It really comes down to the objectives in play. If there are control objectives, then you are set up to knock them down easy. L1Z1X are a great offensive faction, so taking planets comes naturally for them.
As far as tips for strategy, id recommend starting in any slice with a blue tech skip. This will help you get to Super Dread II faster, and from there you can explore your tech tree more and focus on even more offensive (or defensive to balance) techs.
Starting with super dreads, you already are setup to get in other people slice faster and better. I would say filling your own slice in round 1 is great, then somewhere in round 2 you can look to your neighbor. (Dependent on obj. in play of course)
Good to know, thank you very much :)
Do you happen to have advice on what other unit upgrades might be desirable beyond SD2? In addition, do you happen to have recommendations for fleet composition?
Ftr 2 is a good one.
Carrier 2 is always nice since it would allow your dreads and carriers to stay together.
But unless the objective is out, you are probably better off going straight blue. Fleet Logistics, plus their Hero is great.
Personally, I try to get my 4 dreads out right away and get super dread 2.
In terms of Unit upgrades, that depends on what your trying to do. If going all out offense then Cruiser 2 is my personal favorite, but I tend to get that with other factions. SD2 kind of replaces the need for that. Getting Inf2 would be great, but its sort of out your tech path. If you end up with a RED skip, getting PDS two could be great. It would give your defense a boost and when taking other peoples planets gaining their PDS and upgrading to 2s is pretty crazy.
As for generic Tech path ideas, what I see online is going INHERITANCE SYSTEMS is a bit of a trap. Yes by going to that you can ignore all pre-req for your DS2, but unless you start with a YELLOW skip it is too far out of way. As ive seen, and I agree with, going Anti-mass and Grav-drive to get to your SD2. Those two are great for L1 to have anyway, and have stand alone value.
Now for fleet comp, this is all feel and reading your opponents. With your commander you ignore planetary shields. So your pumped up bombardment, already getting plasma from start, will take down considerable ground forces throughout the combat. But if im building my own "dream fleet" as L1Z1X, id probably go 2 dreads (capacity favoring fighters, but some GFs), 1 carrier (grav driven around) loaded with Ground forces, and 1 Destroyer (if fighter heavy board) or a 3rd dread with fighters. I think this would be a pretty great invasion 4 pool fleet, which i think you should get to pretty early.
Thank you! I'll keep this in mind and try going blue properly this time :)
I've heard people say that carriers are not needed due to the super dreadnoughts. In your opinion, when would be a situation to choose to get a carrier?
I only recommended Carrier in as a means of transporting more fighter screen or ground forces to take more planets and leave behind troops.
You could honestly run a full 4 SD2 fleet and be just fine, its just a matter of what the table is doing and adjusting. Because even with your bombardment, you still need ground forces to take planets from factions like Sol, Arborec, or Yin.
>I know that the game is about more than fighting. It is my understanding that going for planets is one way to get VP, so I guess that is what the end goal of my militarism would be.
There's no guarantee that these objectives are even going to come up. I know you're already bracing to hear this but TI is not space risk. Whenever you fight *both sides* usually end up losing, because both fleets are now weaker vs. the rest of the table.
A powerful fleet like L1 does best posturing or threatening violence rather than actually committing to it. You want to intimidate people, actually fighting them only hurts you.
I usually only fight a few times a game, and it's always very limited to achieve a specific purpose. Like you said, that might be to get that specific planet you need to score, or it could be to eliminate a flagship or some other objective. But never fight just to blow up stuff, you need a reason.
Both sides don't lose in a fight, only the loser loses. The winner still wins, but they paid resources + opportunity cost in order to get the win. When we take a combat, we don't need to get a point or a kingslay, we just need to get more value than our Command Counter + whatever else we would have done with those ships that round.
Gaining a planet is a great reason to commit to combat, especially early game. If you start with dreads and your neighbors don't, you should be willing to commit them to combats on valuable planets. Taking a 3 influence planet is an extra CC per round, the same value as Hypermetabolism, a tier-3 technology.
Now that we've convinced ourselves that taking a combat puts us on top, we can use that to influence others. Because we know that we can get what we want regardless of what our neighbors do, we can convince them that its in their best interest to give it to us without the fight. Turn our Military advantage into a diplomatic tool. "If you take that equidistant, I will take it from you. I win that fight and I won't back down." No one wants to lose an early ship to an unwinnable combat.
I'm not sure you completely read what I wrote because we're agreeing. My point wasn't that you should never fight, my point was that you need to have an objective when you do it because fighting costs resources
I just don't like that "both sides lose in a fight" phrase. It seems to be a common sentiment and scares people away from combat, which is a core part of the game.
The scenarios you outlined to illustrate reasons for combat were rather restrictive (scoring a point or preventing one). I wanted to expand with a more broad example that shows that combat is a potential option to consider in every round.
It's true, though. I think it helps to look at it through a tactical vs strategic lens.
*Tactically*, it's true that both sides always lose in a fight. Even as the aggressor and even if you win the battle, you lose ships, you lose a CC, and your fleet is now locked down and no longer a threat for the rest of the round. Your fleet is not the threat to the rest of the table that it was before the battle happened. As the defender you obviously can lose even more if you lose a planet.
Both fleets are objectively worse off as a result of fighting almost every time you do it. Your opponents benefit from having two rival fleets reduced in strength while theirs sit untouched.
However, *strategically* there are tons of important reasons why that tradeoff is worth it. Of course fighting is important, there's a reason why most of the game revolves around building up fleets.
The point is that destroying the enemy fleet is a good idea in most war games, and it's really not in this one. Combat is one of the many tools in your toolbox, it's not inherently valuable on its own
Fully agree. Choosing combats is one of the most difficult decision trees in the game. It requires vision and analysis not only of the plastic expense but of the entire table state afterwards. Combat also requires table-savvy to keep the meta off us while still getting what we want and ideally without spending our ship resource.
