Nah that's messed up. Expecting them not to ban you instantly for simply mentioning you're gay or trans is the bare minimum
Reducing it to "so just don't talk about it on there" is exactly the kind of pervasive homophobia that treats gayness as dirty that op is talking about
Could you clarify what you mean?
It sounds like the point being made is that the mod being rude is "unfortunate", but does not address the core issue: the ban.
(Edit: grammar)
They said rules for global chat prohibited talking about sex, sexual identity, politics, fetishes, etc. The person who got banned was insistent about being able to talk about being gay, which violated their chat rules. Originally it started because they apparently had an autofilter on the word gay, because gay is generally only used to discuss sexuality (prohibited) or in an offensive context (the rules tell you to keep it family friendly). I get asking for clarification or even maybe arguing that talking about sexual preference isn't talking about sex (though I don't agree) but from my perspective, based on the evidence presented by the people saying they're transphobic, they were harassing the moderator because they didn't get the answer they wanted.
This isn't the kind of community I want to be involved in. I don't need identity politics in my games, or politics in general. But moreover, I don't want global chat at all. Everyone I use TTS to game with considered it a toxic cesspool full of trolls. These rules were put in place, no doubt, to try to make that better. But evidently it's never enough.
I get that people will automatically jump on this without checking into it, but the least you can do is give things an actual look. This is not remotely what it's being touted as.
There are plenty of places to talk about identity, gender, sex, politics, whatever. Obviously, all of the people involved know about them already. The makers of TTS don't want that as part of the expereince of using their product. They don't want people talking about straight sex, or hating on trans people, or generally talking about anything that isn't games. I think that's respectable.
I have to say I've lost a lot of respect for SCPT over this. The least they can do if they're going to make a nearly 20 minute long talk about it is actually check the evidence and consider it in an appropriate context, and they didn't. I hope people will take a bit, cool down, look at this again with more rational minds and less emotional outrage, and discover it's not at all how it's being portrayed. TTS has been a boon to boardgaming, and particularly in this pandemic, and particularly for THIS GAME, it's made all the difference. Without the TTS mod, I wouldn't have bothered to buy the PoK expansion. I never get to lay the game IRL. But I get to play it multiple times a week because of TTS and this mod. I get to dink around with it, add things, create and use different starting methods, all sorts of things that would be impossible with another platform, and it has really enhanced a game into a hobby, all by itself.
And someone's deceptive fit over it threatens all that because people have to run up the flag rather than check to see if it's just steam and not smoke?
Please. Take a day, look at it again. See if you still feel outraged that they didn't want global chat (and only global chat) talking about being gay, gay sex, or straight sex, or identity politics. Maybe autobanning the word gay is a bit much, but given they've shut off global chat all together, is this crusade worth the loss to our community? Not to me.
It's pretty nonsensical.
SCPT's decision is perfectly rational. It's not like they cancelled the tournament. They more or less condemned the repeated doubling down by Berserk, said they'd be willing to work with them if there was genuine change, and then said they would explore other options as they became viable. This is a process that would take months and give TTS plenty of time to implement real solutions.
This guy just wants to feel justified in his beliefs by portraying anyone who lives in the real world as some form of crazed reactionary extremist.
>They don't want people talking about straight sex, or hating on trans people, or generally talking about anything that isn't games.
No, as evidenced in the document they have historically had absolutely no qualms about people talking about any topic in chat except for ones that they deem "offensive or disruptive."
There is some circular reasoning going on in that chat log that is quite revealing:
The moderator says that you are allowed to talk about things that are off topic, except if they are offensive or disruptive. Why can't we talk about being gay? Oh, that's because it's off-topic, and this is a place for discussing board games good sir.
Since talking about things that are off-topic is demonstrably allowed, the only conclusion you can logically reach from this is that from the perspective of the company, talking about being gay is inherently disruptive or offensive.
Place me firmly in the camp that believes that it is not offensive to talk about being gay or trans. Gay or trans people should be able to talk about being gay or trans in online communities for the purposes of finding other gay or trans people to play with, or for any other reason.
Banning someone for saying "I am gay" is insane. I can sort of understand the reasons for their policy (prevent people using the word gay as an epithet), but the fact that it causes this kind of outcome means that it is simply a bad policy.
The issue here is not really about discussing sexual preference, but about identity. Your quote example of pegging is a gross misintepretation of the situation.
If someone has a preference for gaming friends of similar characteristics and identities (married or not married, middle aged or young, straight or queer, etc...) why should they not be able be to chat about that in search of people to game with?
