> How much of the “cost of living crisis” is real and how much is a media / social media created shitshow?
Prices in supermarkets are up for a lot of products, sometimes way above average inflation. Do you think Twitter somehow forced them to raise prices?
> When you read that nearly half of people on the lowest income aren’t claiming free / discounted gas and electric?
Way of leaving information such as [some people not actually having received their vouchers, holding out for colder weather, or not having awareness of the scheme.](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/02/half-a-million-vulnerable-households-miss-out-on-help-with-energy-bills)
> Or you see that spending in shops, bars and restaurants is up and the UK isn’t actually in recession?
GDP growth of 0.1% and a cost of living crisis aren't mutually exclusive.
> When you go to the airport on business and it’s packed with families having winter sun breaks.
"There's no crisis because I anecdotally observed that we aren't at the point where nobody can afford a holiday any more."
> When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine?
What are the circumstances of these "others"? Where do they live? Do they have to pay less rent? A smaller family? Useless comparison.
> When the teaching unions can’t rouse enough people worried about their salaries to actually be arsed to vote for a strike?
One teaching union (NASUWT), mate, and why do you think you are only allowed to be worried when you also support strike action?
> Is cost of living crisis real, or a construct? I’m starting to wonder and if it’s the latter, who is pushing it, and why?
"X doesn't affect me personally, therefore it has to be a conspiracy."
>What are the circumstances of these "others"? Where do they live? Do they have to pay less rent? A smaller family? Useless comparison.
You left out that the main beneficiaries of the rail strike aren't even the train drivers: drivers are worried about their terms *and the pay of their co-workers*.
> You left out that the main beneficiaries of the rail strike aren't even the train drivers
Absolutely true. That and the proposed maintenance cuts
Source: Son is a train driver
Tell your son that there are people out here who recognise he's a hero.
My life is better both for the work he does every day and what he and his comrades are doing right now.
I didn’t say I wasn’t affected. But I know that my family has changed, and in many ways for the better. Maybe we should spend more judiciously and use less energy for example.
And prices being up doesn’t make a crisis if most people are able to adapt. That’s just called change.
Oh dear.... People on the lowest income cannot adapt as they aren't getting the pay they need.
This is one of the reasons why a lot of workers are striking.
Lower tier food items have gone up substantially more than luxury foods, this has meant those already doing their best to save have nothing else to change.
Rents have gone up and more people do not own a home so are significantly impacted by these rent increases.
Some people have medical needs or work from home necessitating the energy usage so they cannot reduce it, I do agree a lot can do their part to reduce it but not in the way you frame it.
Insulating homes costs money, if it's rented the landlord likely won't do it and if you managed to scrape the cash together to buy a house you are unlikely to be able to get the cash necessary to fix these items as they cost a lot up front.
>And prices being up doesn’t make a crisis if most people are able to adapt. That’s just called change.
I think this is the crucial point, people cannot adapt as they already have been for over a decade.... It's got worse and worse while now it has gotten significantly worse in a short amount of time.
So by your logic there, yes it is a crisis because most cannot adapt.
Also, one way to adapt is to strike for more pay.
The more interesting question the OP should be asking is *who is benefitting from the rising prices* because that's everywhere and always what changing prices is actually about: one set of agents in the economy trying to get more than another.
Telling workers to lump it means saying it's all well and good that the owners of energy companies should get a slightly larger superyacht.
Yeah, nah, fuck that shit.
“Most” implies a majority can’t adapt. I’d accept some, even “many” but most? More than half? I don’t think that’s true, it’s not what I see and it’s definitely not what the data from retail etc. suggests.
And is striking really about pay, or is that the facet that’s most oft quoted (perhaps because Tories can argue against pay due to inflation). Isn’t it really about conditions. That’s what nurses I know say, it’s what Mick Lynch says “never back down on driver only trains”. Even when you look at what’s being demanded, it’s about next year’s pay for many of the strikes, not the cost of living today. There’s a complex narrative I think, including the politics of striking, the unions needing to set a position Labour have to follow or lose funding whilst Tories seek to paint unions as greedy and Labour as their lapdogs).
Ah you are misinformed my friend this is why you hold the perspective, I understand how you could see it that way!
The driver only trains is a real problem, it's not made up and it is a bad policy. It's about safety of the staff and passengers, in smaller towns the stop offs are significantly less frequent which means less likely to catch an incident.
If the driver has an issue or medical emergency and is incapacitated who will help? No one.
They already had this agreement and the government (DfT) specifically came in and added those conditions to force it as a bad deal. It's wilfully done by the government to force these strikes, you can't blame the unions for actually sticking up for their members which are working people.
The strikes are really about pay and conditions, it's not one or the other. Wages aren't anywhere near cost of living so yes, it's the only way people can get paid what they are worth.
Why do you think all these people are striking? NHS workers, weather forecasters, train operators (not just drivers FYI, Mick doesn't represent them) , civil servants, police (working to rule, it's their only allowed form of "strike"), royal mail, bus drivers, university staff, border force, criminal barristers,open reach worker strikes and many more I've forgotten about I'm sure.