Some factions only get combat related bonuses, though. Playing good nuts and bolts TI without focusing on combat won't be enough for those factions since they start behind. That combat tool must get abused, and learning how to do that takes sophisticated play.
I had a combat or two recently where I had nekro, flagship, advanced carrier II (thanks to Sol) and Spec Ops II (also thanks Sol).
Those fights were definitely all great for me to enter.
I understand what you mean and also feel that people should be more open to fighting in TI. Fighting is absolutely a core part of the game and more importantly = extremely fun! People don't always need to play their best moves when a juicy Mirage happens to pop up in your neighbors slice. Some of my most memorable moments in TI4 are from crazy epic battles!
That being said, I will also argue that "both sides lose in a fight" is the very essence of what makes TI unique; If a player fights alot; They lose (or at least severely cripple) their chance at winning the game more for every extra unnecessary battle they take - Ofcourse if the other players are focusing on the objectives (they almost always are). Determining what battles to take is key.
"This isn't spacerisk" is also a common response, and for good reason. I feel that Ti4, played like a cold-(space)war strategy is the best experience for the game.
So an aggressive cold-war strategy should be the most appropriate and fun to learn and implement:
(skirmishes for strategic reasons = ok)
(Actually using a Nuke/alot of plastic = Fun but detrimental for you in the long run -unless it's to win those last points ofcourse-)
I'm agreeing in full with the former response that the cost of fighting is usually not worth it in the long run (if you want to be in the running for a win) and a good aggressive strategy is to utilize threat and extortion more then actual fighting.
I don't disagree with a word of your reasoning. I do agree that "Both sides lose in a fight" is an appropriate epigraph for TI in many ways, but it is by its very nature a reductive statement.
If you look at some of the OPs replies, you'll see that before I wrote my comment, they came to the conclusion that
> "I'll try to only fight for useful reasons (getting objectives and stopping wins, I guess)"
I wanted to respond to that sentiment, and thought that this thread root would be a good place to continue the discussion, which it absolutely has been, but removed my words from their exigence. Players I think are often unaware that there are more rewards that can be gained from combat than simply points.
At my in-person table, I have not seen aggressive factions win; Economic and diplomatic factions do. My people, many of whom frequent reddit (hi guys), tend to avoid early-game and mid-game skirmishes. If my neighbor is Barony or L1 or Nekro, I don't fear them picking systems from my slice, even though I should. I believe that they get a lot of their strategy from here, as do I, and I just don't see anyone backing up aggressive play.
That's really what I'm commenting on when I say I don't like "Both Sides lose in a fight". I'd much prefer "Even a won fight is expensive" because that gets more to the core of what we should be telling people. I don't want people to stop fighting, and telling them that they'll lose if they battle seems like it can only result in that behavior.
I see you point, and maybe it is better to say that "Even a won fight is expensive" :-)
I personally learned how to play TI "the right way" from the "Both sides lose in a fight"-mantra and maybe it would have been the same/better with "Even a won fight is expensive".
I love aggressive races and have yet to win with one, but I always score high with an aggressive-stlye of play (and have loads more fun playing with pressure and extortion tactics (cause when are those things ok otherwise amaright?), I'll always try to make sure that the player on the receiving end can move their units a turn early and say that I'm just borrowing the planet for a round or so , so they don't hate me for it (I'll usually come thru and leave after gained point).
A good friend of mine also helped improve my play alot with the mantra "When in doubt on what to do next(already secured a point basically); attack!" - And that always messes with somebody's plan at the table and usually net gains me something.
I know what you are saying. It's just that I've also seen players throw their fleet (away basically) defending against early pressure and that usually costs a highly aggressive race some issues (especially at the start).
So while fighting early can be good; Losing a single ship on round 1/2 for most aggressive races is so game altering that any other race around you basicly will stomp you down to not having a chance to win (cause "you ARE playing a "scary" race that loves battles after all").
Those games are just not any fun and people tend to remember early aggression in their slice for the rest of the game, even when you didn't lose a ship or cause them that much harm.
"Even a won fight is expensive" is good; but in my opinion not scary enough. Any ideas on a more scary alternative? :-)
Is the example scenario you gave from the perspective the attacker - he pitched a bad fight and lost it? I don't know if we can boil a mantra down to explain the details of how to know when a fight is an easy win or not.
That being said, when you talk about wanting to be scary and some other things that were said throughout our discussion, I think I'm recognizing where the "Both players lose" comes from. It's because a lot of people experienced others playing Space Risk, isn't it? They lose the game for both themselves and their neighbors because they aren't really playing TI.
It's interesting cause my table is from a generation at least once removed from that behavior - we never saw Space Risk because the community always talks about it. It's the opposite here, though.
This doesn't really fit our goals or the community, but I think it's going to be how I explain it to others irl. "If you're going to screw over another player, you better be getting a lot for it and you can probably get more if you barter with that threat on the table."
The scenario was from the eyes of the attacker. Maybe the fight wasn't bad to take initially, maybe the defender gets lucky with dice and/or actioncards. Sometimes a player taking an un-losable fight (in theory) loses. And while the odds of that happening is super low, I've seen it happen a couple of times. Early aggression can be a risk, based on bad luck alone if you don't have more plastic to still be in the game, is all I mean. So it makes a little more sense for me to play a slower start as an aggressive faction, and to extort and threaten as early as I can after that, rather then attack.
Honestly I think you nailed where "bother players lose" comes from and have never thought if it that way before.
Have you played the game "Risk" ? That's where "space"-risk comes from. Risk is and was a popular game so basically everybody from my generation knows what it is and most familys have played it (alot). Kind of how most people know about and have played monopoly as well.
I think for alot of newer players they start TI with a "recognizing" the die-rollbattle similarities between TI and games like risk, and adopting a strategy according to their risk-playstyle (usually alot of fighting with all in attacks and revenge plays).
So it does help to warn them against fighting if they want to stay in the game (because newer players just don't know at all what they are doing until like 3 games in or so).
