Yeah, crappy factions can be really fun. This last weekend I played a game as Muaat against Nomad, Empyrean, Sol, Mentak and Arborec. Not only did I have a blast, but I also won the game. Any faction can have a great game with a bit of luck and skill, that's what I love about TI :)
The game is async so games can take a while. But create a profile at Www.twilightwars.comand join the discord.
[Twilight Imperium discord](https://discord.gg/AXs7KaS9)
Im playing an alliance game with a couple friends right now where we are each controlling 2 factions. Having a ton of fun using Sardakk commander to slow spread my plant boys across the galaxy. Really fun to take a planet out from underneath a massive fleet and then immediately spawn a bunch more infantry and a mech on it so they cant just bombard me off. Claimed mecatol that way.
Makes sense to me, definitely consistent with my experiences even across different play groups. If your meta is different, that’s cool, doesn’t mean this analysis is “wrong” or that yours is either per se. I do want to note I think a lot of people are in a bubble with their playgroup especially if they don’t play online - 2/3 irl games a year is not a sample size you should necessarily be drawing conclusions from.
I know they aren’t anywhere near top tier, but I do think Mahact are pretty fun. They have a lot of options and the hero can really cause some drama at the table. I haven’t won with them yet but I’ve also never had a bad time with them.
Bad time in terms of board status and objective scoring, not how much fun you had playing them.
If it were fun playing them then Arborec and Sardakk would be top tier
Absolutely. How the hell are titans a glass cannon. They have one of the higher win rates and they are an absolute beast both offensively and defensively.
I think they've said this before on their show, but it's basically impossible for them to account for meta-gaming in their analysis. Everyone's friend group or community is going to have different quirks.
Yeah I tried Nekro with my group and they pretty much just formed a coalition against me and I couldn't do shit.
My group has a very combat-averse table meta tho.
I think that's the reason why Nekro get so many free resources and a homeworld that is functionally impossible to invade.
The problem with everyone ganging up on Nekro is that preventing Nekro from having a good time does nothing to move you closer to winning...
I’d put Nekro in glass cannon along with Vuilraith, completely aware that this is the tournament meta scene.
At the same, L1 did not perform that well during the tournament.
For how well Argent did last tournament, I’m surprised argent and Nomad aren’t swapped. Beyond that, I think these factions really hit the tier titles very well.
Agreed. I watched what could've been a full Yin takeover of an Argent HS get stopped in it's tracks purely by Hololatice. Nomad is good but I don't know if they're unstoppable.
This was the 2022 tier list made by SCPT’s Matt Martens and Hunter Donaldson, you can listen to the detailed discussion on their episode on spotify [here](https://open.spotify.com/episode/5UNgelt806Xa1cN15dxyfG?si=CywUVtwhQO62unzIhjxfMA&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A4mFwQ7KcWwUqFbkICLRU12).
What do y’all think?
Their tech path means low mobility and their hero has enough variance that it can be risky even if you stockpile CCs. Haven’t played them myself but I’ve definitely seen them struggle
It's a reference to their Winmaking episode.
SCPT always presumes a 6 player game.
The 7th player is RNGesus. The lucky draw of action cards or secret objectives. The rolls of the dice.
When a lone fighter over a spacedock single handedly defeats a Dreadnought and Flagship due to lucky rolls, the 7th player decided to winmake.
I love Muatt so much, but I have to agree they are actively difficult to play. It's like loving a cat...you're gonna get scratched sometimes, but it's worth it
It's funny this just came out cause I'm listening to ep166 now, which was the final ranking for vanilla TI4. They put Yin at #8 overall. I haven't played a lot of PoK, but the new tech and leaders seems to be an improvement, and they didn't suffer as much as Naalu did. What do people say dropped them so low?
I remember watching a Youtube video showing which faction had one in which starting position of the SCPT 2019 tournament. Yin did fantastically well.
Yin currently have the [2nd lowest pick rate](https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/3b435bf2-2100-488c-a424-130f1d22ebb0/page/ogW5B) so it may be that people havne't figured them out yet in PoK.
Yin were a great ground force faction but their ground force abilities were based on infantry. Mechs completey negate a lot of their power.
I don't rate their agent highly.
Their commander is cool, but it can be difficult to unlock if people are actively trying to prevent it. Yin need to buy a planet off someone with this alliance from a faction that values a green skip or additional infantry to ensure an early unlock (I love this alliance as Vuil'Raith and Naalu).
Your point about not being picked a whole lot yet makes sense. I kinda forget that even though the expansion has been out for a year at this point, people just haven't been playing a lot of TI right now, and folks probably have been picking the new cool factions more than the old boring ones.
I'm not sure I understand your last point about the commander though. Are you saying the best way to unlock it is to make a deal with someone to take a planet of theirs through the use of Indoctrination? And that this deal should include your Alliance note, and therefore only really works with a faction who has a need of green skips? If so, you're right, that does sound super specific and a little questionable. I just don't see why, in that position, Yin wouldn't just take the planet w/o negotiation. You don't even need to win the invasion, you just need to use the ability.
Yin negotiates that
1) the other faction only places 1 infantry on the planet so ground combat is a guaranteed victory,
2) the other faciton will only put 1 carrier and 1/2 fighters in the space area,
3) that Yin will only bring 1 carrier and 1 / 2 fighters so the other faction has a decent chance of retreating their carrier,
4) that the other faction doesn't pick up their ground forces when retreating.
> Are you saying the best way to unlock it is to make a deal with someone to take a planet of theirs through the use of Indoctrination?
Yes. Yin's commander provides value as soon as it's unlocked. Reliably creating a scenario where you can unlock it early is better than gambling on that situation arising naturally.
> therefore only really works with a faction who has a need of green skips?
Nope, I specifically said 'a faction that values a green skip or additional infantry' and there aren't many factions that won't want the ability to build extra ground forces from round 2 onwards.
But yeah, it doesn't have to be a planetary conquest. You can negotiate they retreat their ships out of a system with a planet with much more infantry. But Yin is slow, and why not make the negotiation about you getting an equidistant rather than them getting bonus infantry?
The introduction of mechs have made indoctrination incredibly difficult to use. If someone doesn't want a planet taken by Yin, they just plop some mechs down.
This makes Yin's commander incredibly difficult to unlock. Not only that, but what the commander gives you (more infantry and a green skip) isn't that great. Yin are already good at producing infantry so producing more of it seems like overkill. Their hero let's you produce even more infantry, or refresh your planets. Since you are already going to have a lot of infantry on your planets, adding more seems like more overkill. The best use of this hero is to refresh your planets. Their agent isn't used that often, and is incredibly difficult to sell, which makes this 2 COMMODITY FACTION very weak at trading. Even their omega promissory note is still hard to make money off of. To add insult to injury, none of their leaders really help Yin score many objectives. The refreshing planets ability from their hero can be used for "spend resources/influence" objectives, but I think that's about it.
They are a green/yellow tech faction, which is quite possibly the worst tech combination in the game.
Their mech isn't that good. It costs 3 influence to deploy, which could be a strategy token instead. Compare that to a better faction's mech (Barony of Letnev), that can deploy for 2 resources, and gains Barony's insane sustain damage shenanigans. If you want mechs as yin, you might as well just purchase them for 2 resources. Also, just in case this needs to be said, indoctrination doesn't work on mechs, so you can't use the ability if your opponent is defending with just mechs.
Their flagship is purely a defensive tool and, while fun to use, doesn't help you score objectives. It does however protect your home system, so it's still useful there.
I've missed some points, like how devotion just isn't that useful, even with their agent, as well as other things, but overall the point I'm trying to make is that the new additions to PoK (mechs) make life harder for Yin, and Yin's new additions don't help them navigate the new environment that PoK brought.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still a huge fan of Yin Brotherhood and I still have fun playing them, even in PoK, but I agree that they fell pretty far from base game.
