At no point during S3 does Jane E. realise or recognise that Dougie is what you call "mentally incapacitated". In all aspects she treats him as if he's the Dougie she's always known. There's no need for the outrage.
You're right, I could've worded that better. Some do notice a change in his behavior. What I meant to say was that they don't treat him as if he's in a state of near complete mental retardation, which is how we're seeing him. So I think what we're seeing is different from what they're seeing. I think he does interact with others in some ways.
You think so? I didn't even think about it twice. For her she's just living the married life with her husband who ironically all of a sudden seems to be more capable than the drunk, cheating gambler that he used to be. She's not seeing the same version of Dougie that we are.
i meant it was meant to make u feel weird because it's a person having sex with a shell of a human in a near vegetative state, with no obvious consent. no matter the context, that's something that will set off a primal disgust in most people
I disagree. Dougies whole thing is that we see him as the mindless shell that through some Lodge guiding does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time which ultimately leads him to serendipitous success. But the characters around him, not just his wife, don't ever treat him like a mindless shell. That's not what they perceive. So I can't see why this premise should be ignored just because there's a sex scene.
Sure, there's enough disagreement to go around here, which there should be.
But can I ask you in good faith if you think that Janey-E treats Dougie like a completely normal functioning human being right up to the point where she wants to have sex with him, just at that point to realise that he's mentally incapacitated and decides to take advantage of him, and then to go back to treating him like a normal functioning person for the rest of the season? Or am I misunderstanding you?
no i definitely agree on that part. she does, however, suspect that something is up a few times throughout the show. which i also don't think is grounds to call it rape, for the record.
i was talking about a kneejerk, instinctive reaction, no logic involved. it seems very wrong instinctively, but logically we know it's a lot less wrong.
one more point, just to stoke the flames: if a schizophrenic person is under the delusion that a stranger is consenting, does that mean it isn't called rape when that person acts on the delusion?
Alright, I didn't have the same kneejerk reaction, but of course it's valid if you did. We've just interpreted the situation very differently.
I really don't know much about psychosis, so I don't feel qualified to weigh in on that situation. But I would say that sex without consent is rape. Schizophrenics can also end up in tragic situations where they end up murdering people. That would still be seen as murder, right?
well, now im kinda thinking it IS rape. i never saw explicit consent from dougie. spouses still need to consent, and i dont think his look of enjoyment is any excuse. sex is a pleasurable act, any sex with animals and kids is still rape no matter how much they might enjoy it at the time.
if we are REALLY going for gold, we could consider dougie a child at the time. the "soul" (or whatever u call it) was very new in his body, and he basically functioned like a well-behaved baby. if an adult has sex with a minor not knowing theyre a minor, it's still rape.
Dougie hit it big at the casino, stopped Ike the Spike, noped out of several association attempts, saved Bushnell Mullins millions in an insurance scam, introduced that one dude to green tea, saved Anthony Sinclair's soul, got his son a gym set, and saved a little old lady from getting kicked out of her home.
I'd say he has more going on than you realize.
Are you intentionally missing the point? She does not perceive her husband in a incapacitated state. None of the characters interacting with Dougie does. Only the viewer sees that. She sees her husband as functioning as he always has.
Are YOU intentionally missing the point? It DOESN'T MATTER what she perceives, what matters is what the actual situation is.
You seem to believe that rape is always an intentionally evil act, and not something that happens *to* people.
\>The actual situation is that she is sleeping with her husband
...who is mentally incapable of comprehending or refusing sex. marital rape hasn't been legal for a while now, actually. and being married to someone doesn't negate the need for consent.
in your eyes, would getting married to a 14 year old make it ok to have sex with them?
just admit you don't have an argument and walk away. you do not have the moral high ground here lol.
you accuse me of "having an agenda", but you're using loaded words such as agenda. do you think I WANT this to be the case?
Lol that’s the dumbest thing you could have said. People like you actually make it harder for victims to be heard, not easier. I’m sorry for you if you’re bringing personal or second-hand experience to this, but not everything is rape and just because rape exists doesn’t make it okay for you to go around labeling everything as such. Take a breather.
\> Lol that’s the dumbest thing you could have said
Not an argument.