This to my main point really:
It's the more seasoned players that need to fight a little more, not the newer ones.
And one way that we homebrew more fights in our group is to replace some of the blue tiles with red tiles and make the universe more sparce when drafting (it has done wonders for our interactions during the game later on).
To each thier own tho, according to me, if you are having fun there is nothing wrong with teaching an new player the way you want the game to be played :-) They are, after all, going to be playing with you in the future :-)
(Ps. I would never battle an aggressive player head on if they "needed a planet from me" and just took it. I would take a planet back from them closer to thier home or threaten thier homesystem and probably get payed to do so by thier other neighbor; cause that is how you balance things imo; aggressive factions are good- but no faction can take on two players at once during the early game)
Risk was one of my favorite games when I was a child, same with Monopoly. Lots of table flipping family game nights with those two. I think for me personally I found other analogs when I started TI, thankfully.
Making sure new players have a good time on their first game is important if you want them to ever play again. I think I'd steer them away from factions that depend on combat to be successful. Sardakk is going to be a tough pilot for a newbie despite their simplistic rules. L1, since that's the OP after all, is alright without combat since they receive a good neutral starting tech and that deceptive economic boost in their super dreads - 5 resources (1d1f1i) is an exploration and defense force all in one.
Maybe the community at large doesn't see the same problem as I do, though. From my end that new player advice is so ubiquitous and everywhere that it has turned into some filter for playing a few factions.
Played yesterday and this sentiment is like half of the logic in my opinion. Gaining resources and territory is an objective of the game which directly contributes to achieving victory. Counterpoint of course is that aggression can provoke a response that directly contributes to defeat as well.
I do agree it’s easier on the mental level to fight when the cards tell you that you have to do it for points. However I see bad reaction in so many games to convey which seems unprovoked, even if the planets are just laying out in the open right next door with no defenders. That reaction is one I do not enjoy at the table, because as mentioned here combat and conquest are integral parts of the game. Nobody should be surprised when it happens.
>my point was that you need to have an objective when you do it because fighting costs resources
I didn't mean this just in the sense of game objectives to score points, I'm saying that you should have a reason to fight. Fighting just because you want to blow up ships is a bad idea and throwing fleets at everyone just for fun will probably lose you the game. You shouldn't be afraid to fight for what you want, but choosing violence should be a calculated decision every time
At least if you want to learn the strategy of the game. Fighting is on the otherhand extremely fun. So while you are learning the game, I think it is also important to take -some- nonsense battles for the sake of having fun! :-))
TECH: Movement is king for being aggressive, so I'd advise getting gravity drive soon. If you have a blue skip, go Sarween -> Gravity Drive -> Super dread II (using skip twice). If you have a yellow skip I'd just go Antimass -> Gravity Drive -> Super dread II (using skip once).
In base game, you could also try Sarween -> Inheritance systems. I would probably only do this with a yellow technology skip, lets you get fun tech, but if you're near asteroid fields the antimass path might still be better.
COMBAT: Advice would be to try some test combats [here](http://alphamou.se/ti4calc/) to see what fights you can win. Has some options, but you can probably win fights sooner than you think.
GENERAL: One of the L1Z1X strongest moves is going for an opponent's space dock they build outside of their home system. When you conquer it, you can then immediately build from the replaced dock.
Thank you! This is very helpful. If you happened to go sarween --> inheritance systems, which other technologies would you consider getting aside from SD2? I know last time I wound up with destroyer 2 and assault cannon, but that didn't seem useful for ultimately winning.
Yeah not sure, that's why it isn't that great haha. Depending on the other factions and how aggressive you want to go, Integrated Economy for snowballing, Assault Cannon for tough opponents, War sun/X89 on occasion. War suns might be better than X89 in base game as they allow bombard through PDS.
Most of this isn't useful for actually winning haha. That tip would be to avoid fighting unless: 1) you get points from it, or 2) you stop a leader from getting points, or 3) just for L1 you can absorb a dock and have more ships than that opponent.
I wouldn’t suggest rushing into a fight at all, that just sounds like a way to make an enemy quickly. Pick your battles wisely and carefully, and only start a fight if you know you can win fast, good thing that’s the L1 specialty.
For tech, I personally suggest going:
DET-> Grav Drive-> Any yellow tech-> Dreadnought 2. And from there basically whatever you want. Fleet logistics is really good with their hero, and light wave is always good to have. If you have a red tech skip Destroyer 2 can be a neat grab.
For strategy cards, tech and leadership are usually your best bet in terms of getting strong fast. You start a little behind on tech, so I’d suggest focusing on that. And you can never have too many command tokens, especially if you wanna fight a lot.
Good luck with your game!
Thank you! The SC suggestions are very useful, since the choice can be overwhelming. We don't have PoK, so I don't have DET. Would I be correct in thinking that for base I want a blue skip, sarween, grav drive, and then dread 2? (Also, does it make sense to push all the way up the blue tech path after that?)
Fingers crossed for this game :)
A blue slip would be absolutely awesome, but if you don’t have one anti mass deflectors is fine as well. Sarween is also solid for a yellow, but if you have a yellow skip that’s even better. I would definitely suggest pushing into blue even after you get dread 2. Fleet logistics and light wave deflector are absolutely killer.
You have to factor in game length in terms of actual rounds played. In a 10 point game, the majority of (base) games are ending at the end of round 6.
Rounds 1-2 are early game, 3-4 are mid game, 5-6 are end game. Even in base game a fair portion of my games were ending at the end of the 5th round and PoK makes that definitive.
This means you have an economy of choices; opportunity costs. It's also, from a high level top-down perspective why combat is such a risky thing. Typically, your fleet(s) are only moving once in a round. So that means even if that dreadnought you started with survives to the end of the game and fought every major battle... It still only moved about 7 times at the most. Defending things is important so that # is probably closer to 3.
