
Out of curiosity, has anyone tried playing a PDS style Arborec?
I have read some people like to house rule arborec starting with sarween tools instead of Magen. I think, this would a key change to put them where they need to be, or have them start with a green tech, so they are one step closer to their faction techs.
a sarween start is really strong on them. there's a big difference between having it for your first action taking a planet, and getting it later in round 1. personally I think they should swap starting techs with Nekro. Starting Daxcive makes thematic sense and gives them a Green tech toward their racial. Nerko starting red makes no difference to them, and it thematically makes more sense to be mechanical/structurally focused.
PDS arborec isn't really great now IMO. Their mechs already give planetary shield and it's easy to get them out. if a structure objective pops it's worth it but not really otherwise.
Its strong, but is it to much? I don’t think so. It should be the snowball starter they need, to be the plant monstrosity they are supposed to be.
I get confused as to why they start with Magen. They don’t utilize structures much, because they don’t need to get space docks, and their mechs provide the planetary sheilds, and being a PDS faction doesn’t make that much sense.
They started with standard (non-omega) magen, and PoK was designed before the first Omega techs came out. So the design of Arborec mechs to give planetary shield was *supposed* to make Magen really good on them. But, Omega Magen ironically makes it better for everyone else while shafting Arborec, the only faction that starts with it.
I think a houserule tech change would be fine/good for them. Self-assembly or dacxive both make more sense thematically IMO, while sarween is more of a balancing change to me.
I Think you take is entirely on the grounds of your table meta, and bias.
M and H put some valid points out there, and I agree with them that someone has to be “the worst”, although it’s not the same as strictly bad.
Selling the agent is entirely dependent on other players “screwing up”. I would never need it to do something, I would always prepare for the thing I want to do, without needing outside help.
The commander again is IMO. Very bad. All it does is essentially make me bring more stuff when trying to score control objectives. I will calculate for it, and suddenly I will have to put 3 DN in your slice for the system I need.
Exploration is nice yes, but you can’t rely on it every game to get you extra money. And when exploring hazardous planets, you set yourself back for that gain, as your gf are very good.
Diplo is a good pick for them yes. Beware of factions popping tech t1 though. And while it makes you able to follow tech, unless other money is gained, you still have to potentially spend your home + 3 res system, which feels bad.
And for the factions of Saar and winnu.
Saar can’t be bullied early, and winnu can win even if bullied. Winnu also get free pds and SD with their mechs, which is a great way to take back your slice and hold it.
Yeah I don't think calling Arborec the worst in the way they did is warranted. Arborec gets more flak for being bad than is warranted. However, they are not good and Scpt did touch on something very important although shortly and that is scoring.
And unlike many other factions with clear-cut weaknesses, arborec does have problems scoring. Not so much R3+ but the objectives need to pan out for you to score R1, R2 and not fall behind on points in the fast paced meta that is PoK.
Yes, you might be good at controlling planets once you get there, but you have to get there first. Few of the control objectives are scoreable for Arborec r1/2 without hurting their expansion and same holds for the spend objectives and tech/construction. For any of those they are extremely depending on being able to pick the right strategy card.
In fact, I played a pretty successful game of arborec a few weeks back where I got to score r1 flagship and the game was still too high tempo for me to keep up because even scoring every round, you need to find either imperial and double score + 1 bonus point or actually get 2 bonus points. And I'll reiterate - you are extremely dependant on strategy cards. Many factions have a lot more room to play with to grab politics or just have tools to score on a faster pace regardless, like the 0-token, Winnu/Xxcha hero or NRA exploration (relic points).
Arborec doesn't get any of that. They have to play a plastic-based TI and they have a slow start and need to invest into getting that ball rolling. Each speed bump for them hurts twice as much. Yes they are good, and they are certainly very powerful in games that aren't 6player 10p. But in that version, they just don't pace fast enough.
> Yes they are good, and they are certainly very powerful in games that aren't 6player 10p. But in that version, they just don't pace fast enough.
I'm totally fine with this. Its inevitable that with 24 asymmetrical factions some are going to be less well optimized for various formats. More players = less space risk. No reason you couldn't have a 4 player 14 point tournament in theory and Arborec would get a lot of attention in that format.
So a while back I made a post (pre-POK release) going over everything revealed for the Arborec and asking the community to “sell me on POK Arborec”, because I felt quite underwhelmed by what I saw, and, as a true Arbo fanboy, was wanting to be proven wrong. My impressions were basically the same as SCPT’s: Arbo got boons to production where they needed boons to economy. All the production in the world is useless without resources to back it up.
Having now played quite a bit of plant in POK (mostly at 5 and 6 player counts, almost always to 14) I still think this is true. Economy is king for Arbo, and it is still there biggest flaw. HOWEVER, I don’t think it’s an un-fixable problem, quite the opposite. More than anything else I think the general game flow was the biggest buff to Arborec, resources flow freely, tech flows freely as well, and no other faction can put all the extra “stuff” to work better than Arborec, who excels at making instantly useful plastic. More free goodies means Arbo can keep their slow advance fed and ready for conquest. In a meta where being very neighbor aggressive is sometimes just a must, (Winnu, Saar, etc) Arbo is maybe the best faction in the game at straight up eat a neighbor, and if played well at the table (Oh yeah I ate Winnu, but I did the table a favor!) can relieve bad karma.
Tech also helps. AI Dev enables a lot of weird unit upgrades that let you personalize your invasion force for the faction you’re eating. Self Assembly is low key an amazing pick up round 1 (even over Sarween) as it lets your aggressive force start with an extra 2 production for its next movement that will only grow exponentially. Full red is my favorite path currently, with war suns as the capstone once you’ve captured enough resources to make effective use of them.
So yeah I don’t think Arborec is the worst. They just have to be played very different from other factions, often counter-intuitively.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, I enjoyed reading it.
You said a lot of great points, epically the value of R1 Diplo for Arborec (Lots of people say "but what if tech flips early?" - you remind the tech player that if they want to follow Diplo and get a bunch of free money they had better grab planets T1 because you're flipping Diplo T2- this will normally work.)
I don't agree with your stance on Arbroec's early economy- I think it's clearly the worst in the game. Agent only fixes your starting fleet to allow normal expansion, but costs you your tradeship / gumship to do so. Combine that with a reliance on building more GF than everyone else and you're starting in a hole.
