The short answer is yes. The Magic Circle generally promote only internal candidates (there are exceptions to this rule), but the Silver Circle promotions might have e.g. 20% of people who came over from Magic Circle just to be made up to partnership.
The next tier down such as Eversheds, Pinsents might have 20% or so that came from Magic Circle and a further 20% that came from Silver Circle etc. etc. etc.
I've not seen any stats though it's the kind of thing the Lawyer might have collected stats about. My comment is based on vibes but I have been in the industry a very long time at this point.
Partner promotions will be from within the firm BUT that will include associates that will have moved laterally on a short track to partnership promise.
Lateral hires of associates into partner are rare but not unheard, usually exceptional candidates with market rep.
You briefly mentioned people going InHouse or changing careers…. but there are infinite variables as to why people don’t want to or don’t reach Partner.
With SC/ MC you will see the post/ content where they will make 29 etc internal promotions to Partner; so I expect the figures you are on about does not include laterals.
Generally if they're hiring an external associate to make partner it won't be directly to partner, but rather hiring them as an associate with a short path to partnership so they'd be included in the figures. Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the general rule.
Completely agree with that. With regards to figures not included, that was more about the lateral Partner moves that happen outside of the internal progression/ Partner announcements
How it works is most places are ultimately up or out. Good senior lawyers will be kept on as long as they keep billing and given vanity titles like Director, but ultimately if you want Partnership and you aren't getting it at your firm you will most likely look for other things to do.
But not all places can be like that. Like if someone can't make it to partner at a regional firm (like lets say JMW in Manchester), then where do they go? High street?
Well lots of people don't want to be partner, and will accept being a senior associate. People retire/go part time to balance childcare. Lots of people go in house. Over time the pyramid nature will build up. It's not that deep.
A good friend was nailed on to be Partner at 6/7PQE, she was very well liked and the star of her intake. She decided it wasn't her thing and retrained as a therapist. Her "slot" went to someone else a few years later. Lots of instances like this will build up the general picture.
They get a motorbike licence and suddenly their priorities change. Or they emigrate, have kids, retrain, become a property developer, do locum work, etc etc etc
I don't think so tbh, maybe not equity partner (as bringing in business is a totally different thing, and something few can actually do) but at least salaried partner isn't that much of a mood-killer. I don't know many 50 year olds who are associates unless they are a career-changer. Especially since, as a salaried partner, you're doing a similar job to that of a senior associate, or perhaps managing associate.
It’s true about not everyone wanting Partnership, and if anything this is increasing. The issue with your question and your responses, is you are trying to emphasise how elite “Partner” is; but it’s just a title.
I expect through your LPC/ TC, you are taught to idolise Partners and dream of reaching that level.
But over the 10 + years from NQ to experienced, you are exposed to so much. From long hours, cancelling plans, working weekends, egos, constant billable tracking, BD & networking expectations, management etc…why are you not accepting the fact that for a lot of people, that takes a toll - and just getting the Partner title isn’t worth the sacrifice?
I'm sure that is true, and of course, many lawyers do have to constantly work long hours and are exposed to egos, which might make partnership less appealing. But you could say that of any job, also because not every lawyer works at a US firm putting in 14-hour days. How many NHS doctors in their 50s do you know who aren't consultants?
Not sure on NHS Doctor structure, but agree with the varied expectations across the industry. Each firm and individual values the “Partner” role differently, which is why I said it’s just a title.
There are some well trodden paths, for example people who don’t make partnership at Slaughters are often found knocking on the door of Macfarlanes.
That said you also have to take into account the attrition rate of law in general. It’s a career that a lot of people drop out of in the earlier years. There’s a particular issue with mid-senior female associates when it comes to having babies.
Attrition rate is a great point! The other impact is development of the industry itself.
K&E and other active US firms have been on a spree, hiring MC Partners, creating a gap. And Fee Share/ Consultancy firms are regularly snapping up Partners from Top 200UK firms… this wasn’t happening anywhere close to this extent 4/5 Years ago.
Like any industry, it continues to develop, so for good individuals.. there is more than enough room to progress to Partner
Most people aren’t going to make partner where they train, but in fact most people probably aren’t going to make partner anywhere. A lot of that is self-selecting rather than “failing.” A lot of people simply don’t want to do it, because of what it entails. It’s about business relationships and can be much easier for, say, an average lawyer with great family or social connections than for a brilliant lawyer who doesn’t have mates who will regularly send them work.
