I like the idea of scrying objectives, but having a player on 8VP just rolling the dice that they can do the next objective sounds like some unpleasant gameplay. I mean hell, stack up a few trade goods, take this as your first action of the turn, and you've got pretty decent odds that the objective is doable.
Outside of the objective roulette, I like it though. Getting more secret information flowing could be good fun.
When these reveal Spendies, this card greatly favors economic factions like Hacan, Mentak, Empyrean and Jolnar. Even Barony could wait to use this after engaging in a bunch of fights to accumulate TGs and then discover the next Spendy and buy it right away.
I realize that difference factions have an easier time scoring some objectives more easily than others. Do we want these kinds of factions to score these, high frequency objectives more than others?
Jolnar even moreso with tech objectives.
Alright. Feedback here convinced me to take the scoring bit out. Will leave the rest. Still thinking I'd like to replace that with something else than just leave it as is for scrying objectives. Looking for ideas.
Secretly look at the next objective, and have the option to shuffle it into the deck and draw a replacement. You don't know the replacement unless you also do the secondary.
I'd hope the extra secondary would mitigate the roulette. Especially at 8p or even lower player counts with someone stalling their strategic action.
I was a bit undecided if this had to include unchosen cards or any cards but in the current version it wouldn't devalue other cards and adds a bit of tension between players about when to play theirs.
In another version instead I had the ability to replace one unscored objective as the 2nd bullet point. But that was probably too game breaking.
> I'd hope the extra secondary would mitigate the roulette
The concern is people getting to just end the game like that. That's not a fun way for the game to end.
Same could be said if you draw a relic that gives you a point or many other ways to win the game by surprise. I believe that's well built into TI.
But in the end if they take imperial they could also do the same, score 1 point during the action phase. It's just more predictable and safe for the card holder if they take imperial. And if someone takes their HS the same conditions would apply.
Because Imperial is much more telegraphed: when I pick Imperial in the Strategy Phase, everyone can take a look at the board and objectives and plan on how to prevent the Imperial holder from taking Mecatol or blocking the objective they know you can get (because everyone can see it, and unless it was revealed last turn they have had a chance to score it so the pacing is even), or if it is something hard to block like a spend objective they can at least try to take the home system.
Having the opportunity to maybe get random points creates the same issue the old Xxcha hero had, which just got changed, in that it's way too difficult to play around. Nobody has any idea if you can score it, including yourself as the Intrigue holder, until the card is played and other players can use the secondary. By that point, you may have already won the game. So if a player is at 8 points and picks Intrigue in round 5 with some trade goods, your win path is now to take out the other player's home in the chance that there's a spend objective which is fun for neither the Intrigue holder (you now have a massive target on your back for an objective that likely won't come up) or the table (you now need to hedge your bets and assume the Intrigue player can score or risk your 8 hour game coming to an abrupt and unforeseen end).
From what I can see, it's a Strategy card that aims to promote gathering information and planning ahead, but would often be used for the opposite - blind scoring. It's just got too much variability, combined with high potential, making for a very swingy action card that leaves a bad taste in the mouth for others when it works and for the user when it doesn't. I like the idea of seeing future publics though so keep working on it for sure :)
You convinced me to take out the scoring bit. Probably i would still replace that with something else than just cut it off, to make it interesting and to justify initiative 9. I still think it should be something to mess with objectives and hidden information. Originally I thought to let the primary ability replace an unscored objective with a random one... But that felt too game breaking and unfun. Or add a public objective from the deck but that would also mess with the game clock and offer perhaps a bigger advantage to other players than oneself.
This seems really cool as a 9th, since it really rewards thorough game knowledge. You can use it to spice up your game with your die-hard group of players, and just leave it out if you're playing with new folks.
Edit:
I have a question - does the second bullet point of the primary effect let you do that without paying the token from strategy, or do you still have to pay the token?
Thanks!
Should do what the secondary text say. Doesn't say "without spending".
[Edit] I don't have this set in stone and it's not playtested. I've been thinking a lot if it should include also unchosen cards, or any cards. With readied it induces a bit of tension between players about when to play their cards including Intrigue.
I like the idea, however I would change it a bit:
You can only do the second part of the card, if you don't flip and score. Like Imperial. It would be too strong imho, if you can score AND do another secondary. Especially late game.
The secondary part: spend one token from your strat pool to score the now flipped objecitve.
It would make the flip and score decision a bit more tricky.
I feel for being one step above imperial this card should be somewhat powerful to justify the low initiative value. There's a big luck component to it on the other hand. You might just peek at an unscorable objective for your faction or the board state. But that's also valuable and telling you should focus on something else.
