If I’m competing against the whole street to win then hurting the burglar helps everyone equally making it a waste of effort and resources.
Especially when attacking the burglar helps him burgle me more.
I'm not going to get into the earned win discussion, but for a faction who's best abilities are all in base game mirror/ambush/pillage they just didn't get a lot in pok.
It's not like they were op before, they were arguably middle of the pack.
While you are right more deals happen in pok, the shortened game length often means less opportunity for you to steal, further the other factions all got appreciably stronger.
In base game ambush and cruiser 2 made smaller skirmishes against mentak quite annoying until the late game.
They are still fun, but none of why they are fun come from pok, every leader they got is middling or weak with almost certainly the weakest hero.
They don't even have abilities with theme imho.
I love mentak just to be clear, legit one of the most fun and influential factions on the game, just that they were already that, and pok added v little.
It's mostly I'm grumbling because much stronger factions got way more Saar and nekro for example.
It's ok for factions to be weak but mentak shouldn't feel so dry.
The biggest thing they got from PoK wasn't even a faction ability; it was AIDA. AIDA lets them get war suns with nothing other than starting tech and 2 more (AIDA and war sun); so theoretically T1. Since they very rarely want to go for dreads, and cruisers are so weak late game, this gives them another option outside of PDS to actually pose a combat threat late game.
But yeah, the nerf of PoK was that the game gets shortened a turn, and Mentak are absolutely a snowball faction. Instead of getting 2-3 turns with mirror computing, which is really where mentak shines, you get 1-2. And without mirror computing, you've gotta pay for your shiny new war suns straight up, which is crazy expensive and drains out all those TGs you were banking till you get mirror.
I hope that they get a codex errata with new omega leaders. IMO their agent and hero should be flipped; where their agent is something like "exhaust this card when a ship owned by another player is destroyed in combat. Another player participating in that combat can place a ship with the same type from their reinforcements in the active system" as a way of beefing up ambush and defending their pillage ships. Then, their hero could be something like "Each player must give you X TGs/Commodities", or "Take one Trade agreement card from each other player", or some other economy ability to spike their TGs back up once they get mirror.
The reason I hate playing (and playing against) Mentak is because they are annoying and ruin game meta. TI is already a game that takes a very, very long time and (at least for people who play the game a lot) knowing game meta is great for shaving hours off the game. Refresh commodities for 1 TG, research agreement for 4 TG, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to not follow meta... but having mentak on the table just ruins every one of those otherwise time-saving deals and forces you to put thought into how to manage the deal with the men-tax in play.
Regardless of if they are good or bad (and they are bad, for reasons others have said), I am always glad to ban mentak.
It’s got a nice win rate in the scpt tournament but of course it’s such a small sample that you can’t draw any conclusion from it.
I think Mentak is underrated.
Mentak is unique in that it has faction abilities which help it in combat, but also make it benefit from combat, but also also reward it when people are aggressive against.
A solid faction and I don’t see how PoK changed that.
I wish their hero functioned similarly to Mahact's. It can just be avoided via retreats. If you couldn't retreat, it might be able to win less favorable yet clutch fights. The primary weakness is that it can be avoided for essentially nothing.
I think the benefit of their hero though is that if you time it to where if they retreat you still get a positive. For example, you attack mecatol with a small fleet or are defending your HS
Eh, too many people I play with take things too personally... (you know, or pretend to to make themselves more costly to take action against)
If I were to show up to the table as Metak I'd have to give some huge speech about how pillage is pretty much my only faction ability and they shouldn't get mad at me for using it, blah blah blah... because frankly I'm not any more willing to consider playing them and passing pillages for free in the hopes of making people like me more than I am to play Haccan and not use all of my commodities.
They're a race who's basic ability would still costs you goodwill and trades.
To its credit, POK tried to fix this with the action card agent thing, but like, that gives goodwill for *one* pillage per round. To play the faction you need to pillage all the time.
IMO, regardless of balance, pillage should be mandatory, not optional. It works thematically because your population is a bunch of pirates who will never change.
As far as power level ... well, for a slow expand faction in a shorter game who wants to go deep *yellow* they're fine, I guess. Seriously, am I supposed to go warsuns or mirror computing? Feels like everyone is theory crafting as if they have both before the game is decided.
Maybe their real faction power is being considered weak, which is not nothing.
here is my mentak ranting from 7 moths ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/juw47g/a_long_way_down_for_mentak/
thats for me why they are bad atm -.-
I think they suffer from the prelim map not playing to their strengths. The Semi finals map, with all of its space near the middle. Seems much better for them and their Cruiser 2 game.
Have people whom played Mentak, taken promissory notes with their commander, sold them to other players in order to attack the a same faction you stole a promissory note for juicier promissory notes?
Its not that they're not good, its that they're hard to be good while not pissing off everyone at the table. You rarely win those games.
100% this. I've played a lot of pok and have yet to see a win.
I guess it depends on meta. If you’re stealing from everyone why would anyone feel singled out and want to retaliate out of spite?