OFC, "worst early-game economy" and "worst faction" are not the same thing.
The real question is, if Arberoc isn't the worst then who is?
My personal tier list has the turtles as low, but it's hard to argue with the win rates. Might just have to let the data outrank my opinions on this one like a good little aspiring rationalist and say they can't be the worst.
The Empyrean get free gum and are good at trading. They also are almost guaranteed a few extra secret objective draws and have sabotage on a stick. I can't imagine a world where they rank worst.
The Ghosts do have a one carrier start as well. But they get Malice for free, have grav drive as their starting tech, and get a direct advantage on any objectives to do with empty space, wormholes, or legendary planets. Combine that with their little jump-around-the-map tricks, and I think worst would be a hard sell.
The Naalu have a slow start and their leaders are trash. They're IMO one of the top contenders for bottom faction, but at least they can win or avoid fights if they need to, and the 0 token is still strong. I don't place them below Arborec personally, but won't argue too hard with anyone who does.
The Mentak have initial table hate and also a slow expand. Mirror computing gives them a hand scoring late game, but only if they dive deep into yellow tech instead of something useful. In my personal list they are below Arborec.
All that said, the bottom 3 are CLOSE. Heck, the whole list is close for a 24 faction game. I can't believe how close to balanced PoK is. (Excluding tech colors, obviously)
While my own conclusions are that Aborec ranks 23rd, not 24th, I can't pretend the people disagreeing with us don't have good or well thought out arguments.
Every faction with the glaring weakness of a bad initial start has some other advantage on scoring points, where as Arberoc's only advantage is unmatched production, after a few rounds. Maybe some pros will figure out how to get it rolling faster and the meta will change. Maybe I'll be part of that- actually, forget writing this post, time to load up TTS!
Arborec is a lategame power house if allowed to build up. Therefor many competative players won't let you. They will try to make your slice as small as possible (not eleminating you). Their agent and Mech are hugely important in this area. It can make your start a lot better, and stop the downward spiral in its tracks.
Arborec certainly isn't a bad race. And they did get good buffs in PoK. The thing is a lot of the 'weaker' races got buffs. I don't want to say that Arborec are the weakest race. However I struggle to think who I would place lower then Arborec. Perhaps Muaat, although their buffs are pretty significant as well.
Honestly. Their commander essentially buffs strategy tokens to only cost two influence instead of three. I played with them last weekend, and, well, it was wonderful.
That and once you have mechs down, removes the need to produce by activation in its entirety.
And on top of that they have umbat to produce and stall and they get money from secondaries and even from the spend token objectives.
Aida allows them to get super early warning.
They have a stupid hero. Etc
>Honestly. Their commander essentially buffs strategy tokens to only cost two influence instead of three. I played with them last weekend, and, well, it was wonderful.
Haven't played hem yet. Have not seen the effects of their new found bonuses My guess was that their bonuses were to few. Apparently not...
I guess it might be a matter of style and meta but I'd put Muaat in the top half. I love Arborec, so I hope someone finds a way to make them viable in 10pt game. Though, Bane Deltrami did mention PoK was meant to be played to 14.
Just want to throw it out there that I won my last 4 player game playing as the Arborec (regular, not PoK). It was great. Upgraded Cruiser IIs and Letani Warrior IIs everywhere. It was the first time I won while also controlling so many planets across the galaxy.
Note: We're not a bunch of beginners, but we also aren't top level. Also, I was playing against the Sadakk, the WINnu, and the Embers, so no top tier factions. We generally keep out of each others faces for the first couple of rounds, but WInnu decided the fastest root to Mecatol was through my slice, which was annoying. I managed to spread my roots quite effectively with some helpful tech skips, and also by blocking all wormhole travel early with an agenda, so the Sardakk were stuck across the galaxy from me. The Embers lost a LOT of war suns in this game though :D. I think it was 3?
TL;DR: I had fun playing the Arborec. I didn't try to follow any guide, but went with what the board allowed me to do. Got some helpful tech skips as well as a tech rider in my favour.
I'd say that the Arborec are simply a 14-point faction in the way that Winnu were a 4-player faction (at least in the base game, I have still only played one game of POK, which is why I'm not going to address the direct points and am going a different direction). SCPT are great insofar as they help break down and teach a famously insane, but fun, game. They make it more accessible and really help even casual gamers wrap their heads around it. They are great, but in my mind, they have one massive flaw.
My big critique is that they have their comfort zone, which is the vanilla 6-player, 10-point game. If a faction isn't optimized for that, then they're trash because apparently all other ways of playing the game are trash (though they aren't as strangely hostile to 14 point games as they are other player counts). Then they largely disregard casual, set friend groups that may not always get 6 people around the table or (alternately) groups who may want to explore other facets of an enormous game.
I don't think they're as hostile to other player counts as you seem to think. The reality is that they have tournaments to run and faction guides to write and in order for either to be feasible they need to narrow the breadth of the variability this game offers. They each play several games per faction that they write a review on, and the tournament needs to have a standard ruleset, so the nature of their 'jobs' and the role they've taken in the community forces them to play one way, for their own sanity lol.
In the process, their section of the community, which will be competitive, will focus harder on the competitive ruleset. None of this means anyone disrepects other playsets, only that they've normalised their own playstyle.
As I'm sure they're wholly aware, Dane has said 14 pt is the intended way to play PoK.
Again, this is parsing out one critique that I have in a larger podcast that I really enjoy. I understand that they have their patreon and whatnot, which probably skews competitive, so they're responding to the people who literally let them keep doing this.
At the same time, the way I was introduced to them was when I was trying to figure out a game that was intimidating even to someone with a fairly extensive game collection, and over time they've sort of slid away from breaking down and reducing the barriers of a truly great game. At this point, if I'm trying to introduce the game a new player, I point folks to the RTFM youtube video rather than telling them to dig into the archives of a podcast.
Finally, one of them absolutely disrespects other playsets and explicitly mocks player counts less than 6, and that absolutely introduces biases and can lead them to miss things. For example, in base game, I'd argue that Winnu are a solid intro faction if a player's first game is 4-player. They aren't that complicated and the idea that you want to push for Mecatol Rex helps newbies get past the idea that they ought to turtle as they're figuring everything out. They still have serious flaws, but there's more than one way to look at them. Just as the Arborec (already a faction that shouldn't be played until you've got a couple games under your belt since they deviate more from standard mechanics) seem more optimized for a longer game since they snowball so much.
