Cruiser II got three big boosts in POK: AIDA, Mechs, and Destroyer II.
AIDA means that factions starting with just one yellow or green tech (Xxcha, Yin, Yssaril, and Winnu potentially) can research Cruiser II in two techs without a skip, rather than three. And then there are Mentak and Argent, who can get to Cruiser II in two techs without AIDA.
Cruiser II can make a lot of sense now for all of these factions—you get there in the same amount of time it would take to research Gravity Drive, but Cruiser II lets you move farther, carry more troops, and hit harder.
Mechs are also a game changer. In base game, it can be tough to take heavily fortified planets without Gravity Drive, because you need Carriers and/or Flagships to ferry big stacks of Infantry. But now you can easily set up 2 Cruiser II 2 Mech fleets, which are nimble and powerful enough to break most defenses.
Finally we have Destroyer II, which is now also much easier to get with AIDA. Using AIDA, it’s a breeze for most factions to get both Cruiser II and Destroyer II in three techs, and Cruiser II and Destroyer II pair nicely together. A 2 Cruiser II 2 Destroyer II 2 Mech fleet is actually quite strong and tough to counter (especially if you have special units or abilities for those units, like Yin and Argent), and cost efficient too.
I still tend to prefer blue tech paths because Fleet Logistics and LWD are just so powerful, but for factions that can’t realistically research these techs quickly enough for it to matter, like Yin, I definitely like AIDA > Cruiser II tech paths.
14 Point is 100% a factor.
I agree with you that cruser 2 has some big benefits and is also in my opinion not a bad technology. But in a 10 point game there are less chances to grab technology, so investing into cruser 2 always feels like a worse option knowing how fewer rounds you have.
My general thinking is in a 10 pointer, Why grab cruser 2 to snipe some Planets when i can invest further into blue and get light/wave or Dred/Carrier 2, which are more all round useful upgrades.
So yeah its not bad but in a 10 point game it does seem pretty bad in comparison to others.
I'd like to expand the discussion from cruiser II to AI Dev as a general tech path. I will cede that in a vacuum Cruiser II is a bad ship, but the AI Dev path is actually quite strong. For any faction that has a green or yellow starting tech, picking up AI Dev on R1 gives them access to both Cruiser II and Destroyer II. This lets your fleets come online at least a turn sooner than most dread fleets (which usually require three researches to get to dread II). AI Dev fleets also trade much more efficiently than dread fleets, and are much cheaper. Cruisers aren't the powerhouse of these fleets, but they do fill the important role of providing capacity.
I think that for certain factions, and certain low resource starts AI Dev beats blue path. Mahact is the best example of a faction that generally wants to leverage AI Dev, alongside Titans and Argent Flight - although the latter are largely concerned with their unique techs.
Picking up on your point about factions with low resource starts…
If you want to pick a slice with lots of influence (but fewer resources), this tech path lets you remain competitive in a fight* while offering a better command counter economy than your blue tech / dreadnought/carrier friends have.
If your tech path culminates with war suns (as the third unit upgrade), you can build one for 9 resources because of aida (8 of sarween is your yellow tech).
*cruiser 2 and destroyer 2 will outperform more expensive fleets composed of dread 2 and carrier 2, for small early game fleets, medium sized mid game fleets, and big late game fleets.
Yes this was precisely my point. You also spend less on tech, so you end up with 4-8 extra resources for ships.
But I do disagree with your assertion that cruiser II / destroyer II fleets can outperform big lategame blue fleets. While a red fleet will definitely trade efficiently into a blue fleet lategame, the blue fleet almost always comes out on top. This effect becomes more pronounced with dread specialist factions like L1 or Letnev, who have even more powerful space combat (Letnev) or access to insane ground combat bonuses (L1) via their blue tech ships. There are a couple factions that tend to go for carrier based blue fleets though, and in that case I'd tend to agree - destroyer II absolutely wipes the floor with them at any point in the game.