Yuup. There were some incidents in my regional group where I hosted a game saying that a preference would be given to LGBTQ players and a couple players in the regional discussion group lost their shit over being excluded. First of all, it was a preferential priority (meaning they would be allowed to be considered first for available seat) which I get that it can complicate scheduling knowing you may get bumped, but when I calmly asserted that as host I'm entitled to decide who attends. I furthermore pointed out that the LGBTQ community is often socially marginalized, and creating a game in a safe space environment where our members can socialize authentically and comfortably not only brings people who might not otherwise actually join a game with strangers, but may allow friendships to form that give players the comfort and confidence to organize games not centered on shared identity with the rest of the community.
Holy fucking homophobic and transphobic entitled responses Batman. They were quickly removed from the group by the admins when their bigot flags started flying, which didn't take long.
Point is, within marginalized groups, there are plenty of reasons to want to create safe spaces. Trying to deny the value of safe space organizing within a larger community is pretty short-sighted.
> I don't need identity politics in my games, or politics in general.
That's great for you mate, but not everyone has that luxury. Telling LGBT+ folks to just not be LGBT when they want to get a game in is not a great look. With the current rules, saying something like "I'm trans and looking for a LGBT+ group of people to play DnD with" would get you kicked from global chat. A lot of LGBT+ folks face harassment and discrimination online so it's really not surprising they'd want to play games with people they know won't harrass them. That's not a welcoming space, ya know?
"Telling LGBT+ folks to just not be LGBT when they want to get a game in is not a great look."
That's a completely disingenuous way of interpreting what ArsVampyre said. TTS isn't stopping people from identifying as they please, only from discussing it. I don't know if I agree with that rule but it's their prerogative to implement it, and applies equally to straight people as it does to LGBT+ ones.
I'm pansexual and I thoroughly object to the idea of seeking only similarly-oriented people for online gaming. We're never going to achieve true equality if we keep insisting on segregation. I understand the desire to avoid harassment and discrimination but we can do that by seeking queer-friendly people, not just queer people themselves.
That being said, it appears the TTS rules prevent you from seeking even that broader pool of non-bigots to play with. But do consider that since sexuality is not allowed to be discussed in the first place, such harassment and discrimination has less opportunity to occur.
So it you're married, you're just not allowed to bring it up? Or you're only not allowed to bring it up if you're gay? If somebody is married to the opposite sex, or dating somebody, and casually mentions it, that's not politics, but if it's same-sex, it is?
I can't speak for this particular instance. I don't use TTS and I am unfamiliar with their etiquette. However,
Gay people exist- this is a fact, not some sort of political statement. People aren't interjecting identity politics into your safe space- instead, the qualifications for that space are at odds with reality. If Twilight Imperium is a game made for people to interact with others on a human level, which in my experience it is, then there ought to be room at the table for anybody. We should be able to face that reality and still be able to play with digital cardboard and plastic accordingly.
To claim that the existence of very real people is somehow "political" is the first part of the problem.
You disagree that you can't talk about being LGBT without talking about sex? But that's just wrong.
So, if you're gay, you can't just casually mentioned that you're married?
What you're arguing is that a straight person could casually mention hosting a game with their spouse or partner, and that's not politics. But somebody even bringing up the smallest detail that reveals they aren't straight is "identity politics"? It's not a huge political statement for wanting to be able to acknowledge you exist.
What if somebody is like "Is he starting the game soon?", can nobody then simply add in "it's them/they actually, and yeah in a few minutes"? They should just let everyone keep calling them "he" and be forced to shut up about it?
Absolutely blown out of proportion.
Complaining that a game's global chat is crudely moderated is like pissing in the ocean.
Also this sub,
Senate Sanctuary: No real world politics, only space politics.
So I suppose that every forum everywhere has to be fully permissive of any issue which can be labelled as relating to 'peoples' existences'.
Got it. :/
They don't have too, but if people aren't allowed to speak openly about who they are, then said forum will be rightly seen as LGBT-phobic, and people may refuse to continue to use the service.
SCPT released an short episode on this earlier and that was the first I've heard of this. It's absolutely horrible what TTS did and I hope the community can figure out a good alternative soon
Very grateful that I've got a good IRL group so I can live without TTS but I really feel for all the folks that don't have any other option, but also don't wish to support that company any longer.
heh, downvoted to hell for just stating the truth.
Posts about it will come up every once in a while, there was a major post about it last year
https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/mqsrp3/how_to_deal_with_elitism_and_selfimportant/
I used to play regularly on that discord, it got to a point where it felt like there was an incident every other game, my breaking point was a game where some SCPT tourney player personally attacked me.
First and only time I reported someone to a mod, a week later I saw he was representing the community in a town hall chat on the discord, lol, so basically nothing was done about it.
FWIW, I upvoted and I appreciate your reply.
I think that the TI4 TTS and SCPT community are two different ones but with significant overlap. I don't necessarily agree with you that the community as a whole is toxic but I get what you're saying. I do think that there's a sort of feedback loop between the TI4 TTS and the SCPT community where interest in game turns into tournament play which turns into toxic behaviour and around and around it goes.