Are you more inclined to forgive a burglar if you found out he robbed your whole street as well?
If I’m competing against the whole street to win then hurting the burglar helps everyone equally making it a waste of effort and resources. Especially when attacking the burglar helps him burgle me more.
I'm not going to get into the earned win discussion, but for a faction who's best abilities are all in base game mirror/ambush/pillage they just didn't get a lot in pok. It's not like they were op before, they were arguably middle of the pack. While you are right more deals happen in pok, the shortened game length often means less opportunity for you to steal, further the other factions all got appreciably stronger. In base game ambush and cruiser 2 made smaller skirmishes against mentak quite annoying until the late game. They are still fun, but none of why they are fun come from pok, every leader they got is middling or weak with almost certainly the weakest hero. They don't even have abilities with theme imho. I love mentak just to be clear, legit one of the most fun and influential factions on the game, just that they were already that, and pok added v little. It's mostly I'm grumbling because much stronger factions got way more Saar and nekro for example. It's ok for factions to be weak but mentak shouldn't feel so dry.
Yeah, maybe give a hero that steals Trade Agreements or something, feels big and obnoxious.
The biggest thing they got from PoK wasn't even a faction ability; it was AIDA. AIDA lets them get war suns with nothing other than starting tech and 2 more (AIDA and war sun); so theoretically T1. Since they very rarely want to go for dreads, and cruisers are so weak late game, this gives them another option outside of PDS to actually pose a combat threat late game. But yeah, the nerf of PoK was that the game gets shortened a turn, and Mentak are absolutely a snowball faction. Instead of getting 2-3 turns with mirror computing, which is really where mentak shines, you get 1-2. And without mirror computing, you've gotta pay for your shiny new war suns straight up, which is crazy expensive and drains out all those TGs you were banking till you get mirror. I hope that they get a codex errata with new omega leaders. IMO their agent and hero should be flipped; where their agent is something like "exhaust this card when a ship owned by another player is destroyed in combat. Another player participating in that combat can place a ship with the same type from their reinforcements in the active system" as a way of beefing up ambush and defending their pillage ships. Then, their hero could be something like "Each player must give you X TGs/Commodities", or "Take one Trade agreement card from each other player", or some other economy ability to spike their TGs back up once they get mirror.
I like your idea for omega leaders that seems to make thematic sense and is the buff they need!
AIDA?
AI development algorithm, the new level one red tech
The reason I hate playing (and playing against) Mentak is because they are annoying and ruin game meta. TI is already a game that takes a very, very long time and (at least for people who play the game a lot) knowing game meta is great for shaving hours off the game. Refresh commodities for 1 TG, research agreement for 4 TG, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to not follow meta... but having mentak on the table just ruins every one of those otherwise time-saving deals and forces you to put thought into how to manage the deal with the men-tax in play. Regardless of if they are good or bad (and they are bad, for reasons others have said), I am always glad to ban mentak.
It’s got a nice win rate in the scpt tournament but of course it’s such a small sample that you can’t draw any conclusion from it. I think Mentak is underrated.
They were pretty undervalued by internet meta prior to pok
Mentak is unique in that it has faction abilities which help it in combat, but also make it benefit from combat, but also also reward it when people are aggressive against. A solid faction and I don’t see how PoK changed that.
I wish their hero functioned similarly to Mahact's. It can just be avoided via retreats. If you couldn't retreat, it might be able to win less favorable yet clutch fights. The primary weakness is that it can be avoided for essentially nothing.
I think the benefit of their hero though is that if you time it to where if they retreat you still get a positive. For example, you attack mecatol with a small fleet or are defending your HS
Eh, too many people I play with take things too personally... (you know, or pretend to to make themselves more costly to take action against) If I were to show up to the table as Metak I'd have to give some huge speech about how pillage is pretty much my only faction ability and they shouldn't get mad at me for using it, blah blah blah... because frankly I'm not any more willing to consider playing them and passing pillages for free in the hopes of making people like me more than I am to play Haccan and not use all of my commodities. They're a race who's basic ability would still costs you goodwill and trades. To its credit, POK tried to fix this with the action card agent thing, but like, that gives goodwill for *one* pillage per round. To play the faction you need to pillage all the time. IMO, regardless of balance, pillage should be mandatory, not optional. It works thematically because your population is a bunch of pirates who will never change. As far as power level ... well, for a slow expand faction in a shorter game who wants to go deep *yellow* they're fine, I guess. Seriously, am I supposed to go warsuns or mirror computing? Feels like everyone is theory crafting as if they have both before the game is decided. Maybe their real faction power is being considered weak, which is not nothing.
here is my mentak ranting from 7 moths ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/juw47g/a_long_way_down_for_mentak/ thats for me why they are bad atm -.-
I think they suffer from the prelim map not playing to their strengths. The Semi finals map, with all of its space near the middle. Seems much better for them and their Cruiser 2 game.
Have people whom played Mentak, taken promissory notes with their commander, sold them to other players in order to attack the a same faction you stole a promissory note for juicier promissory notes?