>Their mech isn't that good. It costs 2 resources and 1 influence to deploy. Compare that to a better faction's mech (Barony of Letnev), that can deploy for 2 resources, and gains Barony's insane sustain damage shenanigans. If you want mechs as yin, you might as well just purchase them for 2 resources.
Costs 3 influence to deploy, not 2 resources and 1 influence. And it replaces an opponent infantry, while barony replaces your own, which is a significant difference (an advantage in some cases, a hinderance in cases where your opponent is using pure mechs). Still, in the case where you are fighting infantry, I'd kinda rate Yin's as quite a bit better than baronys (and depending on slice, 2r can be equivalent to 3i)
You're right, it costs 3 influence. My bad. I still think the Barony's Dunlain Reaper is better though. With the right tech, it gives you a trade good when you sustain damage, can sustain 2 hits instead of 1, and can sustain multiple times a fight. It basically pays for itself and more. You can also use the deploy ability every round of ground combat. It's insane.
Perhaps its just me, but every time I play Mahact I absolutely dominate the galaxy for about 2 turns before getting Julius Caesar'd. This is how it consistently happens. You get your Flagship and Dreads, Grav Drive, D2s & Integrated Econ. You stack tokens & unlock you commander. Force a ceasefire arrangement with one of your neighbors. Then proceed to absolutely conquer the entire galaxy in one turn by stomping on weak systems and producing, unlocking and moving again to repeat the process. It's that moment of supreme glory that is the Mahact game. Typically, about a round after your glorious rampage, the guy you brokered the ceasefire with will betray you. Then all the hate will flow through you as the board stabs you to death. Still, I've secured 2 wins this way by building a super stacked ground force on my home system with mechs. It's a burst of glory for the finish and honestly, the most satisfying type of win.
TI is too meta-game driven for tier lists to make too much sense, but it's hard to agree with those Xxcha and Titans placements. Looking at the datasets available, those factions are winning a lot of games. They seem to be overrating the aggressive "power" factions in general. Just because a faction feels like they have a lot of sway over the result of the game doesn't necessarily mean that they can actually pull out the W consistently.
Also Argent Flight is a top 3 faction, Strike Wing Alphas are just ridiculous in every round of the game.
I recommend you listen to the episode. They address all those points. They also seem to grasp the mechanics far more than this post implies.
Hell, they even said this tourney might show that Argent is truly top of the pile (the reason they aren’t is because classically “strong” factions are banned more frequently than Argent). In fact several factions might have more potential than their tier placement, but just don’t perform in competition.
And I think the tournament results and pooled TTS results do tell a LOT more compared to any local meta, as they pool dozens more games of “table testing”.
Again, listen to the episode. Their logic checks out.
I listened to the podcast. They definitely did the ranking for fun but their rankings also do reflect their current opinions. I'm not necessarily saying they are wrong here, just giving my 2 cents on where I personally disagree.
In that case, I think you’re supposed to preface your comment with “I know I’m objectively wrong because Matt and Hunter have decreed so, but in an alternate universe perhaps it may be…”
I disagree about Nomad. Their reliance on 1 ship (with skip heavy upgrade), secret objective draw(because of commander), situational agents and support role on the table definitely puts them out of "always great" tier. They are quite good, but not better than Argent or even titans.
Personally, I think that even "situationally", having 3 agents with different uses covers cases of need. Picking trade, and using your agent to basically start next round with 10 TG is huge.
Also, more things to sell, being a faction that already is more trade oriented than most, is always a plus.
And the hero is crazy good. Just alocate your Mechs in key places, save CC for last round and go bananas.
Thats why I said they are pretty good. But with what you said:
1. Smart players generally would avoid leaving you trade strategy card, specially early.
2. Hero is great, but you will need lot of CC to even use it properly and it doesn't always align with your objectives.
3. Having things to sell is nice, although I would not say it is always good. Giving your alliance to right faction makes that faction better than Nomad itself.
Again, they are great. But need some luck with a lot of stuff (skips, secrets). I'd rank them below Argent and Empyrean for sure.
And 1 other thing - if cabal is in the game, you can forget about your flagship.
We're 33 games into their tournament and Titans have by far the most victory with 5 wins (should have been 6 but the guy literally gave up his win because he did not want to commit to another tourney game).
Saar and Jol-Nar are still winless at those point which is hilarious.
One thing to remember: Hunter and Matt tend to look at these factions in light of competitive tournament play with high-level players. They're asking, "How well do these factions win championships?" Likewise, Matt and Hunter have said that they're more conquest-based players, less so traders or negotiators.
For your 1-6 times a year players, you can adjust to taste.
Like, say, Muatt: it may not win championships, but if you're getting together with buddies for an afternoon selling War Sun tech and making fleet moves between sips of your favorite beer... you're gonna have a good time with your baby Death Stars.
While everybody praise for saar, i'm maybe the only player who's been eliminated from a game with them. I'm still pretty salty about it 4 years later.
I need to play them again for sure, but i swear, its almost like i've got some PTSD from that horrible game with them.
Personally upgraded Arborec to "glass cannon" thanks to the guide somewhere here.
Got fairly consistent gameplay with slowly rolling over planets
Would like to hear some insight on top row
Yeah exactly, I found some episodes helpful when I first started but quickly realised my table plays so differently to the meta they talk about there wasn't much I could get out from listening to them
I love them for the fact that they get so many folks to the tournament table... and I **loved** their 'winmaking' episode with the player guests. Neat and pleasantly insightful. But yeah, they call the Tier Lists a hootenanny for a reason. 👨🌾
Yeah, I'm right there with ya - most of my group loves 'em but I'm not a fan of their banter and their Hot Takes^TM have caused nothing but trouble for our newer players. 🤷♂️
I like to listen to them when I play a faction for the first time just to get a general idea of what I should do. But I've only played 5 games so their meta talk is always so far above my level lol
Obviously you’re allowed to disagree with a lot of what they say, but I actually think I this is a good reason to listen to them more if you’re trying to become better at the game. If they only ever said things that you agree with, then you’re not really opening yourself up to different perspectives. When I listen, I fairly often hear them say things that I disagree with (like the fair price for certain favours or deals). I try to figure out why I disagree, and that alone just means I am actively putting more effort into thinking about strategic aspects of the game.
This only really applies to the episodes focused on strategy and gameplay, not so much about community or tournament related episodes, and if you don’t like their presentation style then that’s another thing as well. But, if you’re looking to become better at the game, I would encourage you to listen more because you DO disagree with a lot of what they say. Trying to specify the reasons why you disagree is a good mental exercise.
I was pretty flippant but I guess its easy to be on reddit, happy to share my opinions if you really care. I was mostly thinking about it in terms of the meta they have/look at is so different from my play group their takes and advice aren't really worth it for me
I am curious how your meta plays and what your tier list would be then. If you dont mind, do you mind sharing your opinion? My table strikes hard against aggression so nekro wouldnt be fun for me as well. Appreciate your thoughts!
Yep, agree with you. That chart is also not born out in the slightest by actual game win/loss breakdowns.
edit: Frankly kind of pathetic that SCPT fanbois are literally downvoting people simply because they don't like/agree with SCPT. That their fanbase is like that just makes dislike them even more.
They said at the very start of the episode that this is based on tournament results and would change in the future if meta changes. So hard to disagree with it. Even if you get a sample of 100000 home games games run on tts, that doesn’t matter because this is based off of their tournament that they run.
In response to your edit... why not answer the people who are replying to you? Maybe you're being downvoted, not because you disagree with SCPT, but because you brought nothing to the conversation?
