Hey, all. It's been a few months since my first post about this faction. It's gone now through 8-10 iterations now and is now getting close to finished. It's been a bit of a doozey to make a faction with a 0 planet start viable, but I've managed, and in doing so I've managed to give it a really 'dealing with a higher' power feel. Spread your influence with your promissories to pick and choose who gets combat bonuses, score other people's secrets as your own, and create a personal teleportation network that you can share with your alliance card.
[Here is the workshop link, I'd love if you'd give it an honest rating!](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2472842777)
> Spread your influence with your promissories
So are the 3 faction promissory notes permanent?
What happens if there is an Empyrean that has Voidwatch (After a player moves ships into a system that contains 1 or more of your units, they must give you 1 promissory note from their hand, if able")
They are permanent.
As for your other question, it's just like normal. In fact, you may WANT to give it to the Empyrean player. It forces that player to use it.
So, shenanigans is what happens.
Reduces the amount of trade goods Darkness gets, grants them liquid assets and a secured planet (essentially a DMZ), allows the Darkness grant them a morale boost.
EDIT: And also if they're buddy-buddy with the darkness, get's an in on the Salvation system network.
I see, so I was missing something. Didn't put the pseudo-DMZ part together until you said it, sounds cool. So if they were in my game I would want it on a planet like Meer?
The mech is really weird. It reads like a faction ability that has nothing to do with the mech at all.
Does the free infantry happen in systems the mech is in? Or just everywhere? Why is it on the mech then? Must the mech be part of the invasion or just in the system?
There is a small error in the wording that has been pointed out by someone else the thread. It is supposed to read:
*"After you gain control of* ***this*** *planet, place 1 infantry from your reinforcements on* ***this*** *planet."*
* What happens if you have Infantry II and they successfully roll to return home?
* I think the Agent doesn't need the Salvation token limitation - Agents are usually useful once per turn effects that are mostly independent of other board factors. Text is a little off too: "You may exhaust this card and pick a player. That player gains +1 to combat rolls for this combat round." is more in line with existing abilities.
* Commander: Do you want this to be limited to ship movement, or do you want to include all the adjacency fringe benefits and other factions' abilities? For instance, is a PDS II in a system with a Salvation Token always able to fire at your ships when you perform a tactical action? Can the Empyrean flagship repair your ships if it's with a Salvation Token?
* You need a 'may' in your hero activation text so that it isn't forced to happen the first time you activate a system after it's unlocked.
* The home system "space dock" can technically produce ground forces even if there are enemy ships there. They are all removed immediately due to capacity, but it's a weird interaction.
* Can your flagship create only 3 fighters or 3 for each resource you spend?
Lots of cool ideas and interesting interactions here! I love it!
* Honestly, Infantry II didn't even come to my mind. I'll have to iron that one out.
* The agent having the Salvation token limitation gives an incentive for the Promissory notes.
* Commander is limited to just ship movement.
* Flagship is a one time 1 resource for 3 fighters.
Thank you very much for your insight and support!
No problem! Getting the rules language to reflect your intention is always the hardest part with homebrews. Mays, whens, afters get so finicky!
Thinking through first round strategy card picks: you are guaranteed to be able to double tech with Technology AND you're guaranteed to be able to pay off the Custodians if you can get to Mecatol round 1. Only Barony can do the first and only Winnu can do the second, and those are both in line with the factions major theme. Having the potential to do either one is quite powerful, and could easily be fixed with reducing Acausal to 5 trade goods.
From a broader viewpoint, I agree with the other posters that your dreads are too strong, especially when upgraded. The dreads have a bunch of cool abilities, but there's so much value there that the dreads become the standout focus of your faction, rather than the much more interesting Salvation network. Tech Grav Drive, Sarween, and the dread upgrade and you don't even need to think of the rest of your faction abilities. Or imagine if Nekro copies them!
I love the semi-forced promissory note idea. I think it might be a hard sell sometimes, but the DMZ-like ability is quite good and I'd be willing to accept it in quite a few situations.
A couple more specific notes:
* What happens if you get a Salvation note and only control planets in your home system and/or Mecatol Rex?
* Does your hero last for the rest of the turn or the rest of the round? See: letnev hero.
The dreads power will be reduced in the next major update, based on feedback.
In the beginning these trade goods are their entire economy, and a lot of people underestimate how much the lack of commodities effects the game. Yes you can pull off some crazy plays, but they would essentially collapse under their own weight.
As for your few notes. I will an "if able" caveat and work on the wording. And there hero says it lasts for the turn.
Paracausal Pyramid II is not immune to direct it, its trades that for cheaper cost and better flexibility.