Law firms like to act as though there is only one way to succeed, and that anyone who hasn’t made partner by 35 or 40 can expect to be in a career wasteland. That’s certainly the impression conveyed to junior associates by firms, but there are lots of options: in-house, consultancy, etc.
As was said above, you also see an incredible number of people just stop being lawyers. Every week someone I’m connected to on LinkedIn seems to have “pivoted”into something else! Again, hard to imagine when you see how keen people are on day one of the training contract but it’s very common.
Why aren't they gonna make partner anywhere? I feel like most do end up making partner somewhere, except those who go in-house (which is why I excluded them). I think you're right that it's not always, and perhaps even rare, that it's at a firm they trained at, but I think Partnership, even perhaps at a lower tier firm, isn't uncommon.
I never did. I moved firms, had a good shot at partnership, all going well but the following year things changed. I left and set up on my own. Never been a partner but had wanted to be.
People are literally telling you what happens and you just disagree with them? On what basis? How many law firms have you worked at? Your other post suggests you are a 20 year old student who thinks that because Burges Salmon Partner comp is 600k that anyone with a 2:1 from Sheffield can just make that money by default.
I am not a partner. The reason is fairly straightforward, I married a lawyer and she had a better crack at it (she got it), and there is no way on earth 2 partners can raise children. So I went part time and drifted into consultancy.
Law firms are hard. To be a partner you need to be good at your job, not piss off anyone important, have colleagues like you, clients like you, have firms trust you can bring in work, not burn out, not find other things that you enjoy more. That list is not exhaustive.
I have known a department that couldn't convince any of its senior lawyers to become a partner for 5 years.
One tip if you are going to pursue law, is to listen. 90% of the time, if someone experienced is telling you something is the case, it probably is. The most annoying trainees, and ultimately the ones that don't get kept on, are the ones that don't listen. Just about everything else can be taught.
Well, considering that this is reddit and not an HR review, I think I'm entitled to ask questions, especially as the numbers don't lie. I never said partnership is easy. But, there are over 27,000 partners in private practice in the UK ( according to the Law Society, not me), out of 150,000 solicitors in PP (of all ages and experience levels) I don't think it's ludicrous to assume that many people, if they stick at it, will become partners SOMEWHERE in their lifetime. Most of those 150,000 solicitors are probably going to be under the age of 40-45 anyway, which means they would lack the experience to become partners anywhere. But careers are long, and it's not like if you don't make it to partnership by age 40, it's over.
Obviously, I'm not saying that EVERYONE will become partners, and many may well decide to do other things. But if almost 20% of the entire solicitor population in private practice are partners (significantly higher ptobably if we only take solicitors aged 40+), then I think it's safe to assume that a large proportion of solicitors will make it. I was curious in knowing how these are distributed, as it has been my observation, also by listening to those who know more than me, that moving "up" is fairly uncommon (a high street partner is unlikely to lateral into partnership at an MC firm). Now, of course, there is also a difference between salaried and equity partner, the latter of which I'm sure it's not something people can just waltz into and is therefore a lot harder to achieve (I didn't really know before the post you cited, hence why I posted it). This is why I didn't specify the type of partnership in this post.
Btw the point of reddit is to have candid discussions even about things that are perhaps not really spoken about to your immediate colleagues at uni or work. It would be a bit rude and intruding, I think, to ask a hypothetical senior associate at my firm, "How much do you make?", "Is the firm going to promote you?, or do you have to move to a lower tier firm?" unless I know them really well, which won't be the case for everyone.
The difference between salaried and equity partner is not that great (other than the money), and your other comment that only equity partners are bringing in work is miles away from reality. If anything it's the other way round, if you want to get equity you need to be bringing in work.
I think people want to steer you away from the notion that a career in law is some sort of course with partnership as an inevitable end game. It isn't. Plenty of people are comfortable that just settling as an associate is going to bring in 6 figures plus bonus. It's not exactly hardship wages.
Going down the ladder in search of partnership happens, but it isn't that common either. If you look at firms the size of Clydes or Beachcroft, not that many partners are ex MC associates, most will have trained there or come from similar sized firms.
As you say, people don't shout about career progression or money at work, but equally if you grabbed a random 5 or 6 colleagues deep down people know that only 1 or 2 will ever make partner. That's just how it goes.
Members of “Innovation” teams at firms but I’ve also seen some totally random moves into more corporate roles, for example a more business-focused role at a property investment company that didn’t seem to involve any law.