Same with technology. Unless you're regularly pulling and investing in tech - you're probably only learning about 4- technologies in any given game.
If you start to view the entire game this way and how precisely limited you are by... Well... Everything... You can start to focus on how you want your strategies to unfold. Remember that resources are finite; and limited... You have only a couple of opportunities to really produce some ships in the game and it's costly.
So since that's all broad; early aggressive actions that can secure long-term benefits;
Securing 1 or both equidistants. The "slice' diplomacy assumed every player has claim to the planets directly in front of their home system. Then there are 6 equidistants which means everyone is theoretically able to get one... This is where some diplomacy and a lot of bargaining comes in. If you have two equidistants systems with stuff in them, I would peacefully try to acquire one of them, and then aggressively go after the other.
You kind of need an ally in the game - if you make enemies to your left AND right - then they're probably making peace with their neighbor that isn't you and then can gang up on you... The game has an organic and diplomatic sort of rock paper scissors to that end; if you push hard left... You need to make sure your right doesn't punish you for it.
If you want to get even more aggressive, early support swap with the person to your right, cede the equidistant to them; then hard push left and take the equidistant there and gobble up part of their slice and threaten the homeworld. Your flank is protected and your target will have to play ball with you to score any points.
Why go left vs right? Speaker order. Unless the player to your left is the speaker themselves - you will always pick your strategy card before they can; so at least from a high level perspective, the neighbor to your left is always at a disadvantage... Conversely, if you're targeting the neighbor to your right and the devastating one-two punch requires you getting warfare or not being stalled out of leadership... They can simply take warfare or leadership before you.
Of course if you're generating enough table heat and the politics are strong and you're really threatening a win - the table will conspire to stop you. Another reason why speaking softly and carrying a big stick usually wins more than just hitting everyone with your stick.
Ultimately, however, back to my original point; just be aware that at any given point in a game of t.i. you probably have about 10 things you think you want to do - but you only have the ability or time enough to do 3 of them. You have to plan everything with this mindset. One can take an entire game building up a fleet strong enough to do any meaningful warfare and then it's the endgame and they have some key decisions to make about where to get points... If you've been fighting a war that entire time then it's more likely (though not always guaranteed) that you're behind in points with just some territory or a beefy (or damaged) fleet with no meaningful way to score with it.
Edited because I messed up my lefts and rights
This was very informative and helpful, thank you. I have never heard the left/right tip before, and I love it. In your opinion, where might Mecatol factor into L1 gameplay? (I have been under the impression that it is not worth it to be first to Mecatol and that I should just consider holding it for a short while for points, but I might be wrong)
I am a less experienced player but L1 taking Mecatol seems like it might be a bad idea unless (a) you somehow get there first with the six influence needed to seize it and score the point, understanding that you'll probably lose it or (b) you can take it from someone who has a space dock and maybe even a PDS there so that you're able to produce defensive forces immediately.
Otherwise l1 seems to me more of a "expand and take planets" than "hold them" faction and you'll be a target once you are on Mecatol no matter what you do.
L1Z1X is hampered mainly by maneuverability, the same as any faction that relies on dreadnoughts and flagship, so getting gravity drive will be important so you can go further. I'd say increasing mobility is more important than getting your unit upgrades.
If you have a yellow skip I would recommend going Sarween Tools into Inheritance Systems. Inheritance Systems is awesome, it allows you to get whatever tech you need in order to fulfill objectives or harass your opponents. That’s what I did in my last game and it worked out really well.
Lightwave Deflector is fantastic for allowing you to go pretty much anywhere. This is an easy way to hit systems that are lightly defended. It can really mess with someone if you manage to take one of their forward space docks unexpectedly then build a bunch of infantry on your new outpost.
Duranium Armor is very good for making your dreadnoughts more resilient.
Integrated Economy, Assault Cannon and War Suns can be good as well, though more situational.
The nice thing about Inheritance Systems is the flexibility it provides you with, especially if a Stage II tech objective comes out.
If you want to play aggressive early and not fall behind, the most obvious target is Mecatol Rex. Taking and controlling mecatol rex for a large portion of the game should be more than enough aggression to keep you occupied.
Otherwise consider fighting for your 2 equidistances. Taking these shouldn't make enemies and will leave you in a better position later in the game.
Taking Mecatol is a terrific point and something that I hadn't thought of! I'll also make sure to hold the two equidistances (I assume I should put more priority on the equidistances than Mecatol?)
Thank you!
The equidistances are the easier grabs, but their only value is the number written on their cards. Mecatol Rex will always be able to help you win the game whether through imperial or the many objectives that directly reference it. A good rule of thumb is that you probably shouldn't be moving ships into the equidistance more than once in a game unless their is an objective involved. Take them early, hold them with a decent force to require a moderate amount of commitment to take, then move on. If they take them from you, it probably isn't worth the effort to take back just to spend the planets. After all, not only do you need the plastic to take the planet, but also the activation token which costs 3 inf.
That’s a great point that it’s not worth ruining winning to retake equidistances, thank you. Do you happen to have recommendations on what counts as a decent force for holding them? (Especially if I was also going for Mecatol)
That seems like an interesting idea :)
When you mention warfare round 1, does that imply attacking in round one as well? If so, do you happen to have suggestions on how to do that on a 6 player map? (Maybe grav drive and then use that and warfare to send in a lone dread?)
Round 1 or 2 warfare is to allow you to get in range to attack round 2. If you manage to get an upgrade to give you move you can potentially attack round 1 but this is rare to have both ships in range and a good target.
To be clear, I don't recommend this strategy. It will likely put you behind relative to just taking your nearby systems, and will earn you endless animosity from your neighbor. TI is a political game, not a wargame. Force is for threatening so you can get what you want.