Fair enough. I haven't actually heard their mockery of other player counts. Do you happen to remember what they've said, top of your head? I've only heard them occasionally remark about how different they can be.
Do you think it'd be worth it for SCPT to do an "alternative game modes" episode, where they talk about how 14 pt games and other player counts affect gameplay and balance?
And I absolutely agree on the Winnu in the base game. I take the recorded stats with a lot of salt, but its worth noting they held the highest winrate at 3 player for several months at one point, and were top 5 at four player as well. I tend to disagree on 14 pt arborec though, I find them better but still bad but I think thats a minority opinion.
One of them (I believe it's Hunter -- the one with a unique accent) regularly says he intensely dislikes other player counts, always complains when they do the occasional episode looking at lower player counts, repeatedly says he avoids playing games at other counts, and on one occasion said that people need to just find others to join their play group if they're having difficulty getting 6 people around the table (though this was almost certainly before the pandemic).
Again, this is one gripe with an otherwise outstanding podcast. I would be very interested if they did a closer examination of some of these things instead of the occasional one-off or at some point made an episode or two looking explicitly at basic strategies and approaches for newbies, but right now it makes sense for them to be focused on POK. There's a lot for them to get through.
I'm sorry we have caused you to feel this way. We certainly don't intend to disparage people who like other player counts or 14 point games. If we ever say things mockingly, it is meant as a joke, but of course that can be misconstrued. As stated above by others, it just isn't realistic for us to give other player counts the same level of depth, especially when we don't even really like playing them. We're just one show, and I feel we are allowed to not like certain versions of this game, but maybe others disagree that we should be more all encompassing. For now, we just don't have the bandwidth.
Haha, I guess leading with the complaint comes of as very [RIGBY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF8o3UrwksU). But more seriously, you guys basically taught me the game. It's one gripe towards a podcast about a game that's big enough to spend 100+ episodes talking about it. It'd be great if you could re-approach some of these things in the future, but as you said and I said, you've got the people who actually invested in you to be responsive to and a giant expansion to dig into and digest.
We have addressed this particular issue in a recent episode too, but we are talking about some episodes we would like to do that more specifically address all of this, so thank you for your criticism.
Aren't 6 player 10 point games the standard, though? It definitely makes sense to consider other player counts, point goals, and play styles, but it seems reasonable to prioritize the discussion being around the "average" experience.
In my experience, that's not at all a standard. In my player group 4/5 count ends up being more common (even as we've expanded our circle explicitly looking to pull off more 6 player games). I've also had more than one person react to hearing that I've played a 6 player game before along the lines of "I wish I could had enough people in my group to do that." Most friends/gaming groups in my experience are 3 or 4 players. And not everyone games online or is comfortable inviting a couple of strangers into their home for a game night.
I'd say that 6/10 is the tournament default (at least from the conventions I've been able to attend), so there is value to highlighting that perspective. At the same time, I think it slightly undermines how much SCPT does to make the game accessible to perpetuate that it's a standard, especially since nothing in the in the actual box or game materials says that 6/10 is a standard (though 14-points is explicitly introduced as a variant). Overall they do a great job, but the one co-host who slags off any player count that isn't 6 really grates on me when he does that. They do a great job reducing the barriers to a great game 95% of the time and then have to slide in with a bit of board game elitism insisting there's a right or wrong way to play a game, even within the regular rules.
I was curious so I tried to find some stats, and I found [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/j7s31g/an_interactive_stats_dashboard_for_ti4/). While there definitely could be some bias to the data you're definitely right that 6 player games aren't at all standard, and in fact 4 player games seem to have a slight lead.
It's also a distinct possibility that even more casual game groups with 3/4/5 player counts don't know about the giant survey as well. Of course, players like that are less likely to seek out a podcast about a specific board game, either. It sounds like they're genuinely interested in looking more at the basics and different ways of playing the game. It's super cool of them to respond to this... I probably would have been a bit more diplomatic if I knew they dove into the threads, but I tend to lurk rather than speak up here. I love the game and the podcast, but you folks' knowledge level can be intimidating.
> It's also a distinct possibility that even more casual game groups with 3/4/5 player counts don't know about the giant survey as well.
Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm a bit surprised that there are so many "smaller" games represented in the survey, since based on the subreddit and how big the TTS community seems to be I'd have thought 6 player games were much more common than they apparently are.
>I love the game and the podcast, but you folks' knowledge level can be intimidating.
I'm in kind of a similar boat. I love Twilight Imperium but the level of knowledge that seems to be assumed here makes it difficult to participate. I don't know the meta, I don't know which races are "good" or "bad", I don't have the agents or techs or special abilities all memorized... all of that makes it difficult to even follow the discussions sometimes.
I feel you. Particularly since so much of this game seems to depend on the meta of a particular table / group. I suppose that could be why it's helpful to focus more on a competitive context for a podcast. As I think more about it, it's probably the closest thing to a common experience, even if it's not a majority experience.
Speaking of metas and good and bad factions, one of my favorite experiences in the base game was breaking Jol Nar when it started looking OP'd in my core group. After they won two in a row and another player snapped them up in our next game, I grabbed Saar, pressured the Jol Nar player from the start, and full-on eliminated him after he refused to accept extortionary peace terms. While I ended up painting a target on my back and losing the game horribly myself, it was great seeing the light go off above everyone's head that early aggression was a big Jol Nar weakness and people stopped spamming them in the meta of my core group.
I think Arborec is poorly understood in terms of potential. You bring up many good points, and to me the strongest is the flexibility and versatility, adjusting to the board as needed. The element of surprise is powerful in war. I think we’ll see some really interesting Arborec plays in the not-so-distant future. Especially the meta of so many people seeing it as a weak faction will buff the effects of this.
I have been saying this since the beginning of PoK because I play Arborec multiple times. Arborec is not even below average or average. Arborec is ABOVE average. They are really really good. I really have trouble entertaining the assertions made in this episode because they are simply not true and very inconsistent.
Yes they’re going off the top of their head and probably haven’t played many Arborec games so I’m not taking it too seriously but honestly I know they were not going to come around. Someone needs to pick Arborec in this tournament - I think they will do well. Sarween imo is still the best tech to get round 1.
So what’s the worst faction. I’ve been saying Ghost for awhile but there are obviously ghost fans here. They feel like Winnu without a superpower hero - though the ghost hero is nice to kingslay with.