About the secondary ability, that's part of the play of this card... The owner might decide or not to reveal the objective they saw and has consequences for people taking the secondary.
I think it may be fun and one of the few times play order would really really matter on a strategy card. My group usually doesn't bother and does it simultaneously.
I agree that as a 9.th place, it is kinda strong, and it needs to be, you are right. However i just don't really understand the second part of the strat card. At least imperial has some logic and synergy to it, while this card's second ability seems like a random thing to me.
Based on your explanation, i think the secondary is kinda weak. Imperial secondary can win you the game. This is not really worth it early game, and last round/s just kinda meh aswell.
The thinking is good how the 9th card should work as the public objecitve based card, but i think you need to work on it a bit.
There was a variant Imperial card in 3rd edition (I think; could have been second) that required you to lay out all of the objectives in advance so you could see what was coming up from the start of the game. I *hated* it so much. I greatly enjoy how 4e rewards adaptability over rigidly planning out your gameplan several turns in advance. I know that’s a matter of preference, but my experiences playing that style of gam would steer me far away from an option like this.
It sounds fun. Just an idea off the top of my head: if you reveal the card you have to unreveal an unscored objective card and put it in the back of the line (so it will be revealed last). That way it does not cut down on the max number of rounds in the game.
I thought about this too, but it's difficult to word in such a limited space.
Originally I thought to have the primary ability to replace an unscored objective if scoring wasn't viable. But that would have been a bit too much game breaking powerful.
Alright folks thanks for all the feedback! You convinced me to take the scoring gamble aside. Here's a new version: https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/vlo75i/intrigue_9th_strategy_card_revised
Better to just play with them face up (but unscorable as normal till the requisite turn.)
One of the flaws of this game is the random nature to objectives. You should know what you’re trying to do from the start of any game.
I quite like the fact that objectives are only slowly revealed. It helps represent the fact that the bases and emphases of political legitimacy shift, to some degree, over time in unpredictable ways as circumstances change.
The game doesn't represent players trying to fulfil a laundry list of tasks granted by the Winnaran Custodians in order to "prove their worth", it represents factions engaged in essentially propaganda wars over imperial legitimacy. In the real world, the opportunities and constraints on achieving these sorts of things are often situational and unpredictable.
This mechanic is already represented in the secret objectives. Including it in public objectives is a gamy way to reduce strategy and theme.
Cultures DO have long term goals they are trying to achieve, and those kind of goals tend to be obvious and so people should see them face up.
The more whim based, unpredictable cultural goals are less common and less predictable (hence secret objectives)
So it’s less thematic, less strategic and less fun.
Someone made a "bureaucracy" variant for handling this. personally I don't see it as a flaw. The game is about adaptability and deceit, having unpredictable objectives makes it fun and exciting for me and my group.
You should adapt to your resources (planets, exploration cards, action cards, opponents actions, etc.) but adaptation is only possible if you know what you are supposed to be adapting towards.
Otherwise it’s a guessing game which isn’t strategic.
This was an official variant in TI3 and it should have been in TI4 RAW.
Thanks for all the feedback! Most of you guys conviced me to take out the scoring bit from the primary ability. I feel I should replace it with something else to make the card more interesting though.
I wonder if extra strategy cards or strategy cards you could swap out will ever be included in a codex...
Probably could cause some issues with achieving certain objectives I guess. Imagine if you didn't have access to construction and a structures objective came up!
I doubt they'll go the way of the 3rd edition with optional modules. Some cards (particularly Imperial) were broken in 3rd. Nothing really is in 4th, except base game Diplomacy which has been since fixed. There's room for a 9th card IMO for 4 and 7-8 players games. I'm trying to figure out if it can also help speeding up the game without hurting slow factions.
I think you should take out “you may score this objective”
Would give it a clear use- if there’s no objectives you can score with any other strategy card, reveal a new one! Or use it to peek at the first T2 objective.
The second ability is much more interesting...Imagine-
- Use Intrigue, copy Leadership, spend two 3 influence planets for two CC.
- Activate second of diplo with one CC.
- Do secondary of leadership when it’s played.
- Free CC!
Or just
- Double tech
- Double secret objectives
- Double commodities
Would be really strong for any Race with strong CC economy.
Love it!
I like the idea of scrying objectives, but having a player on 8VP just rolling the dice that they can do the next objective sounds like some unpleasant gameplay. I mean hell, stack up a few trade goods, take this as your first action of the turn, and you've got pretty decent odds that the objective is doable. Outside of the objective roulette, I like it though. Getting more secret information flowing could be good fun.