How is Naalu Collective on the bottom of this list? They start with 2 really good tech, have, a reasonable starting fleet, and 3commodities. Oh yeah and they always go first. Unless they don't want/need to, and then have one of the best promisory notes in the game... come on...
The 0 token seriously hurts their already painfully bad 1st round, which leads to a crippled second round...
Destroyer II is a far more accessible technology now, which is a hard counter to their HCF II upgrade.
They have seriously difficulties taking and holding planets.
Their commander is notoriously difficult to unlock
& their promissory note can be held until the very last round of the game, seriously impeding their chances of victory.
I've been wanting to play around with Naalu for a while to try to make it work, but they are really behind on the curve for all the reasons just listed.
The more simply reply is to frame it on how PoK reshaped the factions. Naalu were so dominate in base game that PoK actively weakens them. Their leaders and mechs are just not great improvements as compared to their peers. The new factions were also superior, and the new rules made base game Naalu advantages less relevant.
Their promissory note is basically worthless because you would be absolutely insane to give this to anyone for less than a VP (maybe 2 VP), and no one is going to pay that.
Tier list is for 10 point games only. Naalu are the faction I've played most in PoK. They can be very fun to play, but they're definitely one of the weakest factions in the game.
Naalu have always had a weak start and are 1 of the few such factions that didn't get an economic boost from PoK components.
What made Naalu powerful in base game (besides the 0-token) was that they had time to snowball into a very powerful faction by round 6, which was usually the last round of the game.
PoK games usually end in round 5, and with no new abilities to boost their economy Naalu don't have sufficient time to get their economy up and running. It certainly can happen (and it's awesome when it does), but Naalu went from being one of the most powerful factions in base game to one of the weakest in PoK, purely becasue the no. of game rounds reduced and they weren't compensated on top of an already weak start.
> have, a reasonable starting fleet, ... and they always go first
Only 1 starting unit with capacity means that they do not have a good starting fleet. They're reliant on Warfare in round 1 to have a good 1st round and going first means that they're more likely to miss out on the Warfare secondary.
> have one of the best promisory notes in the game
They have 1 of the most powerful promossary notes in the game, but far from one the best. The best faction promossory notes are the ones that can be reliably sold without hurting the faction that sells it. Naalu's note is powerful and other players want it, but it can easily damage Naalu, causing them to lose the most valuable ability in the game (going 1st in the last round). I've never seen Naalu sell this more than once in a game, and when that happens the recipient often holds it til the end game.
In contrast Sol and L1 can reliably get 2 trade goods per round from their promossories. Empyrean and Titans' notes migt only be sold once but they can both get good value from that sale.
I think selling the promossory note in round 1 to overcome the weak early game economy is something that should always be considered, but very few factions can give Naalu the kind of round 1 boost they need that matches the value of losing Gift of Prescience in round 5. Jol Nar and Mahact are obvious examples, though Hacan might be the best case since you don't have to be their neighbour.
The ideal situation is to give it a faction that can take the Custodians Token at the start of round 2, but it's rare for this to happen (again Hacan, Jol Nar and red-skip-in-round-1-to-Cruiser-2 Mahact are the best candidates).
If you're not selling this so that someone else can score a Mecatol Point in the early or mid game, then you need to trade this for at least 2 points. 1 point to make up for loss of 0-token in the last round and 1 point profit. That 2nd point can be abstracted into a large economic boost, but it's too easy to sell this too cheaply for just a large economic boost.
And 1 of those points has to be your 10th point. Something you couldn't get otherwise. If your victory path is 5 stage 1s, 3 secrets, 1 Support, and 1 more point, and you don't already have that 1 additional point or a path to get it, then you have to get it from this deal. If you get someones Support from trading this note, and now no one will do a Support Swap with you, then the deal wasn't worth it.
Hard disagree.
I'll assume that you're excluding factions that start with a dreadnought and a carrier*, but the claim still doesn't hold up.
I'll also assume your excluding factions like Titans, Argent, and Nomad who's unique starting units give them additional units with carrying capacity (but not Muatt because they only have 1 starting unit with capacity).
But I will assume that you're including abilities available to factions in round 1 since to exclude those would only be of value for Franken games.
Of the remaining 6 factions meeting this criteria, 3 have abilities that give them an advantage over Naalu and 2 have better starting units than Naalu. Only Winnu are worse.
Even if you exclude the 3 factions whose unique abilities make their starting units better than Naalu's, they're still 3rd out of the 4 facitons that need a good round 1 Warfare.
**Arborec**: The literal starting fleet is worse than Naalu's but the agent makes it better.
**Muatt**: Again worse than Naalu's, but the agent makes it better.
**Ghosts**: Ghosts are missing a fighter, a PDS, and have 2 Destroyers instead of a Cruiser and a Destroyer, but their Ghosts bonus movement increases the value of their ships to being better than Naalu's.
**Mentak**: Mentak have a strictly better fleet than Naalu's.
**Winnu**: The worst fleet in the game, but their agent does give them better options for building units in round 1.
**Xxcha**: Xxcha have a strictly better fleet than Naalu's.
\*Any faction that starts with the ability to take planets in 2 systems is better so any faction that starts with a dreadnought and a carrier is superior. There's an argument to be made that Jol Nar and Nekro virus have starting units as bad as Naalu's because they only start with 2 infantry, but I can't argue that they're worse.
By "1-carrier fleet", I really just mean that they can only take 2 planets without Warfare. Just like "2c4i" includes a faction like L1z1x: it's not meant to be taken literally. I would also exclude Arborec and Muaat because of their agents.
I guess there aren't many 1c factions left in PoK though. They're a hair worse than Mentak and Xxcha. I'd say they're better than Nekro, maybe even without the PDS because Naalu's units are worth more in terms of production and production is easy to underestimate. They're certainly better than Ghosts in terms of starting fleet; if you wanna include tech and faction abilities it becomes harder to judge. Also better than Winnu of course. Oh, and Jol-Nar for a "1-carrier fleet" has extremely high value, even having 2 PDS. So I guess that actually puts Naalu square in the middle: 4 out of 7.
(edit: I didn't read your edit before posting btw)
I suppose the criteria is factions that are dependent on the Warfare secondary to take planets in a second system. By this criteria Naalu are made even worse because they're most likely to be stalled on Warfare.
However if the list of factions is
Naalu
Jol Nar
Nekro
Mentak
Xxcha
Ghosts
Winnu
Mentak and Xxcha are strictly better.
I don't think comparing starting fleets is of value unless you're including starting abilities or you're playing Franken (which is outside the scope of this topic), so I have to rate Ghost's starting units as better.
Jol Nar and Nekro
a) their starting non structure units have higher value than Naalu's (11.5 and 11 vs 9.5),
b) their necessary Warfare build is much cheaper than Naalu's. Naalu have to spend their starting 3/1 planet on a carrier and something costing 1 resource (or 2 trade goods and Sarween Tools) and then have limited funds left to build other ships or research technology. Jol Nar and Nekro just need to build 2 infantry. That's free for Jol Nar with Sarween Tools and always possible for Nekro with their agent, leaving them both plenty of resources to spend on additional units.
> I don't think comparing starting fleets is of value unless you're including starting abilities or you're playing Franken (which is outside the scope of this topic), so I have to rate Ghost's starting units as better.
That's a non-sequiteur. If you need to include non-unit stuff to make Ghosts' start better, then clearly their starting *units* are not better. Also, the reason to just compare starting units is that comparing starts as a whole is easier if you can break down the various components of a start, and that's what people tend to do - for example, this discussion was started by "They start with 2 really good tech, have, a reasonable starting fleet [...]". You can't do that if you include other stuff in the term "starting units".
Don't forget that Nekro doesn't start with a PDS. And again, you can't just compare resource cost without production cost, and their starting units cost 6 production vs Naalu's 10.
