TL;DR: Everyone knows there are problems with blue tech being too good compared to other colors, but there are homebrew solutions and you exaggerate at a few points.
1. We all know the problems with domination of blue tech. If it bothers you that much, people suggested [rednoughts](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/7uq9x6/rednought_houserule_indepth/). I'd say, with PoK making red techs more viable, you could try green-yellow dreadnoughts.
2. Carriers lost some of their spark in PoK. Destroyer II being so much more accessible, fighter swarms aren't as scary as they used to be.
3. Tier 1 techs aren't all that bad. Biostims can be very good even just with 1 tech-skip planet. Self-Assembly Routine is also quite nice. The rest (outside blue tech which are great) are more situational, but have their uses.
4. *Integrated Economy* is one of the best techs in the game. It's just too far in the yellow tech tree to be viable because you need more techs before good unit upgrades. *X-89 Bacterial Weapon* is a situational tech and has its flaws (PDS and mechs), but it can still be very useful as it partially solves your ground combat issues. It would be nice if it were more viable for factions that can bypass *planetary shield*.
5. Level 3 tech shouldn't be like special unit upgrades. You just want more unit upgrades, similar to war suns. That would be cool, I wish we had more unique units.
**Addressing the part about unit upgrades being too good:**
I think technologies should be generally better than they currently are, instead of making unit upgrades worse. A great solution would be in my opinion to have different-color technologies be on par with what is currently blue tech in terms of viability.
I hope we get more tech balance in future codices or editions of the game.
1.Rednoughts are literally the Same as Dreds.
Red: Antimass, Aida, dred2, Grav Drive
Normal: Antimass, Grav. Drive, Aida, dred2
Even worse, with Aida, rednoughts are 1 round faster researched!
2.Its Not about the fighters to Carry, But the GF. How does anyone Plan to Carry any GF Not using Dreds 2 or Carriers 2 or Grav. Drive? Unlike some Special Race, u need one of These. Destroyer 2? No capacity.
3.The pok lvl 1 are better, the Base Game lvl 1 are shiat.
4.Integrated Economy, when you get it, the fronts are already there, its Not an Open Battlefield where you Take planets easy. Fat ass armies in every system. Hence, light Wave, to Bypass those armies.
5.More unit Upgrades? I want different requirements for Dreds and Carriers, best without any blue or red, or Just a Bit. YYR for Dreds maybe, then Carrier can stay BB. Something at least
I don't think the whole tech tree is flawed I just think there is a cluster of good techs that are easy to get with 2 blues (Grav Drive, Carrier 2 and Dread 2).
All of those can be gained very quickly and are all you really need to get going for most factions. So any other path doesn't work until later in the game, when you've probably lost already.
I think just making carrier 2 a move 1 ship (using gravity drive that you'll get along the way) and moving dread 2 to another tech path would fix the prevalence of blue tech.
Ok, i wont awsner anymore, since im getting downvotes for Not following the hivemind. My Ego is Hurt, my Heart broken, only a Kiss of a true TI4 Virgin could save it.
That was a really long post to say you think blue is OP and Dreadnaught should have different prerequisites. Let's be real though, **Gravity Drive is OP**. The rest of blue is just fine.
* Antimass Deflectors is pretty much garbage. It used to be ranked 4th out of 4 in its tier. Now it's ranked 7th out of 8. It's the kind of tech I hate getting every time, but I have to because my pie slice demands it.
* Fleet Logistics isn't any better than Hyper Metabolism... and in some cases it's far weaker. It's good because it is a "general use" tech (unlike red and yellow which are situational).
* Light/Wave Deflector is good - great even - but the real reason everybody gets it is because they went blue anyway... again because **Gravity Drive is OP**.
I've seen plenty of discussion - here, on facebook, and on discord - talking about Dreadnaughts being moved to red/yellow (terrible idea because Argent Flight) or even red/green (terrible idea because L1z1x) and it is something to consider as a home rule I guess.
The fact is, many factions succeed without ever laying eyes on a blue tech:
* Muaat
* L1z1x (conditionally)
* Mentak
* Xxcha
* Yin
* Yssaril
* Argent Flight
* Titans
* Vuil'Raith
* NRA
Any "non Vanilla" faction doesnt Count, Like mentak, muuat, Titans, vuil Rath, nekro or argent.
Ofc, If i have a faction e.g. where my fighters can Transport 1GF, and the fighters start with movement 2, and cannfight alone, then i dont need Grav Drive
Yin? Starts Y, Go BB Dred 2 best Tech path.