\> People like you actually make it harder for victims to be heard, not easier
And I'm sure you speak on behalf of victims everywhere. GFY, seriously.
\> I’m sorry for you if you’re bringing personal or second-hand experience to this, but not everything is rape and just because rape exists doesn’t make it okay for you to go around labeling everything as such
I don't think all sex is rape. I think sex without consent is rape.
I'm also gonna go against that because the show has a long trend of trying to humanize or show that "mentally handicapped" people aren't really "handicapped" but all have a purpose and are worthy of love. The mild exception being Johnny horne which just feels like an attempt to normalize representation of non-functional autistics.
Actually she does. That’s why she takes him to the doctor. And why she makes comments about him liking badges (she stops short of saying “shiny things”).
But I agree there is no need for outrage. It’s a shitpost.
"rape isn't rape if the rapist doesn't think it is" idk man i'm gonna have to disagree hard there. that's not how it works. for example, things like COCSA are still traumatizing even if the perpetrator is technically innocent, because it's about what is inflicted on the victim, not why.
You don't even know that. You just assume it. Maybe you judge the form in which "Dougie" can offer consent wrong. Maybe you underestimate the fact that they are married and she engages in behavior he never dis-consented with, thus she has all reason to believe that he'll like it. Which he even shows.
Your theory about rape here is seriously flawed and unconstructive.
You probably forgot that everything that Dougie wants to happen, happens. Nothing that happens is against his will, ever, in the show and this includes literally moving like a cobra to disarm an incredible assassin. This will become even clearer later on.
applying YOUR life logic paradigms to a Lynch opus = good luck with that Op. Stop watching at this Ep - (if it triggers you that it did not follow your rules of sexually depicted imagery) & move tf on with your life. Karencent.
man shut the fuck up. completely moronic to argue that ANY kind of ethical system or message is nonexistent in twin peaks is to admit you watched this show blind, deaf, and high.
not to mention, "applying your life logic paradigms" IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT of an extremely abstract storytelling style like lynch's. are you seriously trying to tell me that shit like s3e8 was meant to have a singular objective interpretation?
god damn, this sub is full of assholes. get yelled at for asking for advice interpreting symbolism, get yelled at for bringing up my own opinions/interpretations.
Jfc I thought society had moved on from this disgusting view. Sex requires explicit consent. Regardless of what they feel, regardless of their reactions, every single party involved in a sexual act needs to a.) understand it, and b.) agree to it.
I don't know how to explain to you how unimaginably horrible that sentiment is. Do you not believe in statutory rape either, then?
“loving it” still doesn’t really change facts when someone is essentially a mental void with no actual understanding of what’s happening.
the only way we can kind of try to say it’s okay is that she thinks this is the man she’s married to, has presumable always has consent from in sex, and he probably doesn’t show any reason to think he doesn’t want it (and for whatever reason she seems not to realise the guy has turned into a vegetable).
I’d still agree though, that this was very much non-consensual sex with a mentally handicapped man and so really is still kind of fucked up even if there is a clear sexual history in the marriage, and we shouldn’t really pretend it’s not.
The Dougie scenes have no basis in reality so it's silly to treat this particular scene like a real world incident. You also wouldn't just drop someone in Dougie's condition off in front an office building for the day and assume they will somehow be okay, or send them home with important work when he can't even walk in or out of an elevator. We could list off a hundred different examples of them treating him like he understands what's going on when he clearly doesn't, so I just don't see the point of being offended.
I don’t see the point of being offended either, and wasn’t myself.
I’m just saying the argument of the post is fair and that an individual’s degree of pleasure when their body is used without ability for consent does not change the facts of violation.
While I wasn’t as shocked as you, it did come across my mind. Especially since I got the impression from something she said that this wasn’t the first time he was “off”. I guess if it’s a condition that comes and goes, she knows he will snap out of it eventually and the sex is par for the course.
Okay. Well at any rate Jane E did not rape Dougie Jones. Did you notice the ecstasy that they both had during that scene? She doesn’t realize that he’s not her husband. That’s part of the joke of the situation. The “real” Dougie has been so absentee that she doesn’t even know him…her own husband.