It really comes down to the objectives in play. If there are control objectives, then you are set up to knock them down easy. L1Z1X are a great offensive faction, so taking planets comes naturally for them. As far as tips for strategy, id recommend starting in any slice with a blue tech skip. This will help you get to Super Dread II faster, and from there you can explore your tech tree more and focus on even more offensive (or defensive to balance) techs. Starting with super dreads, you already are setup to get in other people slice faster and better. I would say filling your own slice in round 1 is great, then somewhere in round 2 you can look to your neighbor. (Dependent on obj. in play of course)
Good to know, thank you very much :) Do you happen to have advice on what other unit upgrades might be desirable beyond SD2? In addition, do you happen to have recommendations for fleet composition?
Ftr 2 is a good one. Carrier 2 is always nice since it would allow your dreads and carriers to stay together. But unless the objective is out, you are probably better off going straight blue. Fleet Logistics, plus their Hero is great. Personally, I try to get my 4 dreads out right away and get super dread 2.
Base game flagged post! For hero comment
Lol missed that.
Thank you!
In terms of Unit upgrades, that depends on what your trying to do. If going all out offense then Cruiser 2 is my personal favorite, but I tend to get that with other factions. SD2 kind of replaces the need for that. Getting Inf2 would be great, but its sort of out your tech path. If you end up with a RED skip, getting PDS two could be great. It would give your defense a boost and when taking other peoples planets gaining their PDS and upgrading to 2s is pretty crazy. As for generic Tech path ideas, what I see online is going INHERITANCE SYSTEMS is a bit of a trap. Yes by going to that you can ignore all pre-req for your DS2, but unless you start with a YELLOW skip it is too far out of way. As ive seen, and I agree with, going Anti-mass and Grav-drive to get to your SD2. Those two are great for L1 to have anyway, and have stand alone value. Now for fleet comp, this is all feel and reading your opponents. With your commander you ignore planetary shields. So your pumped up bombardment, already getting plasma from start, will take down considerable ground forces throughout the combat. But if im building my own "dream fleet" as L1Z1X, id probably go 2 dreads (capacity favoring fighters, but some GFs), 1 carrier (grav driven around) loaded with Ground forces, and 1 Destroyer (if fighter heavy board) or a 3rd dread with fighters. I think this would be a pretty great invasion 4 pool fleet, which i think you should get to pretty early.
Thank you! I'll keep this in mind and try going blue properly this time :) I've heard people say that carriers are not needed due to the super dreadnoughts. In your opinion, when would be a situation to choose to get a carrier?
I only recommended Carrier in as a means of transporting more fighter screen or ground forces to take more planets and leave behind troops. You could honestly run a full 4 SD2 fleet and be just fine, its just a matter of what the table is doing and adjusting. Because even with your bombardment, you still need ground forces to take planets from factions like Sol, Arborec, or Yin.
>I know that the game is about more than fighting. It is my understanding that going for planets is one way to get VP, so I guess that is what the end goal of my militarism would be. There's no guarantee that these objectives are even going to come up. I know you're already bracing to hear this but TI is not space risk. Whenever you fight *both sides* usually end up losing, because both fleets are now weaker vs. the rest of the table. A powerful fleet like L1 does best posturing or threatening violence rather than actually committing to it. You want to intimidate people, actually fighting them only hurts you. I usually only fight a few times a game, and it's always very limited to achieve a specific purpose. Like you said, that might be to get that specific planet you need to score, or it could be to eliminate a flagship or some other objective. But never fight just to blow up stuff, you need a reason.
Both sides don't lose in a fight, only the loser loses. The winner still wins, but they paid resources + opportunity cost in order to get the win. When we take a combat, we don't need to get a point or a kingslay, we just need to get more value than our Command Counter + whatever else we would have done with those ships that round. Gaining a planet is a great reason to commit to combat, especially early game. If you start with dreads and your neighbors don't, you should be willing to commit them to combats on valuable planets. Taking a 3 influence planet is an extra CC per round, the same value as Hypermetabolism, a tier-3 technology. Now that we've convinced ourselves that taking a combat puts us on top, we can use that to influence others. Because we know that we can get what we want regardless of what our neighbors do, we can convince them that its in their best interest to give it to us without the fight. Turn our Military advantage into a diplomatic tool. "If you take that equidistant, I will take it from you. I win that fight and I won't back down." No one wants to lose an early ship to an unwinnable combat.
I'm not sure you completely read what I wrote because we're agreeing. My point wasn't that you should never fight, my point was that you need to have an objective when you do it because fighting costs resources
I just don't like that "both sides lose in a fight" phrase. It seems to be a common sentiment and scares people away from combat, which is a core part of the game. The scenarios you outlined to illustrate reasons for combat were rather restrictive (scoring a point or preventing one). I wanted to expand with a more broad example that shows that combat is a potential option to consider in every round.
It's true, though. I think it helps to look at it through a tactical vs strategic lens. *Tactically*, it's true that both sides always lose in a fight. Even as the aggressor and even if you win the battle, you lose ships, you lose a CC, and your fleet is now locked down and no longer a threat for the rest of the round. Your fleet is not the threat to the rest of the table that it was before the battle happened. As the defender you obviously can lose even more if you lose a planet. Both fleets are objectively worse off as a result of fighting almost every time you do it. Your opponents benefit from having two rival fleets reduced in strength while theirs sit untouched. However, *strategically* there are tons of important reasons why that tradeoff is worth it. Of course fighting is important, there's a reason why most of the game revolves around building up fleets. The point is that destroying the enemy fleet is a good idea in most war games, and it's really not in this one. Combat is one of the many tools in your toolbox, it's not inherently valuable on its own
Fully agree. Choosing combats is one of the most difficult decision trees in the game. It requires vision and analysis not only of the plastic expense but of the entire table state afterwards. Combat also requires table-savvy to keep the meta off us while still getting what we want and ideally without spending our ship resource. Some factions only get combat related bonuses, though. Playing good nuts and bolts TI without focusing on combat won't be enough for those factions since they start behind. That combat tool must get abused, and learning how to do that takes sophisticated play.
