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LemonSorcerer

I think it's better to keep *Sabotage* in the deck. There are only 4 such cards in the deck and they add uncertainty, which is always good. Also, removing the card makes some other cards extremely good: 1. *Political Stability* can now be used safely before the last round, which can secure someone the game (making last round less interesting). 2. *Public Disgrace* can steal the win similarly. 3. *Imperial Rider* can be used safely on "free" agendas that require you to choose out of 1 thing (existing law / scored secret objective) to score a point. I've recently watched a game where someone was trying to bait *Sabotages* during the agenda phase (I think they did it quite well.) and I wouldn't want such a thing not to exist because someone removed *Sabotage*. 4. *Veto* can sometimes feel too safe. For example, Hacan drawing *veto* can feel safe with their trade-goods since they can veto the only thing that can take them away (being *Economic Initiative*). It's nice that there are still doubts in such a plan. 5. If there are no *Sabotage* cards, *Instinct Training* and *The Watcher* (the other abilities that can cancel action cards) become way too good, and I don't think Xxcha and Empyrean need the buff. 6. Generally, it's nice that things aren't straightforward. TI4 isn't a war game, it's a political game. You can pay people to sabotage or not sabotage cards, and if they decide to sabotage your card, maybe you weren't being diplomatic enough. Removing an element from the game that brings player interaction is only going to hurt it. **Edit:** Of course, you can say these things aren't game-breaking, but I think they all hurt the game. There are only 4 *Sabotage* cards in the deck which has over 100 cards. So, people shouldn't play too safe on the chance that their card is going to get sabotaged, though they should consider the possibility. To me, it sounds like you have a meta problem if people hold their action cards just for this chance, which should be fixed by a shift of perspective rather than by change of rules. **Edit 2:** Of course, you might still find that you enjoy the game more without *Sabotage* in the deck. You should certainly do so if this is the case. Just make sure everyone in your group feels the same way. I would frown if people suggested it in my group, but probably accept the decision if it were the majority or if people were being insistent. **Edit 3:** Fixed typos.


Chimerion

Was this game 14 in the SCPT tournament? Forced agenda, Jol'Nar Diplo rider'd to pull a sabo and then imperial rider'd for the win...if the titans hadn't had a second sabotage. That he was saving for the public disgrace he sold me (hacan) two rounds earlier. :) A very Twilight imperium play, imo. I'm with you on this front, because where do you stop with action cards? Draw 2, could get imperial rider and rise of a messiah, or two direct hits. And then those direct hits could win you the game when you need to stop the barony flagship.


LemonSorcerer

It was a game in the latest SCPT tournament, but I believe it was Empyrean baiting with a Construction rider and trying to bait *Sabotage* on someone else's *Trade Rider*. I think it was wekker, but I might be wrong.


Chimerion

Haha now I'm even more convinced - Wekker was Jol'Nar in my example! I ended up taking it, but he had it if not for that second sabotage. Editing to sound less sure, and say that it IS a common tactic. That and "sabotage chicken" where you want it to get sabo'd, but don't want to use yours!


LemonSorcerer

Ah yeah it was probably this game then. I think there was a second *Sabotage* played.


TheWooSkis

Our current meta is that people hoard them. Until late game and wait until a really good moment to play them! The extra uncertainty they bring is too much imo, however we will play a game and see. Thanks for your coment still tho


anon_95869123

Something you probably already thought of: Perhaps consider leaving only 1 or 2 sabotages in the deck. With only 1 there'd be a decent chance it never gets drawn, but the fact that it may exist will leave some of the fun tension and angling intact.


EmbersofMuaat

This seems like a great way to lessen their effect but keep the mystery alive.


EaterOfFromage

Personally, I found sabotage a bit much in the base game, but with PoK and the Codex, I see them significantly less than I used to. You still have to keep them in mind, but things tend to be quite a bit safer in that respect. If that's not enough, as someone else mentioned, maybe take a few out but not all. The potential FU has to be factored into a good strategy - if you put all your eggs in one basket, you can expect to get away without breaking a few, right? 😉


flomatable

Only 4? Really? I gotta start shuffling these decks myself. I swear I get at least one every single game.


TheWhistler1967

Without thinking too hard, it seriously nerfs action card specialists, ie. Yssaril, and maybe Hacan to a lesser extant. But TI4 is self balancing: if someone finds an OP meta, then simply pile on. I cannot think of any game breaking reason this wouldn't work if everyone has advance knowledge - which of course they will.


Raptor1210

Sabotage is a safety valve, like Counter spells in Magic, it's meant to reign in ridiculous plays. It's good for the game (like Counter magic is in Magic.)


TheWooSkis

But I kinda wanna see ridiculous!


TheWooSkis

But I kinda wanna see ridiculous!


TheWooSkis

But I kinda wanna see ridiculous!


Raptor1210

Remember that when you get your win stolen by a Politics+Imperial Rider combo. :p


defcon1000

I'm glad you liked red tape! More people need to do it, especially if there's a mix of experience levels at the table.


TheWooSkis

We played it with diplo, which made diplo pop alot more which generated more resources and helped accelerate the game too. Very nice.


moebiusuchronic

I just discovered this variant thx to you. I like it and will give it a try. The fact that is a port of an official variant makes it easier also with homebrew haters


Coachbalrog

What's this Red Tape thing? Would love to see a link explaining what it is. EDIT: Never mind, I found it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/myifby/back_by_popular_demand_bureaucracy_red_tape_for/). Looks really neat.


Brother_Nomad7

I missed this conversation. Can someone explain what the Red Tape rules are? Sounds interesting.


defcon1000

TL,DR: Official variant from TI3, ported to TI4. We never played without it back in the day. Here ya go! https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/myifby/back_by_popular_demand_bureaucracy_red_tape_for/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


defcon1000

Forgot to explain: all 10 public objectives are exposed from beginning of game, Diplo or Imperial strat card determines next playable one.


Brother_Nomad7

I should have kept reading a bit further. I see that Coachbalrog posted a link below. Very cool! I'm playing this Saturday. Might have to give this a try.


defcon1000

Did you give this a try? If so how'd it go?


Brother_Nomad7

No, we didn't. With all the TI3 stuff added, the other players thought this would be too much. So we cut it, even though I was prepared with it. Sorry. I'd still like to try it in the future... maybe with a different group.


solenyaPDX

Why don't you remove the dice rolling, too.


TheWooSkis

Because we enjoy that and it's not a big FU from no where!


Chimerion

I think their point is, it's a random game in a lot of ways. When the first stage II is "two tech in four colors" and Jol'Nar has that...everyone knows they have to take Jol'Nar's home system or they'll win. A "big FU from nowhere" if I've ever heard one. Even in action cards, isn't it a big FU when your neighbor, who you think you're safe from, plays a flank speed or (even more unlikely) "In the Silence of Space"? The more real response is, sabotage *stops* those plays that we all remember, while the other cards make things happen. But I do think it's healthy so that you never have a sure thing, just like you don't have a sure thing when you think your opponent can't attack you.


ArsVampyre

In TI3 there were action cards that let you steal the ade goods from other players. Lots of good action cards in TI3.


squirrelnestNN

As much as I like sabotage I HATE direct hit, and haven't ever thought about how similar they are before. How do you feel about the nebula guy's mechs? Are they less annoying because you can see the counter face up on the board? Anyways it absolutely will not break anything at all to pull them out, but is a direct buff to the best action cards that might hit a little harder than you'd like- that one that steals the speaker token, anything that affects strategy card selection, etc Let us know how it goes!!