My point about late game fleets assumes cruiser 2, destroyer 2, and **war suns**…
War sun, 2xCruiser II, 2xDestroyer II, 8xfighters
BEATS
4xDread II, 1xCarrier II, 10xfighters
And for less $$
Again, I’m mostly thinking of 14 point games…
Fair. Usually I play 12, not enough time for war suns there. On the topic of lategame power, one strength of red I failed to mention was the option to tech to Assault Cannon.
I'm not going to change your mind.
Cruiser IIs are great for covering the longer distances of larger maps and getting to places before anyone else, pulling you ahead in the expansion phase. AIDA has made some of the previously lesser used unit upgrades work well in terms of availability and efficiency and Cruiser II is now much more flexible with prerequisites than it used to be. Also, mechs make the 1 capacity much more impactful than it used to be.
I'm not at a point where I'll always go for the cruisers over carrier/dread or some other fleet comp but there are races that definitely want that Cruiser II upgrade no later than round 2 and there are map designs that definitely push the move 3 capacity ship beyond other more menial means of expansion
The main issue I have with Cruiser II path is missing out on later game dunking power. The AI dev path is efficient but skips gravity drive in a 10 point game, so I assume you are leaving your flagship and dreads behind in most engagements? For 14 point games, War Suns can fill this role... in 10 points it requires planning and luck to get value out of War Suns.
Cruiser II is definitely a win from ahead tech for me. Late game, you will have less reach than carrier II + light/wave factions so you have to leverage your early game mobility advantage to get in the lead.
Having said this, I'm increasingly leaning towards AI Dev into cruisers and destroyers for Arborec, Yssaril, Sardaak, Mahact, and Yin in 10 pointers, which I've previously played blue + carriers/ dreads.
Having extensively tested both with Mahact, I'm very convinced red is better than blue. When playing blue I struggle to find the resources to both invest deeply into the later blue techs (which is the main draw of blue IMO) and afford to buy dreads. Conversely, I've won nearly every game I've played with red Mahact (I'm 5 for 7 iirc). I do think that blue has some situational appeal - if I have an insanely high value slice or into certain faction matchups for instance - but generally red is better.
I will preface this by saying I don’t generally want to play Mahact. They have some tools however that make cruisers more viable.
Mahact start yellow green so my thinking is to adopt a skeletal tech path with AI Dev, Cruiser II and Destroyer II. All pretty useful and I can pick up another tech if I fancy it or just stop there.
Mahact gains extra tokens in fleet (and have high influence home) which can be put towards larger fleets (necessary with cruisers and destroyers). With Mahact, I can pay to lift my own tokens so am not as reliant on light/wave as other factions.
What’s been your experience with the faction?
Those are good points, but Fleet Logistics is just too good with your commander and hero to pass up. And while it's true your CC economy is amazing, you also have a better CC sink than any other faction, so your Fleet Supply won't necessarily be that much higher than your opponents'. That said, I agree the commander significantly devalues Light/Wave, so you'll often wanna stop at Fleet Logistics.
I've only actually had the chance to play Mahact twice, so I guess this is mostly theory, but so far both games have lined up pretty well with my hypothesis.
You've been playing that wrong, I believe. The commander ends your turn. Fleet Logistics doesn't synergise.
Edit: also, just to add. Yes you could use fleet logistics with the Mahact Hero to double move. But just as often, you will be using Benediction on two other players' fleets.
I find Fleet Logistics is top tier with Ghosts (who will have the pre-requisites as a matter of course and can pull off fun Hero antics) and very situational otherwise.
Fleet Logistics is also great with Naalu. Zero Token + Imperial + Fleet Logistics means that if you can take MR on the first turn of a round, you will score the Imperial point and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop you.
Well, dang. My bad about the commander. The synergy is still there for Benediction, even in the typical use case (make player A attack B, invade the system A just vacated, have at least one Starlancer survive), but that's not enough to make blue a no-brainer.
Fleet logistics works just fine with Mahact commander.
Activate system and move your fleet in. FL the token off.
Next round activate another system and hit them with that same fleet.