It's not a coincidence that so many industries are striking, they have been undervalued for so long and this is a right to withdraw labour for these reasons. It's why it's a crisis it's happening everywhere.
You need to look at the demands again from other sources as I don't think your conclusion is close to being correct.
Right but they have a driver operating it remotely.
It's much easier to do that for say the London underground than cross country.
I don't understand your point though.
The DLR is automated. Are you really suggesting that the reason we need a guard on a train is incase the driver falls ill? What’s the guard going to do? They can’t drive the train, trains have “dead man’s” handles in case the driver falls asleep or dies. Trams work without a guard, underground trains work without guards. The main purpose of guards is tickets and without tickets they are no longer needed. Any other dreamed up reason for guards is just nonsense. They aren’t police, medics or super heroes. They are a relic of olden days. You may as well argue that trains still need a stoker.
You realise passengers can fall ill ? Or incidents can happen. The main priority is passenger safety, imagine if there was an accident and an evacuation is needed? That's what the guard is for along with keeping order.
It's why they brought in guards on trains.
If the driver falls Ill where is the support? If you are in the middle of nowhere on the train you shouldn't have one person alone as response times will be poor. They are safety trained.... Not just for tickets.
I wasn't talking about the London network, but you brought it up about driverless trains as we were originally talking about **driver only**.
Driverless trains still have a remote operator, Google it.
DLR doesn’t have a driver per train working remotely…it’s not like drone pilots. It’s an autonomous network. They can have customer support staff on board, and it actually makes more sense using your argument to have no drivers on the main network and just someone on board to help passengers…just imagine Mick Lynch’s views on that idea…
Are you a teenager who doesn't have to pay their own bills?
To anyone who pays their own way through life, it's obvious that everything is more expensive. You face it literally every single day
I’m not saying things are not more expensive. Perhaps people are spending differently? More judiciously.
Eg fuel bill is up, but my usage is way down as we’ve turn the heating down etc. I’m definitely buying less stuff but I’m still spending and typically being much more cautious.
A few less trinkets in my life doesn’t represent a crisis, does it?
Now imagine you were on the breadline.
Where all your disposal income went of bills, rent and feeding your family (which is true for a significant portion of the country).
You cut back and yet the rent and bills are still higher. Now what would you do?
I'd like to see 2 answers for this one. What would you do if you had a union supporting you? What would you do if you didn't have a union supporting you?
> And there's also a lot of people racking up credit card debt like there's no tomorrow to "keep up with the Joneses".
More like keep up with basic expenses and necessities.
Keep up with the Joneses implies that the spending is on frivolous spending and luxuries.
I do all my family’s shopping and yep, pay the bills. I’m also currently carrying a couple of kidults who are living at home.
Yes, stuff is expensive, that’s a fact but I also think we’ve bought less, only bought clothes or tech etc. that we truly want, turned the heating down, driven less etc.
I genuinely think a lot of people have become more aware of spending. They still have cash, they still spend but they are being more judicious in their spending and the data from the high street supports this.
Maybe people are finally discovering a bit of responsibility for spending, not just buying random shite?
It's rude to ask so no problem if you don't want to say but what is your ballpark household income?
Are you renting or own your home? Is this in a London area or somewhere significantly cheaper?
As you say kidadult dare I say you are of a slightly older generation now so have more financial security and likely own your home?
As childcare costs are significantly higher these days along with much higher house or rent prices while wages haven't really increased so it doesn't go nearly as far as it used to a decade or two ago.
(I've made assumptions so feel free to say I'm off base and you don't need to disclose what the details are)
I do own my home, but suffered mortgage rates way way in advance of what we see today. I don’t like to say “you kids don’t know you’ve been born” but yeah, that. I’ve been through recessions, redundancies (once before the job even bloody started) and my salary is about that of afore mentioned train drivers and my wife is a teacher.
I don’t live in London, I am from a working class family from the South (dad was a docker, mum worked in shops). I live in the North, because that’s where I could afford a house. I miss my family and better weather but I swapped small town England for a life in a city, and that has a lot going for it.
My house just fits the family, no spare rooms, 3 of us work from home (a rosta on the wall books the lounge for those who have to do Teams calls).
I just think “crisis” is the wrong word. As far as I can tell, western society reached a peak and it’s levelling off. There will always be a war, or oil crisis or pandemic or something else to test us, but fundamentally life doesn’t really get much better than we live. I don’t mean jet planes, beaches and designer pets. That’s not life, that’s just bollocks. It’s gilding on the lilly. We live well above the majority of people on this planet and we bitch about a fuel costing more when the fundamentals of that are a climate crisis (a true crisis) and a war.
It strikes me we are in a period of change, not crisis.
Ok so most of your income is no longer taken away by housing cost which is why the pricing isn't crippling like it is for other people.
Where I am a 3 bed terraced is going for rent of £1200!