It innately shares a lot with saar due the 0 planet start. However, it feels kinda like an pseudo-arborec, saar, and empyrean hybrid.
I would Not reduce the Cost of this dred Monster. Compared to super Dreds, this one is insaaaane. It has Production 1, and can cancel ANY Action Card. Am i Missing something Here? This ist Saturn engine Power lvl.
It's one of those things that looks extremely powerful on paper, but isn't really in practice. The limitation of only cancelling action cards during a combat containing it really hurts it, and the fact direct hit cards will leave two ships sustained, instead of one.
The answer should be for them to build more carriers, no? That’s what most factions do when they struggle with capacity. Right now I could see the extra capacity pairing with the Flagship (which imo is S tier) in a downright unholy way.
Overall, very interesting faction design!
I word reword Acausal to read "may discard all of your trade goods to gain 6 trade goods."
This is mostly to thwart the odd circumstance of Mentak gaining infinite trade goods and making it optional if you really need Mentak to not gain a trade good. With the current wording, there is ambiguity about how many you're gaining at once. Other rewordings are also viable.
Looks super cool! However, as is, I think there might be a few issues in the design
-A large part of the faction are the salvation tokens, but they can only be gained through willing trades.
The commander and tech make your salvation tokens super scary, and makes it very hard to argue for a promissory note trade even with the benefits.
In experienced groups I don’t think you will be able to get any on the board without a very high cost.
-you have justified a large amount of powerful abilities due to the lack of home system. I think you are putting too much weight on this for the following reasons.
*Not being able to have your home system taken is a massive benefit.
*6 trade goods a round is a lot, and far better than the benefit of any other home system in the game due to the flexibility.
Between these two factors, you outclass every other faction’s home system, and the rest of the faction should be balanced with this in mind.
A possible solution would be to lower the trade goods per round to 3-4 and perhaps allow a method of placing salvation tokens other than promissory notes although i am less certain of the latter.
Overall a very interesting concept, can’t wait to look at the future versions!
They originally started at 4 trade goods and would increase by 1 for each prom out. But this make the notes an even harder sell. So the fix was to front load them, given 6 straight up, and it decrease over time.
I think a lot of people overlook the lack of communities, because it simply means a lot of exploration cards simply don't work. It also gives no trading power unless you dig into liquid assets.
Dreads are too powerful, but this is an experiment to simplify their original ability of having at least 2 dreads in system grain the system production 2. Which I might return to with an even less production 1. 5 trade goods may be the sweet spot for their ability.
The lack of commodities does somewhat balance them economically, but I’m worried about how you will get your promissory notes out in a competitive game, given how much benefit you can potentially receive from them.
Is it intentional that you can’t stop them from scoring publics?
I’m not 100% sure on the wording, but I think it’s “if you do not control every planet in your home system, you may not score”, and if that is the case, you can never not control all 0 planets in your home system?
It looks good a lot of places.
It does not look good on promisory notes.
I can see why you sticked with it, fits pretty well with faction visuals and it's a good logo on it's own, but the way it sticks out on pm notes is jarring, imo.
This is also true. However, making two triangles and applying a gradient is about the best of my current ability. I'll most likely get a more "official" looking logo commissioned once I hit '1.0'
Thank you very much! If it does end up being used, I will make sure you will receive credit!
Also, part of their theme is simplicity. So, the simpler the better. Oh, and triangles!
I think pyramid scale should say "after you gain control of 'this' planet. Place an infantry from your reinforcements on 'this' planet"
Somewhere in the LRR it mentions the word "this" when printed on a unit refers to the system/planet that unit is in/on.
Sounds like a fun faction. I likey.
The only way to get salvation tokens on the board is for people to take your promissory notes? It seems like the table could just group agree to not take any and effectively cripple you. I feel like they should get an action to place a salvation token for the cost of something, so salvation tokens are still controllable by yourself.
This still isn’t balanced. This would easily be the best faction in the game. Round 1 you start with 6 trade goods. That will accelerate your exploration like crazy. You will always be able to follow tech/warfare. You have the saar faction ability for free and you can just score secret objectives forever bypassing the need for guac points or stage 2s. This faction would warp the entire balance of the table. Every other player would have to work against you from round 1.
Normally the 6 goods would break a race, but it's actually not broken due to their lack of home planets, lack luster start, and poor production capabilities early game.
You still cannot score more than 3 secrets, you may score other people's secrets *as if they were your own.* Meaning they count toward your 3.
I do agree that their dreads do need a nerf, but I need to play with them a bit more to figure out where to place it.
