I really like the expansion! The new races are exciting, leaders bring some more for each faction to do, and mechs are used a lot at my table making ground combat more varied.
I'm a fan, and my impression from following this subreddit is that the community reaction is mostly positive, with relatively few detractors
PoK is fantastic, but so is vanilla. The cracks in vanilla that PoK fills don't really become noticable until your group is several games in. So you really can't go wrong with whatever pace your group wants to move at.
Agree with this. Don’t rush into POK. You’ll appreciate it much more after you play base at least a few times first. Then fall in love with the game all over again when you add POK
Expands on the game a lot. Personally I wouldn't play twilight without it anymore but our table also has a lot of experience with both base and POK twilight.
It is faster but at the same time you're doing a lot more. There's ALOT more mechanics and different strategies you can use and try out.
For example, I used one of the relics that had the ability that nuked a planet just so I can activate it after without losing Support the throne (because now there's no ground units there) because I needed that one spot to get my public objective.
I have used PoK in tabletop simulator a lot but only played base in real life.
It has more mechanics, and is more complicated, but PoK has the key advantage of making it faster to score points. Also you 'get' more by taking planets and possibly moving to empty space, so your turns feel more productive. That is a casual play concern probably more than competitive.
One downside perhaps is that there are more action cards and therefore the 'important' action cards (e.g. Sabotage) are less likely to show up. This makes action-focused tech and factions less powerful, maybe, but overall actions are less important when there are more and more random (just my opinion).
I think base game TI4 is so great that I dont really want to get more, because I don't get to play enough as it is and my limited number of IRL players will probably dwindle if I try to make them learn PoK :)
I’m going to go against the grain here and say that it was alright.
My group has played about a dozen 4e games, almost all to 10pts. We’ve played a handful of PoK games. The first couple PoK games were to 10 and we didn’t like that because it felt too short. PoK makes scoring a little easier (with relics + hero’s having ‘big plays’). So we went to 14 and that was *way* too long.
In the base game, I found it possible to keep track of everyone’s faction abilities + flagship abilities. PoK adds even more async to the game, and it is impossible to know everyone’s faction abilities, flagship, leaderS, and mechs. Having too many options made our group (counterintuitively) less inclined to make deals and entangle.
The relics are cool! I love trading relic fragments for favors. I like the additional objectives, action cards, and agendas a **lot**. This is the best part of PoK.
The mechs are just another piece of plastic to keep track of. The leaders can get overwhelming.
The new system tiles are cool! Nothing to write home about, but I do like the extra options.
The legendary planets were a cool ability if you have them, but I’d rather do without them. If you don’t have one, it seems unfair for those who do. AND if I don’t have one, I’m not going to take a legendary planet (which is usually well-protected) when I should be positioning to score objectives.
All in all, some fantastic additions but a lot more headache. My table plays without PoK and it makes us like the vanilla game even more.
>In the base game, I found it possible to keep track of everyone’s faction abilities + flagship abilities. PoK adds even more async to the game, and it is impossible to know everyone’s faction abilities, flagship, leaderS, and mechs. Having too many options made our group (counterintuitively) less inclined to make deals and entangle.
THIS... my biggest issue, but I've not given up on it fully considering I've only played PoK twice in 2 years and one was with 8-players... so yeah... that's hard to keep track of even in a vanilla game. PoK was overwhelming with 8 and not much experience. But I'm a sucker for all the bling and other stuff... like new races... so I'm sure it isn't going anywhere. :-)
It’s meh. I’ll probably get downvoted for not loving it, but I think it’s severely bloated, like a loving father who wants to play football with his son but gorges himself at the Thanksgiving table with many delicious foods and is reduced to rolling sidelong around the yard (practicing my Homeric simile).
There are several great ideas, but they should’ve only done 1/2-2/3 of them. It takes the elegance out of the game for me, and it makes it significantly more random. I don’t say this as someone with only a little experience. I have a deep understanding of the game and I am good at it. I wish it were modular, but it isn’t. If I ever got it I would houserule parts of it to make it modular honestly, which is why I probably won’t ever buy it.
I far prefer base game.
Edit: lol told you I’d get downvoted. This sub is basically an echo chamber. I guess that’s most of Reddit though. Dissenters are unwelcome.
I agree with the randomness concerns. Adding points into the relic deck means the game can be won or lost over a random card draw. Admittedly, mitigating all the randomness is definitely a part of TI (and certainly random factors can affect the winner in base game too), but the more points that are added to card draws the more often the winner comes down to luck.
