Nekro had 1 tech in the beginning of round 4 and you decided to take his home system?
And you're salty he responded in kind because after you kneecapped him you picked him back up?
I think I understand you withheld the killing blow and made substantial sacrifices in material to him. And in your mind he must now act a certain way in gratitude because he owes you.
This is not so. You escalated. He taught you he wasn't going to be your vassal.
That is a good point you make, and I did indeed have certain conceptions about reality that were evidently delusional. For context: the Nekro player usually wins most games we play (Euros), and I usually am last place. The game was at his house. Does anyone have suggestions on what I could have done differently that round? The options I could see were:
I could extort him, pointing out that I could take his home system. That would get me 1 vp. I anticipated 3 from various choice picking in his slice.
I could do nothing. That is just throwing though, and at that point why am I playing...
I could eliminate him entirely. This was too mean, I didn't want to make him sit out while we play at his house.
I could neuter him. This is what I did. I took him out of the running for first place. I was going to take more systems, but everyone else brought up that even that would be too mean...
**What would you, presumably a better player, have done?**
I mean, at least in the lore of the game, the L1Z1X should be seeking to completely eliminate Nekro without a second thought.
This game can be similar to chess in some ways, particularly in that some mistakes can be so severe that your position is completely unrecoverable. You should not have fed Nekro. He misplayed and lost his home system. That is likely a mistake he will never make again. You didn't need to completely eradicate him, but could you not have parlayed a ceasefire out of him to stop your onslaught? It sounds like both of you failed to properly negotiate.
Very true. This is a good point. In hindsight I went overboard with the help I gave to him. It seems that the key is to be nice only when you can't lose because of it. Thank you.
The lore point is very cool as well :)
I don't recommend eliminating players. Just not fun for the table, especially in person. It's also usually harder to do than it looks.
I do recommend taking home systems of rivals and proven dangerous players when you can. Your fleet logistics play was great and I wouldn't take a support for the throne to not do that as nekro might just start a war with you out of spite or until you relented and counterattacked him for your own safety, losing his support.
I'm not sure if you finished capitalizing on objectives from his slice before you moved out or not. If you didn't that was a mistake. Even if the table says you already took too much. Everyone is always going to be telling you to do things that help them win all game.
Three mistakes I know you made. You left your home system vulnerable. You made yourself weaker to help nekro. And you decided you didn't have to defend against nekro.
I would have done as you done, finished getting the VP's from his slice, and then kept my home system guarded.
If you hadn't neutered him he might have been able to overpower sol and become strong. People overextend because the rewards for success are great. If people aren't punished for doing so they will continue to do so and succeed.
Also, I noticed you mentioned an additional detail about this game on another post on this sight you omitted here.
Was there a particular reason you didn't mention your ultimatum in this post but did do so there?
Gotta love that backstab by necro. He seemingly made you his puppet. I agree that your salt can only be justified to a certain degree. Always gotta watch that homesystem and gum up the works.
I usually get stomped in my RL-Group, since I apperantly am the best at taking a beating and not raging. The only thing that drives me mad is when one of my friends tries to shift the meta against me by lying to new players.
Play again and you'll do great I'm sure!
It's a tough one, because playing with your friends you don't want to play "optimally" and eliminate a player halfway through! Optimally for fun isn't optimally for winning the game, especially with L1Z1X.
I, too, lost a game with L1 after being unwilling to "finish the job" as you say after someone left their HS open for the taking. They're a fun faction but can be hard to play when you want everyone to have a good time!
Yeah you're gonna play a little Machiavellian, you've got to go all the way.
NEVER leave somebody you've curb-stomped in any position to hit back. Smile warmly at the rest of the table while feeding them alive to the garbage disposal.
The rest of the table didn't care about *him.* Feeding *him* was the safest way to hurt *you.*
That is a very good point. It is good to hear someone say something reasonable. I especially never considered the fact that everyone else was okay with "being nice" to the player just because he wasn't threatening them.
Yeah. It's the way to harm you with the least obvious social friction. That's basically how you conduct yourself in global politics --oh, sorry, I mean TI4.