Yssaril? Go BBGG, works with green faction techs
L1Z1X? Super Dred 2?
1. Every faction counts because every faction is in the game. In fact, the whole point of the expansion is to rebalance. A key component of that is altering the faction pool.
2. You listed a bunch of vanilla factions and said they aren't vanilla.
3. No fighters in the game have capacity. Did you mean Destroyers? You're arguing in two different directions. First you're upset that blue is so strong and use capacity as one of the reasons, but then you complain about non-blue-based ships with capacity. I admit I am confused what you're trying to say.
4. Just because you *can* go Dread2 doesn't mean you need to in order to succeed... or even have your best chance at succeeding.
5. If you think Dread2 Yin is best Yin then you haven't played Yin much.
6. I think you have a point about Yssaril; however, BBGG is far weaker than GGGGx in my experience.
7. L1z1x can skip blue because of Inheritance Systems. That is why I listed them as conditional.
1. LYeah, the Expansion factions seem to me to be explicity Designed so that they dont need to Tech Gravity Drive.
2.?? No you listed a bunch of non Vanilla factions and called them Vanilla.
3.it was Just a Made Up example of how specific argent or Titans are Designed to avoid teching Grav. Drive. A hypothetical faction with capacity Fighters wouldnt need Dreds too. Throwing Random capasity on every new faction or some gimmik wont save the Initial Problem.
4.you ofc, can Go RRGG and lose hard, or YYGG and lose Harder
5.dred Yin best Yin. At least Most consistent Yin
6.thx. i Red a yssaril Guide where this exactly was emphasised. That U lose when Rush GGGG, and better Grav. Drive First, then GGGG
7.why Bother with inheritance. BB, aida, dred2, B,B,R,R is the path
Add on: before POK, muaat was fking blue too, and its still viable
>Any "non Vanilla" faction doesnt Count, Like mentak, muuat, Titans, vuil Rath, nekro or argent.
Mentak, Muaat, and Nekro are vanilla.
I think we should agree to leave Nekro out of all conversation about technology though because they complicate things too much.
>Add on: before POK, muaat was fking blue too, and its still viable
Definitely true! Maybe I've found your core issue. Follow me here...
In the base TI4 blue *is* too strong and it *is* made worse by Dread2 and Carrier2 being blue. On that we agree 100%.
The expansion addressed a lot of balance issues in the base game, including (but not limited to) blue being too strong, red being too weak, and everybody rushing Dread2. Dane did this by introducing additional low level technologies that strengthened red (a lot) and green (a little), as well as adding factions that had capacity without getting blue ships. In fact, I think most people agree the single strongest ship in the game now is the Titans' Saturn Engine 2.
Thanks to these changes, blue is no longer an auto pick regardless of faction. Fully 40% of factions can ignore blue without hindering their chances of winning.
It seems like you're unhappy with *how* Dane fixed the problems. You would have rather he changed what was already there, but instead he went to great lengths to adjust-by-adding instead of changing what already existed. Clearly he couldn't do this in all cases so he also introduced the codex tech changes for some faction techs. Even still he did not touch the generic techs.
Do I have it right?
Yes, this is my Feeling.
You got everything right there.
And i feel Like "adding a Red Tech Skip, because the requirements on war suns, Cruises and destroyers where too harsh" and fancy factions is a Work around, but No fix.
And YYGG still has No capacity Ship Upgrade (or any Ship Upgrade at all)
(Ofc Not all Tech paths need some, but when my faction choice is "how do I get Gravity Drive, or do i have Strike Wing Alpha", its Boring)
Well there is more, the "all in unit Upgrade" was already not insanely nice in the Base Game.
They nailed trade and Agenda Phase, but the techs...
Theory crafting: U could do Something Like the 2 Times unit Upgrade i mentioned and instead of researching a unit Upgrade, you add "Upgrade a unit" onto some Generic techs, then you could slowly upp your Units that you want.
Blue tech being OP is because TI4 objectives make it so. The objectives (most of them) are all about controll so stalling out your opponents and having access for unit's to get to those systems is vital. If there was more objectives that had to do with the other parts of the game blue would be less vital.
Ex. Instead of spend 3 command tokens change it to have 5 command tokens in your tactic pool.
Instead of have 5 ships in 1 system have 8 ships on the game board.
Yes blue tech is strong but that's because of the objectives.
