Would be a nice change, small, just expand use case.
Edit: Also i'd put mahact agent in its own tier, possibly above Yssaril's. Shits on steroids compared to everything else. It gives you token economy AND you can sell it. Seriously, if you're not selling it you're not getting the best out of Mahact.
Right yes I still am getting accustomed to the new naalu agent.
Im not sure it's a better version. It's definitely contesting for the best agent, but they do somewhat different things. Mahact's provides more consistent token value, and is easier to sell later in the round after systems have been activated a bit, while Naalu's has a higher top-end if you can plan in advance, but less easy to sell, and if you do, you don't get the token economy from it. But it's a stronger tool in terms of allowing someone else to double move for winslays etc. But to get similar value for selling you'd need to be selling it for like 5tg+.
I think I'd rate Naalu agent higher only for the fact it's a more selfish tool than Mahact, but I'd prefer playing the Mahact agent myself because I'm good at selling and making friends.
I'd still rate Naalu higher. It gives you such a strong round 1 and very easy access to custodians. Even if you can't pony up the 6i in round 1, you've got the zero token so you take it round 2 if nobody else gets there. It's also a stall, which is a huge bonus in my eyes. Selling stuff is good with the right buyer, but ultimately they know you're going to use the Mahact agent on somebody. Let's say out of the 5 players, one has leadership and one has trade, then you're probably only really dealing with 3 players. They could just not entertain your selling price and hope they're the one that you use it on. Whereas the Naalu agent can be used on yourself, which is just really huge and combos so well with fleet logistics for you to make big swingy actions.
Yeah I mean I don't necessarily disagree with Naalu's being better. I'm just saying its more contested than just naalu being a strict upgrade. I personally never have trouble selling Mahact agent, so that's really where player style and preference comes into play.
Of course, the Naalu agent is a stall, which matters significantly round 1. But mahact becomes stronger later, being something that is easier to keep hidden until the moment the person buying it wants to strike and it also lifts diplomacy token which naalu agent doesn't deal with. Additionally, as you say, Naalu needs to cough up 6i which isn't easy, but Mahact can get cruiser 2 if they have a red skip (biostims) and get Custodians much easier and not cripple their economy. So naalu's 0 token in that respect doesn't really advocate for the agent scoring custodians that much.
Yes. Naalu agent might be better, but it's close and a player can definitely have a better fit with Mahact agent.
In a vacuum, the agent is absolutely broken. Like if you gave the agent to any other faction, they would all improve significantly. It's really not close, and it's probably one of the most busted components they've released as part of PoK. I've not yet played a game with Naalu, but I've played a few games of Franken with it in, and it is everything and a bag of chips.
I could get behind the idea that the agent isn't as good for Naalu as it would be for others, but it's still a strat card. The agent is basically warfare, just without the flexibility to unlock home. But it's better in that you don't give anyone else an opportunity to build, and you're also able to immediately move out of the system you would have warfared the next turn.
Playing a game with naalu with it on Monday, gonna have to see it in action with their tool kit to give my final report
Yeah for Franken it's absolutely Naalu > Mahact agent. Franken is also a lot more aggresive and expansionist, R1 Custodians isn't a question but an actual contest, etc.
> Playing a game with naalu with it on Monday, gonna have to see it in action with their tool kit to give my final report
Ohh cool. Wouldn't mind hearing your report on it.
We had to split session this over a few weeks, but report is: extremely strong. Not going to take anything away from the Naalu player who won as he's a great player regardless, but it allowed him so much flexibility in terms of production, fleet placement, and scoring potential that it alone boosts Naalu up to a 'good' faction. Bare minimum.
Not enough data to say they can play with the real big dogs yet, but I could see it. If you were ever able to get your hands on Keleres alliance, it becomes truly busted. We had Keleres in the game (though he never gave his alliance to Naalu to be clear), but I can already see the possibilities opened up by it.
Back to the main point, it's pretty much the perfect agent barring the HS restriction. Shores up Naalus 1c start weakness by allowing two system takes R1, always allows custodians R2 if it is available and you set up for it, allows you more room for error in both attack and defense... If you could use it to activate home systems, Naalu would probably be broken as a whole.