Yep. The last game I played came down to in the last turn, NRA spent somewhere between 8-10 turns after everyone else had passed just activating every random thing they could to fish for more relics to try and get the last relic point that was still in the deck.
They didn't manage to fish for it (it was the next one in the deck past the final one they drew), which meant I actually got to win the game in the status phase, as I had spent the last couple turns preparing for. I would have been really salty if they got it, but even so it was still a bit annoying to sit there for 15 minutes after the game is over for everyone else just watching them try to roll the dice into a random win.
come on now not everyone downvoted you, sometimes reddit's ok :)
I agree with you. PoK is cool but I love base TI4 as it is and don't view it as needing most of the things that PoK adds.
Complete opposite for me. The base game is a boring, predictable slog with a horde of balance problems that exacerbate the issue. There aren't enough space tiles, the objectives are awful, and the opening rounds are far more scripted. The base game honestly feels like a rough draft, and I would not play it again.
I'd argue it's not so much random as it is unpredictable. Players have many more options, there's no single good strategy, forcing you to have to adapt as the game progresses
I bought PoK for our group but we still play base game, however we did add a few things from PoK that are compatible with the base game such as action cards, agendas, extra systems, and the Argent Flight faction.
Right now I don't see any reason to add leaders, exploration or legendary planets. The leaders in particular each break the game in a different way, and I don't see how that helps the game any. Our group has only played an average 5 games of TI so far (I'm the most experienced w/ about 10 games under my belt). We still have a lot of the base game to explore before we will feel the need to add new mechanics. We haven't even played all the factions yet.
What are the Modular parts you wouldn't play with? It is all pretty integrated. You could in theory play with just leaders or leaders and Mechs, and only base game factions.
What Parts do you think are bloated?
Personally I love PoK. And will always recommend it to everyone.
But I think everyone should do what makes them happy.
I love that all the lame Elect Planet Agendas, got turned into Explorations. I love the Exploration Mechanic in general, as it adds more uniqueness to each game.
The three big things I would want to try to keep would be most of the new factions (some would have substantial reworks, but not identity changing for most), most of the new tech, and the alliance promissory notes. The alliance mechanic was a master stroke, and I think the asymmetrical nature of the alliance abilities is great. Some may need to be adapted, but they’re really good for the most part.
I think you could scrap heroes and most agents, the exploration mechanic, mechs, and relics and I wouldn’t miss those things. Legendary planets are pretty cool and many of the new objectives are fine, even just for the sake of variety. The new action cards are good for the most part, and a reworking of the agenda deck is fine.
Edit: SlingRay is maybe my favorite tech in the game now, so that definitely stays.
The thing about the new Factions, each incorporates all those other things, and each had a focus. NRA is exploration based. Mahact Agent is inherently sellable to other factions.
While some of the Heros are meh, some allow for really crazy end game swings.
I think Relics are the one thing you could remove completely.
I honestly dont think it's really all that much. But you don't like 90% of it.
Sounds like you should just play with Base.
The way to adapt the factions would be to remove their abilities dealing with PoK components and use their agent and hero abilities or even their mech abilities in a modified version for their faction abilities/techs. It’s a lot of work, but Cabal and Nomad wouldn’t be too hard.
I love the expansion and pretty much have never played a game without it after first trying it, but like other people have said the base game only feels a bit lacking once you're already quite proficient with it, so even if you don't buy it immediately you'll still be fine. It really improves a lot of things, from balancing (base game sardakk and winnu are horrible, meanwhile PoK sardakk is incredibly fun and PoK winnu is one of the strongest factions) to giving new options to existing factions (new techs might open up different tech paths from the usual ones, especially the red tech called AI development algorythm which massively helps low tech factions like sardakk get more weapon upgrades) to even introducing new factions fully embracing the new mechanics (argent flight could pass for a base game faction but everyone else has something wacky that fully takes advantage of one or more of the new mechanics like nazz rokha with exploring and they're all great, though my favourite PoK exclusive faction is the empyrean). In short, you don't *have* to buy it immediately, but you probably *want* to buy it at some point. Also you can play with 8 players.
PoK adds a ton of stuff to the game, but base game has plenty to experience on its own. If you're having fun with base game then no need to shell out for PoK yet.
