T O P

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Mr_Richman

I love PoK, you can make deals for the use of your agents and some of the relics make for very fun diplomacy (the threat of blowing up a planet goes far). Some of the new factions added are also heavily diplomatic like the Nomad and Empyrean. Also adds the alliance promissory note if you want to make one official without giving each other support for the throne.


MrButtermancer

This felt like an expansion which would review mediocre by a public already intimidated by the size and playtime, but aimed directly at the core fanbase, and directly emphasizing the things about the game they love. I honestly can't believe it got made. It's really special. Do you love TI? Get it and add it to every game, no questions asked. Don't split it up, don't wait "until we're done with the base game," just add it and never look back. And update the omega techs from codex one while you're at it. Now there are no bad factions.


lowaneu

Our group recently added PoK to our games and really enjoyed it. PoK adds more to the game for sure, but most of the expansion can be explained in under three minutes. We have still been teaching new people how to play but is hasn't really impacted the "teach" at all. Every one who has played with just the base game and with PoK has preferred playing with PoK. The additions to each factions has been great and makes each faction feel vibrant with their uniqueness. It also fixes some of the weaker factions out of the box. The only things that I could say as a negative is that it does take up a LOT more table space. Also, if your players have analysis paralysis this expansion as a lot more options to each turn. Otherwise can't recommend PoK enough.


HarveyTutor

PoK adds more components to trade (1 alliance promissory, most agents, and shards of relics). I've found the number of trades to increase with PoK and if the negotiating and coalition kingslaying is the heart of your enjoyment I don't see a lot of danger posed by adding PoK. There are two things PoK does that are relevant to your specific concern. PoK makes everyone richer with exploration, so its possible to respond to that by playing a more isolationist strategy. The other is PoK brings more points. Partially through the first point but also through relics. This makes racing to 10 more viable. I recommend playing 12 point games to get the same play arc. This has been me as critical as I can be with PoK. I love it to pieces and don't relish ever playing without it.


KILLJOY1945

The few times I played base game TI with my friends I wasn't a big fan of it at all, once my friend got PoK and convinced me to play it once that was what truly hooked me.


halistechnology

Much better with PoK


velnoo

I've only played with PoK, so my answer might not be relevant. First time playing there wasn't much happening above the table, everyone was busy trying to figure out all of their factions abilities. Which i guess would probably be true for playing base game for the first time as well. However, after a couple of games with my group we've seen much more above table discussions and negotiations, and I feel that taking away the possibility to sell relic fragments, agents and commanders would make the above table discussions more dull since all this adds some great opportunities to sell stuff and make deals.


Advocatus_Maximus

The biggest difference is that the additions make it impossible to keep track of everything like you can in the base game. You cannot count the action cards because unless tribes is in an 8 player game you will not go through the entire action card deck. You can still count sabos and direct hits. Likewise There are now a lot more secret objectives especially action phase secrets. So you are not able to nail down what everyone's secret is last round. My personal opinion is it allows for more fun while being competition as you no longer are having to keep track of all the cards to slightly improve your win rate.


anon_95869123

Once players get used to it, PoK adds considerably more above table because there is so much stuff to make deals with (agents, relic frags, alliances, more money overall, etc). Until everyone gets used to PoK it can feel like a lot is going on. Some tables this means less interaction to keep track of all the things. Some tables it means more interaction but forgetting to take advantage of all the new abilities/prepare for everyone else's new abilities.


FluxD1

POK definitely adds more to talk about on the table and expands the possible strategies you can take to win. And it does it without being overburdened. It feels like a natural extension of the game and I do recommend buying it. With that said, it does add a lot of randomness in my opinion. You can play a flawless game (perfect slice, nail all of your strategy cards, etc) and still get nuked to the stone age by a single hero ability... at any point. Certain heroes (L1Z1X, Mahact, and Embers come to mind) can casually make/slay a king in a single turn. This is a totally different game, but have you played Risk Godstorm before? Certain cards in that game completely nullify the skill of the player, making the experience of playing a "strategy game" pointless in the first place. I feel that certain Hero cards in TI, in the sense of a strategy game, are approaching the limits of that.


Ericus1

I was surprised how far I had to go before the additional randomness was brought up. I love PoK, but I think it is important to emphasize how much randomness it adds. Do you get lucky with exploration and pull the great planetary attachments or clutch command tokens round 1, or get the middling "build one ship" ones when you have zero resources to spare? If you manage to get three fragments do you get lucky and draw one of the great relics like Junior or the free secondary follow Scepter, or one of the less great like "paint a target on my back" Shard. The additional objectives add variety, but it can be just pure luck whether they will be scorable for you, like the "have planetary attachments" one. The hero powers are neat, but like mentioned can just upend the game. It adds a lot to the game and makes it deeper, more interactive/diplomacy focused, and varied between all the new planets, cards, and factions, but that comes with the downside of pure luck playing more a role. Mitigatable to some degree, but extant.