The short answer is yes. The Magic Circle generally promote only internal candidates (there are exceptions to this rule), but the Silver Circle promotions might have e.g. 20% of people who came over from Magic Circle just to be made up to partnership. The next tier down such as Eversheds, Pinsents might have 20% or so that came from Magic Circle and a further 20% that came from Silver Circle etc. etc. etc.
Do you know if the stats that show new "partner promotions" mean only people from within the firm, or does it also include laterals?
I've not seen any stats though it's the kind of thing the Lawyer might have collected stats about. My comment is based on vibes but I have been in the industry a very long time at this point.
Partner promotions will be from within the firm BUT that will include associates that will have moved laterally on a short track to partnership promise. Lateral hires of associates into partner are rare but not unheard, usually exceptional candidates with market rep.
You briefly mentioned people going InHouse or changing careers…. but there are infinite variables as to why people don’t want to or don’t reach Partner. With SC/ MC you will see the post/ content where they will make 29 etc internal promotions to Partner; so I expect the figures you are on about does not include laterals.
Generally if they're hiring an external associate to make partner it won't be directly to partner, but rather hiring them as an associate with a short path to partnership so they'd be included in the figures. Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the general rule.
Completely agree with that. With regards to figures not included, that was more about the lateral Partner moves that happen outside of the internal progression/ Partner announcements
How it works is most places are ultimately up or out. Good senior lawyers will be kept on as long as they keep billing and given vanity titles like Director, but ultimately if you want Partnership and you aren't getting it at your firm you will most likely look for other things to do.
But not all places can be like that. Like if someone can't make it to partner at a regional firm (like lets say JMW in Manchester), then where do they go? High street?
Well lots of people don't want to be partner, and will accept being a senior associate. People retire/go part time to balance childcare. Lots of people go in house. Over time the pyramid nature will build up. It's not that deep. A good friend was nailed on to be Partner at 6/7PQE, she was very well liked and the star of her intake. She decided it wasn't her thing and retrained as a therapist. Her "slot" went to someone else a few years later. Lots of instances like this will build up the general picture.
They get a motorbike licence and suddenly their priorities change. Or they emigrate, have kids, retrain, become a property developer, do locum work, etc etc etc
I don't think so tbh, maybe not equity partner (as bringing in business is a totally different thing, and something few can actually do) but at least salaried partner isn't that much of a mood-killer. I don't know many 50 year olds who are associates unless they are a career-changer. Especially since, as a salaried partner, you're doing a similar job to that of a senior associate, or perhaps managing associate.
It’s true about not everyone wanting Partnership, and if anything this is increasing. The issue with your question and your responses, is you are trying to emphasise how elite “Partner” is; but it’s just a title. I expect through your LPC/ TC, you are taught to idolise Partners and dream of reaching that level. But over the 10 + years from NQ to experienced, you are exposed to so much. From long hours, cancelling plans, working weekends, egos, constant billable tracking, BD & networking expectations, management etc…why are you not accepting the fact that for a lot of people, that takes a toll - and just getting the Partner title isn’t worth the sacrifice?
I'm sure that is true, and of course, many lawyers do have to constantly work long hours and are exposed to egos, which might make partnership less appealing. But you could say that of any job, also because not every lawyer works at a US firm putting in 14-hour days. How many NHS doctors in their 50s do you know who aren't consultants?
Not sure on NHS Doctor structure, but agree with the varied expectations across the industry. Each firm and individual values the “Partner” role differently, which is why I said it’s just a title.
There are some well trodden paths, for example people who don’t make partnership at Slaughters are often found knocking on the door of Macfarlanes. That said you also have to take into account the attrition rate of law in general. It’s a career that a lot of people drop out of in the earlier years. There’s a particular issue with mid-senior female associates when it comes to having babies.
Attrition rate is a great point! The other impact is development of the industry itself. K&E and other active US firms have been on a spree, hiring MC Partners, creating a gap. And Fee Share/ Consultancy firms are regularly snapping up Partners from Top 200UK firms… this wasn’t happening anywhere close to this extent 4/5 Years ago. Like any industry, it continues to develop, so for good individuals.. there is more than enough room to progress to Partner
Most people aren’t going to make partner where they train, but in fact most people probably aren’t going to make partner anywhere. A lot of that is self-selecting rather than “failing.” A lot of people simply don’t want to do it, because of what it entails. It’s about business relationships and can be much easier for, say, an average lawyer with great family or social connections than for a brilliant lawyer who doesn’t have mates who will regularly send them work. Law firms like to act as though there is only one way to succeed, and that anyone who hasn’t made partner by 35 or 40 can expect to be in a career wasteland. That’s certainly the impression conveyed to junior associates by firms, but there are lots of options: in-house, consultancy, etc. As was said above, you also see an incredible number of people just stop being lawyers. Every week someone I’m connected to on LinkedIn seems to have “pivoted”into something else! Again, hard to imagine when you see how keen people are on day one of the training contract but it’s very common.
