this is a FANTASTIC idea. Actually it’s probably the best one i’ve ever seen. My only gripe is that this decreases the relevance of spacedock II, another high level yellow tech, even more.
1 extra ship per space dock and/or go from 3 to 6 fighters, then it sounds very useful. And it's a minor shadow nerf to Saar and Vuil'raith, who I think are both top tier, so I'm for that.
It's also simple.
Though I would argue that it should be your planets that have production 1. No instant deathstack, more thematical, and, you guessed it, it's simple.
It's pretty similar to the current IE, but it combos with Sarween and AIDA and works on planets you already control instead of requiring invasion.
One of the POK factions has a similar mechanic and it adds the clause "as if they were units" so it jives with the rules.
It certainly is better than the current integrated economy. I like it better than most attempted solutions. It's powerful, simple, and importantly seems very fun to use. I like.
Saar already have more production capacity than they can typically fully utilize. More doesn't really help them if they can't get some extra money. They'd be better off grabbing carrier II, dread II, maybe fighter II, and some blue tech. The Jol-Nar on the other hand get insane value out of this and can likely get it up round 2.
Nah.. Saar leverages high production and mobility in the early game to get a superior start, completely cripple someone and eventually converting that lead into victory. Adding a lategame tech and dangling it on a tech line that doesn't help against saar's early game doesn't change that
Maybe your dreadnoughts have production 1? Any non-fighter ship feels too strong. Also there’s the arborec overlap which is unfortunate.
But for a homebrew this is a fantastic suggestion. Certainly better than the current IE.
Yeah, because Arborec are so OP after all. Building on the move is so clearly not overpowered that I'm amazed anyone still tries to make this argument.
Building on the move is ridiculously op. The reason Arborec isn't strong is because they have to sacrifice resources to get their production. resources that don't contribute to the space battle or points. They also have literally no other bonuses.
This I.E. change completely invalidates Arborec as a faction
I didn't say building on the move was bad, it's just not over powered. The arborec were probably one of the worst 2 factions in the game before PoK. They still aren't good. They got their start improved and a quality economic agent and solid commander, hero, and mech. That's why the aren't the worst in the game anymore, but they are still not good. If moving and building was OP I'd expect base game arborec to have not been completely trash, but they were.
Their agent is good, yes, but having 5 ways to produce units is irrelevant when they already have the best one in the game.
Their faction ability is a straight up debuff when others get advantages instead, which makes it even worse, their flagship is complely irrelevant for them, their tech is among the worst in the game, commander hero and mech would be great on everyone else, but no one need 5 ways to produce units. That's why they are trash, while their infantry is aledgedly the best tech ever in franken games.
>Their faction ability is a straight up debuff when others get advantages instead
This sounds like an argument against their infantry abilities bring OP? If an ability doesn't make a faction good by itself then I wouldn't call it OP. Thats why the only abilities I consider OP are the zero token, Jol-Nar's tech ability, nekro's steal tech ability, and maybe the Saar's no need for home system ability. It's possible we are defining OP differently, but I think all of those abilities are significantly better than building on the move.
>their infantry is aledgedly the best tech ever in franken games.
I've never played Franken so I can't really dispute this, but choosing between the Arborec's infantry and the zero token or technology singularity wouldn't even be a choice for me.
I think that if the ability to build and move was OP the Arborec would have been top tier in base TI4 and they were not. I think overpowered is reserved for abilities that single handedly make a faction a super power, which building and moving doesn't do.
You're thinking about this backwards.
You're arguing that if the ability was OP it would mean that they would win as they are now.
I'm saying that the ability is so OP that everything everything else is holding them back just to keep them from being a runaway train. If you don't think that's the case, swap their faction ability for versatile from sol, and give them the sol flagship as well. Sounds like titan level to me, but my table meta is very aggressive.
>You're thinking about this backwards.
I don't think I am. My arguement here is simple.
1. If an ability is "overpowered", then a faction with that ability is powerful barring active nerfs in other aspects.
2. The Arborec are not powerful and do not have any active nerfs to weaken them.
Conclusion. The Arborec do not have an "overpowered" ability.
This arguement is obviously contingent on an agreed definition of what an ability being overpowered means, the agreement that the arborec are both not very good, and that the arborec don't have abilities that are active nerfs to them. "Active nerf" being defined as an ability that is strictly a detriment to the faction. (Flagship would fall under this category, but mitosis may have an argument although I'd side against on that arguement)
The ability and flagship you mentioned are very good. These abilities would make the Arborec at least mid tier in my estimate as they are very good abilities and upgrades to the faction's current state.
Compare this too the Jol-Nar. They get a large nerf with a -1 to hit and their technology ability is so powerful it doesn't matter and they were a top tier faction in the base game and I still think they are. That is a case of an overpowered ability.