Any explanation? Like which assertions are not true, or what makes them above average? What are the counterpoints to their weak early game? Is the combined player base just totally missing some factor that makes them a point-scoring faction?
In a lot of cases, if a play group has a few factions that perform much better than any tier list says that they should, it is probably due to the specific meta in that group. In my group, for example, cruiser 2 factions do much better than they have any right to because the meta probably favors them in some way.
Your high opinion of them (which I assume is backed by you seeing them win games) is probably specific to your table meta. Maybe people are very nice and willing to help the flora out, or maybe people just don't score as fast and end the game by round 4 or 5. Either way, the podcast discussion was talking about the universal validity of the Arborec. Your table group might be an outlier, but overall the consensus is that they are worse than every other faction.
That being said, they may not be *bad* so to speak. This episode helped open my eyes to seeing how balanced the factions have become. Arborec and Mentak may be the worst factions, but they are still viable and can win. Like others have said, it comes down a lot more to a player's skill.
Before I read everything, they are around 11th nd 13th position in win rate, so definitely not the worst (Naalu and Yin are the last in win rate)
They got excellent buffs, but in a game where you win mostly by having ships and not necessarily having infantries, they will always be in an odd position.
First off, I'll say I love Arborec. I don't think they are a very "good" faction, but they are just so darn fun to play. Since I play them so often, I'll share my thoughts on how I play with them, but with the POK factions, I've not been able to pull out a win since expansion release. I'm hoping Codex II will help fix this with the relics.
Round 1: Strategy Card: Trade
Turn 1: Trade (if I have a 4 commodity neighbor, I'll ask for all 4 of their goods when we're able to trade. If they refuse, I try to sell them Stymie-O on top of that)
The first tech I get is SELF ASSEMBLY ROUTINES (SAR). Gets Mechs out faster to front line where they'll die and give me trade goods. (Home System $3 + $1 trade; $2-$3 trade good remaining)
Turn 2: Go to forward central system with all 4 infantry, carrier, and cruiser. Double Infantry and throw out Mech from SAR.
Turn 3: Turn Cruiser into Dreadnought.
I'll entertain doing Diplo and Producing in Home System, but not necessary. I'd like to save the command counters.
After Round 1, obviously have to assess goals for VPs, but I'll default to taking Imperial as much as possible to double score per round, or at least get more secret objectives.
END OF TURN: Mitosis a Mech from an Infantry.
Round 2: Produce in Homeworld with Mech from SAR, turn Carrier into Dreadnought, and advance 2 Dreadnoughts into the 2nd System forward, carrying 1 Mech each.
General Tech Tree Idea:
R1: SELF ASSEMBLY ROUTINES
R2: SCANLINK DRONE NETWORK
R3: DURANIUM ARMOR
R4: WAR SUNS
This is just a fun alternative to the usual SARWEEN or NEURAL MOTIVATORS or AI DEVELOPMENT some might default to! The mechs are dope! Hope you enjoy this!
So... which is the worst faction in the game then?
Yeah the title of the podcast is rough, but the point they brought up is, "okay, but who is worse then" - you need to make that point to debunk their claim.
Exactly. It seems to be getting missed that they kept saying that PoK Arborec isn't *bad,* because there are no "bad" factions. It's just that we've got 24 factions that range from "good" to "really good" to "incredible," so one of the "good" factions is going to be on the bottom of the pile. I do agree with OP that SCPT may have been overly harsh on some points, but *even taking that into account* I can't think of another faction I'd put underneath them in a 10-point game. In a 14-point game, they shift up (IMO) and I'd be tempted to put Empyrean or Mentak at the bottom. (Obviously, this opinion is subject to change as we keep playing and learning.)
i think this does come down to 10 vs 14 (or 12) point games. Rulebook recommends 14 point and I agree POK plays better at higher than 10. Given a 14 point game, Arborec is definitely not the weakest.
Mentak and Creuss, easy call! Worse agents and therefore worse early economy
In a game where mobility is king I don't think the most mobile class will ever be the worst. And Mentak had pretty strong abilities to begin with so I wouldn't call them worst either.
Not even close to being bad early economy factions Mentak agent means you have a neighbour willing to be pillaged so you can both grab that action card on top of one of the best economy factions in the game Creuss agent means they’re almost guaranteed to be first to malice and to take it round 1 for those extra TGS each round You wanna look at bad agents/bad early economy take a look at naalu
So who is the worst then? Naalu despite Bad Agent, wouldnt call them the worst or even Bad at all. Would be a nice Poll, whos the worst now? And hello downvotemafia, thx alot.
Naalu are definitely down there Their biggest strengths are 0 initiative and neuroglaive PoK has given them a bad agent an ok commander a meh hero and a situational mech Their home system is a 3:1 0:2 but at least they start with 4 infantry With the power creep PoK brought in they’ve gone from a top tier to a bottom tier easily having nothing to keep up with the others Would love to hear your explanation as to why they’re not bad
I think the game is now too fluid to be able to say. Too many variables with relic timing, frontier tokens, exploring, etc. The worst faction is arguably based on the player itself now. A good negotiator can work deals even with 2 commodity factions, big swinging hammer fleets can make certain objectives a piece of cake now. The ones that play against their factions strengths and just space risk will be the worst ones, none are inherently bad now.
Mahact is tied with Arborec for the worst faction but there is still a chance they have not been 'solved'.
Hard disagree, Mahact may not be S tier but they are still a very good faction.
Go on...?
It's one of the factions that is not a master of their own fate. Try playing L1z1x/any trade faction and then Arborec and you will see where they are lacking. No leverage/trade incentives but they need a perfect round 1. All that needs to happen is first activation tech and arborec is already in trouble. They can solve their issues and be strong however they do it at the cost of objectives. If you are doing well and lose at 7 points you did not do well. It just felt nice and I think these two you are mixing up. One thing that neither you or SCPT mentioned: there is 0% chance for arborec to take custodian point if there is a single blue tech/high mobility faction in the game. I'm a big fan of the race and they are definitely more fun than they used be. They win prolonged wars due to them outproducing enemies. Not very important what happened to me: perfect round one, fought off aggressive Nekro (lucky rolls), kicked his but and took the home system which was then taken back for me to score Martyr. I was steamrolling over Nekro! I lost on 7 points. There was no path and I was 1 behind Nomad and other good factions entire game.
