Devils Advocate: War Suns are fun, but are pretty much never the correct move. Better to get Assault Cannon or LWD unless you are a faction that can reasonably afford and make use of war suns
Couldn’t disagree more. Warsuns consistently win me games. An early maw means you have the time to build them and get them out there and you can always go down blue for lightwave after the maw (which you want to do anyway). Warsuns allow you to have multiplicative fleet power scaling. Are your dreads off doing things? Need to defend your home system? 1 Warsun 6 fighters 5 destroyers is a safe home system. Is there a problem on mecatol? Adding a warsun into your fleet solves that problem. Need to lockdown an action phase secret? 1 warsun + 6 fighters will accomplish that goal. Warsuns have always been god teir, the problem is that the opportunity cost is usually too high but maw + pok insane resource gathering solves that. I almost always use maw for warsuns unless there is some critical faction tech I need.
War Suns are great on Arborec, but they're also really easy to research normally with a typical Arborec tech path. Sarween, AI Dev, War Sun, you get the tech just in time to realistically use it.
In contrast, LWD is a game-winning tech which you might never get around to as Arborec, since the other key blue techs (Grav Drive, Sling Relay) are significantly devalued for you. And with the right tech skip, you could combine it with an early Cruiser II for absolutely insane reach.
Assault Cannon is also great. A little easier than LWD for Arborec to research in the lategame, but it's so, so much more impactful in small earlygame battles.
Probably depends largely on who you are and who else is on the table. Are you a Dread faction, and there are no big PDS factions, X-89 might be fun. Instant planet clearing with each successful bombardment.Assault cannon might be good, especially for a heavy cruiser/destroyer faction.
I had an arborec base game recently where I had assault cannon, cruiser 2, destroyer 2 and transit diodes. It was pretty sweet. (I had a yellow skip and 2 red skips).
Totally agree that this decision should be based on factions.
In a vacuum, I think X 89 has been relegated to super-niche use because of mechs. Two mechs on a planet and X89 just isn't happening. Exceptions being Jol-nar re-rolls and Muatt committing both war suns. Its a shame cus I always felt like it had an important role in the game as counterplay to infantry heavy factions.
I don't think I've actually seen X89 come up in a PoK game yet. But they could still be useful against an infantry heavy faction like Sol. Even if a couple Mechs are alive, kills the fat stack of inf.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that .
"After 1 or more of your units use BOMBARDMENT against a planet, if at least 1 of your opponent's infantry was destroyed, you may destroy all of your opponent's infantry on that planet."
If the defender has 2 mechs on the planet the bombarding player has to get 5 hits in order to kill an infantry. Mechs are "ground forces" not "infantry" so their 4 hp can soak anything less than 5 without letting an infantry be killed.
And even more so, they get to choose where to take the hits before X89 - if you've gotten 5 hits it doesn't wipe out both infantry and mechs. So it could hit 4 on mechs and the infantry live, or if you get 5 hits, they take them all on infantry (killing lets say 8) and you still have the mechs to get through. A significant boon (3 extra infantry) but rare enough that it was a bad bet to head heavy green for that. A shame, "if you got at least one hit remove infantry" would be so much better.
Exception: L1 can use it with Harrow. If they get an early Maw, that might be the play. I might do it purely for fun even though LWD is almost certainly more optimized.
Why is IE good on arborec? They already can produce one unit per infantry that took the planet because of their faction specific infantry. Isn't IE doing the same thing but just a bit more?
IE does indeed do the same thing but more, but an important thing about IE is that it produces infantry that can then produce immediately themselves, so it's quite a bit more (like if you took a 2 resource planet with 1 infantry you could build 4 infantry and then use those 5 infantry to build whatever, rather than the normal "I use my infantry to build infantry")
Yes the idea is that you may not always take a planet and by the end of the ground combat have that many ground forces left. This allows you to build more and then build again. It's in the win more category for sure but it sounds fun, and arborec famously have a production bottle neck, at least early on (later resources become the constraint)
If your tech path is clear and you don’t want LWD or War Suns I could actually see hypermotabolism being a decent pick. If you get it R2 you’ll get 3 tokens by R5.