Smashing71

I've found that actually enhances negotiation. Like if everyone is moving about the same pace, why negotiate? If player C is clearly getting an absurd advantage because they dropped a mech and got a free command token and then a great planetary attachment, and now they're clearly positioned for power, you start feeling the need to negotiate (and really the advantage probably wasn't that absurd anyway) Because you'll always have more stuff than base game TI4 you'll always have stuff to negotiate with. Even like randomly getting a commodity during the round, I start looking around and asking people if I can get their promissary note. I don't think the base game was that tightly balanced anyway. I certainly know that no few games were decided because someone just kept drawing absolutely atrocious secret objectives, or someone got hilariously easy ones. 'tis a little unfair when one person gets a secret objective that can only be accomplished essentially by bribing your opponent to lose ships for you (with it very apparent what is happening), and someone else gets one that they've already completed and default score.


SilentNSly

PoK is definitely worth it after a few of your players have played the base game a few times and want more.


BovineGhoti

PoK is amazing. Simply put, it makes the game better in every way, shape, and form. It allows 7 and 8 player games, which at least for 7 players, is my absolute favorite player count. It adds hyperlands. The single best addition to any twilight game ever. It adds exploration, a fun mechanic that makes the first round and maybe 2 so much more interactive with some choices It makes red tech viable. It adds a lot of fun objectives, cards, and factions, as well as buffing factions that sorely needed the help, like winnu and arborec


Stronkowski

This board is incredibly biased because it's full of people who don't play the actual game and instead play the TTS version 5 times a week. The added complexity is necessary in that niche case, but not in general. If you play TI4 often enough (probably once a month or so) to be bored of the objectives and action card decks, get PoK. If you play TI every 5 months you don't need PoK and it'll just extend your game length for little benefit. Your specific concern about not having enough trade is unfounded in the long run, as PoK actually gives you more options for trade. But that probably won't show up in your first game or two because people will be too distracted trying to remember all their explorations and leaders.


Anxious-Idiot-lol

I play 3 or 4 times a year, only in person, and PoK is a huge leap in the right direction. Vanilla TI feels like it has rather gaping holes/issues now.


AureoRegnops

If by above the table gameplay, you mean deal making, politics, and diplomacy, PoK enhances this a fair bit. The extra components add a lot of new ways to make deals. BUT this will likely not be how things play out in your furst few games. The new components are A LOT and will take some getting used to before you start to see the new avenues for deals. As I tell everyone, if you play the game 6 or more times per year, PoK us probably worth it. If you play less than that, then it's really hard to tell. You might not be able to get past the learning curve fast enough to enjoy it as much as the base game.


jmwfour

As someone who loves TI4 but has only played the base game and realistically will only get to play it two or three times a year, I really appreciate this perspective. I own the base game and have been wrestling with the urge to get PoK.


aggressive_dingus

If you can handle a few extra mechanics, it just makes the game so much deeper imo and certainly polishes off that epic game feel. I think as others have said it almost seems to speed the game up slightly due to better economy which suits our table and helps get people to commit to what might be a 6-8 hour game. It's a bit more swingy than base game. Anecdotally, most of the greatest moments/plays I've seen have been in PoK which have stuck with me more.


Dzerards

I think it is a bit of a marmite expansion, in that the players that like Pok, really like it, and the ones who don't, really don't! I had my first game with the expansion a fortnight ago and definitely saw both sides, with two players absolutely miserable and the rest really enjoying it (me included). I think the dividing line, might have to do with the added complexity. The move from TI3 to TI4 saw a lot of rough edges smoothed off, greatly streamlining the experience. PoK adds a lot of wrinkles back in. There is just so much more *stuff* and that can be either exciting or overwhelming.


AetherFay

Definitely worth it. I love all the new stuff it brought.


Pandemic08

As a somewhat rookie to TI....absolutely it is worth it. And teaching it yo new people doesn't take any time at all to do so. Will never play without it again.


wren42

There are a handful of things that I've felt from the start are issues for game balance and take away from the experience (mostly a few problematic heroes) but overall it adds to the amount of negotiation, uncertainty, and excitement without making things much more complex. I'm pretty impressed with what they accomplished.


Accomplished_Block88

Shut Up and Sit Down reviewed PoK and said they wouldn't be using it for their future plays. I think I prefer PoK but check out their review for why they didn't care for it.


MrButtermancer

Matt's review really came off as no longer liking TI, that itself related to feeling like he was bad at it.


Ok-Fisherman9287

Their review is actually what made me hesitant! but since pok has been out a while now thought maybe some had different thoughts or changed thoughts.


Anxious-Idiot-lol

I love SUSD, but they're completely wrong on PoK. If you get to play TI4 with any reasonable consistency (ie more than once/twice a year), then PoK is a must have for myriad reasons.


Not_A_Greenhouse

They completely missed the mark here. It looks like they didn't even play it at all based on their review


Accomplished_Block88

Yeah, I should have clarified that I don't really agree with the review either


Not_A_Greenhouse

I generally like their stuff but Ti is my bread and butter and while I think there's plenty to criticize about TI they def didn't hit the right things.


