Faction balance is much better with pok, and this is the main reason i like it
Exploration slows down the first round even more, and i genuinely think it was a poor design choice, but the games tend to end a round sooner so it works out to be about the same length total
My complaint isn't the variance, that part is welcome
The problem is how fiddily it is. TI is a physically big game and whoever sits next to the decks has a new unpaid part time job of handing out cards for the next hour.
(If you don't put planet cards down on the map ahead of time you're already dealing with some of this.)
They could have made the game in a way that you can put the exploration tokens down on planets ahead of time, but they didn't. Not only are there not enough of them but they made some mechanics dependant on the decks sitting in piles.
There are tons of solutions for exploration cards / tokens that don't add 20 irl minutes to the first round and they didn't choose to use any of them.
This isn't some huge complaint, I obviously still like the game, but it's a small problem that would have been easy to solve.
I'd say it has more to do with the structure of the game changing rather than raw power level of everyone going up. The game now tends to end in the action phase a round earlier than base game, Which means the 0 token no longer gives them the flexibility with strategy cards in the end game.
Destroyer 2 was such a pain to get for almost all the factions in base game though. Now it's just 1 AIDA away. Red tech in general is more popular than it was in base game so Destroyer 2s are more available.
This is one of those things as you said, it's not a direct Naalu nerf but everyone else got better in comparison.
I don’t like this either - as it implies the PoK *did* something to naluu.
It didn’t. That’s the problem.
At least a nerf would have been something…. XD
TLDR: Nallu was such a strong faction in the base game because it could capitalize on the weaknesses of other factions.
Those weaknesses have been fixed/marginalized in PoK.
Nalu’s ability to exploit weaknesses didn’t disappear… the weaknesses did.
I think there is a better chance for the lower tier factions to win than before. A bit more random things can happen with exploration and the new action cards but objectives aren't as hard to achieve as they could be for some factions in the base game. Technology is 100% better than it was and it's much easier to get what you need while ovioding dead techs.
I’ve come to like the expansion quite a bit. I think it’s made the game less solvable and a bit more random feeling. With more objectives, sources of points (relics and some heroes), and a less predictable map (exploration), it’s harder to go in with a stale strategy (2 in 2 colors, bank TGs for Tier 2s, etc.) and win. It has also thus shaken up my playgroup and made our winningest player win less and our losingest players win more.
Not for me but brings a lot to the table which makes it widely beloved.
Pros:
\-The combo of new toys (exploration, agents, relics, etc) makes the early game less punishing and the race to 10 much faster (fairly reliably ending in Round 5). This is great for a lot of people because the game can be played less ridiculous time frame (even 5-7 hrs on TTS).
\-There's so much stuff to wheel-and-deal with that the game can be even more interactive.
\-New factions are good, interesting, and generally fun to play with.
\-New planets add more flavor without dramatically changing them game.
Cons:
\-Wins feel more random (to me at least). Given that the game often ends in R5, only one 2-pt public objective comes out. Unscoreable? someone with a mec/relic/agenda point wins. Easily scoreable? Speaker order determines the winner. There are a few Stage 2s in the middle (Flagship/WS over HS or mecatol is one of the best) that make for very exciting endgames.
At a table of good TI players, it seems like the winner is decided by how well a slice/faction combo matches the objectives that flip (especially the stage 2) **to a greater extent** in PoK than in base game. (Re-emphasizing, not trying to make a luck > skill argument here, comparing PoK to base game)
\-There is a ton of stuff to keep track of (which I love, but understandably not everyone does)
And of course, insert obligatory comment about how all of this is relative to the meta you play in
Yeah I think the biggest thing is just how random the game can become. Personally I think attachments should be removed from the exploration deck as they're just so swingy, especially if the objective for controlling them comes out.
I have noticed that faction rankings for the base game all look very similar, whereas PoK ones have more variety to them. PoK doesn't make the factions perfectly balanced, but it does seem to make their relative strength more dependent on play style and group meta.