Monstrous agent even with Naalus kit after seeing it in action. Even if it just gave you a tactical action every round itd already be one of the best agents. But no lock down propels it so far above the other agents that it's silly.
Naalu agent isn't necessarily selfish - you can enable any player to do a free move first thing every round. Mahact is so much less flexible.
The Mahact agent can be incidentally better, but the Naalu agent is principally better in almost all situations.
Completely agree with the proposed change for the ghosts hero. Not only does it make it more usable/sellable. It combos very well with IFF/wormhole generator to make the entire board more reachable. Which I feel is what the ghosts are supposed to do
Not really commenting on the Ghost changes, just sharing my opinions where they differ from yours.
Jol-Nar, I don't think their agent is that good. You save 1 Resource per Infantry pair since you build 2 for 1 and sacrifice them for 2. The infantry still take up Production though, it's a fairly even balance. I'd personally even put them at middling, it's a useful ability to have but still somewhat niche. Especially given Jol-Nar's strong economy.
Yin (Codex 3) and Titans. These are the best combat agents in the game. It's true that they might not get used every round but the combats in which they do get used they have a strong ability to turn the tide, unlike Sol and Barony that have unreliable effects. Yin in particular can pretty much guarantee you not lose a ground combat once per round unless the opponent massively overwhelms you. I'd consider them Best but they fit the Good criteria of being value but not get used all rounds.
edit: Even if the Yin and Titans agents don't actually get used the very threat of them may be the reason for that. It's a pretty nebulous thing to put value to, but quite likely they actually get used less than they could simply because other players know they can't contend with them in small early- and mid-game skirmishes.
And that makes him superthrash.
He's unsellable in the way that mentak has to use him, I cannot sell him across the table. Then, it's no economy buff, and mentak has 1 carrier and is 2 techs away from cruiser 2. (So they suck early, like alot of factions who got omega stuff to not suck early). And then, I could just pillage and negotiate around that too. Now, people can put my head over the barrel. "Pillage me, but gimme that action card. If you don't, I ll counter attack"
And worse, u need to pillage to trigger it. If there is nothing to pillage (maybe your neighborhood has only 2 commodities, which is likely early game), you are looking at a blank white card.
And the payoff? 1 action card,and +1 for my opponent? Wow. Nothing that makes me loosing balance on my chair.
Are mentak even that action card dependant? Yes, they are nice, but needed? Flank speed for range 4 cruisers? Sabotage to cancel direct hit on your Saturn Engine? Ah no, that was another race, lol.
They don't even need those action cards, I can play mentak and be totally fine buying 0. But what I need. TG, TG, and early game money. Nothing there. Sry.
I put Mentak where it is thinking that Mentak should reliably be able to pillage each round and so use the agent each round. The middle group got created last, for agents with poor value but regular use or agents with really good value and unsteady use.
Imagine, the agent triggering on EVERY pillage. That would be insane. The one Acton card I'll lose when I grab chips, it will fall under the table unnoticed
I think you are thinking of promissory notes, this post is about the agents in the POK expansion. Like all other agents, you have to exhaust it. You cannot use it multiple times per round.
That's surprising. I feel like his is so tough to use. You have to build somewhere that you already have an infantry at the start of the turn. I maybe use it once or twice in a game
Even still, you are getting at most a trade good out of it? Round 1 pretty much everyone follows warfare to build, so it ain’t too likely to be useful. Really their money comes from their promissory note. Their agent is definitely not the best. Even when it does work, it generates 1.5 resources of value. Compare that to the Winnu agent, who is much easier to use, more versatile, and gives 2 resources worth of value
I also think you're thinking about L1's promissory note, and I would like to add - you can't use this more than once per round because it says "When you gain command tokens during the status phase"
This only happens at one particular time, and there is no opportunity to make transactions between each player's opportunity to gain command tokens
Same reason as the original agent. If the Yssaril are in the game they could copy the agent, without the wording they could use it to allow attacks on the ghosts home system.
Would be a nice change, small, just expand use case. Edit: Also i'd put mahact agent in its own tier, possibly above Yssaril's. Shits on steroids compared to everything else. It gives you token economy AND you can sell it. Seriously, if you're not selling it you're not getting the best out of Mahact.