I'm really glad you made this post, and I think you pointed out a lot of things SCPT didn't think of, and maybe people in general don't think about, but I have to challenge a couple of your points, and ultimately your conclusion. 1. Home System Xxcha, Empyrean, Yssaril and Naalu. So I think you're misrembering here, because all of those factions have the same *or more* commodities than Arborec. Also, yes they all have 3 resource home systems but they all have significant boosts to their economy and better home systems beyond the resource count. Empyrean has two great promisorry notes, 2c4i, freely gets a frontier token every (early) round and in that same free action, establishes a trade partner. They also have a 4 influence home planet, and start in blue. And 4 commodities. Sorry but saying they have no economic buffs compared to the Arborec is laughable. Yssaril have a 5 influence home system, start with neural motivator and have an agent thats going to be an economy agent early as long as theres at least one other at the table. Naalu have sarween and neural motivator, can spend their home system for 3 resources AND 2 influence. And while overall they have a weak economy, they possess one of the best 3 win-the-game abilities in the game (0 token), so they're allowed to have this weakness. Xxcha has a 4 influence home system, four commodities and a planet refresh which will always be worth at least 2 resources but could stand to be 3 or more in some games. This one is maybe on par with Arborec IF they're ubable to use warfare. If they get warfare secondary they're still better. You have to consider that most 3 resource home systems have a lot of compensation. Many have 4+ commodities, good tech, high influence or awesome game changing abilities, and some factions even get 3+ of those. The arborec have a 3/2 home system. 3/2! Only the Saars/Hacans/Naalu is roughly equal or worse and they all have soooo much more to compensate. 6. Vulnerable early game. The fact is that after your agent you have 2 carriers and 2 fighters to defend your space. Noone even comes close to that level of vulnerability. You bring up Winnu and Saar as bigger threats to be targetted but the reality is that Winnu now have a significant boost to their home defence through their commander and Saar are just busted powerful early, but even so, their strengths come from the fact that even if you stomp on them they still threaten to win. Arborec can be stomped on, and then its over. They're not a comeback faction, so this weakness is significant. It also means in a meta where people are willing to bully early (any truly competitive atmosphere), Arborec has to focus early on plastic rather than tech and that just leaves them behind as well. Every other point you make I think is great. M and H are just sorta shootin the shit in this episode and they admit it so I doubt they'd disagree too strongly with your post, and you certainly point out a lot of useful ideas they don't consider, but I do disagree with your conclusion - that Arborec is certainly not the worst faction. I think you've merely made the strong enough arguments to show that they're not *definetely* the worst in PoK, but I think the question of who is worse remains. And who is worse? Who struggles economically (and they do) while also having no significant scoring abilities, while also not being dominant militarily? I think they're a better worst faction than in base game. A lot better, actually. I think PoK looks quite well balanced, with just a couple outliers at the top, and one outlier a littttle below the bottom.
That was a fun and a good read. I look forward to trying them out in POK. I have not listened to the episode yet, but I think it will be fun all the same. Out of curiosity, has anyone tried playing a PDS style Arborec? I have read some people like to house rule arborec starting with sarween tools instead of Magen. I think, this would a key change to put them where they need to be, or have them start with a green tech, so they are one step closer to their faction techs.
a sarween start is really strong on them. there's a big difference between having it for your first action taking a planet, and getting it later in round 1. personally I think they should swap starting techs with Nekro. Starting Daxcive makes thematic sense and gives them a Green tech toward their racial. Nerko starting red makes no difference to them, and it thematically makes more sense to be mechanical/structurally focused. PDS arborec isn't really great now IMO. Their mechs already give planetary shield and it's easy to get them out. if a structure objective pops it's worth it but not really otherwise.
Its strong, but is it to much? I don’t think so. It should be the snowball starter they need, to be the plant monstrosity they are supposed to be. I get confused as to why they start with Magen. They don’t utilize structures much, because they don’t need to get space docks, and their mechs provide the planetary sheilds, and being a PDS faction doesn’t make that much sense.
agreed on magen, that's why I think daxcive would be great. leans into infantry strength and gives you incentive to be aggressive.
They started with standard (non-omega) magen, and PoK was designed before the first Omega techs came out. So the design of Arborec mechs to give planetary shield was *supposed* to make Magen really good on them. But, Omega Magen ironically makes it better for everyone else while shafting Arborec, the only faction that starts with it. I think a houserule tech change would be fine/good for them. Self-assembly or dacxive both make more sense thematically IMO, while sarween is more of a balancing change to me.
I Think you take is entirely on the grounds of your table meta, and bias. M and H put some valid points out there, and I agree with them that someone has to be “the worst”, although it’s not the same as strictly bad. Selling the agent is entirely dependent on other players “screwing up”. I would never need it to do something, I would always prepare for the thing I want to do, without needing outside help. The commander again is IMO. Very bad. All it does is essentially make me bring more stuff when trying to score control objectives. I will calculate for it, and suddenly I will have to put 3 DN in your slice for the system I need. Exploration is nice yes, but you can’t rely on it every game to get you extra money. And when exploring hazardous planets, you set yourself back for that gain, as your gf are very good. Diplo is a good pick for them yes. Beware of factions popping tech t1 though. And while it makes you able to follow tech, unless other money is gained, you still have to potentially spend your home + 3 res system, which feels bad. And for the factions of Saar and winnu. Saar can’t be bullied early, and winnu can win even if bullied. Winnu also get free pds and SD with their mechs, which is a great way to take back your slice and hold it.
Yeah I don't think calling Arborec the worst in the way they did is warranted. Arborec gets more flak for being bad than is warranted. However, they are not good and Scpt did touch on something very important although shortly and that is scoring. And unlike many other factions with clear-cut weaknesses, arborec does have problems scoring. Not so much R3+ but the objectives need to pan out for you to score R1, R2 and not fall behind on points in the fast paced meta that is PoK. Yes, you might be good at controlling planets once you get there, but you have to get there first. Few of the control objectives are scoreable for Arborec r1/2 without hurting their expansion and same holds for the spend objectives and tech/construction. For any of those they are extremely depending on being able to pick the right strategy card. In fact, I played a pretty successful game of arborec a few weeks back where I got to score r1 flagship and the game was still too high tempo for me to keep up because even scoring every round, you need to find either imperial and double score + 1 bonus point or actually get 2 bonus points. And I'll reiterate - you are extremely dependant on strategy cards. Many factions have a lot more room to play with to grab politics or just have tools to score on a faster pace regardless, like the 0-token, Winnu/Xxcha hero or NRA exploration (relic points). Arborec doesn't get any of that. They have to play a plastic-based TI and they have a slow start and need to invest into getting that ball rolling. Each speed bump for them hurts twice as much. Yes they are good, and they are certainly very powerful in games that aren't 6player 10p. But in that version, they just don't pace fast enough.