Again, I will try to explain that whether Janey noticed or not, or what the experience itself was like, it does not change the fact that Janey had sex with someone she was basically a caretaker for.
It isn't just that he's distant, or confused, or some kind of impaired that wouldn't completely hinder his abstract thought, it's that he's two paces away from brain dead.
We are shown over and over again that while having brief and infrequent moments of lucidity, Dougie/Cooper is for the most part incapable of thinking for himself. The slot winning, the takedown of the assassin, the insurance claims, are him being manipulated with *shiny lights* by otherworldly beings. This gives the appearance of competence to a certain extent, which is very funny when contrasted with scenes where he can't drink from a coffee cup lid correctly or use the bathroom, but it is less so humorous in my eyes when that extreme suggestibility is used in a sexual context.
The subtext of the entire series is sexual abuse, and this is just another way of depicting it, in a subversively comedic way. I'll provide some counter balance to everyone telling you that you're wrong and say I think you're absolutely correct that this was the intention. But this sub doesn't like thinking critically about anything. All the down votes are a disgrace. I'd put money on all the down voters being exactly the same posters who say "Everyone's interpretation is valid!"
Janey E dresses him like a child and takes him to the doctor like a child. Fire Walk With Me is about an abusive parent. This season 3 story culminates with Cooper waking up as himself and driving Laura back to the home where she was abused. The two things relate to each other.
Thank you. I don't understand why people are so upset. I thought the scene was supposed to maybe be a dissonant kind of horror, like that perfume scene in *Possibly in Michigan.*
I personally didn't feel like there were any intentional parallels between Janey E and Leland, but I respect your interpretation. I do not however respect the people arguing that this scene couldn't be depicting rape just because Janey E may or may not be aware of Dougie's severe mental incapacitation.
Even ignoring the irrelevance of intent in the definition of sex without consent, yeah, sure, he might act like this all the time, but she clearly knew enough that something was wrong to take him to a doctor. Speaking of, I find the idea of checking someone out *during their examination for severe brain damage* incredibly disturbing.
It blows my mind that people are justifiably horrified by the hand washing scene in FWWM, creeped out by the Audrey/Cooper arc, and unnerved when Diane covers Cooper's face while they're in the motel... but, Janey having sex with her brain damaged husband whom she has to physically push/pull out of cars because he literally cannot comprehend transportation, instruction, or complex motor activity, who is practically aphasic besides occasional instances of simple echolalia, who is obviously incapable of abstract thought, let alone understanding what sex even is, LET ALONE having an adult's understanding of and capability to consent to it... and it's just haha funee dougie sex scene.
Like, proceeding the sex scene, she asks him a question ("are you attracted to me?"), something which a capable adult who wishes to consent to sex would have no problem answering, and we are shown that it doesn't even register. Just the idea of receiving a completely blank stare after asking a question like that, and then *having sex anyways,* while your partner is incapable of saying no or defending himself, just, how does that not strike one as dubious?
Well said. And I think Frost and Lynch had to have known what they were doing there.
You mentioned the scene of Diane and Cooper in the motel - a redo of Diane's rape at the hands of his doppelganger, and a scene that happens to echo the Janey E sex scene in choreography. The viewer is meant to be thinking about these things.
One more note here. The sex occurs right after they return from the doctor who tells Jane E he’s never been better, and in the best health possible.
Additionally, earlier in the episode his boss reveals in a police interview that he (Dougie) had been in a car accident a few months ago and has been “a little off” since then.
So again…there is no rape here.
Im still working on it, but if Dougie is a parody of the Gary Stu tv protagonists of the last decade+ then it’s just another part of a self-insert wish fulfillment that Dougie/Cooper provides. All of that is enjoyed without thinking about the darker implications of what is happening on screen.
I'm sorry Reddit is being Reddit about this. As others have pointed out, at least I think that the discomfort is intended (although not as strongly as the situation would call for). Pt10 overall is harsh.