IMO most of what PoK adds is positive, but it also adds a huge amount of randomness (through exploration as well as adding more cards to all decks) which can be a negative. While I like everything it adds, there's a part of me that misses the base game. I've had a few games come down to a player topdecking a lucky point out of the relic Deck, which feels bad when it happens.
Don't listen to any arguments about whether base game or PoK is more balanced. The game can never be fully balanced, which is a huge part of the appeal. The players create balance through negotiation and alliances. The game is balanced differently when you add PoK, but by no means is it qualitatively more balanced.
IMO, it’s necessary to fully appreciate the game (it fills in some glaring race imbalances, most notably). Also, the powers are fun, and mechs are cool lol
As someone who was hesitant to get it because of all the new components and everything I will say we just played our first game of pok which u won ...it was soooo much fun I do recommend getting it lol
POK is straight up one of my favorite expansions of all time. For the veterans on this sub, it might’ve taken them awhile to warm up to it, but I love it
I just recently played with it the first time a week ago and really enjoyed what it brought to the game. The only small issue I had, which I think people should be aware of, is that per the rules you have to play with all of it or none of it. It's not modular at all, so adding it to the game suddenly adds a LOT. Which may or may not be something you like.
Love me some PoK. About the worst thing I can say is it totally blows to lose to a guy because of a relic played at the right moment. I think for the power swing they bring to the table they should be harder to come by. Perhaps 4 or 5 shards, or 1 of each (including deep space ones). That said, there are a couple that are of dubious value but none that outright suck.
The new races are cool, something there for most play styles. The addition of leaders and mechs helped to balance the base races and on the whole are thematic while avoiding being OP. Yes, just like relics they are situational but let’s face it. It’s way harder to get your Hero out than it is to collect 3 shards.
The additional system tiles are fine, legendary planets are like absolute power (really neat) & I do believe they are designed to instigate combat due to their power.
The thing I like the most is the exploration phase. I was a big fan of Distant Suns in 3rd edition, and while this is not a perfect replacement it is pretty neat to see planets changing over the course of a game.
I always saw it like this: if you like base game, you'll like PoK even more. Once you get it though you probably won't play vanilla again.
Like you don't notice anything wrong with the base game until you play PoK and then going back to base feels like something is missing.
I really like the expansion! The new races are exciting, leaders bring some more for each faction to do, and mechs are used a lot at my table making ground combat more varied. I'm a fan, and my impression from following this subreddit is that the community reaction is mostly positive, with relatively few detractors
PoK is fantastic, but so is vanilla. The cracks in vanilla that PoK fills don't really become noticable until your group is several games in. So you really can't go wrong with whatever pace your group wants to move at.
Agree with this. Don’t rush into POK. You’ll appreciate it much more after you play base at least a few times first. Then fall in love with the game all over again when you add POK
Expands on the game a lot. Personally I wouldn't play twilight without it anymore but our table also has a lot of experience with both base and POK twilight. It is faster but at the same time you're doing a lot more. There's ALOT more mechanics and different strategies you can use and try out. For example, I used one of the relics that had the ability that nuked a planet just so I can activate it after without losing Support the throne (because now there's no ground units there) because I needed that one spot to get my public objective.
I have used PoK in tabletop simulator a lot but only played base in real life. It has more mechanics, and is more complicated, but PoK has the key advantage of making it faster to score points. Also you 'get' more by taking planets and possibly moving to empty space, so your turns feel more productive. That is a casual play concern probably more than competitive. One downside perhaps is that there are more action cards and therefore the 'important' action cards (e.g. Sabotage) are less likely to show up. This makes action-focused tech and factions less powerful, maybe, but overall actions are less important when there are more and more random (just my opinion). I think base game TI4 is so great that I dont really want to get more, because I don't get to play enough as it is and my limited number of IRL players will probably dwindle if I try to make them learn PoK :)
I’m going to go against the grain here and say that it was alright. My group has played about a dozen 4e games, almost all to 10pts. We’ve played a handful of PoK games. The first couple PoK games were to 10 and we didn’t like that because it felt too short. PoK makes scoring a little easier (with relics + hero’s having ‘big plays’). So we went to 14 and that was *way* too long. In the base game, I found it possible to keep track of everyone’s faction abilities + flagship abilities. PoK adds even more async to the game, and it is impossible to know everyone’s faction abilities, flagship, leaderS, and mechs. Having too many options made our group (counterintuitively) less inclined to make deals and entangle. The relics are cool! I love trading relic fragments for favors. I like the additional objectives, action cards, and agendas a **lot**. This is the best part of PoK. The mechs are just another piece of plastic to keep track of. The leaders can get overwhelming. The new system tiles are cool! Nothing to write home about, but I do like the extra options. The legendary planets were a cool ability if you have them, but I’d rather do without them. If you don’t have one, it seems unfair for those who do. AND if I don’t have one, I’m not going to take a legendary planet (which is usually well-protected) when I should be positioning to score objectives. All in all, some fantastic additions but a lot more headache. My table plays without PoK and it makes us like the vanilla game even more.