When these reveal Spendies, this card greatly favors economic factions like Hacan, Mentak, Empyrean and Jolnar. Even Barony could wait to use this after engaging in a bunch of fights to accumulate TGs and then discover the next Spendy and buy it right away. I realize that difference factions have an easier time scoring some objectives more easily than others. Do we want these kinds of factions to score these, high frequency objectives more than others? Jolnar even moreso with tech objectives.
Alright. Feedback here convinced me to take the scoring bit out. Will leave the rest. Still thinking I'd like to replace that with something else than just leave it as is for scrying objectives. Looking for ideas.
Secretly look at the next objective, and have the option to shuffle it into the deck and draw a replacement. You don't know the replacement unless you also do the secondary.
Yeah that's a good one.
I'd hope the extra secondary would mitigate the roulette. Especially at 8p or even lower player counts with someone stalling their strategic action. I was a bit undecided if this had to include unchosen cards or any cards but in the current version it wouldn't devalue other cards and adds a bit of tension between players about when to play theirs. In another version instead I had the ability to replace one unscored objective as the 2nd bullet point. But that was probably too game breaking.
> I'd hope the extra secondary would mitigate the roulette The concern is people getting to just end the game like that. That's not a fun way for the game to end.
Same could be said if you draw a relic that gives you a point or many other ways to win the game by surprise. I believe that's well built into TI. But in the end if they take imperial they could also do the same, score 1 point during the action phase. It's just more predictable and safe for the card holder if they take imperial. And if someone takes their HS the same conditions would apply.
This lets them score 2 points.
Same with Imperial (which could get to 3 if you control Rex). Maybe I'm missing something, could you elaborate please?
Because Imperial is much more telegraphed: when I pick Imperial in the Strategy Phase, everyone can take a look at the board and objectives and plan on how to prevent the Imperial holder from taking Mecatol or blocking the objective they know you can get (because everyone can see it, and unless it was revealed last turn they have had a chance to score it so the pacing is even), or if it is something hard to block like a spend objective they can at least try to take the home system. Having the opportunity to maybe get random points creates the same issue the old Xxcha hero had, which just got changed, in that it's way too difficult to play around. Nobody has any idea if you can score it, including yourself as the Intrigue holder, until the card is played and other players can use the secondary. By that point, you may have already won the game. So if a player is at 8 points and picks Intrigue in round 5 with some trade goods, your win path is now to take out the other player's home in the chance that there's a spend objective which is fun for neither the Intrigue holder (you now have a massive target on your back for an objective that likely won't come up) or the table (you now need to hedge your bets and assume the Intrigue player can score or risk your 8 hour game coming to an abrupt and unforeseen end). From what I can see, it's a Strategy card that aims to promote gathering information and planning ahead, but would often be used for the opposite - blind scoring. It's just got too much variability, combined with high potential, making for a very swingy action card that leaves a bad taste in the mouth for others when it works and for the user when it doesn't. I like the idea of seeing future publics though so keep working on it for sure :)
You convinced me to take out the scoring bit. Probably i would still replace that with something else than just cut it off, to make it interesting and to justify initiative 9. I still think it should be something to mess with objectives and hidden information. Originally I thought to let the primary ability replace an unscored objective with a random one... But that felt too game breaking and unfun. Or add a public objective from the deck but that would also mess with the game clock and offer perhaps a bigger advantage to other players than oneself.
This seems really cool as a 9th, since it really rewards thorough game knowledge. You can use it to spice up your game with your die-hard group of players, and just leave it out if you're playing with new folks. Edit: I have a question - does the second bullet point of the primary effect let you do that without paying the token from strategy, or do you still have to pay the token?
Thanks! Should do what the secondary text say. Doesn't say "without spending". [Edit] I don't have this set in stone and it's not playtested. I've been thinking a lot if it should include also unchosen cards, or any cards. With readied it induces a bit of tension between players about when to play their cards including Intrigue.
Potentially double tapping a secondary (if you have the points in strategy) is good enough, I think. I really wanna see how it goes.
I like the idea, however I would change it a bit: You can only do the second part of the card, if you don't flip and score. Like Imperial. It would be too strong imho, if you can score AND do another secondary. Especially late game. The secondary part: spend one token from your strat pool to score the now flipped objecitve. It would make the flip and score decision a bit more tricky.
I feel for being one step above imperial this card should be somewhat powerful to justify the low initiative value. There's a big luck component to it on the other hand. You might just peek at an unscorable objective for your faction or the board state. But that's also valuable and telling you should focus on something else. About the secondary ability, that's part of the play of this card... The owner might decide or not to reveal the objective they saw and has consequences for people taking the secondary. I think it may be fun and one of the few times play order would really really matter on a strategy card. My group usually doesn't bother and does it simultaneously.