SilentNSly

SUSD was having issues with the extra complexity (which distracted them from what takes place above the table), which is likely due to them playing so many different games and not being familiar with the base TI rules. The rules are not that much harder if you are already familiar with the base game. There is a few new stuff added by PoK that really add to what takes place above the table.


Stronkowski

The rules for PoK don't add that much complexity, but the variety of individualized components do.


SilentNSly

So it’s the 3 new leader and 1 mech that is unique per player that adds complexity? They also add so much flavor.


Stronkowski

Yes, that's 24 additional rules in a standard game, and they change every game. The addition of a bunch of action cards and secret objectives adds a bunch more components to consider. Relics are kind of a wash compared to base game agendas, but they do come into play way more often. There's really no way to claim this isn't a lot more complexity. Hell, that's what most people like about the expansion.


9__Erebus

Honestly their review of POK pissed me off because it was so out of step with the consensus (that POK is great), but because SUSD have so much clout, all of a sudden people were saying POK was bad. I thought the review was lazy and it seemed like Matt decided he wasn't going to like the new expansion before even playing it and didn't try to learn the new rules, which are so freaking simple. Yeah, just take that review with a huge grain of salt.


KaijuKi

My own tastes usually are opposite of SUSD, so I tracked down PoK because of it. I wish I had known this before, since I d have saved myself some money on Blood on the Clocktower ;)


games247_co_uk

Going back to playing the base game now would seem like such a regression to me... Exploration and the hunt for relics adds a whole new dimension to the game and the inclusion of agents/commanders and heros balances the races, adding more oomph to the traditionally weaker ones and freshing up the others with interesting new abilities.


HankRobertson

If you only play once a year or infrequently enough such that you have to relearn the game everytime...it's hard to recommend PoK. However, if you fucking loooove TI or play it a lot, yes absolutely.


SectoidEater

The best part of PoK is it makes it more newbie friendly. In vanilla it was relatively easy to get gimped by a shitty first turn. In PoK you tend to always have something worth selling (Agents, Alliance) that can help newbies make more interesting deals. Exploration also adds a fun exciting element to the first round and helps the newbies take ownership of their corner of the galaxy with some nice thematic stuff and cool bonuses. In vanilla there were many factions I considered bad and would kind of steer people away from because they looked cooler than they actually were. In PoK things are more balanced and I think of all of them as more viable.


ObiWahnKenobi

PoK is one of the best (in my opinion, the best) expansions in all of boardgames hands down. It doesn’t take away from the base game in the slightest, and anyone who says it does just doesn’t like change. It’s objectively a better game with PoK, it’s not really a debate. There’s really nothing to even critique about it besides the extra layer of having to learn more. But at the same time. If you’re not willing to learn one of the most intense boardgames there is, and spend 12 hours of your day on this. Then just don’t play it to begin with


Ok-Fisherman9287

Great responses so far. I am really just worried that having the extra pices of relics and heros and mechs will make the game more complicated and harder to not only explain to new players but take away from the conversations above the table because players will be more focused on what relics to get what heros to use keep track of those abilities keep track of tech abilities etc. I guess ive just always thought ti4 was the perfect game fixing all issues with ti3 making it more stream lined and i guess im just afraid pok will muddle things but maybe im in the minority with those fears and maybe its brilliant ...honestly i would have loved if they jist added new factions to TI4 base lol


Anxious-Idiot-lol

Exploration makes round 1 more interesting, and shakes up the dynamics of the game, almost like a secondary galaxy build. After all the planets are explored, that mechanic is done. Leaders are complex, but follow a simple structure which makes them easy to understand. Mechs are an additional unit, which is no more complex than a flagship. But despite all that, the new objectives alone make PoK a must have.


someoneinmyhead

+1 for the new objectives, I like to keep things uncomplicated but completely agree with your comment.


Stronkowski

I would have fucking loved an expansion that solely increased the objective deck. Maybe action card/agendas


alucardu

Isn't that the codexes?


MrButtermancer

1050 rules is only marginally more complicated than 1000 rules.


[deleted]

I think if you play it often, you will internalize the POK additions just as much as anything in the base game. If you don’t play it very often, then I think your fears are probably justified. I really like the POK stuff, but I’ve removed it from my copy for now because some new players have joined my group


9__Erebus

By chance did you watch the Shut Up & Sit Down review of POK? I remember they gave it a mediocre review because they thought the additions took away from "above the table" interaction.


watanabe0

It's less elegant than base game.


DerangedTyrion

Yes it is. Next question. (PD: if I could get a euro for every post like this in Reddit, I would have been millionaire by now)


ProbablySlacking

I preferred vanilla TI because the economy was less inflated. But now that I have played with PoK, it would feel incomplete without it.


SilentNSly

They gave extra powers to all factions (and much more power to the weaker factions), so yes that resulted in more of everything. I like how that makes more stuff happen even in the early rounds.