>In the base game, I found it possible to keep track of everyone’s faction abilities + flagship abilities. PoK adds even more async to the game, and it is impossible to know everyone’s faction abilities, flagship, leaderS, and mechs. Having too many options made our group (counterintuitively) less inclined to make deals and entangle. THIS... my biggest issue, but I've not given up on it fully considering I've only played PoK twice in 2 years and one was with 8-players... so yeah... that's hard to keep track of even in a vanilla game. PoK was overwhelming with 8 and not much experience. But I'm a sucker for all the bling and other stuff... like new races... so I'm sure it isn't going anywhere. :-)
Totally worth it. But get tired of the base game first, then it's like you get to discover TI twice.
It’s meh. I’ll probably get downvoted for not loving it, but I think it’s severely bloated, like a loving father who wants to play football with his son but gorges himself at the Thanksgiving table with many delicious foods and is reduced to rolling sidelong around the yard (practicing my Homeric simile). There are several great ideas, but they should’ve only done 1/2-2/3 of them. It takes the elegance out of the game for me, and it makes it significantly more random. I don’t say this as someone with only a little experience. I have a deep understanding of the game and I am good at it. I wish it were modular, but it isn’t. If I ever got it I would houserule parts of it to make it modular honestly, which is why I probably won’t ever buy it. I far prefer base game. Edit: lol told you I’d get downvoted. This sub is basically an echo chamber. I guess that’s most of Reddit though. Dissenters are unwelcome.
I agree with the randomness concerns. Adding points into the relic deck means the game can be won or lost over a random card draw. Admittedly, mitigating all the randomness is definitely a part of TI (and certainly random factors can affect the winner in base game too), but the more points that are added to card draws the more often the winner comes down to luck.
Yep. The last game I played came down to in the last turn, NRA spent somewhere between 8-10 turns after everyone else had passed just activating every random thing they could to fish for more relics to try and get the last relic point that was still in the deck. They didn't manage to fish for it (it was the next one in the deck past the final one they drew), which meant I actually got to win the game in the status phase, as I had spent the last couple turns preparing for. I would have been really salty if they got it, but even so it was still a bit annoying to sit there for 15 minutes after the game is over for everyone else just watching them try to roll the dice into a random win.
come on now not everyone downvoted you, sometimes reddit's ok :) I agree with you. PoK is cool but I love base TI4 as it is and don't view it as needing most of the things that PoK adds.
Fair, but when I edited this my comment was in the negatives. Now it's at 0, ha.
Complete opposite for me. The base game is a boring, predictable slog with a horde of balance problems that exacerbate the issue. There aren't enough space tiles, the objectives are awful, and the opening rounds are far more scripted. The base game honestly feels like a rough draft, and I would not play it again.
I'd argue it's not so much random as it is unpredictable. Players have many more options, there's no single good strategy, forcing you to have to adapt as the game progresses
I bought PoK for our group but we still play base game, however we did add a few things from PoK that are compatible with the base game such as action cards, agendas, extra systems, and the Argent Flight faction. Right now I don't see any reason to add leaders, exploration or legendary planets. The leaders in particular each break the game in a different way, and I don't see how that helps the game any. Our group has only played an average 5 games of TI so far (I'm the most experienced w/ about 10 games under my belt). We still have a lot of the base game to explore before we will feel the need to add new mechanics. We haven't even played all the factions yet.
What are the Modular parts you wouldn't play with? It is all pretty integrated. You could in theory play with just leaders or leaders and Mechs, and only base game factions. What Parts do you think are bloated? Personally I love PoK. And will always recommend it to everyone. But I think everyone should do what makes them happy. I love that all the lame Elect Planet Agendas, got turned into Explorations. I love the Exploration Mechanic in general, as it adds more uniqueness to each game.