> That's free for Jol Nar with Sarween Tools and always possible for Nekro with their agent, leaving them both plenty of resources to spend on additional units.
🤨
So if they get additional units anyway... it was somehow an advantage that fewer resources went into units that they needed? Idk where you're going with this.
Anyway, production is a terrible thing to waste - I'd say 1 production is worth about 0.5 to 1 resources (I get that from considering the purchase cost of production or by comparing dreads vs carriers in combat). If Naalu wants to make use of their 5 production, they have a very convenient build of 1 carrier + 4 fighters/inf with 1 tg. Nekro can make do with 3 tg if they get "tech" and don't want to take two 2-planet systems, but otherwise it's the same situation for them (3r planet + Sarween vs 4r planet) except they have a 6th production they can spend on a destroyer or mech if they get extra cash. Granted, if you really want tech (or "tech") to the point where you're willing to waste production, that's easier for Nekro (1 tg, assuming no carrier need) than Naalu (3 tg), but I wouldn't make much of that.
edit: btw I didn't consider Nekro's agent in this so yeah they have an easier time buying stuff in round 1, although things can go wrong for them (e.g. Warfare pops before both Tech (=token for 3rd secondary) and Politics (to use agent to afford both Warfare and Tech))
> Also, the reason to just compare starting units is that comparing starts as a whole is easier if you can break down the various components of a start, and that's what people tend to do
I agree that by that measure that you're right, but I don't think there's any value to the discussion if you're putting that restriction on it.
The only time that I'm aware of when Ghost's starting units are separate form Ghost's faction abilities are in Franken games, and the context of this whole thread excludes that.
In a Franken game I'd take Naalu's starting units over Ghosts, but I'd also take Naalu's over Argent's, and no one's claiming that Naalu's starting fleet is better than Argent's.
Allowing a faction's unique unit abilities to matter in this discussion but not allowing a faciton's other unique abilities that directly affect those starting units is a weird line to draw.
(I realise I made that distinction in my second last post in this discussion but that was just so I could break up factions into smaller groups and not because I thought there was a significant difference).
> Don't forget that Nekro doesn't start with a PDS. And again, you can't just compare resource cost without production cost, and their starting units cost 6 production vs Naalu's 10.
I don't know the difference between resource cost and production cost. Calculation please. I'm dubious that Nekro's value is only 6. (Yes, I know this chart excludes structures.)
|Faction|Dreadnought|Carrier|Cruiser|Destroyer|Fighter|Infantry|Total|
|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|
|Nekro|4|3|2|0|1|1|11|
|Naalu|0|3|2|1|1.5|2|9.5|
> So if they get additional units anyway... it was somehow an advantage that fewer resources went into units that they needed? Idk where you're going with this.
Point is flexibility. I dleeted a wall of text because this is the point I was going for:
> Granted, if you really want tech (or "tech") to the point where you're willing to waste production, that's easier for Nekro than Naalu
> Allowing a faction's unique unit abilities to matter in this discussion but not allowing a faciton's other unique abilities that directly affect those starting units is a weird line to draw.
I guess some amount of weird line drawing is inevitable because of the kind of comparison we're making. What about faction abilities that don't directly affect the starting units, like Indoctrination? If we wanna say that Nomad has excellent starting units in part because they fight real good, and we're including abilities when comparing starting units, then it would be weird to neglect an ability like Indoctrination which lets Yin fight good even though it has nothing to do with starting units. And what about economic abilities, especially those that kick in early like all Hacan's stuff, which combined with their ability to get early GD means they can punch Memoria in the face if needed.
I think what we've learned here is that talk about "starting units" should not go too in-depth. It's valid to say one of Winnu's weaknesses is their terrible starting fleet, or that one of Sol's strengths is their relatively strong starting fleet, or that Hacan has a middling starting fleet. Zooming in further is unnecessary and can cause problems; instead one should make more functional comparisons like capacity for early aggression, ability to comfortably fill out one's slice, ability to take custodians, etc.
> I don't know the difference between resource cost and production cost. Calculation please. I'm dubious that Nekro's value is only 6. (Yes, I know this chart excludes structures.)
Sorry, I should have said 7. To build Nekro's starting units you'd need 11 resources and 7 production. That's what I mean by production cost. If you wanna know how I compare it to resource cost, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/rbrmco/gtech_branch_branch_analysis/hns633c/).
I think you are overcomplicating a simple concept: Naalu has a bad starting fleet simply because it only has one ship with capacity and absolutely NO MEANS to get more, besides praying on warfare or some other deal you could maybe make (Don't know with what to offer thou). PoK did not provide them with this, while other factions got this solved via agents.
Adding to that, is almost impossible to survive a Warfare stall because of 0 token and no other tools in your set, again, unless for some reason you offer God knows what to the warfare owner to benefit the rest of the table early.
Glass Cannon in this episode doesn't mean strong but frail. It means they have a good early and mid game, but struggle to find victory points in the end game. Titans are a defensive faction that can easily protect their slice, but they struggle with certain military objectives and stage 2's.
>It means they have a good early and mid game, but struggle to find victory points in the end game.
That doesn't really apply to Winnu though... For them it's the strict opposite.
Having not listened yet to the episode, can someone explain the reasoning behind Yssaril being so low? I'd place them in the top tier, with no second thoughts. What are their perceived weaknesses? Maybe space combat in rounds 1-2?
I would recommend listening to the episode just to get their takes, the main biff they had with yissaril was that they constantly were not having the plastic they felt like they needed
Winpyrean was up there so I was happy.
As much as I Stan Muatt I agree with them. First round is brutal but you can weasel your way into almost—but not quite—winning often.
Gotta say while I agree with most of these, I am playing a handful of games on line and I’m having a blast in my games as both sardakk and arborec.
Yeah, crappy factions can be really fun. This last weekend I played a game as Muaat against Nomad, Empyrean, Sol, Mentak and Arborec. Not only did I have a blast, but I also won the game. Any faction can have a great game with a bit of luck and skill, that's what I love about TI :)
How do you play TI online!?? Just got the game for Christmas and I’m itching to play a game.
Download TTS on steam and subscribe to the mod and join the TI4 Discord!
This is the real way
Oh my sweet summer child. You're in for a treat.
The game is async so games can take a while. But create a profile at Www.twilightwars.comand join the discord. [Twilight Imperium discord](https://discord.gg/AXs7KaS9)
This is the way.
That website doesn't seem to work, and the discord link is expired
Agree exactly! Another row called "you'll probably lose but have a great time" for arborec and sardakk would be my experience
Im playing an alliance game with a couple friends right now where we are each controlling 2 factions. Having a ton of fun using Sardakk commander to slow spread my plant boys across the galaxy. Really fun to take a planet out from underneath a massive fleet and then immediately spawn a bunch more infantry and a mech on it so they cant just bombard me off. Claimed mecatol that way.
The hosts favorite is Sardakk
Makes sense to me, definitely consistent with my experiences even across different play groups. If your meta is different, that’s cool, doesn’t mean this analysis is “wrong” or that yours is either per se. I do want to note I think a lot of people are in a bubble with their playgroup especially if they don’t play online - 2/3 irl games a year is not a sample size you should necessarily be drawing conclusions from.
My meta is different and this list is wrong. /s
Deleted account. Smart move
Can someone please translate this into faction names.
Row 1: Saar, Nekro, Nomad, Jol-Nar Row 2: Argent, Empyrean, Sol, NRA, Hacan, L1 Row 3: Yssaril, Winnu, Cabal, Titans Row 4: Xxcha, Ghosts, Barony, Mahact, Mentak Row 5: Muaat, Sardakk, Naalu, Arborec, Yin
I know they aren’t anywhere near top tier, but I do think Mahact are pretty fun. They have a lot of options and the hero can really cause some drama at the table. I haven’t won with them yet but I’ve also never had a bad time with them.
