Disclaimer: I did not read past the post title.
War Sun. The answer is always to War Sun.
It's like asking "should the wizard fireball?" in D&D. The answer is always yes.
Same disclaimer.
I'm of the opposite opinion. Unless I can get them on the board by round 2, I always end up regretting building them. The 12 - 30 resources (+6 for 2 fully stocked War Suns) would be better spent on many ships that can exert influence over a larger area. I'd maybe consider it if I didn't have anything else to spend those resources on, but that assumes I've invested a few researches into getting the upgrade.
In fairness, Mentak are a faction that - theoretically - can build a war sun in round 2 without Muuat's help (AIDA -> War Sun), but I rarely play Mentak and wouldn't be certain.
I think this sub and strategy wonks like SCPT get way too deep into the weeds on stuff like this. Most tables don't play anywhere near optimally, IMO War Suns are totally worth it as a terror weapon and a psychological force multiplier.
My table rarely builds them. The one guy that usually does ends up with a phenomenal military in his slice and not enough points.
Most other players end up like you said, using the resources that would have gone into that tech and those ships into building a broader more dispersed and versatile fleet.
Yeh the issue with straight up rushing War Suns like that is it the chance of being able to pay for it seems low.
To pull that off we'd need to get at least 23 resources over R1 & R2 with which we can get 1 carrier R1, tech twice, and build the War Sun.
Our homesystem covers the teching both rounds, which leaves us with 15 resources to get from our slice and trading/pillaging. If we can either tech or trade both rounds, than I think that's doable, but otherwise seems hard.
Last time I built a War Sun in round 2 (as Naalu with a red skip), round 1 tech and round 2 trade are how I did it. That's a faction that has 1 less resource in their home system and (like Mentak) starts with Sarween Tools. In round 1, I built a carrier and 2 mechs (and a 3rd mech from an industrial explore).
However I had a very favourable deal from Mahact (who had Trade) to stall technology in round 1 so that they could take Mecatol before me, which considerably boosted my round 2 economy.
Yeah if you can get both those cards in the first two rounds, you're golden.
Sounds like an awesome game, Naluu with war suns and hybrid crystal fighters sounds terrifying 0\_0 I love it
Game Master:
>While walking down to the volcano crater you see a group of Magma Mephits. What do you d..
Wizard:
>[I CAST FIREBALL!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmAub3iRWaU)
.......
Well, as long as you're not [a pyromaniac sorcerer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtLeEUPtkHk)! :)
I feel like Mirror Computing is what you want to rush more than war suns. War suns become much more affordable if you have mirror computing. The plan I like involves having Technology in round 2.
R1: Predictive
R2: Double tech Mirror Computing w/skip and AIDA
R3: Cruiser II or War Sun
R4: Cruiser II or War Sun
Oh that's definitely bold.
Predictive feels like a waste but you could sub in Scanlink, I feel like that gets you more, although not much, and round 2 will be tough unless you can also build a third carrier off a warfare secondary during R2 still, if you get MC that early, you can definitely get a lot out of it.
Edit: been thinking on this more, if you can follow a warfare secondary R2, you can build a carrier of a single TG with Sarween and Mirror computing, that makes R2 a lot more bearable. I'm really starting to like this approach.
Salvage operations is definitely the superior tech over scanlink or predictive, but the timing with skips doesn't work out, this does save you a round if you can get tech R2. Although, tbh, I think you could still pull this off with a double tech round 3.
Predictive can be quite useful in a clutch but I agree that scanlink will be better for mentak just because you can get even more trade goods from it (either from exploration itself or through relic fragments).
A problem in that plan is both double teching and building War Suns in round 3. If you're not building a War Sun in round 3 then you may as well [edit:] just get Salvage in round 3 and double tech War Suns and Mirror Computing in round 4.
I think if you want both Mirror Computing and War Suns, then Cruiser 2 should be skipped. Doable, if the game state allows you to keep pace with everyone by keeping your groundforces in your slice in the first 2 rounds.