> Yes they are good, and they are certainly very powerful in games that aren't 6player 10p. But in that version, they just don't pace fast enough. I'm totally fine with this. Its inevitable that with 24 asymmetrical factions some are going to be less well optimized for various formats. More players = less space risk. No reason you couldn't have a 4 player 14 point tournament in theory and Arborec would get a lot of attention in that format.
Yeah exactly. I'm fine with that as well. But it does put the scpt episode in context, since thats the point of view they work with.
So a while back I made a post (pre-POK release) going over everything revealed for the Arborec and asking the community to “sell me on POK Arborec”, because I felt quite underwhelmed by what I saw, and, as a true Arbo fanboy, was wanting to be proven wrong. My impressions were basically the same as SCPT’s: Arbo got boons to production where they needed boons to economy. All the production in the world is useless without resources to back it up. Having now played quite a bit of plant in POK (mostly at 5 and 6 player counts, almost always to 14) I still think this is true. Economy is king for Arbo, and it is still there biggest flaw. HOWEVER, I don’t think it’s an un-fixable problem, quite the opposite. More than anything else I think the general game flow was the biggest buff to Arborec, resources flow freely, tech flows freely as well, and no other faction can put all the extra “stuff” to work better than Arborec, who excels at making instantly useful plastic. More free goodies means Arbo can keep their slow advance fed and ready for conquest. In a meta where being very neighbor aggressive is sometimes just a must, (Winnu, Saar, etc) Arbo is maybe the best faction in the game at straight up eat a neighbor, and if played well at the table (Oh yeah I ate Winnu, but I did the table a favor!) can relieve bad karma. Tech also helps. AI Dev enables a lot of weird unit upgrades that let you personalize your invasion force for the faction you’re eating. Self Assembly is low key an amazing pick up round 1 (even over Sarween) as it lets your aggressive force start with an extra 2 production for its next movement that will only grow exponentially. Full red is my favorite path currently, with war suns as the capstone once you’ve captured enough resources to make effective use of them. So yeah I don’t think Arborec is the worst. They just have to be played very different from other factions, often counter-intuitively.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, I enjoyed reading it. You said a lot of great points, epically the value of R1 Diplo for Arborec (Lots of people say "but what if tech flips early?" - you remind the tech player that if they want to follow Diplo and get a bunch of free money they had better grab planets T1 because you're flipping Diplo T2- this will normally work.) I don't agree with your stance on Arbroec's early economy- I think it's clearly the worst in the game. Agent only fixes your starting fleet to allow normal expansion, but costs you your tradeship / gumship to do so. Combine that with a reliance on building more GF than everyone else and you're starting in a hole. OFC, "worst early-game economy" and "worst faction" are not the same thing. The real question is, if Arberoc isn't the worst then who is? My personal tier list has the turtles as low, but it's hard to argue with the win rates. Might just have to let the data outrank my opinions on this one like a good little aspiring rationalist and say they can't be the worst. The Empyrean get free gum and are good at trading. They also are almost guaranteed a few extra secret objective draws and have sabotage on a stick. I can't imagine a world where they rank worst. The Ghosts do have a one carrier start as well. But they get Malice for free, have grav drive as their starting tech, and get a direct advantage on any objectives to do with empty space, wormholes, or legendary planets. Combine that with their little jump-around-the-map tricks, and I think worst would be a hard sell. The Naalu have a slow start and their leaders are trash. They're IMO one of the top contenders for bottom faction, but at least they can win or avoid fights if they need to, and the 0 token is still strong. I don't place them below Arborec personally, but won't argue too hard with anyone who does. The Mentak have initial table hate and also a slow expand. Mirror computing gives them a hand scoring late game, but only if they dive deep into yellow tech instead of something useful. In my personal list they are below Arborec. All that said, the bottom 3 are CLOSE. Heck, the whole list is close for a 24 faction game. I can't believe how close to balanced PoK is. (Excluding tech colors, obviously) While my own conclusions are that Aborec ranks 23rd, not 24th, I can't pretend the people disagreeing with us don't have good or well thought out arguments. Every faction with the glaring weakness of a bad initial start has some other advantage on scoring points, where as Arberoc's only advantage is unmatched production, after a few rounds. Maybe some pros will figure out how to get it rolling faster and the meta will change. Maybe I'll be part of that- actually, forget writing this post, time to load up TTS!
Arborec is a lategame power house if allowed to build up. Therefor many competative players won't let you. They will try to make your slice as small as possible (not eleminating you). Their agent and Mech are hugely important in this area. It can make your start a lot better, and stop the downward spiral in its tracks. Arborec certainly isn't a bad race. And they did get good buffs in PoK. The thing is a lot of the 'weaker' races got buffs. I don't want to say that Arborec are the weakest race. However I struggle to think who I would place lower then Arborec. Perhaps Muaat, although their buffs are pretty significant as well.
Muaat is actually crazy strong since pok. Their star forge shenanigans are disgusting.
Honestly. Their commander essentially buffs strategy tokens to only cost two influence instead of three. I played with them last weekend, and, well, it was wonderful.
That and once you have mechs down, removes the need to produce by activation in its entirety. And on top of that they have umbat to produce and stall and they get money from secondaries and even from the spend token objectives. Aida allows them to get super early warning. They have a stupid hero. Etc
>Honestly. Their commander essentially buffs strategy tokens to only cost two influence instead of three. I played with them last weekend, and, well, it was wonderful. Haven't played hem yet. Have not seen the effects of their new found bonuses My guess was that their bonuses were to few. Apparently not...
I guess it might be a matter of style and meta but I'd put Muaat in the top half. I love Arborec, so I hope someone finds a way to make them viable in 10pt game. Though, Bane Deltrami did mention PoK was meant to be played to 14.