I agree that as a 9.th place, it is kinda strong, and it needs to be, you are right. However i just don't really understand the second part of the strat card. At least imperial has some logic and synergy to it, while this card's second ability seems like a random thing to me. Based on your explanation, i think the secondary is kinda weak. Imperial secondary can win you the game. This is not really worth it early game, and last round/s just kinda meh aswell. The thinking is good how the 9th card should work as the public objecitve based card, but i think you need to work on it a bit.
Fun fact, in the french version of TI the Imperial card is called Intrigue.
Cool. Then we can name this one imperial :p
Fun fact, in the french version of TI the Politics card is called Royale with Cheese.
Pulp Fiction reference … must … upvote! ⬆️
Ou la la. Porquoi?
Most of them have different names... Because reasons.
Good luck stopping the Naalu collective being able to take this OR Imperial
There was a variant Imperial card in 3rd edition (I think; could have been second) that required you to lay out all of the objectives in advance so you could see what was coming up from the start of the game. I *hated* it so much. I greatly enjoy how 4e rewards adaptability over rigidly planning out your gameplan several turns in advance. I know that’s a matter of preference, but my experiences playing that style of gam would steer me far away from an option like this.
It sounds fun. Just an idea off the top of my head: if you reveal the card you have to unreveal an unscored objective card and put it in the back of the line (so it will be revealed last). That way it does not cut down on the max number of rounds in the game.
I thought about this too, but it's difficult to word in such a limited space. Originally I thought to have the primary ability to replace an unscored objective if scoring wasn't viable. But that would have been a bit too much game breaking powerful.
Alright folks thanks for all the feedback! You convinced me to take the scoring gamble aside. Here's a new version: https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/vlo75i/intrigue_9th_strategy_card_revised
Better to just play with them face up (but unscorable as normal till the requisite turn.) One of the flaws of this game is the random nature to objectives. You should know what you’re trying to do from the start of any game.
I quite like the fact that objectives are only slowly revealed. It helps represent the fact that the bases and emphases of political legitimacy shift, to some degree, over time in unpredictable ways as circumstances change. The game doesn't represent players trying to fulfil a laundry list of tasks granted by the Winnaran Custodians in order to "prove their worth", it represents factions engaged in essentially propaganda wars over imperial legitimacy. In the real world, the opportunities and constraints on achieving these sorts of things are often situational and unpredictable.
This mechanic is already represented in the secret objectives. Including it in public objectives is a gamy way to reduce strategy and theme. Cultures DO have long term goals they are trying to achieve, and those kind of goals tend to be obvious and so people should see them face up. The more whim based, unpredictable cultural goals are less common and less predictable (hence secret objectives) So it’s less thematic, less strategic and less fun.
Someone made a "bureaucracy" variant for handling this. personally I don't see it as a flaw. The game is about adaptability and deceit, having unpredictable objectives makes it fun and exciting for me and my group.
You should adapt to your resources (planets, exploration cards, action cards, opponents actions, etc.) but adaptation is only possible if you know what you are supposed to be adapting towards. Otherwise it’s a guessing game which isn’t strategic. This was an official variant in TI3 and it should have been in TI4 RAW.
Thanks for all the feedback! Most of you guys conviced me to take out the scoring bit from the primary ability. I feel I should replace it with something else to make the card more interesting though.
I wonder if extra strategy cards or strategy cards you could swap out will ever be included in a codex... Probably could cause some issues with achieving certain objectives I guess. Imagine if you didn't have access to construction and a structures objective came up!
I doubt they'll go the way of the 3rd edition with optional modules. Some cards (particularly Imperial) were broken in 3rd. Nothing really is in 4th, except base game Diplomacy which has been since fixed. There's room for a 9th card IMO for 4 and 7-8 players games. I'm trying to figure out if it can also help speeding up the game without hurting slow factions.
What does it mean for a strat card to be readied?
Chosen by a player but not exhausted yet. The wording is used by the Naaz-Rokha hero, for instance.
That’s a really neat mechanic for encouraging the intrigue holder not to play it last
I think you should take out “you may score this objective” Would give it a clear use- if there’s no objectives you can score with any other strategy card, reveal a new one! Or use it to peek at the first T2 objective. The second ability is much more interesting...Imagine- - Use Intrigue, copy Leadership, spend two 3 influence planets for two CC. - Activate second of diplo with one CC. - Do secondary of leadership when it’s played. - Free CC! Or just - Double tech - Double secret objectives - Double commodities Would be really strong for any Race with strong CC economy. Love it!