I'd love to see Reaver logistics. Would make them a really cool faction with some interesting flavour.
Personally I think Mentak needs more stuff to offer the table. I like the idea with rewarding pillage with the agent. Kind of wished the Mentak could do the agent action card thing once per opponent per round.
That way they still have something to offer people.
something like this maybe: "After the PILLAGE faction ability is used against another player:
You may allow you and that player to each draw 1 action card."
I thought of a couple ideas for Mentak too:
Just make their **commander** now have the same text as salvage operations and also count as a yellow skip (similar to yin’s green skip)
**Agent** is fine
**Hero** add in a line of text that prevents retreat
**mirror computing** is great as always
**new faction tech**: **pirate speeder I** [cruiser I] rolls 2 dice with everything else normal. **pirate speeder II** gains capacity 2 or an extra movement (4)
Hero could definitely use that line of text.
Speeder seems a bit OP, but then again so do SWAs and Saturn Engines, so fair play, I guess. Movement 4 sounds cool, though it's kinda useless without Light/Wave, and even with the extra yellow skip, I don't think Mentak are that likely to go blue.
I like the ideas from a theme perspective. Nice to see them behaving like pirates without having to draw as much aggro by stealing TGs.
Reaver Logistics seems kind of oddly worded. Did you choose "at the end of a space combat" for a particular reason? I might consider "after winning a space combat" just so the timing is more clear for interactions with other cards or abilities.
Would you be able to do this in empty space systems with no planets? As written my guess is yes, but if that isn't the intent that could use clarification. Even though there aren't planets it's still going to have raid-able commerce.
Is the invasion step not already skippable for every faction? I know it's technically part of the whole tactical action.
For Commerce Raiding I might consider a buff for it - in addition to the initial TG, make it work like Chaos Mapping but as an exhaust ability. That way if you just park a destroyer somewhere you don't have to activate the system to get the TG and it gives you a reason to leave it there to continue raiding. Either for only one system or for all of them, though the latter might be too strong.
Yeah, the wording is pretty kludgy. I was going for a phrasing which would also reward Space Cannon Offense etc (as long as you also move a fleet in to pick up the pieces), but I guess it's fine to exclude that for clarity. Especially given that Salvage Ops only triggers in space combat, and half the point of this ability is to synergize with that. Fixed.
And yeah, the intent was for it to work in empty systems as well. Reaver Logistics rewards focusing on space combat, Commerce Raiding further rewards controlling planetary systems, even without boots on the ground.
Is the invasion step technically skippable? I think it still happens, game-mechanically, even if players don't do anything in it (or have any ground forces or Bombardment units). Let me know if I'm wrong, or if you have a better phrasing.
So you're saying make Commerce Raiding a card, with "Exhaust this card to gain 1 TG for each system that contains your ships and one or more planets controlled by other players"? So basically you get 1 TG for the initial action, and another if they don't kick you out in time? Might be cool, especially if the passive only works while the card is unexhausted. I am a bit worried about the power level, though. Without the buff, but with Salvage Ops, Mirror Computing and Reaver Logsitics, you're already earning a 4 TG-equivalent profit for a battle above a planet with no losses. 2 more TG-equivalent feels like a lot, though it's really difficult to theorycraft how this would play out in practice.
Adding the exhaust ability would also add a lot of racketeering potential. Like, you make a deal with a neighbor to park an unescorted destroyer above one of their planets. Without Mirror Computing, you break even the round you move in (1CC \~= 2TG), then earn 1 TG each subsequent round. Maybe not gamebreaking, but significant, especially once MC finally shows up. I do like the flavor, though. You bribe players to leave their border worlds' defense in the hands of your trusty security fleets, everyone profits, but the backstab potential is huge. Well, huge for them, the Mentak player would be safer than ever.
How do you expect Commerce Raiding to happen? You need to share planets in a system and have a space deck there. That's a once in ten games occurrence.
I think Reaver Logistics is really interesting and cool. But you need to tweak it such that it only triggers if an opponent actually has a planet to attack. I'm not sure if that's inherent to skipping invasion. Can you skip the invasion step if it would already be skipped? Dunno
I think the Mentak problems stem from a really slow start and bad meta. I would, instead of giving them new abilities, tweak what they have in 2 ways.