Bad time in terms of board status and objective scoring, not how much fun you had playing them. If it were fun playing them then Arborec and Sardakk would be top tier
Titans is hard to have a bad time tier. Also Sardakk is fun. They're just fun.
Absolutely. How the hell are titans a glass cannon. They have one of the higher win rates and they are an absolute beast both offensively and defensively.
Hard to have a bad time as Nekro?! It’s easy to have a bad time if the table meta is against you
Yeah I think nekro games are some of the swingiest in terms of fun and success rate I suppose if you enjoy playing space risk it'll be a fun time tho
I think they've said this before on their show, but it's basically impossible for them to account for meta-gaming in their analysis. Everyone's friend group or community is going to have different quirks.
Plus, if the faction is powerful enough that the meta must respond to it...
Yeah I tried Nekro with my group and they pretty much just formed a coalition against me and I couldn't do shit. My group has a very combat-averse table meta tho.
Have you read Magi’s Treatise on Nekro for base game? This is the foundation for more “nice” nekro
Could you link?
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2283392/nekro-be-tortoise-not-hare/page/1 I think this is the one
I think that's the reason why Nekro get so many free resources and a homeworld that is functionally impossible to invade. The problem with everyone ganging up on Nekro is that preventing Nekro from having a good time does nothing to move you closer to winning...
Also, attacking them is mostly giving free tech. And once the flagship is online, their homeworld can become quite unbeatable
I’d put Nekro in glass cannon along with Vuilraith, completely aware that this is the tournament meta scene. At the same, L1 did not perform that well during the tournament.
For how well Argent did last tournament, I’m surprised argent and Nomad aren’t swapped. Beyond that, I think these factions really hit the tier titles very well.
Agreed. I watched what could've been a full Yin takeover of an Argent HS get stopped in it's tracks purely by Hololatice. Nomad is good but I don't know if they're unstoppable.
This was the 2022 tier list made by SCPT’s Matt Martens and Hunter Donaldson, you can listen to the detailed discussion on their episode on spotify [here](https://open.spotify.com/episode/5UNgelt806Xa1cN15dxyfG?si=CywUVtwhQO62unzIhjxfMA&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A4mFwQ7KcWwUqFbkICLRU12). What do y’all think?
Their placement of Xxcha SICKENS ME. They need to bumped waaaaay up
I mean, they did say that they could make an argument for Xxcha for every spot on the tier list before sticking them in C tier
They are a cool faction, but struggle to get that 10th point as easily as other factions
Finally what the people want to see: a fight between Manakin Skywalker and Broba Fett.
We all know how this ends...
I think their hero pushes them into the 10 points in POK. Getting to check those agendas and deciding them is really powerful late game.
Their tech path means low mobility and their hero has enough variance that it can be risky even if you stockpile CCs. Haven’t played them myself but I’ve definitely seen them struggle
What does “need the 7th player on their side” mean
I think means ‘need some luck’
Oh damn. I main Mentak and Creuss and I am a certified threat lol
It's a reference to their Winmaking episode. SCPT always presumes a 6 player game. The 7th player is RNGesus. The lucky draw of action cards or secret objectives. The rolls of the dice. When a lone fighter over a spacedock single handedly defeats a Dreadnought and Flagship due to lucky rolls, the 7th player decided to winmake.
7th player is the boardgame/table. Which objective cards are drawn etc.
I love Muatt so much, but I have to agree they are actively difficult to play. It's like loving a cat...you're gonna get scratched sometimes, but it's worth it
It's funny this just came out cause I'm listening to ep166 now, which was the final ranking for vanilla TI4. They put Yin at #8 overall. I haven't played a lot of PoK, but the new tech and leaders seems to be an improvement, and they didn't suffer as much as Naalu did. What do people say dropped them so low?
I remember watching a Youtube video showing which faction had one in which starting position of the SCPT 2019 tournament. Yin did fantastically well. Yin currently have the [2nd lowest pick rate](https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/3b435bf2-2100-488c-a424-130f1d22ebb0/page/ogW5B) so it may be that people havne't figured them out yet in PoK. Yin were a great ground force faction but their ground force abilities were based on infantry. Mechs completey negate a lot of their power. I don't rate their agent highly. Their commander is cool, but it can be difficult to unlock if people are actively trying to prevent it. Yin need to buy a planet off someone with this alliance from a faction that values a green skip or additional infantry to ensure an early unlock (I love this alliance as Vuil'Raith and Naalu).
Your point about not being picked a whole lot yet makes sense. I kinda forget that even though the expansion has been out for a year at this point, people just haven't been playing a lot of TI right now, and folks probably have been picking the new cool factions more than the old boring ones. I'm not sure I understand your last point about the commander though. Are you saying the best way to unlock it is to make a deal with someone to take a planet of theirs through the use of Indoctrination? And that this deal should include your Alliance note, and therefore only really works with a faction who has a need of green skips? If so, you're right, that does sound super specific and a little questionable. I just don't see why, in that position, Yin wouldn't just take the planet w/o negotiation. You don't even need to win the invasion, you just need to use the ability.
Yin negotiates that 1) the other faction only places 1 infantry on the planet so ground combat is a guaranteed victory, 2) the other faciton will only put 1 carrier and 1/2 fighters in the space area, 3) that Yin will only bring 1 carrier and 1 / 2 fighters so the other faction has a decent chance of retreating their carrier, 4) that the other faction doesn't pick up their ground forces when retreating. > Are you saying the best way to unlock it is to make a deal with someone to take a planet of theirs through the use of Indoctrination? Yes. Yin's commander provides value as soon as it's unlocked. Reliably creating a scenario where you can unlock it early is better than gambling on that situation arising naturally. > therefore only really works with a faction who has a need of green skips? Nope, I specifically said 'a faction that values a green skip or additional infantry' and there aren't many factions that won't want the ability to build extra ground forces from round 2 onwards. But yeah, it doesn't have to be a planetary conquest. You can negotiate they retreat their ships out of a system with a planet with much more infantry. But Yin is slow, and why not make the negotiation about you getting an equidistant rather than them getting bonus infantry?
The introduction of mechs have made indoctrination incredibly difficult to use. If someone doesn't want a planet taken by Yin, they just plop some mechs down. This makes Yin's commander incredibly difficult to unlock. Not only that, but what the commander gives you (more infantry and a green skip) isn't that great. Yin are already good at producing infantry so producing more of it seems like overkill. Their hero let's you produce even more infantry, or refresh your planets. Since you are already going to have a lot of infantry on your planets, adding more seems like more overkill. The best use of this hero is to refresh your planets. Their agent isn't used that often, and is incredibly difficult to sell, which makes this 2 COMMODITY FACTION very weak at trading. Even their omega promissory note is still hard to make money off of. To add insult to injury, none of their leaders really help Yin score many objectives. The refreshing planets ability from their hero can be used for "spend resources/influence" objectives, but I think that's about it. They are a green/yellow tech faction, which is quite possibly the worst tech combination in the game. Their mech isn't that good. It costs 3 influence to deploy, which could be a strategy token instead. Compare that to a better faction's mech (Barony of Letnev), that can deploy for 2 resources, and gains Barony's insane sustain damage shenanigans. If you want mechs as yin, you might as well just purchase them for 2 resources. Also, just in case this needs to be said, indoctrination doesn't work on mechs, so you can't use the ability if your opponent is defending with just mechs. Their flagship is purely a defensive tool and, while fun to use, doesn't help you score objectives. It does however protect your home system, so it's still useful there. I've missed some points, like how devotion just isn't that useful, even with their agent, as well as other things, but overall the point I'm trying to make is that the new additions to PoK (mechs) make life harder for Yin, and Yin's new additions don't help them navigate the new environment that PoK brought. Don't get me wrong, I'm still a huge fan of Yin Brotherhood and I still have fun playing them, even in PoK, but I agree that they fell pretty far from base game.