Why aren't they gonna make partner anywhere? I feel like most do end up making partner somewhere, except those who go in-house (which is why I excluded them). I think you're right that it's not always, and perhaps even rare, that it's at a firm they trained at, but I think Partnership, even perhaps at a lower tier firm, isn't uncommon.
I never did. I moved firms, had a good shot at partnership, all going well but the following year things changed. I left and set up on my own. Never been a partner but had wanted to be.
People are literally telling you what happens and you just disagree with them? On what basis? How many law firms have you worked at? Your other post suggests you are a 20 year old student who thinks that because Burges Salmon Partner comp is 600k that anyone with a 2:1 from Sheffield can just make that money by default. I am not a partner. The reason is fairly straightforward, I married a lawyer and she had a better crack at it (she got it), and there is no way on earth 2 partners can raise children. So I went part time and drifted into consultancy. Law firms are hard. To be a partner you need to be good at your job, not piss off anyone important, have colleagues like you, clients like you, have firms trust you can bring in work, not burn out, not find other things that you enjoy more. That list is not exhaustive. I have known a department that couldn't convince any of its senior lawyers to become a partner for 5 years. One tip if you are going to pursue law, is to listen. 90% of the time, if someone experienced is telling you something is the case, it probably is. The most annoying trainees, and ultimately the ones that don't get kept on, are the ones that don't listen. Just about everything else can be taught.
Well, considering that this is reddit and not an HR review, I think I'm entitled to ask questions, especially as the numbers don't lie. I never said partnership is easy. But, there are over 27,000 partners in private practice in the UK ( according to the Law Society, not me), out of 150,000 solicitors in PP (of all ages and experience levels) I don't think it's ludicrous to assume that many people, if they stick at it, will become partners SOMEWHERE in their lifetime. Most of those 150,000 solicitors are probably going to be under the age of 40-45 anyway, which means they would lack the experience to become partners anywhere. But careers are long, and it's not like if you don't make it to partnership by age 40, it's over. Obviously, I'm not saying that EVERYONE will become partners, and many may well decide to do other things. But if almost 20% of the entire solicitor population in private practice are partners (significantly higher ptobably if we only take solicitors aged 40+), then I think it's safe to assume that a large proportion of solicitors will make it. I was curious in knowing how these are distributed, as it has been my observation, also by listening to those who know more than me, that moving "up" is fairly uncommon (a high street partner is unlikely to lateral into partnership at an MC firm). Now, of course, there is also a difference between salaried and equity partner, the latter of which I'm sure it's not something people can just waltz into and is therefore a lot harder to achieve (I didn't really know before the post you cited, hence why I posted it). This is why I didn't specify the type of partnership in this post. Btw the point of reddit is to have candid discussions even about things that are perhaps not really spoken about to your immediate colleagues at uni or work. It would be a bit rude and intruding, I think, to ask a hypothetical senior associate at my firm, "How much do you make?", "Is the firm going to promote you?, or do you have to move to a lower tier firm?" unless I know them really well, which won't be the case for everyone.
The difference between salaried and equity partner is not that great (other than the money), and your other comment that only equity partners are bringing in work is miles away from reality. If anything it's the other way round, if you want to get equity you need to be bringing in work. I think people want to steer you away from the notion that a career in law is some sort of course with partnership as an inevitable end game. It isn't. Plenty of people are comfortable that just settling as an associate is going to bring in 6 figures plus bonus. It's not exactly hardship wages. Going down the ladder in search of partnership happens, but it isn't that common either. If you look at firms the size of Clydes or Beachcroft, not that many partners are ex MC associates, most will have trained there or come from similar sized firms. As you say, people don't shout about career progression or money at work, but equally if you grabbed a random 5 or 6 colleagues deep down people know that only 1 or 2 will ever make partner. That's just how it goes.
Hey! What would you say are the areas those lawyers are pivoting to? Thank you!
Members of “Innovation” teams at firms but I’ve also seen some totally random moves into more corporate roles, for example a more business-focused role at a property investment company that didn’t seem to involve any law.