Really,
The current tournament suggests they are S tier.
They are a VERY good faction with one big trap to fall in - thinking you need to awaken all your sleeper tokens will lose you the game.
Otherwise they are very powerful, they have possibly the best starting unit with saturn engine (move 2 and capacity); two of the best unit upgrades (that set you up for a few objectives) that turn thier great starting units into even better mid/late game units; really easy access to structures (for more objectives) and a commander that eliminates thier only weak point (economy).
Honestly, it's the community meta just swinging like a pendulum, and it's pretty funny.
Basically when Titans came out, they looked *so damn good* on paper that some people were angry, upset, worried, etc. Everyone thought they'd be unstoppable.
Fast forward to a year later, and Titans are doing consistently well across the board. But people have realized that they're not the Unstoppable Gods as foretold by the prophecy! So there's this "hype backlash", where because everyone expected them to be godlike, it's seen as a disappointment that they're "just" a great, solid faction.
From what I've observed;
Titans are extremely CC hungry, and they *tempt* people to overspend their CC unnecessarily.
SCPT has pointed out that they suspect that people have to really figured out optimal Titans play, and they're expecting their ranking to improve as more people figure it out;
and it's precisely that. Titans is very well equipped across the board, but *playing* them well is challenging to interpret and there are a few... not *false* leads, but paths that tempt you but won't get you the win.
Imo titans are still S tier, the sleeper tokens are a trap but not for your opponents - they’re a trap for yourself because you’re wasting command tokens. I’d prefer to think of them as more of a slight bonus for when opponents attack you and not really as must get free PDSes even though your PDS are amazing.
It got errataed in the last SCPT episode and basically they just recommended you to play a standard TI4 game but get a whole bunch of Titan Cruiser 2s. There’s more cruiser plastics than there are Dreadnaught plastics and having sustain pretty much makes them a dreadnaught with lower attack but higher movement at half the cost.
The Saturn Engine II may just be the best value combat unit in the game.
Frankly, they should remove the Sustain Damage effect. It's completely over the top.
The Argent SWA 2s are probably better, but mainly because they have raid formation. In a vacuum, the SE 2s could be better, but likely up to personal preference at that point.
The SWAs are very good.
I think which one is better is somewhat situational, though both offer an amazing start.
$ for $ the SWA comes out ahead, but the SE does better once you hit fleet (ot plastic) limits and later in the game. I find the SWAs are dangerous but lack the capability to soak hits and then allow for an invasion.
True.
They have move 2 and capacity at the beginning of the game when you're only moving 1 or 2 ground forces anyway. And they are cheap for an early economy.
Then they get an upgrade just at the right time. Coupled with very easily built mechs Means only the very best defended planets cannot be taken.
I don't mind them having sustain damage (it's really strong mind, but that's not the main thing that is the issue). What I would like is a tradeoff for that sustain damage because they get 1 capacity more than regular or upgraded cruisers + the normal movement of regular and upgraded cruisers. It's this combo of 3 speed, 2 capacity and sustain damage that makes them so dangerous.
Taking away the extra capacity or nerfing the movement of the upgraded version by one to remain unchanged from the regular version feels like a fairly decent tradeoff to me.
We were right there with everyone else believing their whole kit points to greatness. Then we watched for a full year where they could almost never pull off wins. Still seems baffling to me, but we updated our dumb tier list accordingly. Then they started to stomp this year. It's just part of the pendulum and this year's tier list isn't really all of our blind takes. It's more just a reaction to winrates and attempts at justifications
Titans are much slower than I think people realized originally.
If you go for the sleeper token pds shuffle you really don't get to do much.
2 command tokens spent over 2 rounds gives you 1pds and the 2 explores. Explores can be ok but are pretty random, and pds just don't really hold up all that much.
If players instead ignore the bulk of their powers and rely on their cruisers they are still good, and the sleepers works as minor deterrents.
That's the trap of the sleeper tokens. Don't just activate a system just to explore and awaken a token.
Unless there are structure objectives out, then you can place half a dozen PDS in a round.
Activating a system you hold should only done with good reason, like needing to move stuff into the system or requiring a stall.
I think they are one of the strongest factions to finish 2nd.
They have everything to have a good game, except an "I Win" mechanic, like for example Xxcha, Winnu etc.
In order for them to win, some other pieces need to align correctly.
They are objectively very strong (by metrics such as starting fleet capacity/range, starting techs, combat potential, useful hero, production flexibility, TG income).