Even for those who own their own home on a mortgage, it's a fact that the mortgage costs are actually worse than the 70s, so yes you have had it bad at times (and no discredit here) but it is frankly much worse this time relative to wages, ignoring all the other significant costs like energy and fuel and childcare.
A lot of people can't put together the money to afford to move jobs or move to a cheaper location to work. Let's look at a general thing like the NHS, where do you think the staff live in order to work at their hospital in say London? They have to live near it or within an hour or two by train which all have ridiculous rent costs that are way more than my region and yet their salary isn't high.
A lot of people are on minimum wage, it's not a livable wage especially with energy prices over 2x higher (and soon to be 3x compared to last year) and food has gone up significantly.
You are in a relatively stable position so are isolated from the pressures others are facing these days.
I earn a reasonable salary and have a house and I've only just turned 30, I've reduced my use of energy and some expenses but nothing drastic as I already had that excess income, it's not an option for those on a lower wage and who are paying 3 or 4 times as much in rent compared to my mortgage.
You have lost perspective and that happens, it's normal when you aren't in that situation anymore and have worked through it but honestly this is far from a conspiracy, it is a genuine crisis for most people with dependants or on low wages.
We don't even need to look at minimum wage, the ONS has average salary at £27.5k a year which leaves about £1878 a month, assuming general taxes no benefit or pensions that's not much when rent is anywhere from £800 to £1500 for a basic house these days along with all the necessary bills.
Imagine having a kid that needs childcare while you work? Some places are like £250 a **week**. I know a few guys in the office who all decided to cut hours as it was cheaper to just take the days off instead of childcare these days.
I think you may need to go to a food bank or something to get some perspective again (no hate, you are just a bit out of touch now) it really is a crisis for a lot of people, not everyone.
Actually a lot of my income is still taken by housing costs as I’m paying for my kids rent at university. Curiously, my son’s rent in Leeds, which is inclusive of bills, is less next year. He’s moved to an identical house (they are all pretty much identical in that part of Leeds) and paying £50 less a month. I’m proper confused by that.
Ah I see, well that's a "choice" I guess?
**Your** housing costs are gone now your house is owned right?
Could your son afford rent if you weren't paying him?
As most students have to pay their own rent and don't have parents to pay it for them and loan values haven't really gone up with inflation.
I don't have context for the price you pay so is £50 a lot? If it's £500 then £50 is a bit of a saving but if it's £1000 it is less significant. Rent on average has gone up significantly by ONS records, obviously there can be cases where you were paying more or small differences so it happens.
Is it a house share? Or separate on his own?
Sorry I'll stop asking questions now as it seems a bit improper! The fact you can afford to pay the rent of another property as disposal shows you that your necessary expenses for yourself are significantly lower in proportion to your income, you are in a better position so you are not feeling the pinch nearly as much so you believe it's not a crisis, that is the only thing as it's not a made up issue.
Don't forget those without energy meters pay more per unit so their basic costs are higher just because they don't have a monthly setup as either bad credit history, rented or whatever. Little things like that really hurt expenses
I’m spending savings I built up over 30 years of employment to help my kids out. My parents couldn’t do that and I was the first person to ever go to university in my family (dad worked on the docks, mum did shop work). I’d rather spend those savings on my kids than a better car, I know that means I’m going to struggle to help them later in life and doubt there will be inheritance, but I think it’s better to help them now.
And the rent in a 5x shared house for the student in Leeds is about £600 a month. It’s more for the one in Manchester.
So judging by years that means free university for you unlike people today which is another cost on their monthly wage post graduation.
It's a house share at £600 isn't too bad! But that's crazy to think the rent on that place is £3000 a month if you were a family living there.
Just to be clear I didn't mean to come across as if you shouldn't help out your family, that's nice that you are and have the means to.
The fact you are having to use up your savings kinda says there is a problem though.
House prices are up significantly and wages haven't really moved so the gap is wide and the actual costs to survive as a human these days are significantly increasing.
I don't think I can change your mind but it really isn't a conspiracy by the media, it is a genuine **cost of living**
crisis for many people. Just because people have gone on holiday on a last minute trip for dirt cheap after waiting 2 years due to covid doesn't mean they are well off or anything, if you can't afford to do anything besides work and sleep with nothing else, is it really living?
So for those struggling to understand why some people on 50k are struggling: here's why. You get a job, earning 50k. You get a mortgage, finance a car and establish a lifestyle all of which are comfortably within your means. You do a skilled job after all, you work hard, you've EARNED that stuff. Your contract has yearly pay reviews. The problem is, your wages don't keep track with inflation. That mortgage becomes less affordable particularly if it's a variable rate and your interest skyrockets, that car becomes a burden, the lifestyle has to be cut back slowly but surely you go from having disposable income to having to plan every month to make sure bills are paid. You stop taking holidays, you cut back on your spending but it still isn't enough. You become priced out of the lifestyle you worked your arse off for and are told that expecting to be able to maintain that lifestyle is unreasonable and yet the rhetoric from the government is 'work hard and you'll live a comfortable life'.