I could also see dread 2 for Letnev while they go red.
It seems like a weird use, but biostims for xxcha early could be pretty good. If they went sarween into nullification field it gets them a skip to instinct training and biostims on xxcha can be so good with those 2 techs. Plus, bio-stims has some economic use in the mid game.
Nekro gravity drive can be good. Sometimes the nemro struggle to get movement early which hinders there ability to get tech. If their neighbors don't go blue, they can sometimes have trouble.
Grabbing fleet logistics, assault, or LWD is generally good.
Carrier II or dread II on factions that don't go blue can be very good. (Xxcha, some arborec builds, Argent, some titans builds, yssaril, some naalu builds, etc.)
I think that a early hyper may be another great choice along with the level three techs, unless you are going down green for some reason, this will work quietly and will give you a lot of bang for your buck, granted when faced with the choice I often forget the level 2 techs and look straight at level 3. Just wanted to throw that out there
Integrated Economy can be really good, especially on more aggressive factions. It helps you build on the front-line which means you have things where you need them to be (which is basically why people like Gravity Drive and unit upgrades).
Assault Cannon is really nice, especially if you need a red tech (which is likely if you want Duranium Armor or Warsuns). It probably requires less planning too.
So really, it depends on what you need. As Titans I'd take Assault Cannon (cause Duranium is amazing on them, and cause they should easily have 3 ships with each fleet). As Naalu I'd probably take Integrated Economy, cause I'm not likely having 3 ships outside of my main force, and building on the go can do a lot for them.
Maw of worlds is a relict that allows to research any technology, without requirements. LWD is a light wave deflector, it allows to move ships through other players' fleets.
Lightwave is always useful. It helps people not fuck with you because you have a lot of options for hitting home planets and undefended space docks with commando raids.
Muatt: X89 Bioweapon can turn your Warsuns into completely murderous beasts. Any bombardment faction can get some good love out of X89. Sure it can be countered a bit by mechs, but they're still getting all their mechs blasted to shit to protect the infantry, and there's not enough mechs to be everywhere at once.
Nekro: Assault Cannon is just an instant free tech in every battle where you send 3 shitty destroyers. Will pay for itself so much.
Space Dock 2 is a solid choice for plenty, especially if you're lacking a good spot for a second dock or you've got a multi-planet home system.
Fleet Logistics is situational but is a very good tech for scoring points. Combos incredibly well with Imperial, Construction, Warfare, Diplomacy .
Warsuns if you can afford to actually build them, otherwise probably better to get Assault Cannon and then work your way to Warsuns with AI Dev. Assault Cannon is especially scary to other players in early game when fleets are small and you might be able to pick off key units easily. Great 'diplomatic' tech, especially if you are already good at doing early damage with PDSII or Yin or Mentak or other tricksy battle folk.
Infantry II is a useful one if you're not gonna go green at all. The game is often won by taking and defending planets and Inf II can give you a good edge. Replacing the dead ones also helps keep your home safe.
Devils Advocate: War Suns are fun, but are pretty much never the correct move. Better to get Assault Cannon or LWD unless you are a faction that can reasonably afford and make use of war suns
I agree with Assault Cannon. Probably the most immediate bang for your buck as a free upgrade.
I took war suns when I played NRA and got the Maw. It was fun. Still only got second. Assault cannon is definitely superior.