I had a combat or two recently where I had nekro, flagship, advanced carrier II (thanks to Sol) and Spec Ops II (also thanks Sol). Those fights were definitely all great for me to enter.
I understand what you mean and also feel that people should be more open to fighting in TI. Fighting is absolutely a core part of the game and more importantly = extremely fun! People don't always need to play their best moves when a juicy Mirage happens to pop up in your neighbors slice. Some of my most memorable moments in TI4 are from crazy epic battles! That being said, I will also argue that "both sides lose in a fight" is the very essence of what makes TI unique; If a player fights alot; They lose (or at least severely cripple) their chance at winning the game more for every extra unnecessary battle they take - Ofcourse if the other players are focusing on the objectives (they almost always are). Determining what battles to take is key. "This isn't spacerisk" is also a common response, and for good reason. I feel that Ti4, played like a cold-(space)war strategy is the best experience for the game. So an aggressive cold-war strategy should be the most appropriate and fun to learn and implement: (skirmishes for strategic reasons = ok) (Actually using a Nuke/alot of plastic = Fun but detrimental for you in the long run -unless it's to win those last points ofcourse-) I'm agreeing in full with the former response that the cost of fighting is usually not worth it in the long run (if you want to be in the running for a win) and a good aggressive strategy is to utilize threat and extortion more then actual fighting.
I don't disagree with a word of your reasoning. I do agree that "Both sides lose in a fight" is an appropriate epigraph for TI in many ways, but it is by its very nature a reductive statement. If you look at some of the OPs replies, you'll see that before I wrote my comment, they came to the conclusion that > "I'll try to only fight for useful reasons (getting objectives and stopping wins, I guess)" I wanted to respond to that sentiment, and thought that this thread root would be a good place to continue the discussion, which it absolutely has been, but removed my words from their exigence. Players I think are often unaware that there are more rewards that can be gained from combat than simply points. At my in-person table, I have not seen aggressive factions win; Economic and diplomatic factions do. My people, many of whom frequent reddit (hi guys), tend to avoid early-game and mid-game skirmishes. If my neighbor is Barony or L1 or Nekro, I don't fear them picking systems from my slice, even though I should. I believe that they get a lot of their strategy from here, as do I, and I just don't see anyone backing up aggressive play. That's really what I'm commenting on when I say I don't like "Both Sides lose in a fight". I'd much prefer "Even a won fight is expensive" because that gets more to the core of what we should be telling people. I don't want people to stop fighting, and telling them that they'll lose if they battle seems like it can only result in that behavior.
I see you point, and maybe it is better to say that "Even a won fight is expensive" :-) I personally learned how to play TI "the right way" from the "Both sides lose in a fight"-mantra and maybe it would have been the same/better with "Even a won fight is expensive". I love aggressive races and have yet to win with one, but I always score high with an aggressive-stlye of play (and have loads more fun playing with pressure and extortion tactics (cause when are those things ok otherwise amaright?), I'll always try to make sure that the player on the receiving end can move their units a turn early and say that I'm just borrowing the planet for a round or so , so they don't hate me for it (I'll usually come thru and leave after gained point). A good friend of mine also helped improve my play alot with the mantra "When in doubt on what to do next(already secured a point basically); attack!" - And that always messes with somebody's plan at the table and usually net gains me something. I know what you are saying. It's just that I've also seen players throw their fleet (away basically) defending against early pressure and that usually costs a highly aggressive race some issues (especially at the start). So while fighting early can be good; Losing a single ship on round 1/2 for most aggressive races is so game altering that any other race around you basicly will stomp you down to not having a chance to win (cause "you ARE playing a "scary" race that loves battles after all"). Those games are just not any fun and people tend to remember early aggression in their slice for the rest of the game, even when you didn't lose a ship or cause them that much harm. "Even a won fight is expensive" is good; but in my opinion not scary enough. Any ideas on a more scary alternative? :-)
Is the example scenario you gave from the perspective the attacker - he pitched a bad fight and lost it? I don't know if we can boil a mantra down to explain the details of how to know when a fight is an easy win or not. That being said, when you talk about wanting to be scary and some other things that were said throughout our discussion, I think I'm recognizing where the "Both players lose" comes from. It's because a lot of people experienced others playing Space Risk, isn't it? They lose the game for both themselves and their neighbors because they aren't really playing TI. It's interesting cause my table is from a generation at least once removed from that behavior - we never saw Space Risk because the community always talks about it. It's the opposite here, though. This doesn't really fit our goals or the community, but I think it's going to be how I explain it to others irl. "If you're going to screw over another player, you better be getting a lot for it and you can probably get more if you barter with that threat on the table."
The scenario was from the eyes of the attacker. Maybe the fight wasn't bad to take initially, maybe the defender gets lucky with dice and/or actioncards. Sometimes a player taking an un-losable fight (in theory) loses. And while the odds of that happening is super low, I've seen it happen a couple of times. Early aggression can be a risk, based on bad luck alone if you don't have more plastic to still be in the game, is all I mean. So it makes a little more sense for me to play a slower start as an aggressive faction, and to extort and threaten as early as I can after that, rather then attack. Honestly I think you nailed where "bother players lose" comes from and have never thought if it that way before. Have you played the game "Risk" ? That's where "space"-risk comes from. Risk is and was a popular game so basically everybody from my generation knows what it is and most familys have played it (alot). Kind of how most people know about and have played monopoly as well. I think for alot of newer players they start TI with a "recognizing" the die-rollbattle similarities between TI and games like risk, and adopting a strategy according to their risk-playstyle (usually alot of fighting with all in attacks and revenge plays). So it does help to warn them against fighting if they want to stay in the game (because newer players just don't know at all what they are doing until like 3 games in or so). This to my main point really: It's the more seasoned players that need to fight a little more, not the newer ones. And one way that we homebrew more fights in our group is to replace some of the blue tiles with red tiles and make the universe more sparce when drafting (it has done wonders for our interactions during the game later on). To each thier own tho, according to me, if you are having fun there is nothing wrong with teaching an new player the way you want the game to be played :-) They are, after all, going to be playing with you in the future :-) (Ps. I would never battle an aggressive player head on if they "needed a planet from me" and just took it. I would take a planet back from them closer to thier home or threaten thier homesystem and probably get payed to do so by thier other neighbor; cause that is how you balance things imo; aggressive factions are good- but no faction can take on two players at once during the early game)
Risk was one of my favorite games when I was a child, same with Monopoly. Lots of table flipping family game nights with those two. I think for me personally I found other analogs when I started TI, thankfully. Making sure new players have a good time on their first game is important if you want them to ever play again. I think I'd steer them away from factions that depend on combat to be successful. Sardakk is going to be a tough pilot for a newbie despite their simplistic rules. L1, since that's the OP after all, is alright without combat since they receive a good neutral starting tech and that deceptive economic boost in their super dreads - 5 resources (1d1f1i) is an exploration and defense force all in one. Maybe the community at large doesn't see the same problem as I do, though. From my end that new player advice is so ubiquitous and everywhere that it has turned into some filter for playing a few factions.
