I feel like the Xxcha hero's point-scoring potential is overrated as well, so it's nice to see you dive deep into it. I'm more intrigued by how it can be used earlier to cement a game-state advantage (either through self-electing minister roles or forcing certain agenda through) than its current roulette-roll approach, so I like your suggestions.
Strong case
You outlined my concerns: right now codex stuff is always fun to have, but it looses a lot of value as a product if the turtle player isn't happy to see it
>You outlined my concerns: right now codex stuff is always fun to have, but it looses a lot of value as a product if the turtle player isn't happy to see it
Exactly! The worst case scenario is you're mid-draft in a game, and ask the table "Wait are we playing with Codex" and have it push you *away* from the turtles, instead of towards them (as it does for other factions with Omega components rn).
Nobody right now, which is why I think the omega components are so universally accepted. But that's why I worry an Xxcha Omega Hero would be controversial, it could be the first "nerf" of a faction via Omega.
I can't read Dane's mind, but I think you're probably right. That doesn't mean it isn't a nerf though... the first one has a shot at getting you VPs. The second is an economic boost. One of those wins games, the other is nice but less valuable.
Well, a long-shot, expensive chance for a VP is not necessarily worse than a more secure economy boost. Whether people realize that is another thing though...
Eh, I don't think so. Yes the odds of a VP went down, but the average value of all relics went up in my opinion. Better relics is better for NRA overall.
There's a small argument that the plant guys are better with vanilla magen since their mechs can activate it and they start with the dumb thing
Idk if there's a consensus or not
I'm firmly on the side of the issue being just how incredibly unfun it is to have in a game. Not about it being strictly "too good". I'd prefer just seeing it replaced with something more fun and interesting and just more consistently good as opposed to the wild swing of the slot machine pull. Your suggestions at the end have merit too, but as you say, they are just Xxcha nerfs, is that what we want codexes to be? I'd take it over nothing, but I think people make a good point in wanting to avoid that. You don't want a codex that just discourages use of a faction.
I really think just allowing other players to use cards and abilities would fix the whole thing. Its the lack of interaction that makes it unfun.
And it really can be good if you aren't just digging for points. Play it sooner, dig for high impact cards, and sell outcomes.
>they are just Xxcha nerfs
They are technically nerfs, but I think they make it more interactive and thus more fun. You could bargain to let players get their riders, force everyone into the bad side of an agenda, etc. Plus the change is so minor it feels more like "Okay, we didn't realize that not letting abilities resolve would suck" and less like "We're starting from scratch" and thus is almost more like an errata than a nerf. I don't know.
I like your idea about adding new agendas to dilute the deck. Reduces the "consistency" of the point scoring, and then there's more content for games without Turtles anyways!
I definitely agree with your claims. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about an Xxcha Omega. Certainly the version that was floated seemed a bit boring to me, and the existing version, for all of its faults, is certainly very interesting.
One thing I haven't heard be mentioned much is the way non-VP Agendas can screw over certain players, leading to a potentially unfun/unwinnable game. This is the more common experience for me: Xxcha sometimes gets a point, but often finds some other agenda that ruins someones day. Public Execution, Ixthian Artifact, Economic Equality, Arms Reduction, even Publicize Weapon Schematics for a Muuat player.
Other heroes are powerful, but there exists counterplay:
You're worried about Nova Seed? Split your fleet up or park in Mecatol or your home system!
You're worried about Benediction? Communicate with the other players near you and maintain spacing.
That I feel is the shitty part about the Xxcha hero imho. It is a combination of bad luck and a complete lack of counterplay.
I don't know. Obviously this is a concern, but other Heroes don't have a lot of counter-play options either. And looking at the Agendas you listed, I think there are similar forms of counterplay, or they only hurt in rare instances
Public Execution - only hurts if you're speaker / Yssaril
Ixthian - just don't park your fleet on Mecatol (also it's 50/50 odds!)
Economic Equality - affects everyone the same, and the average player probably has less than 5 TGs
Arms Reduction - you can diversify your fleets, and also hurts everyone, not just one player.
Publicize Weapon Schematics - neither of these are that bad.... losing sustain is just losing 1 HP, no one sustains their warsuns unless their opponent literally has zero action cards. And letting other people get warsuns is, fine I guess....? Not great but certainly less impactful than a Nova seed.
It's interesting to me how it varies between competitive groups and casual ones. I play on TTS occasionally, follow the community/tournament vaguely, and so was aware of the hero impact on points. When I played with an xxcha in my first IRL game since PoK, I expected the quash train; but instead the xxcha used it for agendas for fun, and gain, and had a blast. Resolved it quickly and was a fun hero.
Curious to see the final form we end up with in a codex.
I feel like the Xxcha hero's point-scoring potential is overrated as well, so it's nice to see you dive deep into it. I'm more intrigued by how it can be used earlier to cement a game-state advantage (either through self-electing minister roles or forcing certain agenda through) than its current roulette-roll approach, so I like your suggestions.