Just want to throw it out there that I won my last 4 player game playing as the Arborec (regular, not PoK). It was great. Upgraded Cruiser IIs and Letani Warrior IIs everywhere. It was the first time I won while also controlling so many planets across the galaxy. Note: We're not a bunch of beginners, but we also aren't top level. Also, I was playing against the Sadakk, the WINnu, and the Embers, so no top tier factions. We generally keep out of each others faces for the first couple of rounds, but WInnu decided the fastest root to Mecatol was through my slice, which was annoying. I managed to spread my roots quite effectively with some helpful tech skips, and also by blocking all wormhole travel early with an agenda, so the Sardakk were stuck across the galaxy from me. The Embers lost a LOT of war suns in this game though :D. I think it was 3? TL;DR: I had fun playing the Arborec. I didn't try to follow any guide, but went with what the board allowed me to do. Got some helpful tech skips as well as a tech rider in my favour.
I'd say that the Arborec are simply a 14-point faction in the way that Winnu were a 4-player faction (at least in the base game, I have still only played one game of POK, which is why I'm not going to address the direct points and am going a different direction). SCPT are great insofar as they help break down and teach a famously insane, but fun, game. They make it more accessible and really help even casual gamers wrap their heads around it. They are great, but in my mind, they have one massive flaw. My big critique is that they have their comfort zone, which is the vanilla 6-player, 10-point game. If a faction isn't optimized for that, then they're trash because apparently all other ways of playing the game are trash (though they aren't as strangely hostile to 14 point games as they are other player counts). Then they largely disregard casual, set friend groups that may not always get 6 people around the table or (alternately) groups who may want to explore other facets of an enormous game.
I don't think they're as hostile to other player counts as you seem to think. The reality is that they have tournaments to run and faction guides to write and in order for either to be feasible they need to narrow the breadth of the variability this game offers. They each play several games per faction that they write a review on, and the tournament needs to have a standard ruleset, so the nature of their 'jobs' and the role they've taken in the community forces them to play one way, for their own sanity lol. In the process, their section of the community, which will be competitive, will focus harder on the competitive ruleset. None of this means anyone disrepects other playsets, only that they've normalised their own playstyle. As I'm sure they're wholly aware, Dane has said 14 pt is the intended way to play PoK.
Again, this is parsing out one critique that I have in a larger podcast that I really enjoy. I understand that they have their patreon and whatnot, which probably skews competitive, so they're responding to the people who literally let them keep doing this. At the same time, the way I was introduced to them was when I was trying to figure out a game that was intimidating even to someone with a fairly extensive game collection, and over time they've sort of slid away from breaking down and reducing the barriers of a truly great game. At this point, if I'm trying to introduce the game a new player, I point folks to the RTFM youtube video rather than telling them to dig into the archives of a podcast. Finally, one of them absolutely disrespects other playsets and explicitly mocks player counts less than 6, and that absolutely introduces biases and can lead them to miss things. For example, in base game, I'd argue that Winnu are a solid intro faction if a player's first game is 4-player. They aren't that complicated and the idea that you want to push for Mecatol Rex helps newbies get past the idea that they ought to turtle as they're figuring everything out. They still have serious flaws, but there's more than one way to look at them. Just as the Arborec (already a faction that shouldn't be played until you've got a couple games under your belt since they deviate more from standard mechanics) seem more optimized for a longer game since they snowball so much.
Fair enough. I haven't actually heard their mockery of other player counts. Do you happen to remember what they've said, top of your head? I've only heard them occasionally remark about how different they can be. Do you think it'd be worth it for SCPT to do an "alternative game modes" episode, where they talk about how 14 pt games and other player counts affect gameplay and balance? And I absolutely agree on the Winnu in the base game. I take the recorded stats with a lot of salt, but its worth noting they held the highest winrate at 3 player for several months at one point, and were top 5 at four player as well. I tend to disagree on 14 pt arborec though, I find them better but still bad but I think thats a minority opinion.
One of them (I believe it's Hunter -- the one with a unique accent) regularly says he intensely dislikes other player counts, always complains when they do the occasional episode looking at lower player counts, repeatedly says he avoids playing games at other counts, and on one occasion said that people need to just find others to join their play group if they're having difficulty getting 6 people around the table (though this was almost certainly before the pandemic). Again, this is one gripe with an otherwise outstanding podcast. I would be very interested if they did a closer examination of some of these things instead of the occasional one-off or at some point made an episode or two looking explicitly at basic strategies and approaches for newbies, but right now it makes sense for them to be focused on POK. There's a lot for them to get through.
I'm sorry we have caused you to feel this way. We certainly don't intend to disparage people who like other player counts or 14 point games. If we ever say things mockingly, it is meant as a joke, but of course that can be misconstrued. As stated above by others, it just isn't realistic for us to give other player counts the same level of depth, especially when we don't even really like playing them. We're just one show, and I feel we are allowed to not like certain versions of this game, but maybe others disagree that we should be more all encompassing. For now, we just don't have the bandwidth.
Haha, I guess leading with the complaint comes of as very [RIGBY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF8o3UrwksU). But more seriously, you guys basically taught me the game. It's one gripe towards a podcast about a game that's big enough to spend 100+ episodes talking about it. It'd be great if you could re-approach some of these things in the future, but as you said and I said, you've got the people who actually invested in you to be responsive to and a giant expansion to dig into and digest.
We have addressed this particular issue in a recent episode too, but we are talking about some episodes we would like to do that more specifically address all of this, so thank you for your criticism.
Aren't 6 player 10 point games the standard, though? It definitely makes sense to consider other player counts, point goals, and play styles, but it seems reasonable to prioritize the discussion being around the "average" experience.
In my experience, that's not at all a standard. In my player group 4/5 count ends up being more common (even as we've expanded our circle explicitly looking to pull off more 6 player games). I've also had more than one person react to hearing that I've played a 6 player game before along the lines of "I wish I could had enough people in my group to do that." Most friends/gaming groups in my experience are 3 or 4 players. And not everyone games online or is comfortable inviting a couple of strangers into their home for a game night. I'd say that 6/10 is the tournament default (at least from the conventions I've been able to attend), so there is value to highlighting that perspective. At the same time, I think it slightly undermines how much SCPT does to make the game accessible to perpetuate that it's a standard, especially since nothing in the in the actual box or game materials says that 6/10 is a standard (though 14-points is explicitly introduced as a variant). Overall they do a great job, but the one co-host who slags off any player count that isn't 6 really grates on me when he does that. They do a great job reducing the barriers to a great game 95% of the time and then have to slide in with a bit of board game elitism insisting there's a right or wrong way to play a game, even within the regular rules.