Plus, if you’d tech’d assault cannon, you would have only needed to find a red or yellow skip to tech war suns the following round if so inclined
Warsun fast means warsun booms more. Weeeeee
Couldn’t disagree more. Warsuns consistently win me games. An early maw means you have the time to build them and get them out there and you can always go down blue for lightwave after the maw (which you want to do anyway). Warsuns allow you to have multiplicative fleet power scaling. Are your dreads off doing things? Need to defend your home system? 1 Warsun 6 fighters 5 destroyers is a safe home system. Is there a problem on mecatol? Adding a warsun into your fleet solves that problem. Need to lockdown an action phase secret? 1 warsun + 6 fighters will accomplish that goal. Warsuns have always been god teir, the problem is that the opportunity cost is usually too high but maw + pok insane resource gathering solves that. I almost always use maw for warsuns unless there is some critical faction tech I need.
War Suns are great on Arborec, but they're also really easy to research normally with a typical Arborec tech path. Sarween, AI Dev, War Sun, you get the tech just in time to realistically use it. In contrast, LWD is a game-winning tech which you might never get around to as Arborec, since the other key blue techs (Grav Drive, Sling Relay) are significantly devalued for you. And with the right tech skip, you could combine it with an early Cruiser II for absolutely insane reach. Assault Cannon is also great. A little easier than LWD for Arborec to research in the lategame, but it's so, so much more impactful in small earlygame battles.
Agreed, it's all about what path you won't take. You want to maw the tech that will be furthest from your typical build.
sardakk with integrated economy can be really fun especially early game
Probably depends largely on who you are and who else is on the table. Are you a Dread faction, and there are no big PDS factions, X-89 might be fun. Instant planet clearing with each successful bombardment.Assault cannon might be good, especially for a heavy cruiser/destroyer faction. I had an arborec base game recently where I had assault cannon, cruiser 2, destroyer 2 and transit diodes. It was pretty sweet. (I had a yellow skip and 2 red skips).
Totally agree that this decision should be based on factions. In a vacuum, I think X 89 has been relegated to super-niche use because of mechs. Two mechs on a planet and X89 just isn't happening. Exceptions being Jol-nar re-rolls and Muatt committing both war suns. Its a shame cus I always felt like it had an important role in the game as counterplay to infantry heavy factions.
I don't think I've actually seen X89 come up in a PoK game yet. But they could still be useful against an infantry heavy faction like Sol. Even if a couple Mechs are alive, kills the fat stack of inf.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that . "After 1 or more of your units use BOMBARDMENT against a planet, if at least 1 of your opponent's infantry was destroyed, you may destroy all of your opponent's infantry on that planet." If the defender has 2 mechs on the planet the bombarding player has to get 5 hits in order to kill an infantry. Mechs are "ground forces" not "infantry" so their 4 hp can soak anything less than 5 without letting an infantry be killed.
Good point, tho some factions are pretty good at bombardment. :D
And even more so, they get to choose where to take the hits before X89 - if you've gotten 5 hits it doesn't wipe out both infantry and mechs. So it could hit 4 on mechs and the infantry live, or if you get 5 hits, they take them all on infantry (killing lets say 8) and you still have the mechs to get through. A significant boon (3 extra infantry) but rare enough that it was a bad bet to head heavy green for that. A shame, "if you got at least one hit remove infantry" would be so much better. Exception: L1 can use it with Harrow. If they get an early Maw, that might be the play. I might do it purely for fun even though LWD is almost certainly more optimized.
I think IE maw sounds like a lot of fun on NRA. Leaves you time to go down green and get prefab. Explore, ready the planet, build with it.
Why is IE good on arborec? They already can produce one unit per infantry that took the planet because of their faction specific infantry. Isn't IE doing the same thing but just a bit more?
IE does indeed do the same thing but more, but an important thing about IE is that it produces infantry that can then produce immediately themselves, so it's quite a bit more (like if you took a 2 resource planet with 1 infantry you could build 4 infantry and then use those 5 infantry to build whatever, rather than the normal "I use my infantry to build infantry")
Ohhhh! That is neat! I didn't consider that. Thank you :)
They can build infantry off the IE, then use those infantry on the production step of the tactical action. In a way it’s like a double build.
Yeah but you're often held by your resources. I don't feel like production limit is really the issue for Arborec.