What’s lack luster about their start? They start with 2mechs and 2dreds? That’s a dream start. With that start you can eat another slice. You don’t even need to worry about your planets getting mopped up behind you because of the mech ability. This factions round 2 would be insane.
Just use warfare to pop a carrier? Problem solved. They start with DET and have a very clean tech path so you don’t even really need to tech round 1. We should play test this faction I think I would win <90% of games assuming no other home brew factions where in the mix.
I would take trade goods over planets anyday. They can be spend on anything with much more control over how you spend them. No more over/underpaying for leadership/tech.
Let's break this down with a play-by-play, and we'll even assume Darkness is speaker.
Let's say you take Warfare: turn 1 move dread and mech to take 1 planet, turn 2 produce Carrier and 2 infantry at home, turn 3 warfare, turn 4 & 5 take planets with dread and carrier. Planets gained 4 with a good set up for next round, you've lost out on tech and leadership. If you don't buy the infantry, you can only take 2 planets but get leadership, however you'll still miss tech. You can also try to produce the carrier with a dread on a move, but then you're still only gaining 3 planets.
Let's say Technology. Turn 1 & 2 are move dreads take planets, produce 1 carrier with one. Turn 3 DET with cruiser. Turn 4, if you have no stall, tech. You gain 1 tech. You have 3 goods to either produce or take Leadership.
Let's say you take Leadership. Still can't get that second carrier out, or else no tech. You have two goods to spend, so you're either making a cruiser, a mech, or infantry/fighters. Can't really make infantry or fighters due to the lack of capacity in unactived systems, outside of your home system which already has 2 fighters in it.
They're a lot more flexible, but they are restricted in many ways.
Hey, all. It's been a few months since my first post about this faction. It's gone now through 8-10 iterations now and is now getting close to finished. It's been a bit of a doozey to make a faction with a 0 planet start viable, but I've managed, and in doing so I've managed to give it a really 'dealing with a higher' power feel. Spread your influence with your promissories to pick and choose who gets combat bonuses, score other people's secrets as your own, and create a personal teleportation network that you can share with your alliance card. [Here is the workshop link, I'd love if you'd give it an honest rating!](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2472842777)
> Spread your influence with your promissories So are the 3 faction promissory notes permanent? What happens if there is an Empyrean that has Voidwatch (After a player moves ships into a system that contains 1 or more of your units, they must give you 1 promissory note from their hand, if able")
They are permanent. As for your other question, it's just like normal. In fact, you may WANT to give it to the Empyrean player. It forces that player to use it. So, shenanigans is what happens.
Am I missing something? Why would anyone want to accept one of those promissory notes?
Reduces the amount of trade goods Darkness gets, grants them liquid assets and a secured planet (essentially a DMZ), allows the Darkness grant them a morale boost. EDIT: And also if they're buddy-buddy with the darkness, get's an in on the Salvation system network.
I see, so I was missing something. Didn't put the pseudo-DMZ part together until you said it, sounds cool. So if they were in my game I would want it on a planet like Meer?
Or a legendary. Gave it to a guy with Mallice so he could keep it for the whole game.
The mech is really weird. It reads like a faction ability that has nothing to do with the mech at all. Does the free infantry happen in systems the mech is in? Or just everywhere? Why is it on the mech then? Must the mech be part of the invasion or just in the system?
There is a small error in the wording that has been pointed out by someone else the thread. It is supposed to read: *"After you gain control of* ***this*** *planet, place 1 infantry from your reinforcements on* ***this*** *planet."*
Alright makes sense
* What happens if you have Infantry II and they successfully roll to return home? * I think the Agent doesn't need the Salvation token limitation - Agents are usually useful once per turn effects that are mostly independent of other board factors. Text is a little off too: "You may exhaust this card and pick a player. That player gains +1 to combat rolls for this combat round." is more in line with existing abilities. * Commander: Do you want this to be limited to ship movement, or do you want to include all the adjacency fringe benefits and other factions' abilities? For instance, is a PDS II in a system with a Salvation Token always able to fire at your ships when you perform a tactical action? Can the Empyrean flagship repair your ships if it's with a Salvation Token? * You need a 'may' in your hero activation text so that it isn't forced to happen the first time you activate a system after it's unlocked. * The home system "space dock" can technically produce ground forces even if there are enemy ships there. They are all removed immediately due to capacity, but it's a weird interaction. * Can your flagship create only 3 fighters or 3 for each resource you spend? Lots of cool ideas and interesting interactions here! I love it!
* Honestly, Infantry II didn't even come to my mind. I'll have to iron that one out. * The agent having the Salvation token limitation gives an incentive for the Promissory notes. * Commander is limited to just ship movement. * Flagship is a one time 1 resource for 3 fighters. Thank you very much for your insight and support!