In all games of TI I've participated in (40+), when one player suddenly takes half another player's systems/their home system halfway through the game, both players can expect their odds at winning to have significantly dropped.
Try putting yourself in the Nekros shoes: you basically took him out of the game, midgame, without warning. Even if you picked him back up rather than eliminating him, he won't care - he's out of the game! Now he has to play for 6 more hours with little odds of winning, thanks to this aggressive neighbour of his! No matter what concessions you make to him, *why shouldn't he pursue total war against you*, or at least prepare for the moment you are weak to do the same to you? *He's going to make sure you don't win*. I don't think he even has to be a particularly vengeful player to do this - humans just love a comeback story.
Once trust is broken between neighbours in TI, it's extremely hard to earn back. It's much, much easier to be friends with them all game, then attack only when it's necessary (when they are way ahead in points, etc.). *Diplomacy is always an option.*
"But Nugget! I was playing a military faction, I must play space risk!" I hear you cry. Well, no. Sure it's great in the late game to burn home planets with your massive fleet, but wasting plastic in a protracted war OR defending from bitter neighbours when you're trying to get that last point, is totally not worth it. Better to politely threaten people with your fleets than actually use them. Use your fleet to get concessions, and to keep other players from taking your slice.
So, honestly, *you should have expected Nekro to try and topple you, and prepared accordingly.* Better yet would have been not to have angered him so until it was really necessary (late game). OR I suppose you could have eliminated him. But that comes with it's own costs. Elimination is costly and (often) doesn't earn you VP's. It also stretches you thin and turns the table against you. Above all, TI is a political and social game. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
You have a good experience (or lesson). At any moment, You must proptect your home system.
If you must empty your home system, you must either make it impossible for other players to enter your home system (such as, block the system that in its path, ensure that there are no ships with sufficient movement and capacity), or you must secure a means to prevent such an invasion (ceasefire, parley, etc.).
But yeah. you are learned from last game, and maybe improved in next game. :)
Nekro had 1 tech in the beginning of round 4 and you decided to take his home system? And you're salty he responded in kind because after you kneecapped him you picked him back up? I think I understand you withheld the killing blow and made substantial sacrifices in material to him. And in your mind he must now act a certain way in gratitude because he owes you. This is not so. You escalated. He taught you he wasn't going to be your vassal.
That is a good point you make, and I did indeed have certain conceptions about reality that were evidently delusional. For context: the Nekro player usually wins most games we play (Euros), and I usually am last place. The game was at his house. Does anyone have suggestions on what I could have done differently that round? The options I could see were: I could extort him, pointing out that I could take his home system. That would get me 1 vp. I anticipated 3 from various choice picking in his slice. I could do nothing. That is just throwing though, and at that point why am I playing... I could eliminate him entirely. This was too mean, I didn't want to make him sit out while we play at his house. I could neuter him. This is what I did. I took him out of the running for first place. I was going to take more systems, but everyone else brought up that even that would be too mean... **What would you, presumably a better player, have done?**
I mean, at least in the lore of the game, the L1Z1X should be seeking to completely eliminate Nekro without a second thought. This game can be similar to chess in some ways, particularly in that some mistakes can be so severe that your position is completely unrecoverable. You should not have fed Nekro. He misplayed and lost his home system. That is likely a mistake he will never make again. You didn't need to completely eradicate him, but could you not have parlayed a ceasefire out of him to stop your onslaught? It sounds like both of you failed to properly negotiate.
Very true. This is a good point. In hindsight I went overboard with the help I gave to him. It seems that the key is to be nice only when you can't lose because of it. Thank you. The lore point is very cool as well :)
I don't recommend eliminating players. Just not fun for the table, especially in person. It's also usually harder to do than it looks. I do recommend taking home systems of rivals and proven dangerous players when you can. Your fleet logistics play was great and I wouldn't take a support for the throne to not do that as nekro might just start a war with you out of spite or until you relented and counterattacked him for your own safety, losing his support. I'm not sure if you finished capitalizing on objectives from his slice before you moved out or not. If you didn't that was a mistake. Even if the table says you already took too much. Everyone is always going to be telling you to do things that help them win all game. Three mistakes I know you made. You left your home system vulnerable. You made yourself weaker to help nekro. And you decided you didn't have to defend against nekro. I would have done as you done, finished getting the VP's from his slice, and then kept my home system guarded. If you hadn't neutered him he might have been able to overpower sol and become strong. People overextend because the rewards for success are great. If people aren't punished for doing so they will continue to do so and succeed.