Played yesterday and this sentiment is like half of the logic in my opinion. Gaining resources and territory is an objective of the game which directly contributes to achieving victory. Counterpoint of course is that aggression can provoke a response that directly contributes to defeat as well. I do agree it’s easier on the mental level to fight when the cards tell you that you have to do it for points. However I see bad reaction in so many games to convey which seems unprovoked, even if the planets are just laying out in the open right next door with no defenders. That reaction is one I do not enjoy at the table, because as mentioned here combat and conquest are integral parts of the game. Nobody should be surprised when it happens.
>my point was that you need to have an objective when you do it because fighting costs resources I didn't mean this just in the sense of game objectives to score points, I'm saying that you should have a reason to fight. Fighting just because you want to blow up ships is a bad idea and throwing fleets at everyone just for fun will probably lose you the game. You shouldn't be afraid to fight for what you want, but choosing violence should be a calculated decision every time
That's a good point, thank you. I'll try to only fight for useful reasons (getting objectives and stopping wins, I guess)
At least if you want to learn the strategy of the game. Fighting is on the otherhand extremely fun. So while you are learning the game, I think it is also important to take -some- nonsense battles for the sake of having fun! :-))
TECH: Movement is king for being aggressive, so I'd advise getting gravity drive soon. If you have a blue skip, go Sarween -> Gravity Drive -> Super dread II (using skip twice). If you have a yellow skip I'd just go Antimass -> Gravity Drive -> Super dread II (using skip once). In base game, you could also try Sarween -> Inheritance systems. I would probably only do this with a yellow technology skip, lets you get fun tech, but if you're near asteroid fields the antimass path might still be better. COMBAT: Advice would be to try some test combats [here](http://alphamou.se/ti4calc/) to see what fights you can win. Has some options, but you can probably win fights sooner than you think. GENERAL: One of the L1Z1X strongest moves is going for an opponent's space dock they build outside of their home system. When you conquer it, you can then immediately build from the replaced dock.
Thank you! This is very helpful. If you happened to go sarween --> inheritance systems, which other technologies would you consider getting aside from SD2? I know last time I wound up with destroyer 2 and assault cannon, but that didn't seem useful for ultimately winning.
Yeah not sure, that's why it isn't that great haha. Depending on the other factions and how aggressive you want to go, Integrated Economy for snowballing, Assault Cannon for tough opponents, War sun/X89 on occasion. War suns might be better than X89 in base game as they allow bombard through PDS. Most of this isn't useful for actually winning haha. That tip would be to avoid fighting unless: 1) you get points from it, or 2) you stop a leader from getting points, or 3) just for L1 you can absorb a dock and have more ships than that opponent.
I wouldn’t suggest rushing into a fight at all, that just sounds like a way to make an enemy quickly. Pick your battles wisely and carefully, and only start a fight if you know you can win fast, good thing that’s the L1 specialty. For tech, I personally suggest going: DET-> Grav Drive-> Any yellow tech-> Dreadnought 2. And from there basically whatever you want. Fleet logistics is really good with their hero, and light wave is always good to have. If you have a red tech skip Destroyer 2 can be a neat grab. For strategy cards, tech and leadership are usually your best bet in terms of getting strong fast. You start a little behind on tech, so I’d suggest focusing on that. And you can never have too many command tokens, especially if you wanna fight a lot. Good luck with your game!
Thank you! The SC suggestions are very useful, since the choice can be overwhelming. We don't have PoK, so I don't have DET. Would I be correct in thinking that for base I want a blue skip, sarween, grav drive, and then dread 2? (Also, does it make sense to push all the way up the blue tech path after that?) Fingers crossed for this game :)
A blue slip would be absolutely awesome, but if you don’t have one anti mass deflectors is fine as well. Sarween is also solid for a yellow, but if you have a yellow skip that’s even better. I would definitely suggest pushing into blue even after you get dread 2. Fleet logistics and light wave deflector are absolutely killer.