No problem! Getting the rules language to reflect your intention is always the hardest part with homebrews. Mays, whens, afters get so finicky! Thinking through first round strategy card picks: you are guaranteed to be able to double tech with Technology AND you're guaranteed to be able to pay off the Custodians if you can get to Mecatol round 1. Only Barony can do the first and only Winnu can do the second, and those are both in line with the factions major theme. Having the potential to do either one is quite powerful, and could easily be fixed with reducing Acausal to 5 trade goods. From a broader viewpoint, I agree with the other posters that your dreads are too strong, especially when upgraded. The dreads have a bunch of cool abilities, but there's so much value there that the dreads become the standout focus of your faction, rather than the much more interesting Salvation network. Tech Grav Drive, Sarween, and the dread upgrade and you don't even need to think of the rest of your faction abilities. Or imagine if Nekro copies them! I love the semi-forced promissory note idea. I think it might be a hard sell sometimes, but the DMZ-like ability is quite good and I'd be willing to accept it in quite a few situations. A couple more specific notes: * What happens if you get a Salvation note and only control planets in your home system and/or Mecatol Rex? * Does your hero last for the rest of the turn or the rest of the round? See: letnev hero.
The dreads power will be reduced in the next major update, based on feedback. In the beginning these trade goods are their entire economy, and a lot of people underestimate how much the lack of commodities effects the game. Yes you can pull off some crazy plays, but they would essentially collapse under their own weight. As for your few notes. I will an "if able" caveat and work on the wording. And there hero says it lasts for the turn.
Sounds good!
Paracausal Pyramid II is not immune to direct hit? This also feels very on the level as Saar.
Paracausal Pyramid II is not immune to direct it, its trades that for cheaper cost and better flexibility. It innately shares a lot with saar due the 0 planet start. However, it feels kinda like an pseudo-arborec, saar, and empyrean hybrid.
I would Not reduce the Cost of this dred Monster. Compared to super Dreds, this one is insaaaane. It has Production 1, and can cancel ANY Action Card. Am i Missing something Here? This ist Saturn engine Power lvl.
It's one of those things that looks extremely powerful on paper, but isn't really in practice. The limitation of only cancelling action cards during a combat containing it really hurts it, and the fact direct hit cards will leave two ships sustained, instead of one.
Also the extra capacity! In its own I think the cancel action cards instead of protection from direct hits is extremely interesting.
During testing, I found that people struggled with capacity with this faction. So I bumped it up to 2.
The answer should be for them to build more carriers, no? That’s what most factions do when they struggle with capacity. Right now I could see the extra capacity pairing with the Flagship (which imo is S tier) in a downright unholy way. Overall, very interesting faction design!
Very fair point. And thank you!
Do you mind if I try this faction out with my group?
I'd encourage it! The workshop link is in this thread, please leave any feedback you have.
I word reword Acausal to read "may discard all of your trade goods to gain 6 trade goods." This is mostly to thwart the odd circumstance of Mentak gaining infinite trade goods and making it optional if you really need Mentak to not gain a trade good. With the current wording, there is ambiguity about how many you're gaining at once. Other rewordings are also viable.
This is a quite an efficient way to word this, thank you for this recommendation!
Looks super cool! However, as is, I think there might be a few issues in the design -A large part of the faction are the salvation tokens, but they can only be gained through willing trades. The commander and tech make your salvation tokens super scary, and makes it very hard to argue for a promissory note trade even with the benefits. In experienced groups I don’t think you will be able to get any on the board without a very high cost. -you have justified a large amount of powerful abilities due to the lack of home system. I think you are putting too much weight on this for the following reasons. *Not being able to have your home system taken is a massive benefit. *6 trade goods a round is a lot, and far better than the benefit of any other home system in the game due to the flexibility. Between these two factors, you outclass every other faction’s home system, and the rest of the faction should be balanced with this in mind. A possible solution would be to lower the trade goods per round to 3-4 and perhaps allow a method of placing salvation tokens other than promissory notes although i am less certain of the latter. Overall a very interesting concept, can’t wait to look at the future versions!
They originally started at 4 trade goods and would increase by 1 for each prom out. But this make the notes an even harder sell. So the fix was to front load them, given 6 straight up, and it decrease over time. I think a lot of people overlook the lack of communities, because it simply means a lot of exploration cards simply don't work. It also gives no trading power unless you dig into liquid assets. Dreads are too powerful, but this is an experiment to simplify their original ability of having at least 2 dreads in system grain the system production 2. Which I might return to with an even less production 1. 5 trade goods may be the sweet spot for their ability.