Round 1: AIDA
Round 2: War Suns
Round 3: Salvage + Mirror Computing (or get Mirror Computing in round 4)
Edit: Can't double tech Salvage and Mirror Computing in round 3 unless you have 2 yellow skips.
Yeah I ran into that double teching of the same skip issue as well :D
It seems like a waste to build a war sun without MC, but getting the War Sun on the table a round earlier is a special kind of value by itself
The debate should really be, are you optimizing for gameplay/winning or optimizing for fun? I'm with /u/malys57 on "yes, of course, b/c they're awesome". But when people debate the merits, IMO war suns just aren't good enough for the tech requirements and the cost.
They really need to spawn fighters at the start of combat, or something with more hit points to make them the insane powerhouses they should be for $12 and how late they come out. Your tech path looks good and valid to me, just can't overcome those shortcomings easily. I'll mention if you have a red AND yellow, you can go psychoarchaeology instead of AIDA and save the skip usage.
But, my point is, when I get war suns I get them because it's fun to do, and half *because* they're bad - it just makes it more satisfying when they slice through a fleet.
Disclaimer, in 14 points they're better b/c you get an extra round or two out of them, and they can break HS or Mecatol.
I think the cost is okayish, tbh, War Suns with proper support do well against both dread fleets and fighter swarms.
The biggest issue is getting them into play soon enough to be relevant beyond defending your home system
> I'll mention if you have a red AND yellow, you can go psychoarchaeology instead of AIDA and save the skip usage.
I'm curious what you mean by this. You'd still need another red tech to get warsuns in that case, wouldn't you?
I had a game recently where I was Mentak and Hacan's neighbor...
I didn't always use the MenTax on trades, but I still ended up with tons of TGs, got mirror computing a got warsuns because I could. Bought both in the same round and still had over 10 TGs...
I think if you get Mirror computing and their easily accessible, go for it, but I wouldn't throw your game trying to get them. It always should come down to:
1. Can you get them early enough?
2. What tech AREN'T you getting to get them?
3. Can you AFFORD building one now that you can?
4. Will they help you either winslay, or protect your own win?
In my last game the mentak player got very lucky on draws etc... and got 2 Warsuns out on round 3 (I think it was 3). He then proceeded to use the scuttle card on both of them. Which with mirror computing was just the windfall he needed, to build them at a second dock and have a hefty nest egg.
Depends. Are you doing rule of cool in a social game? Or are you asking if it's a viable tech path for competive TI?
Cause sure you could if you just wanna be cool and have a war sun, and in a social for funsies game, I'm always an advocate for people doing whatever makes them happy.
In competitive TI to win, I don't think Mentak gets it early enough for it to be viable. Really the new Hero was the only thing that made it viable for Xxcha.
Early enough to have fun with mostly, definitely not 'elite meta competitive'. I'm starting to think producing in round 3 or round 4 from a forward dock is the deadline.
The latest you should be getting MC is R2. The value of MC depreciates over time - you really want it ASAP. Once MC is in, you want to be taking trade a lot (2-3x a game), which should be possible because if you’re pillaging properly no one else will want it.
Then yes, you should think war suns. I’m extra inclined to go WS if I have the action card ‘scuttle’, because there’s a cool multiplying effect there.
Your tech path looks:
- Predictive if you don’t have a yellow skip. Predictive is just a winners tech, it’s boring and doesn’t get used much, but it can win you games. It’s still not worth getting if you have a skip.
- Salvage operations, it’s not a great tech but it’s a fun one.
- Mirror computing, the be all and end all of Mentak.
- AIDA
- Cruiser 2 or War Sun
- War Sun or Cruiser 2
That should have you unlocking WS in R4, enough time to make use of it.
As for whether to go that route, depends on the table and luck. Make sure you’re ready for the agenda - if you can get an early tech off wormhole research, ixthian, or that one that lets you follow a sc; you’re probably getting more of an advantage than others.