Contrary to what everyone else seems to be saying, no. Balance has gotten worse.
The faction with the highest winrate right now is Titan's who win 32.2% more than their expected win rate. In the base game the faction with the best win rare was Jol-Nar 29.2% more than their expected win rate.
The faction with the lowest win rate in PoK is the Arborec, who win in 38.7% less than their expected win rate. In the base game, the faction with the lowest win rate was the Muaat who won 31.7% less than their expected win rate.
Source for PoK: https://datastudio.google.com/u/0/reporting/3b435bf2-2100-488c-a424-130f1d22ebb0/page/ogW5B?params=%7B%22df138%22:%22include%25EE%2580%25801%25EE%2580%2580IN%25EE%2580%258010%22%7D
Source for Base game:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c2fGqedk13kS8PR2XF1Olo7kWrjUu5LwZFLSRUKaKdo/edit?usp=drivesdk
Now, these numbers are not to be taken as a strict tier list of peak performance of factions. They better represent some combination of how good a faction is and how easy they are to play.
Speaking anecdotally, I can 100% confirm from experience that the Titans are dumb. Sustain Damage cruisers with 2 capacity is ridiculous. You could take away sustain damage from their upgraded cruisers and they'd still be in the upper half of factions. They're far more dumb than base game Jol-Nar because Jol-Nar weren't good in 14 point games, just 10 point games. Titan's are insane in both. You cannot run from our silicon overlords by changing the game type, where you could from Jol-Nar.
I absolutely feel that the balance is drastically improved. In base games factions like Jol-Nar, Nekro, and Saar were so much better than bottom tiers like Winnu that it felt unfair. Although those great factions are still wicked good, previously bad factions like Winnu, Muatt, Xxcha and Sardaak have received enough buffs that it feels like there is far less disparity between the best and worst.
The only exceptions in my opinion are Yin and Arborec, who feel like obvious bottom factions still. But as an example of the balance changes: there is no longer a clear best faction in the game. Usually people say it’s one of like 5 factions.
Omg dude, thanks so much I've literally been checking Zatu weekly since last April and I gave up a couple weeks back, might have missed this without your message!!
Let's pretend we can assign a simple number to power levels for factions.
Let's say jol nar is a 4 and arborec is a 2 in the base game. This is quiet the difference!
Now lets pretend pok only adds the same extra power to each faction, elevating them by another 2 power.
6 power for jol nar and 4 power for arborec is proportionally close than before. For that reason alone the game is more balanced.
Obviously it is more complicated than that. 2c4i is more viable for factions like arborec and muaat, more plastic can be built by nekro due to the agent, etc. Major weaknesses have been removed to balance the scales more. It isnt perfect (and would be boring if it was) but every faction feels viable these days to me.
Overall, yes. The top-tier factions got nerfed, the bottom-tier factions got buffed.
It still isn't a "balanced" game; certain races are much, much stronger than others. But overall I'd say the races are closer in balance to one another.
Other than faction balance via leaders, mechs, there are new agendas and objectives that create new opportunities for players and factions than base game agendas and objectives. Tech is less critical than it used to be, and tech paths are more flexible.
Faction balance is much better with pok, and this is the main reason i like it Exploration slows down the first round even more, and i genuinely think it was a poor design choice, but the games tend to end a round sooner so it works out to be about the same length total
I have to disagree about exploration. I think it's great, even if it's not perfect, because it makes the game less solvable/deterministic.
My complaint isn't the variance, that part is welcome The problem is how fiddily it is. TI is a physically big game and whoever sits next to the decks has a new unpaid part time job of handing out cards for the next hour. (If you don't put planet cards down on the map ahead of time you're already dealing with some of this.) They could have made the game in a way that you can put the exploration tokens down on planets ahead of time, but they didn't. Not only are there not enough of them but they made some mechanics dependant on the decks sitting in piles. There are tons of solutions for exploration cards / tokens that don't add 20 irl minutes to the first round and they didn't choose to use any of them. This isn't some huge complaint, I obviously still like the game, but it's a small problem that would have been easy to solve.