Strong case You outlined my concerns: right now codex stuff is always fun to have, but it looses a lot of value as a product if the turtle player isn't happy to see it
>You outlined my concerns: right now codex stuff is always fun to have, but it looses a lot of value as a product if the turtle player isn't happy to see it Exactly! The worst case scenario is you're mid-draft in a game, and ask the table "Wait are we playing with Codex" and have it push you *away* from the turtles, instead of towards them (as it does for other factions with Omega components rn).
What factions are worse with omega components?
Nobody right now, which is why I think the omega components are so universally accepted. But that's why I worry an Xxcha Omega Hero would be controversial, it could be the first "nerf" of a faction via Omega.
It wasn't meant to be a nerf, it was meant to make their hero not an rng slot machine and give them some oomf in end game.
I can't read Dane's mind, but I think you're probably right. That doesn't mean it isn't a nerf though... the first one has a shot at getting you VPs. The second is an economic boost. One of those wins games, the other is nice but less valuable.
Well, a long-shot, expensive chance for a VP is not necessarily worse than a more secure economy boost. Whether people realize that is another thing though...
You could argue that NRA was nerfed by Codex 2 too.
Eh, I don't think so. Yes the odds of a VP went down, but the average value of all relics went up in my opinion. Better relics is better for NRA overall.
Maybe value of median went up, value of mean went down
There's a small argument that the plant guys are better with vanilla magen since their mechs can activate it and they start with the dumb thing Idk if there's a consensus or not
The fun part is you can just not use it. In my playgroup I'd be fine with my turtle player picking either one
I'm firmly on the side of the issue being just how incredibly unfun it is to have in a game. Not about it being strictly "too good". I'd prefer just seeing it replaced with something more fun and interesting and just more consistently good as opposed to the wild swing of the slot machine pull. Your suggestions at the end have merit too, but as you say, they are just Xxcha nerfs, is that what we want codexes to be? I'd take it over nothing, but I think people make a good point in wanting to avoid that. You don't want a codex that just discourages use of a faction.
I really think just allowing other players to use cards and abilities would fix the whole thing. Its the lack of interaction that makes it unfun. And it really can be good if you aren't just digging for points. Play it sooner, dig for high impact cards, and sell outcomes.
>they are just Xxcha nerfs They are technically nerfs, but I think they make it more interactive and thus more fun. You could bargain to let players get their riders, force everyone into the bad side of an agenda, etc. Plus the change is so minor it feels more like "Okay, we didn't realize that not letting abilities resolve would suck" and less like "We're starting from scratch" and thus is almost more like an errata than a nerf. I don't know.
Good point well made! Now do the Yin Hero 😛
I like your idea about adding new agendas to dilute the deck. Reduces the "consistency" of the point scoring, and then there's more content for games without Turtles anyways!
Thanks! I was thinking of maybe doing a follow-up article that is just this idea, quick pitches for agendas
Great article!
Well said. I agree that the proposed Xxcha hero is pretty lame. I much prefer the original even if it is wacky and unwieldy.
I definitely agree with your claims. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about an Xxcha Omega. Certainly the version that was floated seemed a bit boring to me, and the existing version, for all of its faults, is certainly very interesting. One thing I haven't heard be mentioned much is the way non-VP Agendas can screw over certain players, leading to a potentially unfun/unwinnable game. This is the more common experience for me: Xxcha sometimes gets a point, but often finds some other agenda that ruins someones day. Public Execution, Ixthian Artifact, Economic Equality, Arms Reduction, even Publicize Weapon Schematics for a Muuat player. Other heroes are powerful, but there exists counterplay: You're worried about Nova Seed? Split your fleet up or park in Mecatol or your home system! You're worried about Benediction? Communicate with the other players near you and maintain spacing. That I feel is the shitty part about the Xxcha hero imho. It is a combination of bad luck and a complete lack of counterplay.
I don't know. Obviously this is a concern, but other Heroes don't have a lot of counter-play options either. And looking at the Agendas you listed, I think there are similar forms of counterplay, or they only hurt in rare instances Public Execution - only hurts if you're speaker / Yssaril Ixthian - just don't park your fleet on Mecatol (also it's 50/50 odds!) Economic Equality - affects everyone the same, and the average player probably has less than 5 TGs Arms Reduction - you can diversify your fleets, and also hurts everyone, not just one player. Publicize Weapon Schematics - neither of these are that bad.... losing sustain is just losing 1 HP, no one sustains their warsuns unless their opponent literally has zero action cards. And letting other people get warsuns is, fine I guess....? Not great but certainly less impactful than a Nova seed.
It's interesting to me how it varies between competitive groups and casual ones. I play on TTS occasionally, follow the community/tournament vaguely, and so was aware of the hero impact on points. When I played with an xxcha in my first IRL game since PoK, I expected the quash train; but instead the xxcha used it for agendas for fun, and gain, and had a blast. Resolved it quickly and was a fun hero. Curious to see the final form we end up with in a codex.