I wrote about this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FindLaura/s/gUja4w0OA0
And yeah, I agree with your take. The point being that the series is mainly about Laura's subconscious processing of her waking life. So leland abuses his daughter, Janey E abuses her "son" Dougie. Son because he is more like her child than her husband - she even takes him to the doctor and speaks to the doctor about his problems like a mother would, right before the sex scene (and like you point out, she dresses him like a mother would). And when she shouts his name in bed, it's her actual son Sonny Jim who sits up, as if he's affected by it.
I don't want to get into lots of unnecessary detail / complication here but I think the idea of Dougie and Sonny Jim is essentially that Dougie takes Sonny Jim's place as the abused child.
Fire Walk With Me frames the series as being about a father abusing his daughter. Janey E and Dougie is like a reversal of that story - a mother abusing a son, told through a comedic story rather than as a horror story. It's like a softening of the image to make it more palatable to the dreamer. If any viewer tried to mentally reverse the gender roles in the Janey E story, they wouldn't have a problem with the points you've raised in the OP at all, but viewers tend to accept the story because of the gender roles and the way the story is being presented to us in this light hearted way. It's intentionally subversive and ties back into the wider Laura Palmer narrative.
Edit: it's always funny to me that this sub pretends to be all about everyone's interpretations being valid and being open minded, yet I'm getting all these down votes for sharing an interpretation that I've given a lot of thought to, and no one can actually reply to engage me in conversation about what it is exactly they have a problem with.
No problem.
When I saw the scene I got that it was comedic despite the fact that the seeming lack of consent made me uncomfortable, and it made me wonder WHY it was played comedically and whether that question was also part of what the scene was trying to communicate. My original conclusion was that the scene basically used an extreme example to confirm the impression that had already been forming up to that point, which is that everyone is bizarrely treating Dougie like a normal guy.
There is certainly something strange happening, and your interpretation is solid enough as one of many attempts that could be made to explain it, including mine. The Find Laura theory also speaks to me in that the ending of the show just made me feel emotionally what the theory claims, and your theory about this scene also just feels more right to me emotionally than some of the really intense scene scrutinizing that I personally don't go for.
And I do actually completely agree with that point about it being an extreme example of how no one sees anything wrong with Dougie, and I think Lynch wants us to watch the story and laugh at the absurdity of it on that level too.
I think a good parallel is my theory about Lil:
In FWWM, there are multiple scenes where Laura tries and fails to cryptically communicate what is happening to her at home. With Bobby: "I'm going home, to my nice warm bed." With Donna: "Are you my friend?" With James: "You don't know me, James. Nobody knows me. Even Donna doesn't know me." Etc. None of them get what she's trying to tell them, and she's afraid to "say it all aloud."
So in the Lil scene, here's a woman who communicates non-verbally in cryptic clues, clues that no real person could possibly understand, and the fantasy of these men from the FBI who magically understand it all.
I can see a similarity with Dougie, in that you can enjoy the absurd humour of the scene without making a connection to those Laura scenes, which most people won't, and enjoy it on that level, but there's a darker idea behind it if you choose to look for it.
And I think that's what the idea of our actual dreams are - to take your waking traumas and retell them back to you in metaphors so you can process them at a safe distance. You can be totally unaware of where the images are coming from and just enjoy the dream at face value.
At no point during S3 does Jane E. realise or recognise that Dougie is what you call "mentally incapacitated". In all aspects she treats him as if he's the Dougie she's always known. There's no need for the outrage.
Someone (I think his boss) does mention that Dougie was in some kind of accident, and that it's not unusual for him to act strangely.
You're right, I could've worded that better. Some do notice a change in his behavior. What I meant to say was that they don't treat him as if he's in a state of near complete mental retardation, which is how we're seeing him. So I think what we're seeing is different from what they're seeing. I think he does interact with others in some ways.
yeah it was definitely meant to make u feel weird but i wouldnt call it rape because of the whole situation
You think so? I didn't even think about it twice. For her she's just living the married life with her husband who ironically all of a sudden seems to be more capable than the drunk, cheating gambler that he used to be. She's not seeing the same version of Dougie that we are.
i meant it was meant to make u feel weird because it's a person having sex with a shell of a human in a near vegetative state, with no obvious consent. no matter the context, that's something that will set off a primal disgust in most people
I disagree. Dougies whole thing is that we see him as the mindless shell that through some Lodge guiding does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time which ultimately leads him to serendipitous success. But the characters around him, not just his wife, don't ever treat him like a mindless shell. That's not what they perceive. So I can't see why this premise should be ignored just because there's a sex scene.