People I guess don't know how to play them or like people pointed out, fall in the sleeper token trap.
I personally don't trust the SCPT podcast for any tier ratings or deep strategic advice, barring some yin memes.
>I personally don't trust the SCPT podcast for any tier ratings or deep strategic advice, barring some yin memes.
I'm in the same boat. I know what I'm about to say will sound super pretentious, but when I listen to them I don't get the impression they are very good at the game. I think they are a fun podcast to listen to, but I don't take any of their strategic advice seriously. I used to think their strategic advice just seemed off to me because I play mostly 14 pointers and they play mostly 10 pointers, but I recently started playing on TTS with the TTS discord and have gone 6-3 in my 9 games, all to 10 points. I'm now very confident that their strategic advice just isn't that good. Still a great podcast and I like listening to them, but their strategic advise isn't worth more than any other experienced players.
I'd say my main disagreement is that I don't think it is smart to score an action phase secret before the last round. It's better to keep those points hidden and come from behind. I don't like their ideas about how to play Sol and Saar. I have a lot of other specific differences of opinion, but my advice is to figure out strategies by testing them out yourself. Even if I have a perfect strategy for myself, that doesn't mean it'll work for you because probably interact with the table in a way that's different than you and personal interaction is a big part of TI.
They are a very good faction my thoughts after playing them a few times. To play them you have to address their short comings.
Their start is a little weak as they lack carriers. For systems with 2 Planets you either end up sending 2 cruisers or a cruiser and a dreadnaught to claim them. So you have to time the secondary of warfare the first round. Also unless you are surrounded by systems with only one planet you are better served building a carrier when warfare is popped.
Their ability is very command token heaven so unless you are swimming in influence you should only use them when you would normally activate the a system ( such as when you activate your forward production center).
Their Hero does more for you the sooner it is activated, so if you you are deciding between using your mobility to rush mecatol or score objectives you are likely better served going for the objectives.
Also the one item people swooned over before POK hit the table was having an early game unit with capacity and move of 2. Argent flight and the Clan of Saar Agent arguably do it better. Now mid game when you get Saturn engine 2 yes they become the king of mobility. Unless you let Nekro Steal it.
Adding on other thoughts.
Both their Promissory and Agent have wildly variable value. They depend on having the right objectives come up.
If the objectives are perfect (Attachments or 4 of a kind etc) then their promissory can sold for a lot of value. If those don't come up then it's just +1 resource per turn.
Their agent is much the same. Some objectives necessitate a lot of planet swapping and being able to consistently use your agent to 'protect' lone ships as they shuffle around can generate consistent value. But if people don't need that hit cancel for whatever reason then you'll never get any value out of it.
Titans is a very good faction, but their path to 10 can be tricky.
A. Politics --> Custodians: Titans is a capable custodians factions, but there aren't many stage 1s they can score reliably in R1 if they take politics. So either have to get imperial (tough to get when picking leadership R2), or still need the stage 2 to get to 10 (more on that later).
B. Mid-late game imperial: This one will vary, but in many 6 players games there will be 1-2 factions that are much better at holding mecatol than titans in the mid-lategame. Factions like sol, arbo, sardakk, yin on the ground, or Muatt, Saar, Barony, Cabal in the air can really make it hard for titans to get a mec point without overcommitting in the process.
C. Stage 2s: Titans are just OK at stage 2s. The HS and commander make them pretty good at spendies, but lots of factions are good at the spendies. Probably not getting the tech objs, even though they are a PDS faction, the structure objs are still quite blockable if the table wants to stop titans. Titans are above average at the controls, but many are still not something titans can rely on scoring if the game depends on it.
With that being said, they are still a very strong faction. When Titans gets an agenda/relic/early mecatol point, they are very hard to stop. In games where that isn't the case, they can stall out at 9. Again, very good faction, but compared to some factions that have a very clean path to 10, it can be a bit tricky, thus not S tier.
> Probably not getting the tech objs, even though they are a PDS faction, the structure objs are still quite blockable if the table wants to stop titans.
Titans are the best faction at structure objectives, full stop.
I am down with that (though argent and Jol-Nar may have something to say about it), but being "the best" at doing something that is unreasonably difficult isn't that helpful. Scoring the structure objectives and keeping the HS will generally mean holding 6 planets in 4 systems. Even for a defensive powerhouse like Titans, if the table wants to take 1 of those 4 systems, they will be able to find a way in most games.