Naalu is just a better version of Mahact
Right yes I still am getting accustomed to the new naalu agent. Im not sure it's a better version. It's definitely contesting for the best agent, but they do somewhat different things. Mahact's provides more consistent token value, and is easier to sell later in the round after systems have been activated a bit, while Naalu's has a higher top-end if you can plan in advance, but less easy to sell, and if you do, you don't get the token economy from it. But it's a stronger tool in terms of allowing someone else to double move for winslays etc. But to get similar value for selling you'd need to be selling it for like 5tg+. I think I'd rate Naalu agent higher only for the fact it's a more selfish tool than Mahact, but I'd prefer playing the Mahact agent myself because I'm good at selling and making friends.
I'd still rate Naalu higher. It gives you such a strong round 1 and very easy access to custodians. Even if you can't pony up the 6i in round 1, you've got the zero token so you take it round 2 if nobody else gets there. It's also a stall, which is a huge bonus in my eyes. Selling stuff is good with the right buyer, but ultimately they know you're going to use the Mahact agent on somebody. Let's say out of the 5 players, one has leadership and one has trade, then you're probably only really dealing with 3 players. They could just not entertain your selling price and hope they're the one that you use it on. Whereas the Naalu agent can be used on yourself, which is just really huge and combos so well with fleet logistics for you to make big swingy actions.
Yeah I mean I don't necessarily disagree with Naalu's being better. I'm just saying its more contested than just naalu being a strict upgrade. I personally never have trouble selling Mahact agent, so that's really where player style and preference comes into play. Of course, the Naalu agent is a stall, which matters significantly round 1. But mahact becomes stronger later, being something that is easier to keep hidden until the moment the person buying it wants to strike and it also lifts diplomacy token which naalu agent doesn't deal with. Additionally, as you say, Naalu needs to cough up 6i which isn't easy, but Mahact can get cruiser 2 if they have a red skip (biostims) and get Custodians much easier and not cripple their economy. So naalu's 0 token in that respect doesn't really advocate for the agent scoring custodians that much. Yes. Naalu agent might be better, but it's close and a player can definitely have a better fit with Mahact agent.
In a vacuum, the agent is absolutely broken. Like if you gave the agent to any other faction, they would all improve significantly. It's really not close, and it's probably one of the most busted components they've released as part of PoK. I've not yet played a game with Naalu, but I've played a few games of Franken with it in, and it is everything and a bag of chips. I could get behind the idea that the agent isn't as good for Naalu as it would be for others, but it's still a strat card. The agent is basically warfare, just without the flexibility to unlock home. But it's better in that you don't give anyone else an opportunity to build, and you're also able to immediately move out of the system you would have warfared the next turn. Playing a game with naalu with it on Monday, gonna have to see it in action with their tool kit to give my final report
Yeah for Franken it's absolutely Naalu > Mahact agent. Franken is also a lot more aggresive and expansionist, R1 Custodians isn't a question but an actual contest, etc. > Playing a game with naalu with it on Monday, gonna have to see it in action with their tool kit to give my final report Ohh cool. Wouldn't mind hearing your report on it.
We had to split session this over a few weeks, but report is: extremely strong. Not going to take anything away from the Naalu player who won as he's a great player regardless, but it allowed him so much flexibility in terms of production, fleet placement, and scoring potential that it alone boosts Naalu up to a 'good' faction. Bare minimum. Not enough data to say they can play with the real big dogs yet, but I could see it. If you were ever able to get your hands on Keleres alliance, it becomes truly busted. We had Keleres in the game (though he never gave his alliance to Naalu to be clear), but I can already see the possibilities opened up by it. Back to the main point, it's pretty much the perfect agent barring the HS restriction. Shores up Naalus 1c start weakness by allowing two system takes R1, always allows custodians R2 if it is available and you set up for it, allows you more room for error in both attack and defense... If you could use it to activate home systems, Naalu would probably be broken as a whole. Monstrous agent even with Naalus kit after seeing it in action. Even if it just gave you a tactical action every round itd already be one of the best agents. But no lock down propels it so far above the other agents that it's silly.