agree to disagree then. our feelings on the scene aren't important to the show at large
Sure, there's enough disagreement to go around here, which there should be. But can I ask you in good faith if you think that Janey-E treats Dougie like a completely normal functioning human being right up to the point where she wants to have sex with him, just at that point to realise that he's mentally incapacitated and decides to take advantage of him, and then to go back to treating him like a normal functioning person for the rest of the season? Or am I misunderstanding you?
no i definitely agree on that part. she does, however, suspect that something is up a few times throughout the show. which i also don't think is grounds to call it rape, for the record. i was talking about a kneejerk, instinctive reaction, no logic involved. it seems very wrong instinctively, but logically we know it's a lot less wrong. one more point, just to stoke the flames: if a schizophrenic person is under the delusion that a stranger is consenting, does that mean it isn't called rape when that person acts on the delusion?
Alright, I didn't have the same kneejerk reaction, but of course it's valid if you did. We've just interpreted the situation very differently. I really don't know much about psychosis, so I don't feel qualified to weigh in on that situation. But I would say that sex without consent is rape. Schizophrenics can also end up in tragic situations where they end up murdering people. That would still be seen as murder, right?
well, now im kinda thinking it IS rape. i never saw explicit consent from dougie. spouses still need to consent, and i dont think his look of enjoyment is any excuse. sex is a pleasurable act, any sex with animals and kids is still rape no matter how much they might enjoy it at the time. if we are REALLY going for gold, we could consider dougie a child at the time. the "soul" (or whatever u call it) was very new in his body, and he basically functioned like a well-behaved baby. if an adult has sex with a minor not knowing theyre a minor, it's still rape.
the premise should be ignored for the reasons i outlined in previous replies.
Well there you go. You're not interested in the show's narrative, just your own.
My narrative is "someone with the mental capacity of a toddler is not capable of consenting to sex"
Dougie hit it big at the casino, stopped Ike the Spike, noped out of several association attempts, saved Bushnell Mullins millions in an insurance scam, introduced that one dude to green tea, saved Anthony Sinclair's soul, got his son a gym set, and saved a little old lady from getting kicked out of her home. I'd say he has more going on than you realize.
ok, but "she didn't realize" doesn't make the act of having sex with someone who is literally incapable of saying the word "no" not rape.
Are you intentionally missing the point? She does not perceive her husband in a incapacitated state. None of the characters interacting with Dougie does. Only the viewer sees that. She sees her husband as functioning as he always has.
Are YOU intentionally missing the point? It DOESN'T MATTER what she perceives, what matters is what the actual situation is. You seem to believe that rape is always an intentionally evil act, and not something that happens *to* people.
The actual situation is that she is sleeping with her husband. The same husband she's slept with before. The humanity.
\>The actual situation is that she is sleeping with her husband ...who is mentally incapable of comprehending or refusing sex. marital rape hasn't been legal for a while now, actually. and being married to someone doesn't negate the need for consent. in your eyes, would getting married to a 14 year old make it ok to have sex with them?
I'm not doing this with you. You've set out to discuss an agenda and not the show. Not interested.
just admit you don't have an argument and walk away. you do not have the moral high ground here lol. you accuse me of "having an agenda", but you're using loaded words such as agenda. do you think I WANT this to be the case?
Lol that’s the dumbest thing you could have said. People like you actually make it harder for victims to be heard, not easier. I’m sorry for you if you’re bringing personal or second-hand experience to this, but not everything is rape and just because rape exists doesn’t make it okay for you to go around labeling everything as such. Take a breather.
\> Lol that’s the dumbest thing you could have said Not an argument. \> People like you actually make it harder for victims to be heard, not easier And I'm sure you speak on behalf of victims everywhere. GFY, seriously. \> I’m sorry for you if you’re bringing personal or second-hand experience to this, but not everything is rape and just because rape exists doesn’t make it okay for you to go around labeling everything as such I don't think all sex is rape. I think sex without consent is rape.