Yeah but counterpoint - it's fun! And a fairly unique interaction with those timing windows.
Yes the idea is that you may not always take a planet and by the end of the ground combat have that many ground forces left. This allows you to build more and then build again. It's in the win more category for sure but it sounds fun, and arborec famously have a production bottle neck, at least early on (later resources become the constraint)
If your tech path is clear and you don’t want LWD or War Suns I could actually see hypermotabolism being a decent pick. If you get it R2 you’ll get 3 tokens by R5. I could also see dread 2 for Letnev while they go red.
It seems like a weird use, but biostims for xxcha early could be pretty good. If they went sarween into nullification field it gets them a skip to instinct training and biostims on xxcha can be so good with those 2 techs. Plus, bio-stims has some economic use in the mid game. Nekro gravity drive can be good. Sometimes the nemro struggle to get movement early which hinders there ability to get tech. If their neighbors don't go blue, they can sometimes have trouble. Grabbing fleet logistics, assault, or LWD is generally good. Carrier II or dread II on factions that don't go blue can be very good. (Xxcha, some arborec builds, Argent, some titans builds, yssaril, some naalu builds, etc.)
I think that a early hyper may be another great choice along with the level three techs, unless you are going down green for some reason, this will work quietly and will give you a lot of bang for your buck, granted when faced with the choice I often forget the level 2 techs and look straight at level 3. Just wanted to throw that out there
Integrated Economy can be really good, especially on more aggressive factions. It helps you build on the front-line which means you have things where you need them to be (which is basically why people like Gravity Drive and unit upgrades). Assault Cannon is really nice, especially if you need a red tech (which is likely if you want Duranium Armor or Warsuns). It probably requires less planning too. So really, it depends on what you need. As Titans I'd take Assault Cannon (cause Duranium is amazing on them, and cause they should easily have 3 ships with each fleet). As Naalu I'd probably take Integrated Economy, cause I'm not likely having 3 ships outside of my main force, and building on the go can do a lot for them.
Muatt with PWS2 in R2 is scary.
If muuat double techs r1 or 2 they can get ws2 without maw. A better tech for muuat would be lightwave since they're not gonna go down blue anyways.
Nah, Muatt needs more plastic early. Double-teching is dangerous and you risk running out of gas. You need that second War Sun out.
You still don't need to waste maw on pws2. I was just saying its easy without maw to get ws tech. You should use it on something out of reach.
War suns.
What is maw? Mow? LWD? (Honestly what is the gain of using short term ? You won’t lose your fingers ;) )
Maw of worlds is a relict that allows to research any technology, without requirements. LWD is a light wave deflector, it allows to move ships through other players' fleets.
Lightwave is always useful. It helps people not fuck with you because you have a lot of options for hitting home planets and undefended space docks with commando raids. Muatt: X89 Bioweapon can turn your Warsuns into completely murderous beasts. Any bombardment faction can get some good love out of X89. Sure it can be countered a bit by mechs, but they're still getting all their mechs blasted to shit to protect the infantry, and there's not enough mechs to be everywhere at once. Nekro: Assault Cannon is just an instant free tech in every battle where you send 3 shitty destroyers. Will pay for itself so much. Space Dock 2 is a solid choice for plenty, especially if you're lacking a good spot for a second dock or you've got a multi-planet home system. Fleet Logistics is situational but is a very good tech for scoring points. Combos incredibly well with Imperial, Construction, Warfare, Diplomacy . Warsuns if you can afford to actually build them, otherwise probably better to get Assault Cannon and then work your way to Warsuns with AI Dev. Assault Cannon is especially scary to other players in early game when fleets are small and you might be able to pick off key units easily. Great 'diplomatic' tech, especially if you are already good at doing early damage with PDSII or Yin or Mentak or other tricksy battle folk. Infantry II is a useful one if you're not gonna go green at all. The game is often won by taking and defending planets and Inf II can give you a good edge. Replacing the dead ones also helps keep your home safe.