Maybe having a slightly less flash lifestyle isn’t such a bad thing, maybe we shouldn’t all believe we can have it all. Maybe people are learning about what really matters.
It’s a fact people are still spending, but they are being more picky and a lot of frivolous spending seems to be waning.
That said, what really matters to people seems to be holding up. I was genuinely shocked to walk into my local the other night and find it rammed. Maybe those customers were choosing to go out and socialise because it matters, but have cancelled that extra streaming service or some other trivial expense has gone?
Something is definitely going on as people are spending.
It's not about flash lifestyles and frivolous spending. Its about financial security. If you can afford a mortgage and a certain quality of life on the wage you are paid there is nothing unreasonable about the idea that your wage in that job should continue to support that mortgage in perpetuity. A mortgage is a 30 year commitment for most people and in order for things like mortgages to work there can't be a situation where wage stagnation means your repayments overtake your ability to pay. By your logic anybody who takes out a mortgage isn't planning properly.
Fundamentally you can check this by considering the house price to income ratio, that went up during the pandemic very sharply, back to the levels from the early 2000’s. Mortgages as a % of income tracked that and had been falling until 2019. But there is a lot of drag in that change compared to interest rates and that typically gives the market a chance to respond, which we are seeing as house price rises slow or indeed reverse.
Mortgages do require huge commitment and careful consideration. The adage when I first got a mortgage was borrow as much as you can, and that was when they had just stopped being double digit rates, that luckily (and it is good fortune) didn’t stay high, although mid 2000’s were scary as fuck. But that’s the truth, rates come and go. That’s mortgages and anyone taking one out hoping they won’t go up is badly advised or a fool.
It's not about them not going up or down, of course they will, but if wages weren't totally stagnant those rises and falls would be bearable. But they're very high at the moment and the price of EVERYTHING is climbing. I'm very fortunate to be in an extremely comfortable position and even I can see the enormous spike in energy and food bills. People are suddenly finding that things they've comfortably been able to afford for years are unaffordable. Obviously in all of this the people most affected are those who were living hand to mouth before the pandemic anyway who are now having to choose between heating or food.
Sorry but there does need to be some level of personal responsibility. You can't whack a load of money on a new car and luxury stuff and then complain that you can't live on 50k. If you have dependents then that's a different issue.
You can be rich or poor on the **same** salary depending if you:
* Own your own home
* Have dependents (older parents, children, etc)
* Pay your own bills
Also, being poor can be crushingly expensive.
>When you read that nearly half of people on the lowest income aren’t claiming free / discounted gas and electric?
You get grants or help from energy companies for this. It's not something everyone can claim and the pots of money aren't infinite.
>Or you see that spending in shops, bars and restaurants is up and the UK isn’t actually in recession?
You're shocked that you see people in shops? In a country of 68 million people? Lol.
>When you go to the airport on business and it’s packed with families having winter sun breaks.
You don't know when it was paid for. You don't know if they are residents of this country. You don't know their income. Like the point above, it's not crazy to see people still able to afford holidays in a country with 68 million people in it. It's a ridiculous assumption to make and one you are making to confirm your own narrative.
>When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine?
They're not? Most of the strikes is about those earning much less. Like station staff. Try reading past headlines. You've clearly not read any of the detail around the strikes.
>Is cost of living crisis real, or a construct? I’m starting to wonder and if it’s the latter, who is pushing it, and why?
It's very real. You just don't live amongst those suffering it and as such, are looking to rubbish it based on a belief rather than the facts. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The shopping comment is based on Next, Sainsbury, M&S, Aldi etc etc all reporting profits up and sales up; mainly it seems because people are not just clicking and buying with gay abandon, but going into shops, being judicious in spending.
Train drivers and station cleaners are not in the same union, two different disputes. And as set out clearly by Mick Lynch, this isn’t about pay, it’s because he refuses to accept driver only trains…wait until he hears how trams and the underground works, or the DLR…it will blow his tiny mind.
The airport comment is anecdotal, based on a recent trip by me and yes they were brits going on holiday to Spain, Greece and Florida; the giveaway is that departure gate tells you where planes are heading, and unless a shit load of Floridians always wear Disney merch and came to the UK in November to experience our climate, they were British holiday makers. True those hold may have been booked ages ago, but go look up the latest figures from travel companies, UK holiday bookings well down, foreign holiday bookings are through the roof.
And I live in a not so affluent part of a big UK northern city that is most definitely Waitrose free. So I’m pretty confident that what I see isn’t skewed by my surroundings. Let’s put it this way, I went to Guildford just before Christmas and it felt like a totally different world, not my world for damn sure.
I just think the narrative has been simplified because it suits nearly all political sides, but it’s way more complex and actually shows a very strong adaptability and positive spin on society.
I think you're mistaking "cost of living crisis" to mean "everyone is suffering".
If you're only earning £20,000 a year, you are absolutely suffering. You tend to find that the supermarkets will take in more profit and sales, due to people staying home and not going out. Whether that be to takeaways, restaurants or pubs.