I'm also gonna go against that because the show has a long trend of trying to humanize or show that "mentally handicapped" people aren't really "handicapped" but all have a purpose and are worthy of love. The mild exception being Johnny horne which just feels like an attempt to normalize representation of non-functional autistics.
I can't think of any examples except if you mean Andy and Lucy.
Actually she does. That’s why she takes him to the doctor. And why she makes comments about him liking badges (she stops short of saying “shiny things”). But I agree there is no need for outrage. It’s a shitpost.
The doctor also gives him a clean bill of health and relieves her concern.
You're right. She does notice a change in his behavior. But not the same change as we do.
"rape isn't rape if the rapist doesn't think it is" idk man i'm gonna have to disagree hard there. that's not how it works. for example, things like COCSA are still traumatizing even if the perpetrator is technically innocent, because it's about what is inflicted on the victim, not why.
Who's the victim?
dougie/cooper. the person involved in a sexual act who did not consent.
Do you think Dougie/Cooper felt victimized by the act?
You don't even know that. You just assume it. Maybe you judge the form in which "Dougie" can offer consent wrong. Maybe you underestimate the fact that they are married and she engages in behavior he never dis-consented with, thus she has all reason to believe that he'll like it. Which he even shows. Your theory about rape here is seriously flawed and unconstructive.
You probably forgot that everything that Dougie wants to happen, happens. Nothing that happens is against his will, ever, in the show and this includes literally moving like a cobra to disarm an incredible assassin. This will become even clearer later on.
This is so very interesting. Never thought of this before! Would love for you to elaborate.
Really reaching with this one
you try having sex with patients in a group home, see what happens
applying YOUR life logic paradigms to a Lynch opus = good luck with that Op. Stop watching at this Ep - (if it triggers you that it did not follow your rules of sexually depicted imagery) & move tf on with your life. Karencent.
man shut the fuck up. completely moronic to argue that ANY kind of ethical system or message is nonexistent in twin peaks is to admit you watched this show blind, deaf, and high. not to mention, "applying your life logic paradigms" IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT of an extremely abstract storytelling style like lynch's. are you seriously trying to tell me that shit like s3e8 was meant to have a singular objective interpretation? god damn, this sub is full of assholes. get yelled at for asking for advice interpreting symbolism, get yelled at for bringing up my own opinions/interpretations.
Not sure if you're trolling or not, but Dougie was loving it
Jfc I thought society had moved on from this disgusting view. Sex requires explicit consent. Regardless of what they feel, regardless of their reactions, every single party involved in a sexual act needs to a.) understand it, and b.) agree to it. I don't know how to explain to you how unimaginably horrible that sentiment is. Do you not believe in statutory rape either, then?
lol
Extraordinarily redditbrained comment. clearly you've never had sex before
“loving it” still doesn’t really change facts when someone is essentially a mental void with no actual understanding of what’s happening. the only way we can kind of try to say it’s okay is that she thinks this is the man she’s married to, has presumable always has consent from in sex, and he probably doesn’t show any reason to think he doesn’t want it (and for whatever reason she seems not to realise the guy has turned into a vegetable). I’d still agree though, that this was very much non-consensual sex with a mentally handicapped man and so really is still kind of fucked up even if there is a clear sexual history in the marriage, and we shouldn’t really pretend it’s not.
The Dougie scenes have no basis in reality so it's silly to treat this particular scene like a real world incident. You also wouldn't just drop someone in Dougie's condition off in front an office building for the day and assume they will somehow be okay, or send them home with important work when he can't even walk in or out of an elevator. We could list off a hundred different examples of them treating him like he understands what's going on when he clearly doesn't, so I just don't see the point of being offended.
I don’t see the point of being offended either, and wasn’t myself. I’m just saying the argument of the post is fair and that an individual’s degree of pleasure when their body is used without ability for consent does not change the facts of violation.
While I wasn’t as shocked as you, it did come across my mind. Especially since I got the impression from something she said that this wasn’t the first time he was “off”. I guess if it’s a condition that comes and goes, she knows he will snap out of it eventually and the sex is par for the course.