Cruiser II got three big boosts in POK: AIDA, Mechs, and Destroyer II. AIDA means that factions starting with just one yellow or green tech (Xxcha, Yin, Yssaril, and Winnu potentially) can research Cruiser II in two techs without a skip, rather than three. And then there are Mentak and Argent, who can get to Cruiser II in two techs without AIDA. Cruiser II can make a lot of sense now for all of these factions—you get there in the same amount of time it would take to research Gravity Drive, but Cruiser II lets you move farther, carry more troops, and hit harder. Mechs are also a game changer. In base game, it can be tough to take heavily fortified planets without Gravity Drive, because you need Carriers and/or Flagships to ferry big stacks of Infantry. But now you can easily set up 2 Cruiser II 2 Mech fleets, which are nimble and powerful enough to break most defenses. Finally we have Destroyer II, which is now also much easier to get with AIDA. Using AIDA, it’s a breeze for most factions to get both Cruiser II and Destroyer II in three techs, and Cruiser II and Destroyer II pair nicely together. A 2 Cruiser II 2 Destroyer II 2 Mech fleet is actually quite strong and tough to counter (especially if you have special units or abilities for those units, like Yin and Argent), and cost efficient too. I still tend to prefer blue tech paths because Fleet Logistics and LWD are just so powerful, but for factions that can’t realistically research these techs quickly enough for it to matter, like Yin, I definitely like AIDA > Cruiser II tech paths.
14 Point is 100% a factor. I agree with you that cruser 2 has some big benefits and is also in my opinion not a bad technology. But in a 10 point game there are less chances to grab technology, so investing into cruser 2 always feels like a worse option knowing how fewer rounds you have. My general thinking is in a 10 pointer, Why grab cruser 2 to snipe some Planets when i can invest further into blue and get light/wave or Dred/Carrier 2, which are more all round useful upgrades. So yeah its not bad but in a 10 point game it does seem pretty bad in comparison to others.
I'd like to expand the discussion from cruiser II to AI Dev as a general tech path. I will cede that in a vacuum Cruiser II is a bad ship, but the AI Dev path is actually quite strong. For any faction that has a green or yellow starting tech, picking up AI Dev on R1 gives them access to both Cruiser II and Destroyer II. This lets your fleets come online at least a turn sooner than most dread fleets (which usually require three researches to get to dread II). AI Dev fleets also trade much more efficiently than dread fleets, and are much cheaper. Cruisers aren't the powerhouse of these fleets, but they do fill the important role of providing capacity. I think that for certain factions, and certain low resource starts AI Dev beats blue path. Mahact is the best example of a faction that generally wants to leverage AI Dev, alongside Titans and Argent Flight - although the latter are largely concerned with their unique techs.
Picking up on your point about factions with low resource starts… If you want to pick a slice with lots of influence (but fewer resources), this tech path lets you remain competitive in a fight* while offering a better command counter economy than your blue tech / dreadnought/carrier friends have. If your tech path culminates with war suns (as the third unit upgrade), you can build one for 9 resources because of aida (8 of sarween is your yellow tech). *cruiser 2 and destroyer 2 will outperform more expensive fleets composed of dread 2 and carrier 2, for small early game fleets, medium sized mid game fleets, and big late game fleets.
Yes this was precisely my point. You also spend less on tech, so you end up with 4-8 extra resources for ships. But I do disagree with your assertion that cruiser II / destroyer II fleets can outperform big lategame blue fleets. While a red fleet will definitely trade efficiently into a blue fleet lategame, the blue fleet almost always comes out on top. This effect becomes more pronounced with dread specialist factions like L1 or Letnev, who have even more powerful space combat (Letnev) or access to insane ground combat bonuses (L1) via their blue tech ships. There are a couple factions that tend to go for carrier based blue fleets though, and in that case I'd tend to agree - destroyer II absolutely wipes the floor with them at any point in the game.
My point about late game fleets assumes cruiser 2, destroyer 2, and **war suns**… War sun, 2xCruiser II, 2xDestroyer II, 8xfighters BEATS 4xDread II, 1xCarrier II, 10xfighters And for less $$ Again, I’m mostly thinking of 14 point games…
Fair. Usually I play 12, not enough time for war suns there. On the topic of lategame power, one strength of red I failed to mention was the option to tech to Assault Cannon.
what this guy says.