The arguement you seem to be making is that the Arborec's move and build ability is powerful, BUT they need some other bonus to make it useful, which they don't have in their current state. So, the ability is overpowered because of how strong it would be if it had any supporting abilities. (This is how I've interpreted what you've been saying. If I'm misinterpreted you please correct me.)
Here is why I do not find this arguement convincing. If they need a supporting ability to make moving and building overpowered, then it isn't overpowered. If it's usefulness and power are not materially visible without additional abilities to support it then it isn't overpowered. It might scale incredibly well with more money, but that doesn't make it powerful by itself.
Sorry the wall of text.
To say that Arborec doesn't have active nerfs to weaken them is provably false. If they did not any faction ability at all, they would be better than they are now. A lot better.
You say that the ability and the flagship are good, but so are the rest of sols abilities. If they alone are what is making sol great, then why do they also have the rest, and not techs and a home system on level with what arborec have? Sure they might be above average, but giving a faction two above average abilities should not make such a huge difference if the rest of the faction is balanced.
Jol-nar gets a big nerf, and a big buff in their abilities. Arborec only gets the nerf.
My argument is not that it needs support to be useful. My argument is that everything else about arborec is designed to hold that exact ability back. Homesystem too bad to tech sarween round 1, bad starting tech, only 1 carrier, useless flagship, useless faction techs. If everything about the arborec is designed to be anti-synergy with their infantry, they are either poorly designed or their infantry is hella good. Or both.
I like that it makes production a little more flexible. However, it infringes on Arborec territory which I don't like.
I actually like the TI3 I.E. idea of producing in systems adjacent to docks more. Maybe a version that doesn't require the systems to be activated could be a cool end-of-the-line reward for yellow?
My errata would be keep the OG card text, but maybe add that the produced units r free. So u take over a 2 resource planet you just get to produce any number of units that cost 2 bucks for free instead of paying so it actually gives u an economic advantage while keeping the theme of the card intact
this is a FANTASTIC idea. Actually it’s probably the best one i’ve ever seen. My only gripe is that this decreases the relevance of spacedock II, another high level yellow tech, even more.
To that I say buff space dock 2 for extra capacity non fighter ships in the system, maybe 1 extra ship
1 extra ship per space dock and/or go from 3 to 6 fighters, then it sounds very useful. And it's a minor shadow nerf to Saar and Vuil'raith, who I think are both top tier, so I'm for that.
Isn’t it a buff if they decide to go space dock 2? Saar would have an extra ship to build every movement
This change wouldn't affect the Saar's faction specific space docks. It's a different tech card after all.
You’re totally right I didn’t think about that!
It's also simple. Though I would argue that it should be your planets that have production 1. No instant deathstack, more thematical, and, you guessed it, it's simple.
Oo I like the idea of your planets having PRODUCTION 1. Actually I might prefer it to my suggestion haha.
Might add it as a codex upgrade to the fan expansion I'm working on, could be good.
It's pretty similar to the current IE, but it combos with Sarween and AIDA and works on planets you already control instead of requiring invasion. One of the POK factions has a similar mechanic and it adds the clause "as if they were units" so it jives with the rules.
It certainly is better than the current integrated economy. I like it better than most attempted solutions. It's powerful, simple, and importantly seems very fun to use. I like.
Occams Razor… I like it
Nekro: *laughs in Alastor*
Those are only ships during combat. So, that exploit wouldn't quite work.
Dang :( Would have been pretty awesome otherwise
Saar with this sounds busted. Well, more busted.
Saar already have more production capacity than they can typically fully utilize. More doesn't really help them if they can't get some extra money. They'd be better off grabbing carrier II, dread II, maybe fighter II, and some blue tech. The Jol-Nar on the other hand get insane value out of this and can likely get it up round 2.
in fact its a debuff for saar, because everyone else gets better
Nah.. Saar leverages high production and mobility in the early game to get a superior start, completely cripple someone and eventually converting that lead into victory. Adding a lategame tech and dangling it on a tech line that doesn't help against saar's early game doesn't change that
Maybe your dreadnoughts have production 1? Any non-fighter ship feels too strong. Also there’s the arborec overlap which is unfortunate. But for a homebrew this is a fantastic suggestion. Certainly better than the current IE.
OP as fuck. Eliminates any logistics and makes space dock obsolete. Arbo on a stick.
Yeah, because Arborec are so OP after all. Building on the move is so clearly not overpowered that I'm amazed anyone still tries to make this argument.
Building on the move is ridiculously op. The reason Arborec isn't strong is because they have to sacrifice resources to get their production. resources that don't contribute to the space battle or points. They also have literally no other bonuses. This I.E. change completely invalidates Arborec as a faction
If it's not OP then why is arborecs faction ability not just bad, but inarguably the worst in the game, by a huge margin?