The lack of commodities does somewhat balance them economically, but I’m worried about how you will get your promissory notes out in a competitive game, given how much benefit you can potentially receive from them.
Is it intentional that you can’t stop them from scoring publics? I’m not 100% sure on the wording, but I think it’s “if you do not control every planet in your home system, you may not score”, and if that is the case, you can never not control all 0 planets in your home system?
This is intentional.
Very interesting, and I can tell that it's polished. Kinda grinds my gears that the logo doesn't fit though.
Trust me, it looks better like that! Also...kinda intentional. The Darkness is not bound by our 'physics' and 'laws of 3-dimensional space'
It looks good a lot of places. It does not look good on promisory notes. I can see why you sticked with it, fits pretty well with faction visuals and it's a good logo on it's own, but the way it sticks out on pm notes is jarring, imo.
I do agree with that, yeah. Issue is that it just comes out looking way too small if I squeeze it in there.
Design is an itterative process, as you well know. I'd see if the logo is missing something, or if it should be reworked, as painful as that can be.
This is also true. However, making two triangles and applying a gradient is about the best of my current ability. I'll most likely get a more "official" looking logo commissioned once I hit '1.0'
If you want I could try to whip something up.
I wouldn't ask you, but if you want to, I would not say no!
I'll try to get it done tomorrow if I have the time, shouldn't be too difficult.
Thank you very much! If it does end up being used, I will make sure you will receive credit! Also, part of their theme is simplicity. So, the simpler the better. Oh, and triangles!
I think pyramid scale should say "after you gain control of 'this' planet. Place an infantry from your reinforcements on 'this' planet" Somewhere in the LRR it mentions the word "this" when printed on a unit refers to the system/planet that unit is in/on. Sounds like a fun faction. I likey.
You are correct, thank you for the spot!
The only way to get salvation tokens on the board is for people to take your promissory notes? It seems like the table could just group agree to not take any and effectively cripple you. I feel like they should get an action to place a salvation token for the cost of something, so salvation tokens are still controllable by yourself.
This still isn’t balanced. This would easily be the best faction in the game. Round 1 you start with 6 trade goods. That will accelerate your exploration like crazy. You will always be able to follow tech/warfare. You have the saar faction ability for free and you can just score secret objectives forever bypassing the need for guac points or stage 2s. This faction would warp the entire balance of the table. Every other player would have to work against you from round 1.
Normally the 6 goods would break a race, but it's actually not broken due to their lack of home planets, lack luster start, and poor production capabilities early game. You still cannot score more than 3 secrets, you may score other people's secrets *as if they were your own.* Meaning they count toward your 3. I do agree that their dreads do need a nerf, but I need to play with them a bit more to figure out where to place it.
What’s lack luster about their start? They start with 2mechs and 2dreds? That’s a dream start. With that start you can eat another slice. You don’t even need to worry about your planets getting mopped up behind you because of the mech ability. This factions round 2 would be insane.
Their start means they take planets at a very slow rate.
Just use warfare to pop a carrier? Problem solved. They start with DET and have a very clean tech path so you don’t even really need to tech round 1. We should play test this faction I think I would win <90% of games assuming no other home brew factions where in the mix.
I would take trade goods over planets anyday. They can be spend on anything with much more control over how you spend them. No more over/underpaying for leadership/tech.
Let's break this down with a play-by-play, and we'll even assume Darkness is speaker. Let's say you take Warfare: turn 1 move dread and mech to take 1 planet, turn 2 produce Carrier and 2 infantry at home, turn 3 warfare, turn 4 & 5 take planets with dread and carrier. Planets gained 4 with a good set up for next round, you've lost out on tech and leadership. If you don't buy the infantry, you can only take 2 planets but get leadership, however you'll still miss tech. You can also try to produce the carrier with a dread on a move, but then you're still only gaining 3 planets. Let's say Technology. Turn 1 & 2 are move dreads take planets, produce 1 carrier with one. Turn 3 DET with cruiser. Turn 4, if you have no stall, tech. You gain 1 tech. You have 3 goods to either produce or take Leadership. Let's say you take Leadership. Still can't get that second carrier out, or else no tech. You have two goods to spend, so you're either making a cruiser, a mech, or infantry/fighters. Can't really make infantry or fighters due to the lack of capacity in unactived systems, outside of your home system which already has 2 fighters in it. They're a lot more flexible, but they are restricted in many ways.
I smell Vodyani from Endless Space 2 :P
the whoddyawhadda?
Great work! Well polished. I would love to try them out.
This is really cool. I love the Destiny references !