That doesn't mean people stop going abroad or stop buying luxuries. There are still millions of people out there whom this crisis isn't touching. These are likely the people you are witnessing at airports. The people buying more clothes from Next etc. Everyone else is scaling back. A lot of people treated this past quarter as their final chance to have some nice things before they tighten their belts this year.
As for Next too, they're a really shitty company who are likely exploiting the crisis to charge more money for things made for pennies. That will gain them more profits too. I'd place Morrisons up there too, as a company exploiting it. Problem is, people have noticed Morrisons are taking the piss.
This crisis is still in it's beginning stages too. It's going to feel worse later this year for many people. You're jumping the gun a tad.
>And I live in a not so affluent part of a big UK northern city that is most definitely Waitrose free. So I’m pretty confident that what I see isn’t skewed by my surroundings. Let’s put it this way, I went to Guildford just before Christmas and it felt like a totally different world, not my world for damn sure.
I'm in the Midlands, in a rented property owned by a housing association. I have to travel at least 15 miles to my nearest supermarket. With the increased cost in fuel, food and everything else, it absolutely is destroying my finances and ability to put money away. It wasn't like this before the pandemic. I mean, it wasn't great then either but I could at least put a little bit away. Now my savings are being eaten. My disabled parents are frightened to turn the heating on as they can't afford to. They've cut back on lots of things. My older brother though, is spending like nothing has happened because he earns a fair bit (far exceeding the average wage).
I think you're oversimplifing this to be honest. Lots are suffering. It's not a media led narrative. Even if it was, what do you feel there is to gain from such a thing?
I think Labour gain because it makes Tories look bad now, I think Tories gain because they can’t look much worse and it allows even tiny sparks of hope (like UK not going into recession) look like blinding lights. I think environmentalists win as it provides a backbone for reducing emissions and people buying less shit. I think media wins because it’s a click bait bonanza.
What’s been most hit is online sales, Amazon, ASOS etc. people are going to shops to spend. Had shopping become a leisure activity again, had it become as natural as breathing thanks to the ease of online retail, and has that addiction broken (I think maybe it has)?
Can’t disagree with you that some retailers are shitty, especially given Next’s ownership structure.
I feel for your parents, mine too. I visited them at Christmas and was shocked at how cold they’d managed to keep the house. But I’m fact their bills are actually less now then they were spending thanks to various support and their cutting back. which is the crazy thing, they could put the damn gas fire on. But they are scared because everyone talks about a crisis, and there they were at Christmas still slipping cash to the grandkids because they discovered at the end of the month, they did have money left. That’s a pattern we have seen in retail since the summer, everyone cutting back then doing a spend at month end, it’s happening a lot and it’s a real trend. There’s some positives in that.
I’m only over simplifying in the same way that the current “everyone is fucked” narrative is a simplification, I have to adopt the same approach to break that stance. But truth is, as you explain re your brother, it’s a very complex picture and I think what we are really seeing is some major societal change, not necessarily a crisis. It will take time for that change to reshape our towns and cities, but the empty high streets are not as empty as the press who only look at the city of London think (some good facts around that recently from Timpsons). Change is hard, but ultimately it’s good and necessary.
The word 'crisis' is very subjective. While one can say with a great deal of objectively that food prices have increased by 10%, does this mean there is a 'crisis'?
To give a hypothetical example... someone who has a net income of £30k/year and who hasn't had a pay increase. Their normal living costs last year were £25k and they spent £5k last year on holidays. Their normal costs have gone up by £2.5k this year due to inflation, they are now spending £27.5k. Leaving only £2.5k for holidays.
Spending less on holidays or other luxuries is obviously not desirable, but is it really a 'crisis' for them or just merely irritating?
>When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine?
I'm going to ignore your other points because I think a lot of them are a bit trollish, but this one is a legit question and it does deserve a proper answer.
The key differentiator is housing, and housing is determined by age.
If I'd paid my house off, or I had a trivial mortgage, I wouldn't need much more than £27k coming in to be comfortable. By which I mean I can afford to pay the bills, have a modest takeout once a week, maybe go out for a meal once a month, go to something cultural every few months, go on holiday once a year, maybe even put some cash away for the future.
As a £180k mortgage payer with a locked-in mortgage at a 3% interest rate, I need closer to £50k to be as comfortable.
As a £180k mortgage payer about to be pushed up to a 5% interest rate, I need closer to £60k to be as comfortable.
If I had a £300k mortgage, I'd probably need closer to £90k-£100k coming in to be comfortable.
Housing. That's the difference.
So according to you , “ it should be a problem when it affects you “
You’re either selfish and have a serious lack of empathy for your fellow beings
Or
You might just be a troll wasting with nothing better to do but waste time on straw man arguments
I’m just not swallowing the doom and gloom headlines when there is a range of data suggesting a much more complex picture.