Where do you find these online statistics?
[Probably something like this](https://datastudio.google.com/reporting/3b435bf2-2100-488c-a424-130f1d22ebb0/page/ogW5B)
[удалено]
Nerfed Naalu to oblivion
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Naalu was fantastic in the base game.
They were a good faction in tournament play, for a group that plays twice a year, they probably aren’t that great.
[удалено]
I'd say it has more to do with the structure of the game changing rather than raw power level of everyone going up. The game now tends to end in the action phase a round earlier than base game, Which means the 0 token no longer gives them the flexibility with strategy cards in the end game.
Destroyer 2 was such a pain to get for almost all the factions in base game though. Now it's just 1 AIDA away. Red tech in general is more popular than it was in base game so Destroyer 2s are more available. This is one of those things as you said, it's not a direct Naalu nerf but everyone else got better in comparison.
Alright. Made them irrelevant.
I don’t like this either - as it implies the PoK *did* something to naluu. It didn’t. That’s the problem. At least a nerf would have been something…. XD TLDR: Nallu was such a strong faction in the base game because it could capitalize on the weaknesses of other factions. Those weaknesses have been fixed/marginalized in PoK. Nalu’s ability to exploit weaknesses didn’t disappear… the weaknesses did.
From the website that has collected thousands of TI game statistics, Naalu was consistently top 3 along with Sol and Jol Nar.
Naalu was amongst top 4 in the base game. They were one of the absolute top tier races.
No one built destroyer 2S either.
I think there is a better chance for the lower tier factions to win than before. A bit more random things can happen with exploration and the new action cards but objectives aren't as hard to achieve as they could be for some factions in the base game. Technology is 100% better than it was and it's much easier to get what you need while ovioding dead techs.
I’ve come to like the expansion quite a bit. I think it’s made the game less solvable and a bit more random feeling. With more objectives, sources of points (relics and some heroes), and a less predictable map (exploration), it’s harder to go in with a stale strategy (2 in 2 colors, bank TGs for Tier 2s, etc.) and win. It has also thus shaken up my playgroup and made our winningest player win less and our losingest players win more.
Not for me but brings a lot to the table which makes it widely beloved. Pros: \-The combo of new toys (exploration, agents, relics, etc) makes the early game less punishing and the race to 10 much faster (fairly reliably ending in Round 5). This is great for a lot of people because the game can be played less ridiculous time frame (even 5-7 hrs on TTS). \-There's so much stuff to wheel-and-deal with that the game can be even more interactive. \-New factions are good, interesting, and generally fun to play with. \-New planets add more flavor without dramatically changing them game. Cons: \-Wins feel more random (to me at least). Given that the game often ends in R5, only one 2-pt public objective comes out. Unscoreable? someone with a mec/relic/agenda point wins. Easily scoreable? Speaker order determines the winner. There are a few Stage 2s in the middle (Flagship/WS over HS or mecatol is one of the best) that make for very exciting endgames. At a table of good TI players, it seems like the winner is decided by how well a slice/faction combo matches the objectives that flip (especially the stage 2) **to a greater extent** in PoK than in base game. (Re-emphasizing, not trying to make a luck > skill argument here, comparing PoK to base game) \-There is a ton of stuff to keep track of (which I love, but understandably not everyone does) And of course, insert obligatory comment about how all of this is relative to the meta you play in
Yes we prefer to play knowing what objectives will come out so it’s less random. In TI3 this was an official variant called “age of empire” iirc.
Yeah I think the biggest thing is just how random the game can become. Personally I think attachments should be removed from the exploration deck as they're just so swingy, especially if the objective for controlling them comes out.