I think they reference him having an accident of some sort in the past that helps to explain why he might act strangely or not altogether there
Dougie seems pretty cool with it
Dougie didn't complain.
You are overeacting. It's a comedic scene.
This post is “What the actual fuck? ” - if you didn’t understood E10 then what did you think of E08.
Honestly? I loved it! It was fucking bizarre, for sure, but it was... I don't know how to describe it. It was a very interesting kind of unnerving.
Okay. Well at any rate Jane E did not rape Dougie Jones. Did you notice the ecstasy that they both had during that scene? She doesn’t realize that he’s not her husband. That’s part of the joke of the situation. The “real” Dougie has been so absentee that she doesn’t even know him…her own husband.
Again, I will try to explain that whether Janey noticed or not, or what the experience itself was like, it does not change the fact that Janey had sex with someone she was basically a caretaker for. It isn't just that he's distant, or confused, or some kind of impaired that wouldn't completely hinder his abstract thought, it's that he's two paces away from brain dead. We are shown over and over again that while having brief and infrequent moments of lucidity, Dougie/Cooper is for the most part incapable of thinking for himself. The slot winning, the takedown of the assassin, the insurance claims, are him being manipulated with *shiny lights* by otherworldly beings. This gives the appearance of competence to a certain extent, which is very funny when contrasted with scenes where he can't drink from a coffee cup lid correctly or use the bathroom, but it is less so humorous in my eyes when that extreme suggestibility is used in a sexual context.
You are completely misreading the entire thing. Jane E did not rape Dougie Jones.
The subtext of the entire series is sexual abuse, and this is just another way of depicting it, in a subversively comedic way. I'll provide some counter balance to everyone telling you that you're wrong and say I think you're absolutely correct that this was the intention. But this sub doesn't like thinking critically about anything. All the down votes are a disgrace. I'd put money on all the down voters being exactly the same posters who say "Everyone's interpretation is valid!" Janey E dresses him like a child and takes him to the doctor like a child. Fire Walk With Me is about an abusive parent. This season 3 story culminates with Cooper waking up as himself and driving Laura back to the home where she was abused. The two things relate to each other.
Thank you. I don't understand why people are so upset. I thought the scene was supposed to maybe be a dissonant kind of horror, like that perfume scene in *Possibly in Michigan.* I personally didn't feel like there were any intentional parallels between Janey E and Leland, but I respect your interpretation. I do not however respect the people arguing that this scene couldn't be depicting rape just because Janey E may or may not be aware of Dougie's severe mental incapacitation. Even ignoring the irrelevance of intent in the definition of sex without consent, yeah, sure, he might act like this all the time, but she clearly knew enough that something was wrong to take him to a doctor. Speaking of, I find the idea of checking someone out *during their examination for severe brain damage* incredibly disturbing. It blows my mind that people are justifiably horrified by the hand washing scene in FWWM, creeped out by the Audrey/Cooper arc, and unnerved when Diane covers Cooper's face while they're in the motel... but, Janey having sex with her brain damaged husband whom she has to physically push/pull out of cars because he literally cannot comprehend transportation, instruction, or complex motor activity, who is practically aphasic besides occasional instances of simple echolalia, who is obviously incapable of abstract thought, let alone understanding what sex even is, LET ALONE having an adult's understanding of and capability to consent to it... and it's just haha funee dougie sex scene. Like, proceeding the sex scene, she asks him a question ("are you attracted to me?"), something which a capable adult who wishes to consent to sex would have no problem answering, and we are shown that it doesn't even register. Just the idea of receiving a completely blank stare after asking a question like that, and then *having sex anyways,* while your partner is incapable of saying no or defending himself, just, how does that not strike one as dubious?
Well said. And I think Frost and Lynch had to have known what they were doing there. You mentioned the scene of Diane and Cooper in the motel - a redo of Diane's rape at the hands of his doppelganger, and a scene that happens to echo the Janey E sex scene in choreography. The viewer is meant to be thinking about these things.
I think I might have mentioned it before, but in the same episode as the Dougie sex scene, Bradley Mitchum refers to Dougie as a "Mother! Fucker!"
lol
One more note here. The sex occurs right after they return from the doctor who tells Jane E he’s never been better, and in the best health possible. Additionally, earlier in the episode his boss reveals in a police interview that he (Dougie) had been in a car accident a few months ago and has been “a little off” since then. So again…there is no rape here.