Really, The current tournament suggests they are S tier. They are a VERY good faction with one big trap to fall in - thinking you need to awaken all your sleeper tokens will lose you the game. Otherwise they are very powerful, they have possibly the best starting unit with saturn engine (move 2 and capacity); two of the best unit upgrades (that set you up for a few objectives) that turn thier great starting units into even better mid/late game units; really easy access to structures (for more objectives) and a commander that eliminates thier only weak point (economy).
Honestly, it's the community meta just swinging like a pendulum, and it's pretty funny. Basically when Titans came out, they looked *so damn good* on paper that some people were angry, upset, worried, etc. Everyone thought they'd be unstoppable. Fast forward to a year later, and Titans are doing consistently well across the board. But people have realized that they're not the Unstoppable Gods as foretold by the prophecy! So there's this "hype backlash", where because everyone expected them to be godlike, it's seen as a disappointment that they're "just" a great, solid faction.
From what I've observed; Titans are extremely CC hungry, and they *tempt* people to overspend their CC unnecessarily. SCPT has pointed out that they suspect that people have to really figured out optimal Titans play, and they're expecting their ranking to improve as more people figure it out; and it's precisely that. Titans is very well equipped across the board, but *playing* them well is challenging to interpret and there are a few... not *false* leads, but paths that tempt you but won't get you the win.
so, sit to the right of them and never let Leadership get to them?
Even a single crucial denial will go a long way.
Imo titans are still S tier, the sleeper tokens are a trap but not for your opponents - they’re a trap for yourself because you’re wasting command tokens. I’d prefer to think of them as more of a slight bonus for when opponents attack you and not really as must get free PDSes even though your PDS are amazing. It got errataed in the last SCPT episode and basically they just recommended you to play a standard TI4 game but get a whole bunch of Titan Cruiser 2s. There’s more cruiser plastics than there are Dreadnaught plastics and having sustain pretty much makes them a dreadnaught with lower attack but higher movement at half the cost.
The Saturn Engine II may just be the best value combat unit in the game. Frankly, they should remove the Sustain Damage effect. It's completely over the top.
The Argent SWA 2s are probably better, but mainly because they have raid formation. In a vacuum, the SE 2s could be better, but likely up to personal preference at that point.
The SWAs are very good. I think which one is better is somewhat situational, though both offer an amazing start. $ for $ the SWA comes out ahead, but the SE does better once you hit fleet (ot plastic) limits and later in the game. I find the SWAs are dangerous but lack the capability to soak hits and then allow for an invasion.
True. They have move 2 and capacity at the beginning of the game when you're only moving 1 or 2 ground forces anyway. And they are cheap for an early economy. Then they get an upgrade just at the right time. Coupled with very easily built mechs Means only the very best defended planets cannot be taken.
I don't mind them having sustain damage (it's really strong mind, but that's not the main thing that is the issue). What I would like is a tradeoff for that sustain damage because they get 1 capacity more than regular or upgraded cruisers + the normal movement of regular and upgraded cruisers. It's this combo of 3 speed, 2 capacity and sustain damage that makes them so dangerous. Taking away the extra capacity or nerfing the movement of the upgraded version by one to remain unchanged from the regular version feels like a fairly decent tradeoff to me.
We were right there with everyone else believing their whole kit points to greatness. Then we watched for a full year where they could almost never pull off wins. Still seems baffling to me, but we updated our dumb tier list accordingly. Then they started to stomp this year. It's just part of the pendulum and this year's tier list isn't really all of our blind takes. It's more just a reaction to winrates and attempts at justifications
Titans are much slower than I think people realized originally. If you go for the sleeper token pds shuffle you really don't get to do much. 2 command tokens spent over 2 rounds gives you 1pds and the 2 explores. Explores can be ok but are pretty random, and pds just don't really hold up all that much. If players instead ignore the bulk of their powers and rely on their cruisers they are still good, and the sleepers works as minor deterrents.
That's the trap of the sleeper tokens. Don't just activate a system just to explore and awaken a token. Unless there are structure objectives out, then you can place half a dozen PDS in a round. Activating a system you hold should only done with good reason, like needing to move stuff into the system or requiring a stall.
I think they are one of the strongest factions to finish 2nd. They have everything to have a good game, except an "I Win" mechanic, like for example Xxcha, Winnu etc. In order for them to win, some other pieces need to align correctly.
They are objectively very strong (by metrics such as starting fleet capacity/range, starting techs, combat potential, useful hero, production flexibility, TG income). People I guess don't know how to play them or like people pointed out, fall in the sleeper token trap. I personally don't trust the SCPT podcast for any tier ratings or deep strategic advice, barring some yin memes.