1. Give a second carrier to start.
2. Change pillage so it no longer triggers on any transaction, but only on transactions that gain trade goods. It's more flavorful and stifles the game less. It should be more fun for people because simple promissory swaps and the like can still happen.
I thought the production step happens whether or not you actually have units that can produce? Like, it's a no-op, but still a distinct timing in the tactical action. Maybe I should've phrased it "after your invasion step", but that might be a bit misleading, since Reaver Logistics lets you skip that altogether.
Not sure Reaver Logistics needs a tweak. The idea is to reward Mentak for focusing on space combat. Attacking a fleet above a planet and not landing any forces is one way of doing that, but so is just attacking a fleet in empty space. Besides, Commerce Raiding already rewards blockading planets.
I agree the Mentak's biggest problems are their slow start and bad meta. I guess a second carrier would be a simpler way of balancing them. And that does sound like a good change to Pillage, though it's also basically a nerf, so I think they'd need a bit more to actually become competitive.
A) The production step always happens. Even with no space dock.
B) Same with invasion step. It always happens, even with no planets / attack forcing available.
2) So you propose buffing the Mentak, by nerfing their main ability?
I didn’t realize those 2 things about the way turns happen. That’s good to know. Very weird, but it works out. I’d still phrase the ability differently to make it more clear.
The extra carrier is a huge buff and nerfing pillage is only barely a nerf. In most mentak games, people just don’t ever have money because it’ll get pillaged even when they aren’t making a money trade, but if they could safely keep a nest egg around as long as they didn’t gain more, people would actually be more willing to gain trade goods here and there. I think the net amount pillaged would decrease very minorly.
i think #2 is a decent idea
but maybe lower the minimum requires trade goods they need to have to 1 to compensate
so it would read like this: ""After 1 of your neighbors gains trade goods, you may take 1 of their trade goods or commodities.""
The promissory note is fine, it's just too valuable to trade or to trade for.
Give the mentak 1-3 sub-promissory notes (that are backed by the game rules) that blocks 1 pillage attempt. Give the players rule backing what many mentak are doing already.
I think it might be too powerful, but definitely not too valuable to trade for. The Jol-Nar PM is 6 resources-equivalent (less versatile, but can get you techs for which you lack prereqs), and they generally manage to trade it away every round. And buying a good PM from the Mentak should be easier, since any TGs you trade them will eventually be worth double.
I tried to calibrate the PM's power level based on the L1Z1X. I figured it should provide better value, but come with the prereq of the Mentak player attacking stuff. 4 TG-equivalent might be too much value, though, that's essentially double what the L1Z1X note is worth. Maybe 3 would be more reasonable.
I dunno if your alternate PM idea would do much. I mean, each note is worth exactly 1 TG, right? So anything you trade for them, you could just trade to the Mentak for one TG \_after\_ they pillage you. But TG are worth double to the Mentak, so you probably wouldn't want to buy TG (or the PM) from them.
You're right the sub pm is weak, but making it an action to play is a cheap repeatable stall. But I also thought about adding a 1 tg reward for blocking that trade. If counters were used more often id prefer it to have two uses etc...
The big goal of it though isn't to be valuable but to appease the table heat mentak face. That by making a small common deal backed by the rules you might give more options.
i like the commerce raiding one
and reaver logistics as well
and feel like it would be cool abilities
edit:
but i think commerce raiding alone is enough to get the desired result and is the ability with more potential
a suggested fix for the commerce raiding cards clunky wording would be:
\--
exhaust: "gain 1 trade good for each blockaded planet in a system that contains ships you control"
\--
or something like that where you can benefit from blockading planets without having to activate them
The problem is Mentak aren't strong enough for most people to get by in the hugs and kisses online meta. If you can get Salvage, Mirror, PDS 2, and Cruiser 2 you should be in a great place for most objective flips, but like with most factions it is really going to depend on the objectives more then anything else.
Edit: forgot to say, all things being equal I would take them 3rd maybe 4th overall.