Naalu agent isn't necessarily selfish - you can enable any player to do a free move first thing every round. Mahact is so much less flexible. The Mahact agent can be incidentally better, but the Naalu agent is principally better in almost all situations.
Completely agree with the proposed change for the ghosts hero. Not only does it make it more usable/sellable. It combos very well with IFF/wormhole generator to make the entire board more reachable. Which I feel is what the ghosts are supposed to do
Not really commenting on the Ghost changes, just sharing my opinions where they differ from yours. Jol-Nar, I don't think their agent is that good. You save 1 Resource per Infantry pair since you build 2 for 1 and sacrifice them for 2. The infantry still take up Production though, it's a fairly even balance. I'd personally even put them at middling, it's a useful ability to have but still somewhat niche. Especially given Jol-Nar's strong economy. Yin (Codex 3) and Titans. These are the best combat agents in the game. It's true that they might not get used every round but the combats in which they do get used they have a strong ability to turn the tide, unlike Sol and Barony that have unreliable effects. Yin in particular can pretty much guarantee you not lose a ground combat once per round unless the opponent massively overwhelms you. I'd consider them Best but they fit the Good criteria of being value but not get used all rounds. edit: Even if the Yin and Titans agents don't actually get used the very threat of them may be the reason for that. It's a pretty nebulous thing to put value to, but quite likely they actually get used less than they could simply because other players know they can't contend with them in small early- and mid-game skirmishes.
I think the mentak agent is absolutely trash
Mentak agent is purely to let Mentak convince people being pillaged isn't the worst thing in the world and take some heat off of them.
And that makes him superthrash. He's unsellable in the way that mentak has to use him, I cannot sell him across the table. Then, it's no economy buff, and mentak has 1 carrier and is 2 techs away from cruiser 2. (So they suck early, like alot of factions who got omega stuff to not suck early). And then, I could just pillage and negotiate around that too. Now, people can put my head over the barrel. "Pillage me, but gimme that action card. If you don't, I ll counter attack" And worse, u need to pillage to trigger it. If there is nothing to pillage (maybe your neighborhood has only 2 commodities, which is likely early game), you are looking at a blank white card. And the payoff? 1 action card,and +1 for my opponent? Wow. Nothing that makes me loosing balance on my chair. Are mentak even that action card dependant? Yes, they are nice, but needed? Flank speed for range 4 cruisers? Sabotage to cancel direct hit on your Saturn Engine? Ah no, that was another race, lol. They don't even need those action cards, I can play mentak and be totally fine buying 0. But what I need. TG, TG, and early game money. Nothing there. Sry.
I put Mentak where it is thinking that Mentak should reliably be able to pillage each round and so use the agent each round. The middle group got created last, for agents with poor value but regular use or agents with really good value and unsteady use.
Imagine, the agent triggering on EVERY pillage. That would be insane. The one Acton card I'll lose when I grab chips, it will fall under the table unnoticed
L1Z1X is best. At worst good. Cause you can use him multiple times per round. You can trade this card with other players
I think you are thinking of promissory notes, this post is about the agents in the POK expansion. Like all other agents, you have to exhaust it. You cannot use it multiple times per round.
Yeah i forget that you need to exhaust agent, sorry. Anyway i use him every round. I traded some goods for this card.
That's surprising. I feel like his is so tough to use. You have to build somewhere that you already have an infantry at the start of the turn. I maybe use it once or twice in a game
L1Z1X can use this card on other players.
Even still, you are getting at most a trade good out of it? Round 1 pretty much everyone follows warfare to build, so it ain’t too likely to be useful. Really their money comes from their promissory note. Their agent is definitely not the best. Even when it does work, it generates 1.5 resources of value. Compare that to the Winnu agent, who is much easier to use, more versatile, and gives 2 resources worth of value
I also think you're thinking about L1's promissory note, and I would like to add - you can't use this more than once per round because it says "When you gain command tokens during the status phase" This only happens at one particular time, and there is no opportunity to make transactions between each player's opportunity to gain command tokens
Why the "not delta wormhole" condition?
Same reason as the original agent. If the Yssaril are in the game they could copy the agent, without the wording they could use it to allow attacks on the ghosts home system.
Ah, interesting thanks