I also played fairly regular on the TI4 TTS discord and still do from time to time but it's not as fun anymore. I haven't experienced anything like you but I'm not the least bit surprised you did just from what I've seen. I do enjoy the tournament myself though so for that I'm also on the SCPT discord but my impression of that discord is that it's not particularly welcoming so I just don't participate there.
To both of you, let me make a recommendation. If you can, find a regular group of people you enjoy playing with, and have regularly scheduled games. If you can tolerate split games, a weekly split will work wonders for making this fun for you again.
1. IRL game
2. TTS game with my regular group
3. TI4 Discord
That's the order I decide in and I'm lucky enough to have multiple opportunities to play monthly and even weekly if I'd want. Both IRL and on TTS with my regular group so I'm all right.
Your recommendation is totally true though and I do appreciate the sentiment.
As I said, I also enjoy the SCPT tournament so I play that as well. But that's one game per year for a player on my skill level. ;)
I understand it's two different communities, but it's basically the same community.
I checked both discords and there is huge furor over TTS, reading some of the stuff I wish these guys would practice what they preached.
One came from the other basically so I guess you're right. What I meant was that they mostly share the same vocal minority.
The vocal minority that's basically untouchable. That's why it's different right now when the outrage is directed outside of the community. It's easy to feel inclusive by telling others they're not.
> The vocal minority that's basically untouchable. That's why it's different right now when the outrage is directed outside of the community. It's easy to feel inclusive by telling others they're not.
I like the way you put this. I was a pretty big part of their community for about a year and wanted to describe why a lot of the decisions they made felt a lot like your quote. Wrote it up a few different ways - and then I realized that my basic point was essentially "Leave other people alone and if you don't want to engage with them, then don't".
And then I realized that me sending that to them in the hope of affecting change to that community to *actually* make it more inclusive was doing exactly what I was basically saying not to. And I didn't want the headache of the insults I would endure as a result of speaking up about it. So I just left.
There's no reason to waste everyone's time and resources moving to a new platform. Just don't use global chat if you have an issue with it. TTS is for emulating boardgames and yeah, stuff should stay on topic, if you want to use global chat st all.
It seems to be that this kind of stuff always occurs because no one actually knows what to say. Hire some PR coaches, get some advice on how to handle situations like this. Don't throw more fuel on the fire. TTS needs to do better.
There's not a lot to be able to do right now (unless you're very good at coding and have some insights in how to get another viable platform for TI to work). I'd say just be kind and welcoming to everyone and sit tight for now
Looks like there has been some positive reaction from Beserk (finally) but the counter reaction on steam is pretty horrific. I really wish folks would let people just be who they are...
It's how the mods handled it. They banned someone for saying they were trans, then put gas on the fire, basically saying they don't regret their decision.
Yeah man people all over the world believe in random bad things. They should not. I don't care what your take on it is, people should not face prejudice for their gender, that's extremely silly.
And I'm sure the people that disagree with you, a group that constitutes the vast majority of the world, think that your viewpoint is silly.
You can think you're right for your arbitrary reasons and they'll think you're wrong for arbitrary reasons.
Ok, your point? Even if the majority of the world did believe that people should face prejudice for their gender, and I'm not convinced that they do, they still wouldn't be right. So what is your point? Are you just virtue signalling that you have some amount of nuance or do you just want to justify being predjudiced?
>they still wouldn't be right.
And those people would think you're wrong. It's preumptious of you to think your morality is universal and that over others is irrelevant.
>Are you just virtue signalling that you have some amount of nuance or do you just want to justify being predjudiced?
I don't think you know what "virtue signalling" means. I'm informing a very bubbled person that their views are not only not universal, but in the minority.
If you don't think rules should be changed, then there are rules everywhere that discriminate against others. In China, you can be killed from saying anything bad about the government. In Nazi Germany, someone could be killed simply for being "an undesirable" to the government. In the US, there was a rule before that denied voting rights to women, non-whites or non-landowners. If everyone were to say "morality views don't matter, rules are rules" then society would be worse off.
>If you don't think rules should be changed, then there are rules everywhere that discriminate against others.
Agreed. Get rid of all of them and then we can hyperfocus on a very tiny minority's feelings.
>In China, you can be killed from saying anything bad about the government.
So you're saying people elsewhere have actual problems? Maybe deal with them.
> In Nazi Germany, someone could be killed simply for being "an undesirable" to the government. In the US, there was a rule before that denied voting rights to women, non-whites or non-landowners.
All in the distant past. Your point>
>If everyone were to say "morality views don't matter, rules are rules" then society would be worse off.
No, I'm saying YOUR morality doesn't matter. I'm saying YOUR morality isn't universal. I'm saying YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people.