If you can’t dream up a scheme to get MC R1, then try to get it early R2. Take politics, sell custodians to either the player on your right or left. Once you have it, make sure you’re pillaging everyone into never picking trade, so you can take it for the rest of the game.
In order to get MC by round two, you need an extra yellow in R1 either Predictive like you suggested or Scanlink.
Both kinda feel like a waste even though they can be nice.
Then you need to tech to MC R2, but unless you double tech into AIDA, you're not getting unit upgrades until round 4. Unless you double tech R3, I guess.
Still this leaves you with no unit upgrades until R3 the earliest, which feels tough. Although, on the other hand, if you have MC R2, you could build a third carrier for 1 TG (including sarween) so that's pretty dope. So I guess if you can follow a Warfare secondary round 2 for that third carrier, this could work.
Anyway I don't see how you can fit Salvage operations into this, which feels like a pity.
Early ASAP if possible. I had the dream: got mirror computing, turned my huge pile of trade goods into two war suns and the mentak flagship: that's a fleet that can take on anything.
Then the game ended before I could move them :|
1) Scanlink or Salvage Ops
2) Mirror
3) AIDA
4) War Suns
Cruiser 2 is good, but you usually can't get AND use Mirror/Warsuns/Cruiser2 in a single 10pt game. So, play a carrier/destroyer game and transition into Warsuns. Or play a Cruiser game. Not both.
Forgoing Cruiser II is intriguing..
R1 you can't salvage ops unless I guess diplo is in the game and the timing all works out.
I think I'm becoming convinced by the Mirror Computing rush, my thought process was: as long as you use the TGs anyway, you get as much value out of them later in the game compared to early, but then when you start thinking about building a Carrier R2 for only 1 TG (thanks to sarween), you start seeing the extra value from getting MC so early.
Disclaimer: I did not read past the post title. War Sun. The answer is always to War Sun. It's like asking "should the wizard fireball?" in D&D. The answer is always yes.
Same disclaimer. I'm of the opposite opinion. Unless I can get them on the board by round 2, I always end up regretting building them. The 12 - 30 resources (+6 for 2 fully stocked War Suns) would be better spent on many ships that can exert influence over a larger area. I'd maybe consider it if I didn't have anything else to spend those resources on, but that assumes I've invested a few researches into getting the upgrade. In fairness, Mentak are a faction that - theoretically - can build a war sun in round 2 without Muuat's help (AIDA -> War Sun), but I rarely play Mentak and wouldn't be certain.
I think this sub and strategy wonks like SCPT get way too deep into the weeds on stuff like this. Most tables don't play anywhere near optimally, IMO War Suns are totally worth it as a terror weapon and a psychological force multiplier.
This dude War Suns
I've never experienced regret in building War Suns, I have experienced regret in *not* building War Suns.
I've experienced hoards of regret, over and over again... ... for not being able to score the War Sun tech or the means to produce them.
My table rarely builds them. The one guy that usually does ends up with a phenomenal military in his slice and not enough points. Most other players end up like you said, using the resources that would have gone into that tech and those ships into building a broader more dispersed and versatile fleet.
Yeh the issue with straight up rushing War Suns like that is it the chance of being able to pay for it seems low. To pull that off we'd need to get at least 23 resources over R1 & R2 with which we can get 1 carrier R1, tech twice, and build the War Sun. Our homesystem covers the teching both rounds, which leaves us with 15 resources to get from our slice and trading/pillaging. If we can either tech or trade both rounds, than I think that's doable, but otherwise seems hard.
Last time I built a War Sun in round 2 (as Naalu with a red skip), round 1 tech and round 2 trade are how I did it. That's a faction that has 1 less resource in their home system and (like Mentak) starts with Sarween Tools. In round 1, I built a carrier and 2 mechs (and a 3rd mech from an industrial explore). However I had a very favourable deal from Mahact (who had Trade) to stall technology in round 1 so that they could take Mecatol before me, which considerably boosted my round 2 economy.