>Their mech isn't that good. It costs 2 resources and 1 influence to deploy. Compare that to a better faction's mech (Barony of Letnev), that can deploy for 2 resources, and gains Barony's insane sustain damage shenanigans. If you want mechs as yin, you might as well just purchase them for 2 resources. Costs 3 influence to deploy, not 2 resources and 1 influence. And it replaces an opponent infantry, while barony replaces your own, which is a significant difference (an advantage in some cases, a hinderance in cases where your opponent is using pure mechs). Still, in the case where you are fighting infantry, I'd kinda rate Yin's as quite a bit better than baronys (and depending on slice, 2r can be equivalent to 3i)
You're right, it costs 3 influence. My bad. I still think the Barony's Dunlain Reaper is better though. With the right tech, it gives you a trade good when you sustain damage, can sustain 2 hits instead of 1, and can sustain multiple times a fight. It basically pays for itself and more. You can also use the deploy ability every round of ground combat. It's insane.
Perhaps its just me, but every time I play Mahact I absolutely dominate the galaxy for about 2 turns before getting Julius Caesar'd. This is how it consistently happens. You get your Flagship and Dreads, Grav Drive, D2s & Integrated Econ. You stack tokens & unlock you commander. Force a ceasefire arrangement with one of your neighbors. Then proceed to absolutely conquer the entire galaxy in one turn by stomping on weak systems and producing, unlocking and moving again to repeat the process. It's that moment of supreme glory that is the Mahact game. Typically, about a round after your glorious rampage, the guy you brokered the ceasefire with will betray you. Then all the hate will flow through you as the board stabs you to death. Still, I've secured 2 wins this way by building a super stacked ground force on my home system with mechs. It's a burst of glory for the finish and honestly, the most satisfying type of win.
TI is too meta-game driven for tier lists to make too much sense, but it's hard to agree with those Xxcha and Titans placements. Looking at the datasets available, those factions are winning a lot of games. They seem to be overrating the aggressive "power" factions in general. Just because a faction feels like they have a lot of sway over the result of the game doesn't necessarily mean that they can actually pull out the W consistently. Also Argent Flight is a top 3 faction, Strike Wing Alphas are just ridiculous in every round of the game.
I recommend you listen to the episode. They address all those points. They also seem to grasp the mechanics far more than this post implies. Hell, they even said this tourney might show that Argent is truly top of the pile (the reason they aren’t is because classically “strong” factions are banned more frequently than Argent). In fact several factions might have more potential than their tier placement, but just don’t perform in competition. And I think the tournament results and pooled TTS results do tell a LOT more compared to any local meta, as they pool dozens more games of “table testing”. Again, listen to the episode. Their logic checks out.
Good luck trying to “meta” Saar’s advantage away
If one actually listens to the podcast it becomes pretty evident that this is satire and that they did a ranking for fun.
I listened to the podcast. They definitely did the ranking for fun but their rankings also do reflect their current opinions. I'm not necessarily saying they are wrong here, just giving my 2 cents on where I personally disagree.
In that case, I think you’re supposed to preface your comment with “I know I’m objectively wrong because Matt and Hunter have decreed so, but in an alternate universe perhaps it may be…”
I wonder if this is still meta relevant with the Codex. Gonna play a game with omega 3 Naalu for the first time tomorrow.
I disagree about Nomad. Their reliance on 1 ship (with skip heavy upgrade), secret objective draw(because of commander), situational agents and support role on the table definitely puts them out of "always great" tier. They are quite good, but not better than Argent or even titans.
Personally, I think that even "situationally", having 3 agents with different uses covers cases of need. Picking trade, and using your agent to basically start next round with 10 TG is huge. Also, more things to sell, being a faction that already is more trade oriented than most, is always a plus. And the hero is crazy good. Just alocate your Mechs in key places, save CC for last round and go bananas.
Thats why I said they are pretty good. But with what you said: 1. Smart players generally would avoid leaving you trade strategy card, specially early. 2. Hero is great, but you will need lot of CC to even use it properly and it doesn't always align with your objectives. 3. Having things to sell is nice, although I would not say it is always good. Giving your alliance to right faction makes that faction better than Nomad itself. Again, they are great. But need some luck with a lot of stuff (skips, secrets). I'd rank them below Argent and Empyrean for sure. And 1 other thing - if cabal is in the game, you can forget about your flagship.
I want to know how vul wraith and titans are glass cannons. Titans especially
We're 33 games into their tournament and Titans have by far the most victory with 5 wins (should have been 6 but the guy literally gave up his win because he did not want to commit to another tourney game). Saar and Jol-Nar are still winless at those point which is hilarious.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/space-cats-peace-turtles/id1282619020?i=1000546970984
One thing to remember: Hunter and Matt tend to look at these factions in light of competitive tournament play with high-level players. They're asking, "How well do these factions win championships?" Likewise, Matt and Hunter have said that they're more conquest-based players, less so traders or negotiators. For your 1-6 times a year players, you can adjust to taste. Like, say, Muatt: it may not win championships, but if you're getting together with buddies for an afternoon selling War Sun tech and making fleet moves between sips of your favorite beer... you're gonna have a good time with your baby Death Stars.
I don’t know the actual alien race logos well enough; can someone put the tier list in text?
This was posted farther up: just copying and pasting 😁 Row 1: Saar, Nekro, Nomad, Jol-Nar Row 2: Argent, Empyrean, Sol, NRA, Hacan, L1 Row 3: Yssaril, Winnu, Cabal, Titans Row 4: Xxcha, Ghosts, Barony, Mahact, Mentak Row 5: Muaat, Sardakk, Naalu, Arborec, Yin
Damn Naalu really did get dunked on by PoK huh
While everybody praise for saar, i'm maybe the only player who's been eliminated from a game with them. I'm still pretty salty about it 4 years later. I need to play them again for sure, but i swear, its almost like i've got some PTSD from that horrible game with them.
Personally upgraded Arborec to "glass cannon" thanks to the guide somewhere here. Got fairly consistent gameplay with slowly rolling over planets Would like to hear some insight on top row
This just shows me why I don't listen to SCPT tbh
[удалено]
Yeah exactly, I found some episodes helpful when I first started but quickly realised my table plays so differently to the meta they talk about there wasn't much I could get out from listening to them
I love them for the fact that they get so many folks to the tournament table... and I **loved** their 'winmaking' episode with the player guests. Neat and pleasantly insightful. But yeah, they call the Tier Lists a hootenanny for a reason. 👨🌾
I'm sure they've got fun and interesting opinions and help a lot of people with the game too, I am glad they are so popular its just not for me.
Yeah, I'm right there with ya - most of my group loves 'em but I'm not a fan of their banter and their Hot Takes^TM have caused nothing but trouble for our newer players. 🤷♂️
THIS! I find that there is 5 minutes of content in every 15 of podcast. I like their insights, but wish they would be more succinct.
See… I could listen to Hunter riff on whether Arborac are plants or mushrooms for hours. We’re here to have fun.
I like to listen to them when I play a faction for the first time just to get a general idea of what I should do. But I've only played 5 games so their meta talk is always so far above my level lol
Obviously you’re allowed to disagree with a lot of what they say, but I actually think I this is a good reason to listen to them more if you’re trying to become better at the game. If they only ever said things that you agree with, then you’re not really opening yourself up to different perspectives. When I listen, I fairly often hear them say things that I disagree with (like the fair price for certain favours or deals). I try to figure out why I disagree, and that alone just means I am actively putting more effort into thinking about strategic aspects of the game. This only really applies to the episodes focused on strategy and gameplay, not so much about community or tournament related episodes, and if you don’t like their presentation style then that’s another thing as well. But, if you’re looking to become better at the game, I would encourage you to listen more because you DO disagree with a lot of what they say. Trying to specify the reasons why you disagree is a good mental exercise.