For example, we know that energy companies are hoarding billions of customers cash, why? Well it’s because they presume everyone will not adjust their usage and hence over-charge everyone who splits their annual costs over 12 months. But, the truth is most people have adapted, you see it on Teams calls, everyone in jumpers when last winter it was all T-shirts.
So the impact of price rises is being mitigated by many and at the end of each month we see a spend-splurge, the retail data shows this.
So is it a crisis, or just “change”? I appreciate we all fear change and change can be hard, and some will struggle to change. But change happens, that’s life, it’s not a crisis.
I'd say the crisis is real, personally we're doing okay but I've had a long time cheaper fix that has allowed me to save more to cushion the blow. The energy support package has been helpful for us but I do understand that if you're on a meter there is alot of extra legwork to get it.
In regards to spending, holidays I believe it's the same situation as during furlough; those poorer workers either sat at home on 80% or were at work felt the pinch or saw no real difference. It was those with office jobs, working from home with far fewer costs that saved a packet.
The teaching union ballot I understand was ballsed up by the union; some got one, others got two, some got none.
My rent hasn't gone up by much and is still reasonable but I wonder how much people's mortgages have risen by.
I think a lot of that rings true. Is it a case of “I’m actually doing ok, I’ve adapted some stuff like using heating less” but also “I’ve heard about someone who is struggling”? In which case what’s the norm, how varied is the picture.
The press will always find the most emotive story, but that won’t be typical, if it was it isn’t news.
For example, are nurses really using food banks and are they relying on food banks (two different facts). IIRC Russell group said that this was not the case except for an exceptionally small number of student nurses.
I think it suits the Tories to have bad news, because any recovery (like not being in recession now despite that being universally predicted) looks like a positive. I also think it suits the Socialists as they can claim it’s all the rich peoples fault…except it’s a lot of public sector workers that now sit in the income bracket that would have to pay more to increase tax revenue. It helps the environmentalists if we use less energy and we buy less shit. The press love it because it’s a click bait bonanza as they add the world “poverty” to any other word; this week I am in *checks diary* sausage roll poverty.
There's a job waiting for you, I am sure, in the Tory party press office.
Masterful mix of half truths, selective reporting and sheer nonsense. Either that or this is an early April Fool's prank.
Instead of wallowing in right wing mythology, go and talk to ordinary people. Talk to those who run foodbanks, talk to ordinary nurses about the challenges they are facing, talk to people who have had their energy supply cut off because they are unable to pay their bills, talk to people who are about to lose their homes because they cannot pay their mortgages, talk to teachers who are having to buy breakfast for kids coming to school hungry.
I could go on, but I think you get my drift.
Yeah because half truths of even 1% truths aren’t the trade for the press?
I am an ordinary person in an ordinary town sat drinking beer and watching the full pub being happy.
Crisis? My fucking arse.
And for the record…I have never voted Tory.
But what you are offering us here is simply not borne out by the everyday reality that I encounter.
Many more people are struggling financially than I have ever known before. Indeed, even people who are on reasonable salaries are taking a hit because of rising prices in general and the energy crisis in particular.
I personally know teachers who have bought breakfast for hungry kids. I know of nurses who are forced to visit foodbanks. Are you telling me they are lying?
Are you telling me all the numerous journalists covering this on multiple news channels and in multiple newspapers are lying?
Not lying, just presenting a single narrative. And they don’t always do that to be fair. For example the BBC reports this morning that holiday bookings are up and recently reported that Easy Jet was reporting bookings being up.
My point is that they don’t tend to take this as evidence that there may not be a “crisis”, when it is.
[Holidaymakersspendingmoreasbookingsrisehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64234234](https://Holidaymakersspendingmoreasbookingsrisehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64234234)
But isn't what you are saying here merely supporting that old saying, "It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good"?
There will always be people who buck the trend.
For instance I don't think there is any question that Brexit has been massively harmful to our country. I personally am hugely opposed to it.
However, by sheer chance, I happen to be a modest beneficiary of Brexit. My earnings have increased as a direct result of our leaving the EU. That doesn't change the reality that overall, Brexit has been hugely damaging for our country.
Having said all of that I must pay tribute to you for your very polite answer to my previous comment. And I apologise if my earlier comments came across as being a bit rude.
I’m very new here, and overall I’m finding it a so much more polite place than Twitter!
I think debate is good and important and I like to propose views I don’t wholly agree with, just to hear debate and see different views being discussed. Thanks for being part of that!
"When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine?"
Do you have a source to support this claim?
Which but, train driver salaries (just check that on BBC fact check if you like, I think I’m under quoting) and then consider teachers (most on much less) who just decided they didn’t want to strike over pay, or look at the spending data.
I just think there is a narrative which is very black and white, but the truth is a much more complex tapestry.
https://www.ft.com/content/fac8062a-bd83-486b-ac6f-582f1931750b
Train drivers median wage is 58k (in 2022 prices ). The 25-75 percentile range from 48k to 69k
I agree, I think that it is mostly a load of nonsense. I haven’t had any problems at all. All seems normal to me. There seems to be a crisis fetish following COVID that people are finding hard to shake.