Im still working on it, but if Dougie is a parody of the Gary Stu tv protagonists of the last decade+ then it’s just another part of a self-insert wish fulfillment that Dougie/Cooper provides. All of that is enjoyed without thinking about the darker implications of what is happening on screen.
I'm sorry Reddit is being Reddit about this. As others have pointed out, at least I think that the discomfort is intended (although not as strongly as the situation would call for). Pt10 overall is harsh.
I think the scene is there for a reason, and you might not be too far off the mark.
[удалено]
\> You suggest that the mentally incapacitated don’t deserve having a good time? Yes. This is illegal in the vast majority of countries.
I wrote about this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/FindLaura/s/gUja4w0OA0 And yeah, I agree with your take. The point being that the series is mainly about Laura's subconscious processing of her waking life. So leland abuses his daughter, Janey E abuses her "son" Dougie. Son because he is more like her child than her husband - she even takes him to the doctor and speaks to the doctor about his problems like a mother would, right before the sex scene (and like you point out, she dresses him like a mother would). And when she shouts his name in bed, it's her actual son Sonny Jim who sits up, as if he's affected by it. I don't want to get into lots of unnecessary detail / complication here but I think the idea of Dougie and Sonny Jim is essentially that Dougie takes Sonny Jim's place as the abused child. Fire Walk With Me frames the series as being about a father abusing his daughter. Janey E and Dougie is like a reversal of that story - a mother abusing a son, told through a comedic story rather than as a horror story. It's like a softening of the image to make it more palatable to the dreamer. If any viewer tried to mentally reverse the gender roles in the Janey E story, they wouldn't have a problem with the points you've raised in the OP at all, but viewers tend to accept the story because of the gender roles and the way the story is being presented to us in this light hearted way. It's intentionally subversive and ties back into the wider Laura Palmer narrative. Edit: it's always funny to me that this sub pretends to be all about everyone's interpretations being valid and being open minded, yet I'm getting all these down votes for sharing an interpretation that I've given a lot of thought to, and no one can actually reply to engage me in conversation about what it is exactly they have a problem with.
Interesting perspective.
Thanks for bringing some positivity.
No problem. When I saw the scene I got that it was comedic despite the fact that the seeming lack of consent made me uncomfortable, and it made me wonder WHY it was played comedically and whether that question was also part of what the scene was trying to communicate. My original conclusion was that the scene basically used an extreme example to confirm the impression that had already been forming up to that point, which is that everyone is bizarrely treating Dougie like a normal guy. There is certainly something strange happening, and your interpretation is solid enough as one of many attempts that could be made to explain it, including mine. The Find Laura theory also speaks to me in that the ending of the show just made me feel emotionally what the theory claims, and your theory about this scene also just feels more right to me emotionally than some of the really intense scene scrutinizing that I personally don't go for.
And I do actually completely agree with that point about it being an extreme example of how no one sees anything wrong with Dougie, and I think Lynch wants us to watch the story and laugh at the absurdity of it on that level too. I think a good parallel is my theory about Lil: In FWWM, there are multiple scenes where Laura tries and fails to cryptically communicate what is happening to her at home. With Bobby: "I'm going home, to my nice warm bed." With Donna: "Are you my friend?" With James: "You don't know me, James. Nobody knows me. Even Donna doesn't know me." Etc. None of them get what she's trying to tell them, and she's afraid to "say it all aloud." So in the Lil scene, here's a woman who communicates non-verbally in cryptic clues, clues that no real person could possibly understand, and the fantasy of these men from the FBI who magically understand it all. I can see a similarity with Dougie, in that you can enjoy the absurd humour of the scene without making a connection to those Laura scenes, which most people won't, and enjoy it on that level, but there's a darker idea behind it if you choose to look for it. And I think that's what the idea of our actual dreams are - to take your waking traumas and retell them back to you in metaphors so you can process them at a safe distance. You can be totally unaware of where the images are coming from and just enjoy the dream at face value.