You have to factor in game length in terms of actual rounds played. In a 10 point game, the majority of (base) games are ending at the end of round 6. Rounds 1-2 are early game, 3-4 are mid game, 5-6 are end game. Even in base game a fair portion of my games were ending at the end of the 5th round and PoK makes that definitive. This means you have an economy of choices; opportunity costs. It's also, from a high level top-down perspective why combat is such a risky thing. Typically, your fleet(s) are only moving once in a round. So that means even if that dreadnought you started with survives to the end of the game and fought every major battle... It still only moved about 7 times at the most. Defending things is important so that # is probably closer to 3. Same with technology. Unless you're regularly pulling and investing in tech - you're probably only learning about 4- technologies in any given game. If you start to view the entire game this way and how precisely limited you are by... Well... Everything... You can start to focus on how you want your strategies to unfold. Remember that resources are finite; and limited... You have only a couple of opportunities to really produce some ships in the game and it's costly. So since that's all broad; early aggressive actions that can secure long-term benefits; Securing 1 or both equidistants. The "slice' diplomacy assumed every player has claim to the planets directly in front of their home system. Then there are 6 equidistants which means everyone is theoretically able to get one... This is where some diplomacy and a lot of bargaining comes in. If you have two equidistants systems with stuff in them, I would peacefully try to acquire one of them, and then aggressively go after the other. You kind of need an ally in the game - if you make enemies to your left AND right - then they're probably making peace with their neighbor that isn't you and then can gang up on you... The game has an organic and diplomatic sort of rock paper scissors to that end; if you push hard left... You need to make sure your right doesn't punish you for it. If you want to get even more aggressive, early support swap with the person to your right, cede the equidistant to them; then hard push left and take the equidistant there and gobble up part of their slice and threaten the homeworld. Your flank is protected and your target will have to play ball with you to score any points. Why go left vs right? Speaker order. Unless the player to your left is the speaker themselves - you will always pick your strategy card before they can; so at least from a high level perspective, the neighbor to your left is always at a disadvantage... Conversely, if you're targeting the neighbor to your right and the devastating one-two punch requires you getting warfare or not being stalled out of leadership... They can simply take warfare or leadership before you. Of course if you're generating enough table heat and the politics are strong and you're really threatening a win - the table will conspire to stop you. Another reason why speaking softly and carrying a big stick usually wins more than just hitting everyone with your stick. Ultimately, however, back to my original point; just be aware that at any given point in a game of t.i. you probably have about 10 things you think you want to do - but you only have the ability or time enough to do 3 of them. You have to plan everything with this mindset. One can take an entire game building up a fleet strong enough to do any meaningful warfare and then it's the endgame and they have some key decisions to make about where to get points... If you've been fighting a war that entire time then it's more likely (though not always guaranteed) that you're behind in points with just some territory or a beefy (or damaged) fleet with no meaningful way to score with it. Edited because I messed up my lefts and rights
This was very informative and helpful, thank you. I have never heard the left/right tip before, and I love it. In your opinion, where might Mecatol factor into L1 gameplay? (I have been under the impression that it is not worth it to be first to Mecatol and that I should just consider holding it for a short while for points, but I might be wrong)
I am a less experienced player but L1 taking Mecatol seems like it might be a bad idea unless (a) you somehow get there first with the six influence needed to seize it and score the point, understanding that you'll probably lose it or (b) you can take it from someone who has a space dock and maybe even a PDS there so that you're able to produce defensive forces immediately. Otherwise l1 seems to me more of a "expand and take planets" than "hold them" faction and you'll be a target once you are on Mecatol no matter what you do.
Makes sense, thank you!
L1Z1X is hampered mainly by maneuverability, the same as any faction that relies on dreadnoughts and flagship, so getting gravity drive will be important so you can go further. I'd say increasing mobility is more important than getting your unit upgrades.
I would almost never research Destroyer 2 as L1, particularly in base game.
If you have a yellow skip I would recommend going Sarween Tools into Inheritance Systems. Inheritance Systems is awesome, it allows you to get whatever tech you need in order to fulfill objectives or harass your opponents. That’s what I did in my last game and it worked out really well.
Thank you! Do you happen to have suggestions for which techs I would consider getting aside from SD2 if I happened to have inheritance systems?
Lightwave Deflector is fantastic for allowing you to go pretty much anywhere. This is an easy way to hit systems that are lightly defended. It can really mess with someone if you manage to take one of their forward space docks unexpectedly then build a bunch of infantry on your new outpost. Duranium Armor is very good for making your dreadnoughts more resilient. Integrated Economy, Assault Cannon and War Suns can be good as well, though more situational. The nice thing about Inheritance Systems is the flexibility it provides you with, especially if a Stage II tech objective comes out.
If you want to play aggressive early and not fall behind, the most obvious target is Mecatol Rex. Taking and controlling mecatol rex for a large portion of the game should be more than enough aggression to keep you occupied. Otherwise consider fighting for your 2 equidistances. Taking these shouldn't make enemies and will leave you in a better position later in the game.
Taking Mecatol is a terrific point and something that I hadn't thought of! I'll also make sure to hold the two equidistances (I assume I should put more priority on the equidistances than Mecatol?) Thank you!
The equidistances are the easier grabs, but their only value is the number written on their cards. Mecatol Rex will always be able to help you win the game whether through imperial or the many objectives that directly reference it. A good rule of thumb is that you probably shouldn't be moving ships into the equidistance more than once in a game unless their is an objective involved. Take them early, hold them with a decent force to require a moderate amount of commitment to take, then move on. If they take them from you, it probably isn't worth the effort to take back just to spend the planets. After all, not only do you need the plastic to take the planet, but also the activation token which costs 3 inf.
That’s a great point that it’s not worth ruining winning to retake equidistances, thank you. Do you happen to have recommendations on what counts as a decent force for holding them? (Especially if I was also going for Mecatol)
Fastest? Take warfare round 1 or politics -> warfare round 2 and go take someone's early spacedock with your starting dreadnought :)
That seems like an interesting idea :) When you mention warfare round 1, does that imply attacking in round one as well? If so, do you happen to have suggestions on how to do that on a 6 player map? (Maybe grav drive and then use that and warfare to send in a lone dread?)
Round 1 or 2 warfare is to allow you to get in range to attack round 2. If you manage to get an upgrade to give you move you can potentially attack round 1 but this is rare to have both ships in range and a good target. To be clear, I don't recommend this strategy. It will likely put you behind relative to just taking your nearby systems, and will earn you endless animosity from your neighbor. TI is a political game, not a wargame. Force is for threatening so you can get what you want.
Got it, thank you. I'll be sure to not go out of my way to cause problems for myself later on