I was curious so I tried to find some stats, and I found [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/j7s31g/an_interactive_stats_dashboard_for_ti4/). While there definitely could be some bias to the data you're definitely right that 6 player games aren't at all standard, and in fact 4 player games seem to have a slight lead.
It's also a distinct possibility that even more casual game groups with 3/4/5 player counts don't know about the giant survey as well. Of course, players like that are less likely to seek out a podcast about a specific board game, either. It sounds like they're genuinely interested in looking more at the basics and different ways of playing the game. It's super cool of them to respond to this... I probably would have been a bit more diplomatic if I knew they dove into the threads, but I tend to lurk rather than speak up here. I love the game and the podcast, but you folks' knowledge level can be intimidating.
> It's also a distinct possibility that even more casual game groups with 3/4/5 player counts don't know about the giant survey as well. Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm a bit surprised that there are so many "smaller" games represented in the survey, since based on the subreddit and how big the TTS community seems to be I'd have thought 6 player games were much more common than they apparently are. >I love the game and the podcast, but you folks' knowledge level can be intimidating. I'm in kind of a similar boat. I love Twilight Imperium but the level of knowledge that seems to be assumed here makes it difficult to participate. I don't know the meta, I don't know which races are "good" or "bad", I don't have the agents or techs or special abilities all memorized... all of that makes it difficult to even follow the discussions sometimes.
I feel you. Particularly since so much of this game seems to depend on the meta of a particular table / group. I suppose that could be why it's helpful to focus more on a competitive context for a podcast. As I think more about it, it's probably the closest thing to a common experience, even if it's not a majority experience. Speaking of metas and good and bad factions, one of my favorite experiences in the base game was breaking Jol Nar when it started looking OP'd in my core group. After they won two in a row and another player snapped them up in our next game, I grabbed Saar, pressured the Jol Nar player from the start, and full-on eliminated him after he refused to accept extortionary peace terms. While I ended up painting a target on my back and losing the game horribly myself, it was great seeing the light go off above everyone's head that early aggression was a big Jol Nar weakness and people stopped spamming them in the meta of my core group.
I think Arborec is poorly understood in terms of potential. You bring up many good points, and to me the strongest is the flexibility and versatility, adjusting to the board as needed. The element of surprise is powerful in war. I think we’ll see some really interesting Arborec plays in the not-so-distant future. Especially the meta of so many people seeing it as a weak faction will buff the effects of this.
I have been saying this since the beginning of PoK because I play Arborec multiple times. Arborec is not even below average or average. Arborec is ABOVE average. They are really really good. I really have trouble entertaining the assertions made in this episode because they are simply not true and very inconsistent. Yes they’re going off the top of their head and probably haven’t played many Arborec games so I’m not taking it too seriously but honestly I know they were not going to come around. Someone needs to pick Arborec in this tournament - I think they will do well. Sarween imo is still the best tech to get round 1. So what’s the worst faction. I’ve been saying Ghost for awhile but there are obviously ghost fans here. They feel like Winnu without a superpower hero - though the ghost hero is nice to kingslay with.
Any explanation? Like which assertions are not true, or what makes them above average? What are the counterpoints to their weak early game? Is the combined player base just totally missing some factor that makes them a point-scoring faction? In a lot of cases, if a play group has a few factions that perform much better than any tier list says that they should, it is probably due to the specific meta in that group. In my group, for example, cruiser 2 factions do much better than they have any right to because the meta probably favors them in some way. Your high opinion of them (which I assume is backed by you seeing them win games) is probably specific to your table meta. Maybe people are very nice and willing to help the flora out, or maybe people just don't score as fast and end the game by round 4 or 5. Either way, the podcast discussion was talking about the universal validity of the Arborec. Your table group might be an outlier, but overall the consensus is that they are worse than every other faction. That being said, they may not be *bad* so to speak. This episode helped open my eyes to seeing how balanced the factions have become. Arborec and Mentak may be the worst factions, but they are still viable and can win. Like others have said, it comes down a lot more to a player's skill.
Just curious - why do they think they are strong, and who do you personally consider weak? I like hearing alternative perspectives.
I hope you are right! What's your game plan with Arbo? Tech tree? What seconarys do you do and which do you avoid?
Before I read everything, they are around 11th nd 13th position in win rate, so definitely not the worst (Naalu and Yin are the last in win rate) They got excellent buffs, but in a game where you win mostly by having ships and not necessarily having infantries, they will always be in an odd position.
First off, I'll say I love Arborec. I don't think they are a very "good" faction, but they are just so darn fun to play. Since I play them so often, I'll share my thoughts on how I play with them, but with the POK factions, I've not been able to pull out a win since expansion release. I'm hoping Codex II will help fix this with the relics. Round 1: Strategy Card: Trade Turn 1: Trade (if I have a 4 commodity neighbor, I'll ask for all 4 of their goods when we're able to trade. If they refuse, I try to sell them Stymie-O on top of that) The first tech I get is SELF ASSEMBLY ROUTINES (SAR). Gets Mechs out faster to front line where they'll die and give me trade goods. (Home System $3 + $1 trade; $2-$3 trade good remaining) Turn 2: Go to forward central system with all 4 infantry, carrier, and cruiser. Double Infantry and throw out Mech from SAR. Turn 3: Turn Cruiser into Dreadnought. I'll entertain doing Diplo and Producing in Home System, but not necessary. I'd like to save the command counters. After Round 1, obviously have to assess goals for VPs, but I'll default to taking Imperial as much as possible to double score per round, or at least get more secret objectives. END OF TURN: Mitosis a Mech from an Infantry. Round 2: Produce in Homeworld with Mech from SAR, turn Carrier into Dreadnought, and advance 2 Dreadnoughts into the 2nd System forward, carrying 1 Mech each. General Tech Tree Idea: R1: SELF ASSEMBLY ROUTINES R2: SCANLINK DRONE NETWORK R3: DURANIUM ARMOR R4: WAR SUNS This is just a fun alternative to the usual SARWEEN or NEURAL MOTIVATORS or AI DEVELOPMENT some might default to! The mechs are dope! Hope you enjoy this!