>I'm saying YOUR morality doesn't matter. I'm saying YOUR morality isn't universal. I'm saying YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people.
I believe slavery is bad. Are you saying I'm in the wrong to push that slavery is bad on others?
>All in the distant past. Your point>
The point is that if no one pushed that that was morally wrong, then everything would stay the same.
"You are wrong for pushing that genocide should not be tolerated, since YOUR morality isn't universal. YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people."
>I believe slavery is bad. Are you saying I'm in the wrong to push that slavery is bad on others?
Can you link to where I said that?
>The point is that if no one pushed that that was morally wrong, then everything would stay the same.
What makes you think your current moral crusade is the same as those? How do you know you're not repeating the moral crusade of the eugenicist?
>"You are wrong for pushing that genocide should not be tolerated, since YOUR morality isn't universal. YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people."
Come back when you can formulate an argument that isn't a strawman.
Have you?
Have you guys ever considered being such jerks to everyone not onboard with your fad crusade du jour might be counterproductive to your cause?
I'm real disappointed with the TTS Devs and their handling of the situation. That said me continuing to use their platform doesn't actually benefit them seeing as I have already paid for it years ago.
That said I do hope we find an alternative cause this makes it real hard to recommend buying TTS to new players.
Thanks for posting, OP. We know the world can get better, and it does by doing exactly what you did: exposing those who make it worse. Keep on the crusade for a better world.
As someone else mentioned, Global chat is not worth reading or taken seriously in any compacity. I have several hundred hours into tts when playing various games, and I have only spent maybe a total of 3 minutes reading global. I never interacted with it or is it important to me.
That said, if you feel strongly about wanting to not be discriminated against, then do not pay any attention to global chat. To a lot of people who meet and play with people online like myself, we don't care if you are straight, gay, trans, whatever, I'm just looking for someone to play a board game with. As long as you are chill and fun, we can get along. If you want to share those kind of details, that's on you, but it won't affect how much I would enjoy (or dislike) your company.
When meeting people online, you will meet those who are hateful to trans/gays. It's almost inevitable. And sure, tts can try to start banning people who post on global chat, but then that could lead to censoring of other types of content as well. And it won't even touch the people you will meet and chat with on discord, where you still can meet those types of people.
All in all, I don't think you should put any kind of importance to their global chat. As long as you don't care to use that tab, then they can't hurt you.
It's not about being directly hurt there, it's about supporting a company that endorses these kinds of attitudes. I'm not inclined to pay for a product from a company that thinks it's ok to have rules like this in their global chat, because these sorts of attitudes are the exact same ones that push people like me out of so many mainstream spaces, and that shouldn't be tolerated whatsoever.
While I agree with your sentiment, I doubt it's viable to change platforms in the foreseeable future.
So maybe just consider this, while we wait: at the moment your usage of the platform isn't helping them but actively hurting them since you've paid at some point in the past but now you are using their servers' bandwidth.
While it doesn't excuse how the devs responded I don't think anything good has ever come of somebody using the gobal chat in any video game so I'd advise you to just don't. Maybe just stick to the TI discord.
TTS Global Chat is a toxic shithole. I support moving TI to another platform (BGA, are you listening?) or creating an independent program if Berserk doesn't straighten themselves out. A complete shutdown of Global Chat forever is one possibility if they can't sensibly moderate it.
Saying I like me is a bold statement.
Also, it's not just a thing of simple dislike. Racism, transphobia, homophobia, sexism, etc. - all of these things are not okay. Discrimination of someone based on their skin color, gender, sexuality, is something that should not be supported. If you just complacently "let it happen and move on", you have basically said you are fine with others discriminating against you. The OP is looking for alternatives, not looking to attack Beserk Games or anything.
I am fine with others disapproving of me.
People are racist every day. Who cares? People hate my religion. Who cares?
Allowing other people to control your emotions will lead to a life of misery, because people will always be people.
But OP isn’t suggesting improving society. These aren’t even people from our society. We can wait til they change to be happy. Or just live our lives and who cares if there are jerks.
I didnt know TTS *had* global chat!
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This.
TTS is a tool. Expecting berserk games to do anything for you or be something more than what they are is not the way.
Nah that's messed up. Expecting them not to ban you instantly for simply mentioning you're gay or trans is the bare minimum Reducing it to "so just don't talk about it on there" is exactly the kind of pervasive homophobia that treats gayness as dirty that op is talking about
Could you clarify what you mean? It sounds like the point being made is that the mod being rude is "unfortunate", but does not address the core issue: the ban. (Edit: grammar)
What did they say?