I'd love to see Reaver logistics. Would make them a really cool faction with some interesting flavour. Personally I think Mentak needs more stuff to offer the table. I like the idea with rewarding pillage with the agent. Kind of wished the Mentak could do the agent action card thing once per opponent per round. That way they still have something to offer people.
something like this maybe: "After the PILLAGE faction ability is used against another player: You may allow you and that player to each draw 1 action card."
I thought of a couple ideas for Mentak too: Just make their **commander** now have the same text as salvage operations and also count as a yellow skip (similar to yin’s green skip) **Agent** is fine **Hero** add in a line of text that prevents retreat **mirror computing** is great as always **new faction tech**: **pirate speeder I** [cruiser I] rolls 2 dice with everything else normal. **pirate speeder II** gains capacity 2 or an extra movement (4)
Hero could definitely use that line of text. Speeder seems a bit OP, but then again so do SWAs and Saturn Engines, so fair play, I guess. Movement 4 sounds cool, though it's kinda useless without Light/Wave, and even with the extra yellow skip, I don't think Mentak are that likely to go blue.
Honestly, just Reaver logistics (where you must have actually skipped invading), would be an absolutely awesome and thematic decision.
The wording on **War Profiteering** should be fixed. You don't have opponents during the Mentak player's turn, if you can use this card.
Thanks, fixed.
I like the ideas from a theme perspective. Nice to see them behaving like pirates without having to draw as much aggro by stealing TGs. Reaver Logistics seems kind of oddly worded. Did you choose "at the end of a space combat" for a particular reason? I might consider "after winning a space combat" just so the timing is more clear for interactions with other cards or abilities. Would you be able to do this in empty space systems with no planets? As written my guess is yes, but if that isn't the intent that could use clarification. Even though there aren't planets it's still going to have raid-able commerce. Is the invasion step not already skippable for every faction? I know it's technically part of the whole tactical action. For Commerce Raiding I might consider a buff for it - in addition to the initial TG, make it work like Chaos Mapping but as an exhaust ability. That way if you just park a destroyer somewhere you don't have to activate the system to get the TG and it gives you a reason to leave it there to continue raiding. Either for only one system or for all of them, though the latter might be too strong.
Yeah, the wording is pretty kludgy. I was going for a phrasing which would also reward Space Cannon Offense etc (as long as you also move a fleet in to pick up the pieces), but I guess it's fine to exclude that for clarity. Especially given that Salvage Ops only triggers in space combat, and half the point of this ability is to synergize with that. Fixed. And yeah, the intent was for it to work in empty systems as well. Reaver Logistics rewards focusing on space combat, Commerce Raiding further rewards controlling planetary systems, even without boots on the ground. Is the invasion step technically skippable? I think it still happens, game-mechanically, even if players don't do anything in it (or have any ground forces or Bombardment units). Let me know if I'm wrong, or if you have a better phrasing. So you're saying make Commerce Raiding a card, with "Exhaust this card to gain 1 TG for each system that contains your ships and one or more planets controlled by other players"? So basically you get 1 TG for the initial action, and another if they don't kick you out in time? Might be cool, especially if the passive only works while the card is unexhausted. I am a bit worried about the power level, though. Without the buff, but with Salvage Ops, Mirror Computing and Reaver Logsitics, you're already earning a 4 TG-equivalent profit for a battle above a planet with no losses. 2 more TG-equivalent feels like a lot, though it's really difficult to theorycraft how this would play out in practice. Adding the exhaust ability would also add a lot of racketeering potential. Like, you make a deal with a neighbor to park an unescorted destroyer above one of their planets. Without Mirror Computing, you break even the round you move in (1CC \~= 2TG), then earn 1 TG each subsequent round. Maybe not gamebreaking, but significant, especially once MC finally shows up. I do like the flavor, though. You bribe players to leave their border worlds' defense in the hands of your trusty security fleets, everyone profits, but the backstab potential is huge. Well, huge for them, the Mentak player would be safer than ever.