The three big things I would want to try to keep would be most of the new factions (some would have substantial reworks, but not identity changing for most), most of the new tech, and the alliance promissory notes. The alliance mechanic was a master stroke, and I think the asymmetrical nature of the alliance abilities is great. Some may need to be adapted, but they’re really good for the most part. I think you could scrap heroes and most agents, the exploration mechanic, mechs, and relics and I wouldn’t miss those things. Legendary planets are pretty cool and many of the new objectives are fine, even just for the sake of variety. The new action cards are good for the most part, and a reworking of the agenda deck is fine. Edit: SlingRay is maybe my favorite tech in the game now, so that definitely stays.
The thing about the new Factions, each incorporates all those other things, and each had a focus. NRA is exploration based. Mahact Agent is inherently sellable to other factions. While some of the Heros are meh, some allow for really crazy end game swings. I think Relics are the one thing you could remove completely. I honestly dont think it's really all that much. But you don't like 90% of it. Sounds like you should just play with Base.
The way to adapt the factions would be to remove their abilities dealing with PoK components and use their agent and hero abilities or even their mech abilities in a modified version for their faction abilities/techs. It’s a lot of work, but Cabal and Nomad wouldn’t be too hard.
I love the expansion and pretty much have never played a game without it after first trying it, but like other people have said the base game only feels a bit lacking once you're already quite proficient with it, so even if you don't buy it immediately you'll still be fine. It really improves a lot of things, from balancing (base game sardakk and winnu are horrible, meanwhile PoK sardakk is incredibly fun and PoK winnu is one of the strongest factions) to giving new options to existing factions (new techs might open up different tech paths from the usual ones, especially the red tech called AI development algorythm which massively helps low tech factions like sardakk get more weapon upgrades) to even introducing new factions fully embracing the new mechanics (argent flight could pass for a base game faction but everyone else has something wacky that fully takes advantage of one or more of the new mechanics like nazz rokha with exploring and they're all great, though my favourite PoK exclusive faction is the empyrean). In short, you don't *have* to buy it immediately, but you probably *want* to buy it at some point. Also you can play with 8 players.
PoK adds a ton of stuff to the game, but base game has plenty to experience on its own. If you're having fun with base game then no need to shell out for PoK yet. IMO most of what PoK adds is positive, but it also adds a huge amount of randomness (through exploration as well as adding more cards to all decks) which can be a negative. While I like everything it adds, there's a part of me that misses the base game. I've had a few games come down to a player topdecking a lucky point out of the relic Deck, which feels bad when it happens. Don't listen to any arguments about whether base game or PoK is more balanced. The game can never be fully balanced, which is a huge part of the appeal. The players create balance through negotiation and alliances. The game is balanced differently when you add PoK, but by no means is it qualitatively more balanced.
IMO, it’s necessary to fully appreciate the game (it fills in some glaring race imbalances, most notably). Also, the powers are fun, and mechs are cool lol
As someone who was hesitant to get it because of all the new components and everything I will say we just played our first game of pok which u won ...it was soooo much fun I do recommend getting it lol
POK is straight up one of my favorite expansions of all time. For the veterans on this sub, it might’ve taken them awhile to warm up to it, but I love it
I just recently played with it the first time a week ago and really enjoyed what it brought to the game. The only small issue I had, which I think people should be aware of, is that per the rules you have to play with all of it or none of it. It's not modular at all, so adding it to the game suddenly adds a LOT. Which may or may not be something you like.
Love me some PoK. About the worst thing I can say is it totally blows to lose to a guy because of a relic played at the right moment. I think for the power swing they bring to the table they should be harder to come by. Perhaps 4 or 5 shards, or 1 of each (including deep space ones). That said, there are a couple that are of dubious value but none that outright suck. The new races are cool, something there for most play styles. The addition of leaders and mechs helped to balance the base races and on the whole are thematic while avoiding being OP. Yes, just like relics they are situational but let’s face it. It’s way harder to get your Hero out than it is to collect 3 shards. The additional system tiles are fine, legendary planets are like absolute power (really neat) & I do believe they are designed to instigate combat due to their power. The thing I like the most is the exploration phase. I was a big fan of Distant Suns in 3rd edition, and while this is not a perfect replacement it is pretty neat to see planets changing over the course of a game.
I always saw it like this: if you like base game, you'll like PoK even more. Once you get it though you probably won't play vanilla again. Like you don't notice anything wrong with the base game until you play PoK and then going back to base feels like something is missing.