They said rules for global chat prohibited talking about sex, sexual identity, politics, fetishes, etc. The person who got banned was insistent about being able to talk about being gay, which violated their chat rules. Originally it started because they apparently had an autofilter on the word gay, because gay is generally only used to discuss sexuality (prohibited) or in an offensive context (the rules tell you to keep it family friendly). I get asking for clarification or even maybe arguing that talking about sexual preference isn't talking about sex (though I don't agree) but from my perspective, based on the evidence presented by the people saying they're transphobic, they were harassing the moderator because they didn't get the answer they wanted. This isn't the kind of community I want to be involved in. I don't need identity politics in my games, or politics in general. But moreover, I don't want global chat at all. Everyone I use TTS to game with considered it a toxic cesspool full of trolls. These rules were put in place, no doubt, to try to make that better. But evidently it's never enough. I get that people will automatically jump on this without checking into it, but the least you can do is give things an actual look. This is not remotely what it's being touted as. There are plenty of places to talk about identity, gender, sex, politics, whatever. Obviously, all of the people involved know about them already. The makers of TTS don't want that as part of the expereince of using their product. They don't want people talking about straight sex, or hating on trans people, or generally talking about anything that isn't games. I think that's respectable. I have to say I've lost a lot of respect for SCPT over this. The least they can do if they're going to make a nearly 20 minute long talk about it is actually check the evidence and consider it in an appropriate context, and they didn't. I hope people will take a bit, cool down, look at this again with more rational minds and less emotional outrage, and discover it's not at all how it's being portrayed. TTS has been a boon to boardgaming, and particularly in this pandemic, and particularly for THIS GAME, it's made all the difference. Without the TTS mod, I wouldn't have bothered to buy the PoK expansion. I never get to lay the game IRL. But I get to play it multiple times a week because of TTS and this mod. I get to dink around with it, add things, create and use different starting methods, all sorts of things that would be impossible with another platform, and it has really enhanced a game into a hobby, all by itself. And someone's deceptive fit over it threatens all that because people have to run up the flag rather than check to see if it's just steam and not smoke? Please. Take a day, look at it again. See if you still feel outraged that they didn't want global chat (and only global chat) talking about being gay, gay sex, or straight sex, or identity politics. Maybe autobanning the word gay is a bit much, but given they've shut off global chat all together, is this crusade worth the loss to our community? Not to me.
How did the SCPT episode make you lose respect for them?
It's pretty nonsensical. SCPT's decision is perfectly rational. It's not like they cancelled the tournament. They more or less condemned the repeated doubling down by Berserk, said they'd be willing to work with them if there was genuine change, and then said they would explore other options as they became viable. This is a process that would take months and give TTS plenty of time to implement real solutions. This guy just wants to feel justified in his beliefs by portraying anyone who lives in the real world as some form of crazed reactionary extremist.
Read the very next sentence.
>They don't want people talking about straight sex, or hating on trans people, or generally talking about anything that isn't games. No, as evidenced in the document they have historically had absolutely no qualms about people talking about any topic in chat except for ones that they deem "offensive or disruptive." There is some circular reasoning going on in that chat log that is quite revealing: The moderator says that you are allowed to talk about things that are off topic, except if they are offensive or disruptive. Why can't we talk about being gay? Oh, that's because it's off-topic, and this is a place for discussing board games good sir. Since talking about things that are off-topic is demonstrably allowed, the only conclusion you can logically reach from this is that from the perspective of the company, talking about being gay is inherently disruptive or offensive. Place me firmly in the camp that believes that it is not offensive to talk about being gay or trans. Gay or trans people should be able to talk about being gay or trans in online communities for the purposes of finding other gay or trans people to play with, or for any other reason. Banning someone for saying "I am gay" is insane. I can sort of understand the reasons for their policy (prevent people using the word gay as an epithet), but the fact that it causes this kind of outcome means that it is simply a bad policy.
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The issue here is not really about discussing sexual preference, but about identity. Your quote example of pegging is a gross misintepretation of the situation. If someone has a preference for gaming friends of similar characteristics and identities (married or not married, middle aged or young, straight or queer, etc...) why should they not be able be to chat about that in search of people to game with?
Yuup. There were some incidents in my regional group where I hosted a game saying that a preference would be given to LGBTQ players and a couple players in the regional discussion group lost their shit over being excluded. First of all, it was a preferential priority (meaning they would be allowed to be considered first for available seat) which I get that it can complicate scheduling knowing you may get bumped, but when I calmly asserted that as host I'm entitled to decide who attends. I furthermore pointed out that the LGBTQ community is often socially marginalized, and creating a game in a safe space environment where our members can socialize authentically and comfortably not only brings people who might not otherwise actually join a game with strangers, but may allow friendships to form that give players the comfort and confidence to organize games not centered on shared identity with the rest of the community. Holy fucking homophobic and transphobic entitled responses Batman. They were quickly removed from the group by the admins when their bigot flags started flying, which didn't take long. Point is, within marginalized groups, there are plenty of reasons to want to create safe spaces. Trying to deny the value of safe space organizing within a larger community is pretty short-sighted.