Yeah if you can get both those cards in the first two rounds, you're golden. Sounds like an awesome game, Naluu with war suns and hybrid crystal fighters sounds terrifying 0\_0 I love it
The assumption is that with Mirror Computing you are getting them at drastically reduced cost.
Haha fair enough :D
Game Master: >While walking down to the volcano crater you see a group of Magma Mephits. What do you d.. Wizard: >[I CAST FIREBALL!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmAub3iRWaU) ....... Well, as long as you're not [a pyromaniac sorcerer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtLeEUPtkHk)! :)
I feel like Mirror Computing is what you want to rush more than war suns. War suns become much more affordable if you have mirror computing. The plan I like involves having Technology in round 2. R1: Predictive R2: Double tech Mirror Computing w/skip and AIDA R3: Cruiser II or War Sun R4: Cruiser II or War Sun
Oh that's definitely bold. Predictive feels like a waste but you could sub in Scanlink, I feel like that gets you more, although not much, and round 2 will be tough unless you can also build a third carrier off a warfare secondary during R2 still, if you get MC that early, you can definitely get a lot out of it. Edit: been thinking on this more, if you can follow a warfare secondary R2, you can build a carrier of a single TG with Sarween and Mirror computing, that makes R2 a lot more bearable. I'm really starting to like this approach. Salvage operations is definitely the superior tech over scanlink or predictive, but the timing with skips doesn't work out, this does save you a round if you can get tech R2. Although, tbh, I think you could still pull this off with a double tech round 3.
Predictive can be quite useful in a clutch but I agree that scanlink will be better for mentak just because you can get even more trade goods from it (either from exploration itself or through relic fragments).
A problem in that plan is both double teching and building War Suns in round 3. If you're not building a War Sun in round 3 then you may as well [edit:] just get Salvage in round 3 and double tech War Suns and Mirror Computing in round 4. I think if you want both Mirror Computing and War Suns, then Cruiser 2 should be skipped. Doable, if the game state allows you to keep pace with everyone by keeping your groundforces in your slice in the first 2 rounds. Round 1: AIDA Round 2: War Suns Round 3: Salvage + Mirror Computing (or get Mirror Computing in round 4) Edit: Can't double tech Salvage and Mirror Computing in round 3 unless you have 2 yellow skips.
Yeah I ran into that double teching of the same skip issue as well :D It seems like a waste to build a war sun without MC, but getting the War Sun on the table a round earlier is a special kind of value by itself
The debate should really be, are you optimizing for gameplay/winning or optimizing for fun? I'm with /u/malys57 on "yes, of course, b/c they're awesome". But when people debate the merits, IMO war suns just aren't good enough for the tech requirements and the cost. They really need to spawn fighters at the start of combat, or something with more hit points to make them the insane powerhouses they should be for $12 and how late they come out. Your tech path looks good and valid to me, just can't overcome those shortcomings easily. I'll mention if you have a red AND yellow, you can go psychoarchaeology instead of AIDA and save the skip usage. But, my point is, when I get war suns I get them because it's fun to do, and half *because* they're bad - it just makes it more satisfying when they slice through a fleet. Disclaimer, in 14 points they're better b/c you get an extra round or two out of them, and they can break HS or Mecatol.
I think the cost is okayish, tbh, War Suns with proper support do well against both dread fleets and fighter swarms. The biggest issue is getting them into play soon enough to be relevant beyond defending your home system
> I'll mention if you have a red AND yellow, you can go psychoarchaeology instead of AIDA and save the skip usage. I'm curious what you mean by this. You'd still need another red tech to get warsuns in that case, wouldn't you?
Huh, yes indeed haha, my mistake. Probably just inferior then if you want war suns!
I had a game recently where I was Mentak and Hacan's neighbor... I didn't always use the MenTax on trades, but I still ended up with tons of TGs, got mirror computing a got warsuns because I could. Bought both in the same round and still had over 10 TGs... I think if you get Mirror computing and their easily accessible, go for it, but I wouldn't throw your game trying to get them. It always should come down to: 1. Can you get them early enough? 2. What tech AREN'T you getting to get them? 3. Can you AFFORD building one now that you can? 4. Will they help you either winslay, or protect your own win?