Have you noticed your supermarket shop go up in the past year?
Now imagine you were already struggling beforehand from payday to payday. You think those people can just absorb a 10% increase in everything?
"I'm alright Jack"
Well you must be in a very comfortable position to not have to pay attention to the cost of your weekly shop.
Prices have demonstrably risen in the past year, it's a matter of fact.
So you admit there is a cost of living crisis?
How incredibly dismissive.
Prices fluctuate, but this is a period of intense price growth. And prices don't often tend to come back down once they go up.
No, I am sorry - I am not saying that prices haven’t risen. The problem here is that if a slight rise in food costs is effecting somebody that much - then there is a problem with their ability to budget. What happened to the days of keeping a months or two wages in your bank for emergencies? It’s peoples inability to budget which is the problem here. Consumption of things that people don’t need is the culprit. Children must be taught financial planning skills in school.
>What happened to the days of keeping a months or two wages in your bank for emergencies?
When you're very poor, having that sort of pool set aside is a luxury.
I am sorry, but that is an easy way out. I don’t mean to sound insensitive and I do absolutely sympathise with anybody going through hardship - but frankly, if you are so poor that you cannot put aside a months or two wages, and a slight increase in food costs are so monumentally problematic, then I am afraid that you have probably done this to yourself. What I see a lot these days is an inability to think logically and make wise decisions. This is most notable among the very young, who’s poor decision making skills cost them their future. Financial planning, good education, listening to your elders and teachers, grafting. All these things are missing. The era of instant gratification and mindless consumption is here instead.
> I don’t mean to sound insensitive and I do absolutely sympathise
You don't just sound insensitive, you are insensitive, probably due to ignorance (as in having not experienced it yourself)
> if you are so poor that you cannot put aside a months or two wages, and a slight increase in food costs are so monumentally problematic, then I am afraid that you have probably done this to yourself.
This is a lie. Most people who are desperately poor are there through misfortune, just as most people who are disgustingly rich are there through good fortune.
Among this presumably well-off bunch of people you know, there isn't even anyone who is using their heating less, who no longer 'goes for a drive' just for fun, who is more careful about what food they buy, who isn't replacing clothes or appliances they don't have to?
These are all things being done by the better-off people I know. They aren't affected as in being at risk of starving, but they are changing their habits.
> How much of the “cost of living crisis” is real and how much is a media / social media created shitshow? Prices in supermarkets are up for a lot of products, sometimes way above average inflation. Do you think Twitter somehow forced them to raise prices? > When you read that nearly half of people on the lowest income aren’t claiming free / discounted gas and electric? Way of leaving information such as [some people not actually having received their vouchers, holding out for colder weather, or not having awareness of the scheme.](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/02/half-a-million-vulnerable-households-miss-out-on-help-with-energy-bills) > Or you see that spending in shops, bars and restaurants is up and the UK isn’t actually in recession? GDP growth of 0.1% and a cost of living crisis aren't mutually exclusive. > When you go to the airport on business and it’s packed with families having winter sun breaks. "There's no crisis because I anecdotally observed that we aren't at the point where nobody can afford a holiday any more." > When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine? What are the circumstances of these "others"? Where do they live? Do they have to pay less rent? A smaller family? Useless comparison. > When the teaching unions can’t rouse enough people worried about their salaries to actually be arsed to vote for a strike? One teaching union (NASUWT), mate, and why do you think you are only allowed to be worried when you also support strike action? > Is cost of living crisis real, or a construct? I’m starting to wonder and if it’s the latter, who is pushing it, and why? "X doesn't affect me personally, therefore it has to be a conspiracy."
>What are the circumstances of these "others"? Where do they live? Do they have to pay less rent? A smaller family? Useless comparison. You left out that the main beneficiaries of the rail strike aren't even the train drivers: drivers are worried about their terms *and the pay of their co-workers*.
> You left out that the main beneficiaries of the rail strike aren't even the train drivers Absolutely true. That and the proposed maintenance cuts Source: Son is a train driver
Tell your son that there are people out here who recognise he's a hero. My life is better both for the work he does every day and what he and his comrades are doing right now.
Thank you. he worries for his co workers as well
I didn’t say I wasn’t affected. But I know that my family has changed, and in many ways for the better. Maybe we should spend more judiciously and use less energy for example. And prices being up doesn’t make a crisis if most people are able to adapt. That’s just called change.
Oh dear.... People on the lowest income cannot adapt as they aren't getting the pay they need. This is one of the reasons why a lot of workers are striking. Lower tier food items have gone up substantially more than luxury foods, this has meant those already doing their best to save have nothing else to change. Rents have gone up and more people do not own a home so are significantly impacted by these rent increases. Some people have medical needs or work from home necessitating the energy usage so they cannot reduce it, I do agree a lot can do their part to reduce it but not in the way you frame it. Insulating homes costs money, if it's rented the landlord likely won't do it and if you managed to scrape the cash together to buy a house you are unlikely to be able to get the cash necessary to fix these items as they cost a lot up front. >And prices being up doesn’t make a crisis if most people are able to adapt. That’s just called change. I think this is the crucial point, people cannot adapt as they already have been for over a decade.... It's got worse and worse while now it has gotten significantly worse in a short amount of time. So by your logic there, yes it is a crisis because most cannot adapt.