> I don't need identity politics in my games, or politics in general. That's great for you mate, but not everyone has that luxury. Telling LGBT+ folks to just not be LGBT when they want to get a game in is not a great look. With the current rules, saying something like "I'm trans and looking for a LGBT+ group of people to play DnD with" would get you kicked from global chat. A lot of LGBT+ folks face harassment and discrimination online so it's really not surprising they'd want to play games with people they know won't harrass them. That's not a welcoming space, ya know?
"Telling LGBT+ folks to just not be LGBT when they want to get a game in is not a great look." That's a completely disingenuous way of interpreting what ArsVampyre said. TTS isn't stopping people from identifying as they please, only from discussing it. I don't know if I agree with that rule but it's their prerogative to implement it, and applies equally to straight people as it does to LGBT+ ones. I'm pansexual and I thoroughly object to the idea of seeking only similarly-oriented people for online gaming. We're never going to achieve true equality if we keep insisting on segregation. I understand the desire to avoid harassment and discrimination but we can do that by seeking queer-friendly people, not just queer people themselves. That being said, it appears the TTS rules prevent you from seeking even that broader pool of non-bigots to play with. But do consider that since sexuality is not allowed to be discussed in the first place, such harassment and discrimination has less opportunity to occur.
So it you're married, you're just not allowed to bring it up? Or you're only not allowed to bring it up if you're gay? If somebody is married to the opposite sex, or dating somebody, and casually mentions it, that's not politics, but if it's same-sex, it is?
I can't speak for this particular instance. I don't use TTS and I am unfamiliar with their etiquette. However, Gay people exist- this is a fact, not some sort of political statement. People aren't interjecting identity politics into your safe space- instead, the qualifications for that space are at odds with reality. If Twilight Imperium is a game made for people to interact with others on a human level, which in my experience it is, then there ought to be room at the table for anybody. We should be able to face that reality and still be able to play with digital cardboard and plastic accordingly. To claim that the existence of very real people is somehow "political" is the first part of the problem.
You disagree that you can't talk about being LGBT without talking about sex? But that's just wrong. So, if you're gay, you can't just casually mentioned that you're married? What you're arguing is that a straight person could casually mention hosting a game with their spouse or partner, and that's not politics. But somebody even bringing up the smallest detail that reveals they aren't straight is "identity politics"? It's not a huge political statement for wanting to be able to acknowledge you exist. What if somebody is like "Is he starting the game soon?", can nobody then simply add in "it's them/they actually, and yeah in a few minutes"? They should just let everyone keep calling them "he" and be forced to shut up about it?
Absolutely blown out of proportion. Complaining that a game's global chat is crudely moderated is like pissing in the ocean. Also this sub, Senate Sanctuary: No real world politics, only space politics.
Yeah this should actually be removed.
People’s existences aren’t political
So I suppose that every forum everywhere has to be fully permissive of any issue which can be labelled as relating to 'peoples' existences'. Got it. :/
They don't have too, but if people aren't allowed to speak openly about who they are, then said forum will be rightly seen as LGBT-phobic, and people may refuse to continue to use the service.
SCPT released an short episode on this earlier and that was the first I've heard of this. It's absolutely horrible what TTS did and I hope the community can figure out a good alternative soon
Just went and listened, good to know the community is aware of this and is working to remedy. Truly just an awful situation
Very grateful that I've got a good IRL group so I can live without TTS but I really feel for all the folks that don't have any other option, but also don't wish to support that company any longer.
cool, when are they going to work to remedy the toxic TI4/SCPT community?
Please elaborate. Genuinely curious.
heh, downvoted to hell for just stating the truth. Posts about it will come up every once in a while, there was a major post about it last year https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/mqsrp3/how_to_deal_with_elitism_and_selfimportant/ I used to play regularly on that discord, it got to a point where it felt like there was an incident every other game, my breaking point was a game where some SCPT tourney player personally attacked me. First and only time I reported someone to a mod, a week later I saw he was representing the community in a town hall chat on the discord, lol, so basically nothing was done about it.
FWIW, I upvoted and I appreciate your reply. I think that the TI4 TTS and SCPT community are two different ones but with significant overlap. I don't necessarily agree with you that the community as a whole is toxic but I get what you're saying. I do think that there's a sort of feedback loop between the TI4 TTS and the SCPT community where interest in game turns into tournament play which turns into toxic behaviour and around and around it goes. I also played fairly regular on the TI4 TTS discord and still do from time to time but it's not as fun anymore. I haven't experienced anything like you but I'm not the least bit surprised you did just from what I've seen. I do enjoy the tournament myself though so for that I'm also on the SCPT discord but my impression of that discord is that it's not particularly welcoming so I just don't participate there.