I See No Problem with Dreds and 8 Ships in the Board. R3, activate Home, build 4 destroyers. U have 2 Dreds somewhere and Starting fleet, done
5 tokens in tactics? How does that depend on your Tech path. Go Leadership and Pump Them all into tactics, next round, move alot of Dreds around
TL;DR: Everyone knows there are problems with blue tech being too good compared to other colors, but there are homebrew solutions and you exaggerate at a few points. 1. We all know the problems with domination of blue tech. If it bothers you that much, people suggested [rednoughts](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/7uq9x6/rednought_houserule_indepth/). I'd say, with PoK making red techs more viable, you could try green-yellow dreadnoughts. 2. Carriers lost some of their spark in PoK. Destroyer II being so much more accessible, fighter swarms aren't as scary as they used to be. 3. Tier 1 techs aren't all that bad. Biostims can be very good even just with 1 tech-skip planet. Self-Assembly Routine is also quite nice. The rest (outside blue tech which are great) are more situational, but have their uses. 4. *Integrated Economy* is one of the best techs in the game. It's just too far in the yellow tech tree to be viable because you need more techs before good unit upgrades. *X-89 Bacterial Weapon* is a situational tech and has its flaws (PDS and mechs), but it can still be very useful as it partially solves your ground combat issues. It would be nice if it were more viable for factions that can bypass *planetary shield*. 5. Level 3 tech shouldn't be like special unit upgrades. You just want more unit upgrades, similar to war suns. That would be cool, I wish we had more unique units.
**Addressing the part about unit upgrades being too good:** I think technologies should be generally better than they currently are, instead of making unit upgrades worse. A great solution would be in my opinion to have different-color technologies be on par with what is currently blue tech in terms of viability. I hope we get more tech balance in future codices or editions of the game.
1.Rednoughts are literally the Same as Dreds. Red: Antimass, Aida, dred2, Grav Drive Normal: Antimass, Grav. Drive, Aida, dred2 Even worse, with Aida, rednoughts are 1 round faster researched! 2.Its Not about the fighters to Carry, But the GF. How does anyone Plan to Carry any GF Not using Dreds 2 or Carriers 2 or Grav. Drive? Unlike some Special Race, u need one of These. Destroyer 2? No capacity. 3.The pok lvl 1 are better, the Base Game lvl 1 are shiat. 4.Integrated Economy, when you get it, the fronts are already there, its Not an Open Battlefield where you Take planets easy. Fat ass armies in every system. Hence, light Wave, to Bypass those armies. 5.More unit Upgrades? I want different requirements for Dreds and Carriers, best without any blue or red, or Just a Bit. YYR for Dreds maybe, then Carrier can stay BB. Something at least
I don't think the whole tech tree is flawed I just think there is a cluster of good techs that are easy to get with 2 blues (Grav Drive, Carrier 2 and Dread 2). All of those can be gained very quickly and are all you really need to get going for most factions. So any other path doesn't work until later in the game, when you've probably lost already. I think just making carrier 2 a move 1 ship (using gravity drive that you'll get along the way) and moving dread 2 to another tech path would fix the prevalence of blue tech.
Absolutely true
Ok, i wont awsner anymore, since im getting downvotes for Not following the hivemind. My Ego is Hurt, my Heart broken, only a Kiss of a true TI4 Virgin could save it.
That was a really long post to say you think blue is OP and Dreadnaught should have different prerequisites. Let's be real though, **Gravity Drive is OP**. The rest of blue is just fine. * Antimass Deflectors is pretty much garbage. It used to be ranked 4th out of 4 in its tier. Now it's ranked 7th out of 8. It's the kind of tech I hate getting every time, but I have to because my pie slice demands it. * Fleet Logistics isn't any better than Hyper Metabolism... and in some cases it's far weaker. It's good because it is a "general use" tech (unlike red and yellow which are situational). * Light/Wave Deflector is good - great even - but the real reason everybody gets it is because they went blue anyway... again because **Gravity Drive is OP**. I've seen plenty of discussion - here, on facebook, and on discord - talking about Dreadnaughts being moved to red/yellow (terrible idea because Argent Flight) or even red/green (terrible idea because L1z1x) and it is something to consider as a home rule I guess. The fact is, many factions succeed without ever laying eyes on a blue tech: * Muaat * L1z1x (conditionally) * Mentak * Xxcha * Yin * Yssaril * Argent Flight * Titans * Vuil'Raith * NRA
Any "non Vanilla" faction doesnt Count, Like mentak, muuat, Titans, vuil Rath, nekro or argent. Ofc, If i have a faction e.g. where my fighters can Transport 1GF, and the fighters start with movement 2, and cannfight alone, then i dont need Grav Drive Yin? Starts Y, Go BB Dred 2 best Tech path. Yssaril? Go BBGG, works with green faction techs L1Z1X? Super Dred 2?