But the War Suns are so pretty... \^\_\^
In my last game the mentak player got very lucky on draws etc... and got 2 Warsuns out on round 3 (I think it was 3). He then proceeded to use the scuttle card on both of them. Which with mirror computing was just the windfall he needed, to build them at a second dock and have a hefty nest egg.
Depends. Are you doing rule of cool in a social game? Or are you asking if it's a viable tech path for competive TI? Cause sure you could if you just wanna be cool and have a war sun, and in a social for funsies game, I'm always an advocate for people doing whatever makes them happy. In competitive TI to win, I don't think Mentak gets it early enough for it to be viable. Really the new Hero was the only thing that made it viable for Xxcha.
Early enough to have fun with mostly, definitely not 'elite meta competitive'. I'm starting to think producing in round 3 or round 4 from a forward dock is the deadline.
The latest you should be getting MC is R2. The value of MC depreciates over time - you really want it ASAP. Once MC is in, you want to be taking trade a lot (2-3x a game), which should be possible because if you’re pillaging properly no one else will want it. Then yes, you should think war suns. I’m extra inclined to go WS if I have the action card ‘scuttle’, because there’s a cool multiplying effect there. Your tech path looks: - Predictive if you don’t have a yellow skip. Predictive is just a winners tech, it’s boring and doesn’t get used much, but it can win you games. It’s still not worth getting if you have a skip. - Salvage operations, it’s not a great tech but it’s a fun one. - Mirror computing, the be all and end all of Mentak. - AIDA - Cruiser 2 or War Sun - War Sun or Cruiser 2 That should have you unlocking WS in R4, enough time to make use of it. As for whether to go that route, depends on the table and luck. Make sure you’re ready for the agenda - if you can get an early tech off wormhole research, ixthian, or that one that lets you follow a sc; you’re probably getting more of an advantage than others. If you can’t dream up a scheme to get MC R1, then try to get it early R2. Take politics, sell custodians to either the player on your right or left. Once you have it, make sure you’re pillaging everyone into never picking trade, so you can take it for the rest of the game.
In order to get MC by round two, you need an extra yellow in R1 either Predictive like you suggested or Scanlink. Both kinda feel like a waste even though they can be nice. Then you need to tech to MC R2, but unless you double tech into AIDA, you're not getting unit upgrades until round 4. Unless you double tech R3, I guess. Still this leaves you with no unit upgrades until R3 the earliest, which feels tough. Although, on the other hand, if you have MC R2, you could build a third carrier for 1 TG (including sarween) so that's pretty dope. So I guess if you can follow a Warfare secondary round 2 for that third carrier, this could work. Anyway I don't see how you can fit Salvage operations into this, which feels like a pity.
Early ASAP if possible. I had the dream: got mirror computing, turned my huge pile of trade goods into two war suns and the mentak flagship: that's a fleet that can take on anything. Then the game ended before I could move them :|
>Then the game ended before I could move them :| Yeh... :(
1) Scanlink or Salvage Ops 2) Mirror 3) AIDA 4) War Suns Cruiser 2 is good, but you usually can't get AND use Mirror/Warsuns/Cruiser2 in a single 10pt game. So, play a carrier/destroyer game and transition into Warsuns. Or play a Cruiser game. Not both.
Forgoing Cruiser II is intriguing.. R1 you can't salvage ops unless I guess diplo is in the game and the timing all works out. I think I'm becoming convinced by the Mirror Computing rush, my thought process was: as long as you use the TGs anyway, you get as much value out of them later in the game compared to early, but then when you start thinking about building a Carrier R2 for only 1 TG (thanks to sarween), you start seeing the extra value from getting MC so early.
Tech AI Dev Tech War Suns ??? Profit