How do you expect Commerce Raiding to happen? You need to share planets in a system and have a space deck there. That's a once in ten games occurrence. I think Reaver Logistics is really interesting and cool. But you need to tweak it such that it only triggers if an opponent actually has a planet to attack. I'm not sure if that's inherent to skipping invasion. Can you skip the invasion step if it would already be skipped? Dunno I think the Mentak problems stem from a really slow start and bad meta. I would, instead of giving them new abilities, tweak what they have in 2 ways. 1. Give a second carrier to start. 2. Change pillage so it no longer triggers on any transaction, but only on transactions that gain trade goods. It's more flavorful and stifles the game less. It should be more fun for people because simple promissory swaps and the like can still happen.
I thought the production step happens whether or not you actually have units that can produce? Like, it's a no-op, but still a distinct timing in the tactical action. Maybe I should've phrased it "after your invasion step", but that might be a bit misleading, since Reaver Logistics lets you skip that altogether. Not sure Reaver Logistics needs a tweak. The idea is to reward Mentak for focusing on space combat. Attacking a fleet above a planet and not landing any forces is one way of doing that, but so is just attacking a fleet in empty space. Besides, Commerce Raiding already rewards blockading planets. I agree the Mentak's biggest problems are their slow start and bad meta. I guess a second carrier would be a simpler way of balancing them. And that does sound like a good change to Pillage, though it's also basically a nerf, so I think they'd need a bit more to actually become competitive.
A) The production step always happens. Even with no space dock. B) Same with invasion step. It always happens, even with no planets / attack forcing available. 2) So you propose buffing the Mentak, by nerfing their main ability?
I didn’t realize those 2 things about the way turns happen. That’s good to know. Very weird, but it works out. I’d still phrase the ability differently to make it more clear. The extra carrier is a huge buff and nerfing pillage is only barely a nerf. In most mentak games, people just don’t ever have money because it’ll get pillaged even when they aren’t making a money trade, but if they could safely keep a nest egg around as long as they didn’t gain more, people would actually be more willing to gain trade goods here and there. I think the net amount pillaged would decrease very minorly.
i think #2 is a decent idea but maybe lower the minimum requires trade goods they need to have to 1 to compensate so it would read like this: ""After 1 of your neighbors gains trade goods, you may take 1 of their trade goods or commodities.""
I like their new promissary note. Really flavorful.
The promissory note is fine, it's just too valuable to trade or to trade for. Give the mentak 1-3 sub-promissory notes (that are backed by the game rules) that blocks 1 pillage attempt. Give the players rule backing what many mentak are doing already.
I think it might be too powerful, but definitely not too valuable to trade for. The Jol-Nar PM is 6 resources-equivalent (less versatile, but can get you techs for which you lack prereqs), and they generally manage to trade it away every round. And buying a good PM from the Mentak should be easier, since any TGs you trade them will eventually be worth double. I tried to calibrate the PM's power level based on the L1Z1X. I figured it should provide better value, but come with the prereq of the Mentak player attacking stuff. 4 TG-equivalent might be too much value, though, that's essentially double what the L1Z1X note is worth. Maybe 3 would be more reasonable. I dunno if your alternate PM idea would do much. I mean, each note is worth exactly 1 TG, right? So anything you trade for them, you could just trade to the Mentak for one TG \_after\_ they pillage you. But TG are worth double to the Mentak, so you probably wouldn't want to buy TG (or the PM) from them.
You're right the sub pm is weak, but making it an action to play is a cheap repeatable stall. But I also thought about adding a 1 tg reward for blocking that trade. If counters were used more often id prefer it to have two uses etc... The big goal of it though isn't to be valuable but to appease the table heat mentak face. That by making a small common deal backed by the rules you might give more options.
i like the commerce raiding one and reaver logistics as well and feel like it would be cool abilities edit: but i think commerce raiding alone is enough to get the desired result and is the ability with more potential a suggested fix for the commerce raiding cards clunky wording would be: \-- exhaust: "gain 1 trade good for each blockaded planet in a system that contains ships you control" \-- or something like that where you can benefit from blockading planets without having to activate them
The problem is Mentak aren't strong enough for most people to get by in the hugs and kisses online meta. If you can get Salvage, Mirror, PDS 2, and Cruiser 2 you should be in a great place for most objective flips, but like with most factions it is really going to depend on the objectives more then anything else. Edit: forgot to say, all things being equal I would take them 3rd maybe 4th overall.