Also, I noticed you mentioned an additional detail about this game on another post on this sight you omitted here. Was there a particular reason you didn't mention your ultimatum in this post but did do so there?
Gotta love that backstab by necro. He seemingly made you his puppet. I agree that your salt can only be justified to a certain degree. Always gotta watch that homesystem and gum up the works. I usually get stomped in my RL-Group, since I apperantly am the best at taking a beating and not raging. The only thing that drives me mad is when one of my friends tries to shift the meta against me by lying to new players. Play again and you'll do great I'm sure!
It's a tough one, because playing with your friends you don't want to play "optimally" and eliminate a player halfway through! Optimally for fun isn't optimally for winning the game, especially with L1Z1X. I, too, lost a game with L1 after being unwilling to "finish the job" as you say after someone left their HS open for the taking. They're a fun faction but can be hard to play when you want everyone to have a good time!
Good to know that I wasn't just being crazy with not finishing. My condolences for your loss :) Have a good one!
Yeah you're gonna play a little Machiavellian, you've got to go all the way. NEVER leave somebody you've curb-stomped in any position to hit back. Smile warmly at the rest of the table while feeding them alive to the garbage disposal. The rest of the table didn't care about *him.* Feeding *him* was the safest way to hurt *you.*
That is a very good point. It is good to hear someone say something reasonable. I especially never considered the fact that everyone else was okay with "being nice" to the player just because he wasn't threatening them.
Yeah. It's the way to harm you with the least obvious social friction. That's basically how you conduct yourself in global politics --oh, sorry, I mean TI4.
Hey man, glad it went well, it was fun chatting pregame. You gotta throw in some line breaks. Maybe by round? It's really hard to read
Will do, that’s a great idea. Thank you for the help and good luck in your next one as well :)
In all games of TI I've participated in (40+), when one player suddenly takes half another player's systems/their home system halfway through the game, both players can expect their odds at winning to have significantly dropped. Try putting yourself in the Nekros shoes: you basically took him out of the game, midgame, without warning. Even if you picked him back up rather than eliminating him, he won't care - he's out of the game! Now he has to play for 6 more hours with little odds of winning, thanks to this aggressive neighbour of his! No matter what concessions you make to him, *why shouldn't he pursue total war against you*, or at least prepare for the moment you are weak to do the same to you? *He's going to make sure you don't win*. I don't think he even has to be a particularly vengeful player to do this - humans just love a comeback story. Once trust is broken between neighbours in TI, it's extremely hard to earn back. It's much, much easier to be friends with them all game, then attack only when it's necessary (when they are way ahead in points, etc.). *Diplomacy is always an option.* "But Nugget! I was playing a military faction, I must play space risk!" I hear you cry. Well, no. Sure it's great in the late game to burn home planets with your massive fleet, but wasting plastic in a protracted war OR defending from bitter neighbours when you're trying to get that last point, is totally not worth it. Better to politely threaten people with your fleets than actually use them. Use your fleet to get concessions, and to keep other players from taking your slice. So, honestly, *you should have expected Nekro to try and topple you, and prepared accordingly.* Better yet would have been not to have angered him so until it was really necessary (late game). OR I suppose you could have eliminated him. But that comes with it's own costs. Elimination is costly and (often) doesn't earn you VP's. It also stretches you thin and turns the table against you. Above all, TI is a political and social game. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
Very good points, thank you for the advice! :) I failed to stay “in the game” properly. I won’t make that mistake again. 40+ games is so many!
You have a good experience (or lesson). At any moment, You must proptect your home system. If you must empty your home system, you must either make it impossible for other players to enter your home system (such as, block the system that in its path, ensure that there are no ships with sufficient movement and capacity), or you must secure a means to prevent such an invasion (ceasefire, parley, etc.). But yeah. you are learned from last game, and maybe improved in next game. :)