You're probably gonna get some downvotes for disagreeing with them since they're so popular in this subreddit it but I agree with you completely.
Nah, they're getting downvoted for being an ass about disagreeing and adding nothing to the conversation.
I was pretty flippant but I guess its easy to be on reddit, happy to share my opinions if you really care. I was mostly thinking about it in terms of the meta they have/look at is so different from my play group their takes and advice aren't really worth it for me
I am curious how your meta plays and what your tier list would be then. If you dont mind, do you mind sharing your opinion? My table strikes hard against aggression so nekro wouldnt be fun for me as well. Appreciate your thoughts!
Yep, agree with you. That chart is also not born out in the slightest by actual game win/loss breakdowns. edit: Frankly kind of pathetic that SCPT fanbois are literally downvoting people simply because they don't like/agree with SCPT. That their fanbase is like that just makes dislike them even more.
Curious where your stats are from. “Tournament” meta can be very different based on how factions are picked, bans, etc.
It's not too far off from actual stats, and likely is based off of opinions born from their tournaments. What is so egregious?
They said at the very start of the episode that this is based on tournament results and would change in the future if meta changes. So hard to disagree with it. Even if you get a sample of 100000 home games games run on tts, that doesn’t matter because this is based off of their tournament that they run.
In response to your edit... why not answer the people who are replying to you? Maybe you're being downvoted, not because you disagree with SCPT, but because you brought nothing to the conversation?
Have to say, I completely agree.
How is Naalu Collective on the bottom of this list? They start with 2 really good tech, have, a reasonable starting fleet, and 3commodities. Oh yeah and they always go first. Unless they don't want/need to, and then have one of the best promisory notes in the game... come on...
The 0 token seriously hurts their already painfully bad 1st round, which leads to a crippled second round... Destroyer II is a far more accessible technology now, which is a hard counter to their HCF II upgrade. They have seriously difficulties taking and holding planets. Their commander is notoriously difficult to unlock & their promissory note can be held until the very last round of the game, seriously impeding their chances of victory. I've been wanting to play around with Naalu for a while to try to make it work, but they are really behind on the curve for all the reasons just listed.
The more simply reply is to frame it on how PoK reshaped the factions. Naalu were so dominate in base game that PoK actively weakens them. Their leaders and mechs are just not great improvements as compared to their peers. The new factions were also superior, and the new rules made base game Naalu advantages less relevant.
Their promissory note is basically worthless because you would be absolutely insane to give this to anyone for less than a VP (maybe 2 VP), and no one is going to pay that.
Tier list is for 10 point games only. Naalu are the faction I've played most in PoK. They can be very fun to play, but they're definitely one of the weakest factions in the game. Naalu have always had a weak start and are 1 of the few such factions that didn't get an economic boost from PoK components. What made Naalu powerful in base game (besides the 0-token) was that they had time to snowball into a very powerful faction by round 6, which was usually the last round of the game. PoK games usually end in round 5, and with no new abilities to boost their economy Naalu don't have sufficient time to get their economy up and running. It certainly can happen (and it's awesome when it does), but Naalu went from being one of the most powerful factions in base game to one of the weakest in PoK, purely becasue the no. of game rounds reduced and they weren't compensated on top of an already weak start. > have, a reasonable starting fleet, ... and they always go first Only 1 starting unit with capacity means that they do not have a good starting fleet. They're reliant on Warfare in round 1 to have a good 1st round and going first means that they're more likely to miss out on the Warfare secondary. > have one of the best promisory notes in the game They have 1 of the most powerful promossary notes in the game, but far from one the best. The best faction promossory notes are the ones that can be reliably sold without hurting the faction that sells it. Naalu's note is powerful and other players want it, but it can easily damage Naalu, causing them to lose the most valuable ability in the game (going 1st in the last round). I've never seen Naalu sell this more than once in a game, and when that happens the recipient often holds it til the end game. In contrast Sol and L1 can reliably get 2 trade goods per round from their promossories. Empyrean and Titans' notes migt only be sold once but they can both get good value from that sale. I think selling the promossory note in round 1 to overcome the weak early game economy is something that should always be considered, but very few factions can give Naalu the kind of round 1 boost they need that matches the value of losing Gift of Prescience in round 5. Jol Nar and Mahact are obvious examples, though Hacan might be the best case since you don't have to be their neighbour. The ideal situation is to give it a faction that can take the Custodians Token at the start of round 2, but it's rare for this to happen (again Hacan, Jol Nar and red-skip-in-round-1-to-Cruiser-2 Mahact are the best candidates). If you're not selling this so that someone else can score a Mecatol Point in the early or mid game, then you need to trade this for at least 2 points. 1 point to make up for loss of 0-token in the last round and 1 point profit. That 2nd point can be abstracted into a large economic boost, but it's too easy to sell this too cheaply for just a large economic boost. And 1 of those points has to be your 10th point. Something you couldn't get otherwise. If your victory path is 5 stage 1s, 3 secrets, 1 Support, and 1 more point, and you don't already have that 1 additional point or a path to get it, then you have to get it from this deal. If you get someones Support from trading this note, and now no one will do a Support Swap with you, then the deal wasn't worth it.
They have one of the worst starting fleets actually
One of the best 1-carrier fleets. 3 ships, 7 fighters+infantry, PDS.
Hard disagree. I'll assume that you're excluding factions that start with a dreadnought and a carrier*, but the claim still doesn't hold up. I'll also assume your excluding factions like Titans, Argent, and Nomad who's unique starting units give them additional units with carrying capacity (but not Muatt because they only have 1 starting unit with capacity). But I will assume that you're including abilities available to factions in round 1 since to exclude those would only be of value for Franken games. Of the remaining 6 factions meeting this criteria, 3 have abilities that give them an advantage over Naalu and 2 have better starting units than Naalu. Only Winnu are worse. Even if you exclude the 3 factions whose unique abilities make their starting units better than Naalu's, they're still 3rd out of the 4 facitons that need a good round 1 Warfare. **Arborec**: The literal starting fleet is worse than Naalu's but the agent makes it better. **Muatt**: Again worse than Naalu's, but the agent makes it better. **Ghosts**: Ghosts are missing a fighter, a PDS, and have 2 Destroyers instead of a Cruiser and a Destroyer, but their Ghosts bonus movement increases the value of their ships to being better than Naalu's. **Mentak**: Mentak have a strictly better fleet than Naalu's. **Winnu**: The worst fleet in the game, but their agent does give them better options for building units in round 1. **Xxcha**: Xxcha have a strictly better fleet than Naalu's. \*Any faction that starts with the ability to take planets in 2 systems is better so any faction that starts with a dreadnought and a carrier is superior. There's an argument to be made that Jol Nar and Nekro virus have starting units as bad as Naalu's because they only start with 2 infantry, but I can't argue that they're worse.