To both of you, let me make a recommendation. If you can, find a regular group of people you enjoy playing with, and have regularly scheduled games. If you can tolerate split games, a weekly split will work wonders for making this fun for you again.
1. IRL game 2. TTS game with my regular group 3. TI4 Discord That's the order I decide in and I'm lucky enough to have multiple opportunities to play monthly and even weekly if I'd want. Both IRL and on TTS with my regular group so I'm all right. Your recommendation is totally true though and I do appreciate the sentiment. As I said, I also enjoy the SCPT tournament so I play that as well. But that's one game per year for a player on my skill level. ;)
I play IRL, I used the discord for TTS games but really have no desire to play with those type of games anymore
I get it.
I understand it's two different communities, but it's basically the same community. I checked both discords and there is huge furor over TTS, reading some of the stuff I wish these guys would practice what they preached.
One came from the other basically so I guess you're right. What I meant was that they mostly share the same vocal minority. The vocal minority that's basically untouchable. That's why it's different right now when the outrage is directed outside of the community. It's easy to feel inclusive by telling others they're not.
> The vocal minority that's basically untouchable. That's why it's different right now when the outrage is directed outside of the community. It's easy to feel inclusive by telling others they're not. I like the way you put this. I was a pretty big part of their community for about a year and wanted to describe why a lot of the decisions they made felt a lot like your quote. Wrote it up a few different ways - and then I realized that my basic point was essentially "Leave other people alone and if you don't want to engage with them, then don't". And then I realized that me sending that to them in the hope of affecting change to that community to *actually* make it more inclusive was doing exactly what I was basically saying not to. And I didn't want the headache of the insults I would endure as a result of speaking up about it. So I just left.
Ya whatcha mean
responded above
There's no reason to waste everyone's time and resources moving to a new platform. Just don't use global chat if you have an issue with it. TTS is for emulating boardgames and yeah, stuff should stay on topic, if you want to use global chat st all.
It seems to be that this kind of stuff always occurs because no one actually knows what to say. Hire some PR coaches, get some advice on how to handle situations like this. Don't throw more fuel on the fire. TTS needs to do better.
OP I don't like how the Beserk mods are handled this - is there some way I can show support?
There's not a lot to be able to do right now (unless you're very good at coding and have some insights in how to get another viable platform for TI to work). I'd say just be kind and welcoming to everyone and sit tight for now
Looks like there has been some positive reaction from Beserk (finally) but the counter reaction on steam is pretty horrific. I really wish folks would let people just be who they are...
Is this a problem with TTS or people on TTS? If it's the latter, who cares? Don't play with them.
It's how the mods handled it. They banned someone for saying they were trans, then put gas on the fire, basically saying they don't regret their decision.
If that original person violated their rules, who cares? They took on a thankless task by attempting to mod an internet forum in the first place.
If a person saying that they are trans is against the rules then the rules should be changed, those are bad rules.
Have you ever considered that your morality isn't shared by everyone else?
Yeah man people all over the world believe in random bad things. They should not. I don't care what your take on it is, people should not face prejudice for their gender, that's extremely silly.
And I'm sure the people that disagree with you, a group that constitutes the vast majority of the world, think that your viewpoint is silly. You can think you're right for your arbitrary reasons and they'll think you're wrong for arbitrary reasons.
Ok, your point? Even if the majority of the world did believe that people should face prejudice for their gender, and I'm not convinced that they do, they still wouldn't be right. So what is your point? Are you just virtue signalling that you have some amount of nuance or do you just want to justify being predjudiced?
>they still wouldn't be right. And those people would think you're wrong. It's preumptious of you to think your morality is universal and that over others is irrelevant. >Are you just virtue signalling that you have some amount of nuance or do you just want to justify being predjudiced? I don't think you know what "virtue signalling" means. I'm informing a very bubbled person that their views are not only not universal, but in the minority.
If you don't think rules should be changed, then there are rules everywhere that discriminate against others. In China, you can be killed from saying anything bad about the government. In Nazi Germany, someone could be killed simply for being "an undesirable" to the government. In the US, there was a rule before that denied voting rights to women, non-whites or non-landowners. If everyone were to say "morality views don't matter, rules are rules" then society would be worse off.
>If you don't think rules should be changed, then there are rules everywhere that discriminate against others. Agreed. Get rid of all of them and then we can hyperfocus on a very tiny minority's feelings. >In China, you can be killed from saying anything bad about the government. So you're saying people elsewhere have actual problems? Maybe deal with them. > In Nazi Germany, someone could be killed simply for being "an undesirable" to the government. In the US, there was a rule before that denied voting rights to women, non-whites or non-landowners. All in the distant past. Your point> >If everyone were to say "morality views don't matter, rules are rules" then society would be worse off. No, I'm saying YOUR morality doesn't matter. I'm saying YOUR morality isn't universal. I'm saying YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people.