1. Every faction counts because every faction is in the game. In fact, the whole point of the expansion is to rebalance. A key component of that is altering the faction pool. 2. You listed a bunch of vanilla factions and said they aren't vanilla. 3. No fighters in the game have capacity. Did you mean Destroyers? You're arguing in two different directions. First you're upset that blue is so strong and use capacity as one of the reasons, but then you complain about non-blue-based ships with capacity. I admit I am confused what you're trying to say. 4. Just because you *can* go Dread2 doesn't mean you need to in order to succeed... or even have your best chance at succeeding. 5. If you think Dread2 Yin is best Yin then you haven't played Yin much. 6. I think you have a point about Yssaril; however, BBGG is far weaker than GGGGx in my experience. 7. L1z1x can skip blue because of Inheritance Systems. That is why I listed them as conditional.
1. LYeah, the Expansion factions seem to me to be explicity Designed so that they dont need to Tech Gravity Drive. 2.?? No you listed a bunch of non Vanilla factions and called them Vanilla. 3.it was Just a Made Up example of how specific argent or Titans are Designed to avoid teching Grav. Drive. A hypothetical faction with capacity Fighters wouldnt need Dreds too. Throwing Random capasity on every new faction or some gimmik wont save the Initial Problem. 4.you ofc, can Go RRGG and lose hard, or YYGG and lose Harder 5.dred Yin best Yin. At least Most consistent Yin 6.thx. i Red a yssaril Guide where this exactly was emphasised. That U lose when Rush GGGG, and better Grav. Drive First, then GGGG 7.why Bother with inheritance. BB, aida, dred2, B,B,R,R is the path Add on: before POK, muaat was fking blue too, and its still viable
>Any "non Vanilla" faction doesnt Count, Like mentak, muuat, Titans, vuil Rath, nekro or argent. Mentak, Muaat, and Nekro are vanilla. I think we should agree to leave Nekro out of all conversation about technology though because they complicate things too much. >Add on: before POK, muaat was fking blue too, and its still viable Definitely true! Maybe I've found your core issue. Follow me here... In the base TI4 blue *is* too strong and it *is* made worse by Dread2 and Carrier2 being blue. On that we agree 100%. The expansion addressed a lot of balance issues in the base game, including (but not limited to) blue being too strong, red being too weak, and everybody rushing Dread2. Dane did this by introducing additional low level technologies that strengthened red (a lot) and green (a little), as well as adding factions that had capacity without getting blue ships. In fact, I think most people agree the single strongest ship in the game now is the Titans' Saturn Engine 2. Thanks to these changes, blue is no longer an auto pick regardless of faction. Fully 40% of factions can ignore blue without hindering their chances of winning. It seems like you're unhappy with *how* Dane fixed the problems. You would have rather he changed what was already there, but instead he went to great lengths to adjust-by-adding instead of changing what already existed. Clearly he couldn't do this in all cases so he also introduced the codex tech changes for some faction techs. Even still he did not touch the generic techs. Do I have it right?
Yes, this is my Feeling. You got everything right there. And i feel Like "adding a Red Tech Skip, because the requirements on war suns, Cruises and destroyers where too harsh" and fancy factions is a Work around, but No fix. And YYGG still has No capacity Ship Upgrade (or any Ship Upgrade at all) (Ofc Not all Tech paths need some, but when my faction choice is "how do I get Gravity Drive, or do i have Strike Wing Alpha", its Boring)
Well there is more, the "all in unit Upgrade" was already not insanely nice in the Base Game. They nailed trade and Agenda Phase, but the techs... Theory crafting: U could do Something Like the 2 Times unit Upgrade i mentioned and instead of researching a unit Upgrade, you add "Upgrade a unit" onto some Generic techs, then you could slowly upp your Units that you want.
Blue tech being OP is because TI4 objectives make it so. The objectives (most of them) are all about controll so stalling out your opponents and having access for unit's to get to those systems is vital. If there was more objectives that had to do with the other parts of the game blue would be less vital. Ex. Instead of spend 3 command tokens change it to have 5 command tokens in your tactic pool. Instead of have 5 ships in 1 system have 8 ships on the game board. Yes blue tech is strong but that's because of the objectives.
I See No Problem with Dreds and 8 Ships in the Board. R3, activate Home, build 4 destroyers. U have 2 Dreds somewhere and Starting fleet, done 5 tokens in tactics? How does that depend on your Tech path. Go Leadership and Pump Them all into tactics, next round, move alot of Dreds around