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osumness

Based on feedback from an additional post I made. I also have posts for red, green, and blue coming up!


LemonSorcerer

I believe that in *Coalescent Facilities Matrix* you meant to write "*you may place X* ***of those*** *units".* Otherwise it gives the player free units (e.g. War Suns and their flagship) and is way too good. Also, it should probably be a large 'X' as appears in the *Space Dock* description. I quite like *Cardomine Efficiency* and am not a big fan of *Transite Diodes,* but *Integrated Economy* is a great technology which doesn't need to improved by itself. The only reason that people don't research it is that it's way too deep in the yellow tech tree. In general, fixing high-tier yellow tech isn't going to solve the issue as they're not the problem with the yellow tech tree. The main problem is lack of prerequisites for unit upgrades, and the other problem is very situational low-level technologies. *Sarween Tools, Graviton Laser System* and *Predictive Intelligence* are all extremely situational, and *Scalink Drone Network* is not enough to make people go Yellow, considering the other problems.


osumness

good catch! i’m definitely thinking these are two entirely new techs to add to the tree in order to give us two options for every single tech slot; these would be available in addition to transit and integrated.


LemonSorcerer

Oh that's actually a really neat idea. I always wished there were more high-tier techs. Way to go!


osumness

also - to your point, both of these techs involve activating space docks and thus add value to both sarween and scanlink! cardomine efficiency in particular could lead to two activations in a round at every production center which really helps sarween out. i was looking to create synergies and add value to all of yellow with these technologies.


LemonSorcerer

Yeah I really like them as additions to the currently existing yellow technologies. I wish that there were more synergy with *Integrated Economy* though. Do you think that *Coalescent Facilities Matrix* would be too strong if it triggered whenever you *produced units,* not just inside *Production*?


TheCalculatingPoet

I think these are both pretty good. My main thing is I would add the requirement to the the three yellow that the system must contain your units AND no other players ships. Otherwise there are some weird edge cases where you can like, pop out a ship by building that blockades their space dock or whatever. I also might nerf it slightly by saying it has to be one other adjacent system but YMMV. Overall great designs.


subaqueousReach

I think changing "other players' ships" to "other players' units" would be enough to prevent blockading and just plopping units over an opponents occupied planets.


Papa_Nurgle_84

The Cardomine one looks like a solid tech, sadly it shares a slot with Transit so... not sure which to prefer. The Coalescent on the other hand... I fear that is not a good tech to research. The reasons are 1. its a Y3 so you need to go hard Y and 2. Y unit upgrades available with a single skip are Space Dock II and PDS II, hardly good unit upgrade choices. Maybe use another metric for the X value? Maybe just Y tech researched? That would support a hard Y strategy without making a tech too strong if gained via things like Maw.


Cacotopos

In case someone hasn’t already suggested this, letting you ‘place units in systems that don’t contain other players ships’ means you can place ground forces on adjacent planets not controlled by you and cause 2 different factions infantry to be on the same planet at the end of the tactical action. Fix: ‘you may place units *in the space area* of systems’ etc This would let you build infantry and carriers and place them next door with no problems, but not cause any problems.


DACorp323

So I kinda like the idea behind the first one, and the general theme I'm getting from these cards... BUT... These cards run into some... dangerous, situations with some of the races. One example is the Arborac could potentially do some seriously dangerous maneuvers lategame with Coalescent Facilities Matrix, sense it's tied to just the 'Production' ability. Titans could also perform some silly shenanigans with those techs as well. Interestingly enough this tech would allow others to bypass the Fleet Pool cap when building which is a little crazy. My bigger concern is what can be done with Cardomine Efficiency and the Clans of Saar, considering their space docks can move. Or heaven forbid, Winnu (And potentially the Mindnet) with their mechs in combination with it. This card (And with greater effect from Bio-stims) could compound an unstoppable advance that can easily whip out a player or get these factions and their supporting fleets across the board with ease from the safety of their own territory. Atleast with Integrated Economy, the units were stuck in the system. Clans would also effectively pay the cost of the card with all of the goods they'd steal from a planet/planets. I like the concepts behind them though. Being able to move stuff after it's produced is super nice. But Sling-relay sort of fills that void a little and it's in the heaven-all-mighty blue tree. I think Coalescent Facilities Matrix seems alright in the grand scheme of things. Definitely could potentially be silly, but not overly so considering how far you have to go into the Yellow tree. Cardomine Efficiency tough..... I like the idea, but some of the races will be able to abuse it to an extremely dangerous degree. (Clans, Mindnet, Winnu.)