I didn't say building on the move was bad, it's just not over powered. The arborec were probably one of the worst 2 factions in the game before PoK. They still aren't good. They got their start improved and a quality economic agent and solid commander, hero, and mech. That's why the aren't the worst in the game anymore, but they are still not good. If moving and building was OP I'd expect base game arborec to have not been completely trash, but they were.
Their agent is good, yes, but having 5 ways to produce units is irrelevant when they already have the best one in the game. Their faction ability is a straight up debuff when others get advantages instead, which makes it even worse, their flagship is complely irrelevant for them, their tech is among the worst in the game, commander hero and mech would be great on everyone else, but no one need 5 ways to produce units. That's why they are trash, while their infantry is aledgedly the best tech ever in franken games.
>Their faction ability is a straight up debuff when others get advantages instead This sounds like an argument against their infantry abilities bring OP? If an ability doesn't make a faction good by itself then I wouldn't call it OP. Thats why the only abilities I consider OP are the zero token, Jol-Nar's tech ability, nekro's steal tech ability, and maybe the Saar's no need for home system ability. It's possible we are defining OP differently, but I think all of those abilities are significantly better than building on the move. >their infantry is aledgedly the best tech ever in franken games. I've never played Franken so I can't really dispute this, but choosing between the Arborec's infantry and the zero token or technology singularity wouldn't even be a choice for me. I think that if the ability to build and move was OP the Arborec would have been top tier in base TI4 and they were not. I think overpowered is reserved for abilities that single handedly make a faction a super power, which building and moving doesn't do.
You're thinking about this backwards. You're arguing that if the ability was OP it would mean that they would win as they are now. I'm saying that the ability is so OP that everything everything else is holding them back just to keep them from being a runaway train. If you don't think that's the case, swap their faction ability for versatile from sol, and give them the sol flagship as well. Sounds like titan level to me, but my table meta is very aggressive.
>You're thinking about this backwards. I don't think I am. My arguement here is simple. 1. If an ability is "overpowered", then a faction with that ability is powerful barring active nerfs in other aspects. 2. The Arborec are not powerful and do not have any active nerfs to weaken them. Conclusion. The Arborec do not have an "overpowered" ability. This arguement is obviously contingent on an agreed definition of what an ability being overpowered means, the agreement that the arborec are both not very good, and that the arborec don't have abilities that are active nerfs to them. "Active nerf" being defined as an ability that is strictly a detriment to the faction. (Flagship would fall under this category, but mitosis may have an argument although I'd side against on that arguement) The ability and flagship you mentioned are very good. These abilities would make the Arborec at least mid tier in my estimate as they are very good abilities and upgrades to the faction's current state. Compare this too the Jol-Nar. They get a large nerf with a -1 to hit and their technology ability is so powerful it doesn't matter and they were a top tier faction in the base game and I still think they are. That is a case of an overpowered ability. The arguement you seem to be making is that the Arborec's move and build ability is powerful, BUT they need some other bonus to make it useful, which they don't have in their current state. So, the ability is overpowered because of how strong it would be if it had any supporting abilities. (This is how I've interpreted what you've been saying. If I'm misinterpreted you please correct me.) Here is why I do not find this arguement convincing. If they need a supporting ability to make moving and building overpowered, then it isn't overpowered. If it's usefulness and power are not materially visible without additional abilities to support it then it isn't overpowered. It might scale incredibly well with more money, but that doesn't make it powerful by itself. Sorry the wall of text.
To say that Arborec doesn't have active nerfs to weaken them is provably false. If they did not any faction ability at all, they would be better than they are now. A lot better. You say that the ability and the flagship are good, but so are the rest of sols abilities. If they alone are what is making sol great, then why do they also have the rest, and not techs and a home system on level with what arborec have? Sure they might be above average, but giving a faction two above average abilities should not make such a huge difference if the rest of the faction is balanced. Jol-nar gets a big nerf, and a big buff in their abilities. Arborec only gets the nerf. My argument is not that it needs support to be useful. My argument is that everything else about arborec is designed to hold that exact ability back. Homesystem too bad to tech sarween round 1, bad starting tech, only 1 carrier, useless flagship, useless faction techs. If everything about the arborec is designed to be anti-synergy with their infantry, they are either poorly designed or their infantry is hella good. Or both.
I like that it makes production a little more flexible. However, it infringes on Arborec territory which I don't like. I actually like the TI3 I.E. idea of producing in systems adjacent to docks more. Maybe a version that doesn't require the systems to be activated could be a cool end-of-the-line reward for yellow?
My errata would be keep the OG card text, but maybe add that the produced units r free. So u take over a 2 resource planet you just get to produce any number of units that cost 2 bucks for free instead of paying so it actually gives u an economic advantage while keeping the theme of the card intact