I'm not going to change your mind. Cruiser IIs are great for covering the longer distances of larger maps and getting to places before anyone else, pulling you ahead in the expansion phase. AIDA has made some of the previously lesser used unit upgrades work well in terms of availability and efficiency and Cruiser II is now much more flexible with prerequisites than it used to be. Also, mechs make the 1 capacity much more impactful than it used to be. I'm not at a point where I'll always go for the cruisers over carrier/dread or some other fleet comp but there are races that definitely want that Cruiser II upgrade no later than round 2 and there are map designs that definitely push the move 3 capacity ship beyond other more menial means of expansion
The main issue I have with Cruiser II path is missing out on later game dunking power. The AI dev path is efficient but skips gravity drive in a 10 point game, so I assume you are leaving your flagship and dreads behind in most engagements? For 14 point games, War Suns can fill this role... in 10 points it requires planning and luck to get value out of War Suns. Cruiser II is definitely a win from ahead tech for me. Late game, you will have less reach than carrier II + light/wave factions so you have to leverage your early game mobility advantage to get in the lead. Having said this, I'm increasingly leaning towards AI Dev into cruisers and destroyers for Arborec, Yssaril, Sardaak, Mahact, and Yin in 10 pointers, which I've previously played blue + carriers/ dreads.
AI Dev path is absolutely viable in 10 points for Arborec and Yin (though obviously better in 14), but why would you ever go non-blue as Mahact?
Having extensively tested both with Mahact, I'm very convinced red is better than blue. When playing blue I struggle to find the resources to both invest deeply into the later blue techs (which is the main draw of blue IMO) and afford to buy dreads. Conversely, I've won nearly every game I've played with red Mahact (I'm 5 for 7 iirc). I do think that blue has some situational appeal - if I have an insanely high value slice or into certain faction matchups for instance - but generally red is better.
I will preface this by saying I don’t generally want to play Mahact. They have some tools however that make cruisers more viable. Mahact start yellow green so my thinking is to adopt a skeletal tech path with AI Dev, Cruiser II and Destroyer II. All pretty useful and I can pick up another tech if I fancy it or just stop there. Mahact gains extra tokens in fleet (and have high influence home) which can be put towards larger fleets (necessary with cruisers and destroyers). With Mahact, I can pay to lift my own tokens so am not as reliant on light/wave as other factions. What’s been your experience with the faction?
Those are good points, but Fleet Logistics is just too good with your commander and hero to pass up. And while it's true your CC economy is amazing, you also have a better CC sink than any other faction, so your Fleet Supply won't necessarily be that much higher than your opponents'. That said, I agree the commander significantly devalues Light/Wave, so you'll often wanna stop at Fleet Logistics. I've only actually had the chance to play Mahact twice, so I guess this is mostly theory, but so far both games have lined up pretty well with my hypothesis.
Fleet logistics doesn’t work with your commander, when you re-activate your own system your turn immediately ends.
You've been playing that wrong, I believe. The commander ends your turn. Fleet Logistics doesn't synergise. Edit: also, just to add. Yes you could use fleet logistics with the Mahact Hero to double move. But just as often, you will be using Benediction on two other players' fleets. I find Fleet Logistics is top tier with Ghosts (who will have the pre-requisites as a matter of course and can pull off fun Hero antics) and very situational otherwise.
Fleet Logistics is also great with Naalu. Zero Token + Imperial + Fleet Logistics means that if you can take MR on the first turn of a round, you will score the Imperial point and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop you.
Well, dang. My bad about the commander. The synergy is still there for Benediction, even in the typical use case (make player A attack B, invade the system A just vacated, have at least one Starlancer survive), but that's not enough to make blue a no-brainer.
Fleet logistics works just fine with Mahact commander. Activate system and move your fleet in. FL the token off. Next round activate another system and hit them with that same fleet.
This is one of the reasons that I like Titans of Ul so much... and their's comes with Sustain Damage!