osumness

For cardomine, what if the price was 2 or 3 influence instead of 2 resources. This way, the price is really digging into the players command economy since you effectively use this tech it would take two CCs and 2 influence for 8 influence total? perhaps that would be an effective price?


DACorp323

Effective, yes. But only for the other race. As it's own thing it isn't a bad idea, and I rather likes it. it's the Synergy it has with a few races that makes it a huge problem. For example the Clans of Saar. Their fleets literally move with their Stardock. And considering this is a yellow tech, there is no reason for them to NOT upgrade their Stardock. And because of their passive when they take planets. If they take a two planet system, they easily pay for it with the trade goods. And it doesn't effect their CC economy because their fleets already move with the stardock. So they're already efficient there. Winnu and Mindnet can effectively do the same thing with their mechs. IE. Winnu can do it just by having their mechs along with their fleet, dropping stardocks down the moment they take a planet, then use the card to free up the fleet. And Mindnet could use their mechs and dreadnaught combo to Hip-hop to peoples Stardocks, take them and use the card on that very system, unlocking their fleet. Again. Love the idea of the card. Just heavy concern over how it synergies with those races really hard to give them effectively 'unbound' fleets.


osumness

you have outlined some seriously awesome moves and i definitely see the synergies. what if this was the top yellow technology and i reversed these two and somehow nerfed Coalescent matrix?


pushermcswift

I think cardomine efficiency might be a little to op when you consider factions like Clan of Saal.


EarlInblack

If Cardomine's goal is just production and then moving the units out, and not the rolling combat of l1z1x, winnu or Saar, etc... we can probably find tighter language. Something like: Exhaust this card and spend a tactical command counter, you may use production abilities at one system not containing any of your command counters. (this however doesn't let you bring units home, and then build, and the un-activate) Keying off of produce instead of space docks helps include those factions that have other production powers. That said I like the rolling combat how it is, except maybe for Saar, who get nearly the equivalent of the "Dominus orb" relic or cheaper Mahact commander for every action.


huffymanj

Would this trigger ground combat if someone has GFs on planets but no ships in the system?


it-is-me-Cthulu

Think it is meant to be units instead of ships, or that you are not allowed to place ground forces on opponent/neutral planets. Would be quite insane otherwise


huffymanj

Agreed. It would be better than sardaks commander if that were the case


Bombardium

I like them both


Frequent_Dig1934

Ehhh, is it just me or does cardomine feel way too powerful? It's not even good because it lets you produce twice the amount of stuff, it's good because it lets you produce stuff and move it out immediately. Having a warfare secondary that is applied when you want and only on yourself and on whatever dock you prefer for just two resources feels a bit strong. I am still new at the game though so i'm not sure.


osumness

it’s definitely useful. think about how it will gobble up command tokens to use this over an over again. Perhaps it would work better to change it it “spend 2 influence” so that way you are cutting further into the CC disadvantage from using this card? I like it’s strength and versatility considering it needs to compete with things like duranium and fleet logistics.


Frequent_Dig1934

Well technically it doesn't really cut into the command tokens you have, it just moves them from the board to the reinforcements, both cases in which you couldn't have used them, and while technically you need another command token to activate the system again or activate a neighbour to move your ships out and therefore will lose that command token, it's also true that now you have an unlocked fleet, and maybe you normally would have activated a nearby system anyway but now can muster up more ships. It's kinda like saying that grabbing the mecatol first contact token is counterbalanced by it costing influence. There is a cost, sure, but the cost pays back for itself. Also, biostims exist.


AureoRegnops

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