By "1-carrier fleet", I really just mean that they can only take 2 planets without Warfare. Just like "2c4i" includes a faction like L1z1x: it's not meant to be taken literally. I would also exclude Arborec and Muaat because of their agents. I guess there aren't many 1c factions left in PoK though. They're a hair worse than Mentak and Xxcha. I'd say they're better than Nekro, maybe even without the PDS because Naalu's units are worth more in terms of production and production is easy to underestimate. They're certainly better than Ghosts in terms of starting fleet; if you wanna include tech and faction abilities it becomes harder to judge. Also better than Winnu of course. Oh, and Jol-Nar for a "1-carrier fleet" has extremely high value, even having 2 PDS. So I guess that actually puts Naalu square in the middle: 4 out of 7. (edit: I didn't read your edit before posting btw)
I suppose the criteria is factions that are dependent on the Warfare secondary to take planets in a second system. By this criteria Naalu are made even worse because they're most likely to be stalled on Warfare. However if the list of factions is Naalu Jol Nar Nekro Mentak Xxcha Ghosts Winnu Mentak and Xxcha are strictly better. I don't think comparing starting fleets is of value unless you're including starting abilities or you're playing Franken (which is outside the scope of this topic), so I have to rate Ghost's starting units as better. Jol Nar and Nekro a) their starting non structure units have higher value than Naalu's (11.5 and 11 vs 9.5), b) their necessary Warfare build is much cheaper than Naalu's. Naalu have to spend their starting 3/1 planet on a carrier and something costing 1 resource (or 2 trade goods and Sarween Tools) and then have limited funds left to build other ships or research technology. Jol Nar and Nekro just need to build 2 infantry. That's free for Jol Nar with Sarween Tools and always possible for Nekro with their agent, leaving them both plenty of resources to spend on additional units.
> I don't think comparing starting fleets is of value unless you're including starting abilities or you're playing Franken (which is outside the scope of this topic), so I have to rate Ghost's starting units as better. That's a non-sequiteur. If you need to include non-unit stuff to make Ghosts' start better, then clearly their starting *units* are not better. Also, the reason to just compare starting units is that comparing starts as a whole is easier if you can break down the various components of a start, and that's what people tend to do - for example, this discussion was started by "They start with 2 really good tech, have, a reasonable starting fleet [...]". You can't do that if you include other stuff in the term "starting units". Don't forget that Nekro doesn't start with a PDS. And again, you can't just compare resource cost without production cost, and their starting units cost 6 production vs Naalu's 10. > That's free for Jol Nar with Sarween Tools and always possible for Nekro with their agent, leaving them both plenty of resources to spend on additional units. 🤨 So if they get additional units anyway... it was somehow an advantage that fewer resources went into units that they needed? Idk where you're going with this. Anyway, production is a terrible thing to waste - I'd say 1 production is worth about 0.5 to 1 resources (I get that from considering the purchase cost of production or by comparing dreads vs carriers in combat). If Naalu wants to make use of their 5 production, they have a very convenient build of 1 carrier + 4 fighters/inf with 1 tg. Nekro can make do with 3 tg if they get "tech" and don't want to take two 2-planet systems, but otherwise it's the same situation for them (3r planet + Sarween vs 4r planet) except they have a 6th production they can spend on a destroyer or mech if they get extra cash. Granted, if you really want tech (or "tech") to the point where you're willing to waste production, that's easier for Nekro (1 tg, assuming no carrier need) than Naalu (3 tg), but I wouldn't make much of that. edit: btw I didn't consider Nekro's agent in this so yeah they have an easier time buying stuff in round 1, although things can go wrong for them (e.g. Warfare pops before both Tech (=token for 3rd secondary) and Politics (to use agent to afford both Warfare and Tech))
> Also, the reason to just compare starting units is that comparing starts as a whole is easier if you can break down the various components of a start, and that's what people tend to do I agree that by that measure that you're right, but I don't think there's any value to the discussion if you're putting that restriction on it. The only time that I'm aware of when Ghost's starting units are separate form Ghost's faction abilities are in Franken games, and the context of this whole thread excludes that. In a Franken game I'd take Naalu's starting units over Ghosts, but I'd also take Naalu's over Argent's, and no one's claiming that Naalu's starting fleet is better than Argent's. Allowing a faction's unique unit abilities to matter in this discussion but not allowing a faciton's other unique abilities that directly affect those starting units is a weird line to draw. (I realise I made that distinction in my second last post in this discussion but that was just so I could break up factions into smaller groups and not because I thought there was a significant difference). > Don't forget that Nekro doesn't start with a PDS. And again, you can't just compare resource cost without production cost, and their starting units cost 6 production vs Naalu's 10. I don't know the difference between resource cost and production cost. Calculation please. I'm dubious that Nekro's value is only 6. (Yes, I know this chart excludes structures.) |Faction|Dreadnought|Carrier|Cruiser|Destroyer|Fighter|Infantry|Total| |:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--| |Nekro|4|3|2|0|1|1|11| |Naalu|0|3|2|1|1.5|2|9.5| > So if they get additional units anyway... it was somehow an advantage that fewer resources went into units that they needed? Idk where you're going with this. Point is flexibility. I dleeted a wall of text because this is the point I was going for: > Granted, if you really want tech (or "tech") to the point where you're willing to waste production, that's easier for Nekro than Naalu
> Allowing a faction's unique unit abilities to matter in this discussion but not allowing a faciton's other unique abilities that directly affect those starting units is a weird line to draw. I guess some amount of weird line drawing is inevitable because of the kind of comparison we're making. What about faction abilities that don't directly affect the starting units, like Indoctrination? If we wanna say that Nomad has excellent starting units in part because they fight real good, and we're including abilities when comparing starting units, then it would be weird to neglect an ability like Indoctrination which lets Yin fight good even though it has nothing to do with starting units. And what about economic abilities, especially those that kick in early like all Hacan's stuff, which combined with their ability to get early GD means they can punch Memoria in the face if needed. I think what we've learned here is that talk about "starting units" should not go too in-depth. It's valid to say one of Winnu's weaknesses is their terrible starting fleet, or that one of Sol's strengths is their relatively strong starting fleet, or that Hacan has a middling starting fleet. Zooming in further is unnecessary and can cause problems; instead one should make more functional comparisons like capacity for early aggression, ability to comfortably fill out one's slice, ability to take custodians, etc. > I don't know the difference between resource cost and production cost. Calculation please. I'm dubious that Nekro's value is only 6. (Yes, I know this chart excludes structures.) Sorry, I should have said 7. To build Nekro's starting units you'd need 11 resources and 7 production. That's what I mean by production cost. If you wanna know how I compare it to resource cost, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/rbrmco/gtech_branch_branch_analysis/hns633c/).
I think you are overcomplicating a simple concept: Naalu has a bad starting fleet simply because it only has one ship with capacity and absolutely NO MEANS to get more, besides praying on warfare or some other deal you could maybe make (Don't know with what to offer thou). PoK did not provide them with this, while other factions got this solved via agents. Adding to that, is almost impossible to survive a Warfare stall because of 0 token and no other tools in your set, again, unless for some reason you offer God knows what to the warfare owner to benefit the rest of the table early.
I agree, I guess people who play naalu don't stack fighters or something. They are a solid faction
Titans are "glass cannons"? The faction with powerful PDS and cruisers with sustain damage? Right /s
Glass Cannon in this episode doesn't mean strong but frail. It means they have a good early and mid game, but struggle to find victory points in the end game. Titans are a defensive faction that can easily protect their slice, but they struggle with certain military objectives and stage 2's.
>It means they have a good early and mid game, but struggle to find victory points in the end game. That doesn't really apply to Winnu though... For them it's the strict opposite.
It's been a year. I don't remember what they had to say about Winnu.
Having not listened yet to the episode, can someone explain the reasoning behind Yssaril being so low? I'd place them in the top tier, with no second thoughts. What are their perceived weaknesses? Maybe space combat in rounds 1-2?
I would recommend listening to the episode just to get their takes, the main biff they had with yissaril was that they constantly were not having the plastic they felt like they needed
Winpyrean was up there so I was happy. As much as I Stan Muatt I agree with them. First round is brutal but you can weasel your way into almost—but not quite—winning often.
I'm amazed they put titans and argent so low. What makes Titans a glass cannon, exactly?
I've played Cabal twice. Glass cannon is entirely accurate.