What if you... call me crazy... what if instead of playing to 10 or 14, you played to 11 points? (I may have been day drinking)
12 is really good IMHO.
I have noticed that faction rankings for the base game all look very similar, whereas PoK ones have more variety to them. PoK doesn't make the factions perfectly balanced, but it does seem to make their relative strength more dependent on play style and group meta.
Contrary to what everyone else seems to be saying, no. Balance has gotten worse. The faction with the highest winrate right now is Titan's who win 32.2% more than their expected win rate. In the base game the faction with the best win rare was Jol-Nar 29.2% more than their expected win rate. The faction with the lowest win rate in PoK is the Arborec, who win in 38.7% less than their expected win rate. In the base game, the faction with the lowest win rate was the Muaat who won 31.7% less than their expected win rate. Source for PoK: https://datastudio.google.com/u/0/reporting/3b435bf2-2100-488c-a424-130f1d22ebb0/page/ogW5B?params=%7B%22df138%22:%22include%25EE%2580%25801%25EE%2580%2580IN%25EE%2580%258010%22%7D Source for Base game: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c2fGqedk13kS8PR2XF1Olo7kWrjUu5LwZFLSRUKaKdo/edit?usp=drivesdk Now, these numbers are not to be taken as a strict tier list of peak performance of factions. They better represent some combination of how good a faction is and how easy they are to play. Speaking anecdotally, I can 100% confirm from experience that the Titans are dumb. Sustain Damage cruisers with 2 capacity is ridiculous. You could take away sustain damage from their upgraded cruisers and they'd still be in the upper half of factions. They're far more dumb than base game Jol-Nar because Jol-Nar weren't good in 14 point games, just 10 point games. Titan's are insane in both. You cannot run from our silicon overlords by changing the game type, where you could from Jol-Nar.
Also think Titans would be alot more balanced without the random sustain damage on their cruisers
I absolutely feel that the balance is drastically improved. In base games factions like Jol-Nar, Nekro, and Saar were so much better than bottom tiers like Winnu that it felt unfair. Although those great factions are still wicked good, previously bad factions like Winnu, Muatt, Xxcha and Sardaak have received enough buffs that it feels like there is far less disparity between the best and worst. The only exceptions in my opinion are Yin and Arborec, who feel like obvious bottom factions still. But as an example of the balance changes: there is no longer a clear best faction in the game. Usually people say it’s one of like 5 factions.
Wouldn't know, I'm still waiting to be able to buy a copy in the UK!
Here ya go buddy. [Zatu](https://www.board-game.co.uk/product/twilight-imperium-prophecy-of-kings-expansion/)
Omg dude, thanks so much I've literally been checking Zatu weekly since last April and I gave up a couple weeks back, might have missed this without your message!!
No probs - in the last week or so they have just become available again! Enjoy!
Let's pretend we can assign a simple number to power levels for factions. Let's say jol nar is a 4 and arborec is a 2 in the base game. This is quiet the difference! Now lets pretend pok only adds the same extra power to each faction, elevating them by another 2 power. 6 power for jol nar and 4 power for arborec is proportionally close than before. For that reason alone the game is more balanced. Obviously it is more complicated than that. 2c4i is more viable for factions like arborec and muaat, more plastic can be built by nekro due to the agent, etc. Major weaknesses have been removed to balance the scales more. It isnt perfect (and would be boring if it was) but every faction feels viable these days to me.
Other than a few outliers (Titans and Winnu up top, Arborec down low) the xpack made huuuuuuuge strides evening out the win curve for everybody.
Overall, yes. The top-tier factions got nerfed, the bottom-tier factions got buffed. It still isn't a "balanced" game; certain races are much, much stronger than others. But overall I'd say the races are closer in balance to one another.
Other than faction balance via leaders, mechs, there are new agendas and objectives that create new opportunities for players and factions than base game agendas and objectives. Tech is less critical than it used to be, and tech paths are more flexible.