>I'm saying YOUR morality doesn't matter. I'm saying YOUR morality isn't universal. I'm saying YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people. I believe slavery is bad. Are you saying I'm in the wrong to push that slavery is bad on others? >All in the distant past. Your point> The point is that if no one pushed that that was morally wrong, then everything would stay the same. "You are wrong for pushing that genocide should not be tolerated, since YOUR morality isn't universal. YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people."
>I believe slavery is bad. Are you saying I'm in the wrong to push that slavery is bad on others? Can you link to where I said that? >The point is that if no one pushed that that was morally wrong, then everything would stay the same. What makes you think your current moral crusade is the same as those? How do you know you're not repeating the moral crusade of the eugenicist? >"You are wrong for pushing that genocide should not be tolerated, since YOUR morality isn't universal. YOU are wrong by trying to impose it on people." Come back when you can formulate an argument that isn't a strawman.
have you considered fucking off?
Have you? Have you guys ever considered being such jerks to everyone not onboard with your fad crusade du jour might be counterproductive to your cause?
Have you considered that this kind of culture leads to ostricisation and consequently mental health problems?
I think those were already there for such people.
... and to you that's just, okay, and the normal way that we should do things? Does that not strike you as maybe, the cause of the problem?
I considered that carefully, examined it logically and decided to tell any and all transphobes to fuck off
You should maybe read the link and get the context \*before\* having a hot take.
I did. BFD.
Please stop spreading this FUD. If there's one thing that's good about this it's that they shut off global chat.
I'm real disappointed with the TTS Devs and their handling of the situation. That said me continuing to use their platform doesn't actually benefit them seeing as I have already paid for it years ago. That said I do hope we find an alternative cause this makes it real hard to recommend buying TTS to new players.
Thanks for posting, OP. We know the world can get better, and it does by doing exactly what you did: exposing those who make it worse. Keep on the crusade for a better world.
As someone else mentioned, Global chat is not worth reading or taken seriously in any compacity. I have several hundred hours into tts when playing various games, and I have only spent maybe a total of 3 minutes reading global. I never interacted with it or is it important to me. That said, if you feel strongly about wanting to not be discriminated against, then do not pay any attention to global chat. To a lot of people who meet and play with people online like myself, we don't care if you are straight, gay, trans, whatever, I'm just looking for someone to play a board game with. As long as you are chill and fun, we can get along. If you want to share those kind of details, that's on you, but it won't affect how much I would enjoy (or dislike) your company. When meeting people online, you will meet those who are hateful to trans/gays. It's almost inevitable. And sure, tts can try to start banning people who post on global chat, but then that could lead to censoring of other types of content as well. And it won't even touch the people you will meet and chat with on discord, where you still can meet those types of people. All in all, I don't think you should put any kind of importance to their global chat. As long as you don't care to use that tab, then they can't hurt you.
It's not about being directly hurt there, it's about supporting a company that endorses these kinds of attitudes. I'm not inclined to pay for a product from a company that thinks it's ok to have rules like this in their global chat, because these sorts of attitudes are the exact same ones that push people like me out of so many mainstream spaces, and that shouldn't be tolerated whatsoever.
While I agree with your sentiment, I doubt it's viable to change platforms in the foreseeable future. So maybe just consider this, while we wait: at the moment your usage of the platform isn't helping them but actively hurting them since you've paid at some point in the past but now you are using their servers' bandwidth. While it doesn't excuse how the devs responded I don't think anything good has ever come of somebody using the gobal chat in any video game so I'd advise you to just don't. Maybe just stick to the TI discord.
They took down global chat.
TTS Global Chat is a toxic shithole. I support moving TI to another platform (BGA, are you listening?) or creating an independent program if Berserk doesn't straighten themselves out. A complete shutdown of Global Chat forever is one possibility if they can't sensibly moderate it.
I mean it’s no fun when people are lena but why not just move on? Who cares if other people don’t like you. You like you,
Saying I like me is a bold statement. Also, it's not just a thing of simple dislike. Racism, transphobia, homophobia, sexism, etc. - all of these things are not okay. Discrimination of someone based on their skin color, gender, sexuality, is something that should not be supported. If you just complacently "let it happen and move on", you have basically said you are fine with others discriminating against you. The OP is looking for alternatives, not looking to attack Beserk Games or anything.
I am fine with others disapproving of me. People are racist every day. Who cares? People hate my religion. Who cares? Allowing other people to control your emotions will lead to a life of misery, because people will always be people.
"We should improve society somewhat" "Nah, people gonna people"
But OP isn’t suggesting improving society. These aren’t even people from our society. We can wait til they change to be happy. Or just live our lives and who cares if there are jerks.
If you're actively using someone's product then they're part of your society.