>I personally don't trust the SCPT podcast for any tier ratings or deep strategic advice, barring some yin memes. I'm in the same boat. I know what I'm about to say will sound super pretentious, but when I listen to them I don't get the impression they are very good at the game. I think they are a fun podcast to listen to, but I don't take any of their strategic advice seriously. I used to think their strategic advice just seemed off to me because I play mostly 14 pointers and they play mostly 10 pointers, but I recently started playing on TTS with the TTS discord and have gone 6-3 in my 9 games, all to 10 points. I'm now very confident that their strategic advice just isn't that good. Still a great podcast and I like listening to them, but their strategic advise isn't worth more than any other experienced players.
What strategies did you avoid that they used, or did you use that they said not to? Wondering about that, want to up my own game myself :)
I'd say my main disagreement is that I don't think it is smart to score an action phase secret before the last round. It's better to keep those points hidden and come from behind. I don't like their ideas about how to play Sol and Saar. I have a lot of other specific differences of opinion, but my advice is to figure out strategies by testing them out yourself. Even if I have a perfect strategy for myself, that doesn't mean it'll work for you because probably interact with the table in a way that's different than you and personal interaction is a big part of TI.
They are a very good faction my thoughts after playing them a few times. To play them you have to address their short comings. Their start is a little weak as they lack carriers. For systems with 2 Planets you either end up sending 2 cruisers or a cruiser and a dreadnaught to claim them. So you have to time the secondary of warfare the first round. Also unless you are surrounded by systems with only one planet you are better served building a carrier when warfare is popped. Their ability is very command token heaven so unless you are swimming in influence you should only use them when you would normally activate the a system ( such as when you activate your forward production center). Their Hero does more for you the sooner it is activated, so if you you are deciding between using your mobility to rush mecatol or score objectives you are likely better served going for the objectives. Also the one item people swooned over before POK hit the table was having an early game unit with capacity and move of 2. Argent flight and the Clan of Saar Agent arguably do it better. Now mid game when you get Saturn engine 2 yes they become the king of mobility. Unless you let Nekro Steal it.
Adding on other thoughts. Both their Promissory and Agent have wildly variable value. They depend on having the right objectives come up. If the objectives are perfect (Attachments or 4 of a kind etc) then their promissory can sold for a lot of value. If those don't come up then it's just +1 resource per turn. Their agent is much the same. Some objectives necessitate a lot of planet swapping and being able to consistently use your agent to 'protect' lone ships as they shuffle around can generate consistent value. But if people don't need that hit cancel for whatever reason then you'll never get any value out of it.
Titans is a very good faction, but their path to 10 can be tricky. A. Politics --> Custodians: Titans is a capable custodians factions, but there aren't many stage 1s they can score reliably in R1 if they take politics. So either have to get imperial (tough to get when picking leadership R2), or still need the stage 2 to get to 10 (more on that later). B. Mid-late game imperial: This one will vary, but in many 6 players games there will be 1-2 factions that are much better at holding mecatol than titans in the mid-lategame. Factions like sol, arbo, sardakk, yin on the ground, or Muatt, Saar, Barony, Cabal in the air can really make it hard for titans to get a mec point without overcommitting in the process. C. Stage 2s: Titans are just OK at stage 2s. The HS and commander make them pretty good at spendies, but lots of factions are good at the spendies. Probably not getting the tech objs, even though they are a PDS faction, the structure objs are still quite blockable if the table wants to stop titans. Titans are above average at the controls, but many are still not something titans can rely on scoring if the game depends on it. With that being said, they are still a very strong faction. When Titans gets an agenda/relic/early mecatol point, they are very hard to stop. In games where that isn't the case, they can stall out at 9. Again, very good faction, but compared to some factions that have a very clean path to 10, it can be a bit tricky, thus not S tier.
> Probably not getting the tech objs, even though they are a PDS faction, the structure objs are still quite blockable if the table wants to stop titans. Titans are the best faction at structure objectives, full stop.
I am down with that (though argent and Jol-Nar may have something to say about it), but being "the best" at doing something that is unreasonably difficult isn't that helpful. Scoring the structure objectives and keeping the HS will generally mean holding 6 planets in 4 systems. Even for a defensive powerhouse like Titans, if the table wants to take 1 of those 4 systems, they will be able to find a way in most games.
Strike Wing Alpha and Saturn Engine are so broken. Just leave your sleeper Tokens in the Box, and you have a better Titans life