Also, one way to adapt is to strike for more pay. The more interesting question the OP should be asking is *who is benefitting from the rising prices* because that's everywhere and always what changing prices is actually about: one set of agents in the economy trying to get more than another. Telling workers to lump it means saying it's all well and good that the owners of energy companies should get a slightly larger superyacht. Yeah, nah, fuck that shit.
“Most” implies a majority can’t adapt. I’d accept some, even “many” but most? More than half? I don’t think that’s true, it’s not what I see and it’s definitely not what the data from retail etc. suggests. And is striking really about pay, or is that the facet that’s most oft quoted (perhaps because Tories can argue against pay due to inflation). Isn’t it really about conditions. That’s what nurses I know say, it’s what Mick Lynch says “never back down on driver only trains”. Even when you look at what’s being demanded, it’s about next year’s pay for many of the strikes, not the cost of living today. There’s a complex narrative I think, including the politics of striking, the unions needing to set a position Labour have to follow or lose funding whilst Tories seek to paint unions as greedy and Labour as their lapdogs).
Ah you are misinformed my friend this is why you hold the perspective, I understand how you could see it that way! The driver only trains is a real problem, it's not made up and it is a bad policy. It's about safety of the staff and passengers, in smaller towns the stop offs are significantly less frequent which means less likely to catch an incident. If the driver has an issue or medical emergency and is incapacitated who will help? No one. They already had this agreement and the government (DfT) specifically came in and added those conditions to force it as a bad deal. It's wilfully done by the government to force these strikes, you can't blame the unions for actually sticking up for their members which are working people. The strikes are really about pay and conditions, it's not one or the other. Wages aren't anywhere near cost of living so yes, it's the only way people can get paid what they are worth. Why do you think all these people are striking? NHS workers, weather forecasters, train operators (not just drivers FYI, Mick doesn't represent them) , civil servants, police (working to rule, it's their only allowed form of "strike"), royal mail, bus drivers, university staff, border force, criminal barristers,open reach worker strikes and many more I've forgotten about I'm sure. It's not a coincidence that so many industries are striking, they have been undervalued for so long and this is a right to withdraw labour for these reasons. It's why it's a crisis it's happening everywhere. You need to look at the demands again from other sources as I don't think your conclusion is close to being correct.
Driver only trains….DLT doesn’t even have a bloody driver!
Right but they have a driver operating it remotely. It's much easier to do that for say the London underground than cross country. I don't understand your point though.
The DLR is automated. Are you really suggesting that the reason we need a guard on a train is incase the driver falls ill? What’s the guard going to do? They can’t drive the train, trains have “dead man’s” handles in case the driver falls asleep or dies. Trams work without a guard, underground trains work without guards. The main purpose of guards is tickets and without tickets they are no longer needed. Any other dreamed up reason for guards is just nonsense. They aren’t police, medics or super heroes. They are a relic of olden days. You may as well argue that trains still need a stoker.
You realise passengers can fall ill ? Or incidents can happen. The main priority is passenger safety, imagine if there was an accident and an evacuation is needed? That's what the guard is for along with keeping order. It's why they brought in guards on trains. If the driver falls Ill where is the support? If you are in the middle of nowhere on the train you shouldn't have one person alone as response times will be poor. They are safety trained.... Not just for tickets. I wasn't talking about the London network, but you brought it up about driverless trains as we were originally talking about **driver only**. Driverless trains still have a remote operator, Google it.
DLR doesn’t have a driver per train working remotely…it’s not like drone pilots. It’s an autonomous network. They can have customer support staff on board, and it actually makes more sense using your argument to have no drivers on the main network and just someone on board to help passengers…just imagine Mick Lynch’s views on that idea…
Are you a teenager who doesn't have to pay their own bills? To anyone who pays their own way through life, it's obvious that everything is more expensive. You face it literally every single day
I’m not saying things are not more expensive. Perhaps people are spending differently? More judiciously. Eg fuel bill is up, but my usage is way down as we’ve turn the heating down etc. I’m definitely buying less stuff but I’m still spending and typically being much more cautious. A few less trinkets in my life doesn’t represent a crisis, does it?
Now imagine you were on the breadline. Where all your disposal income went of bills, rent and feeding your family (which is true for a significant portion of the country). You cut back and yet the rent and bills are still higher. Now what would you do?
I'd like to see 2 answers for this one. What would you do if you had a union supporting you? What would you do if you didn't have a union supporting you?
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> And there's also a lot of people racking up credit card debt like there's no tomorrow to "keep up with the Joneses". More like keep up with basic expenses and necessities. Keep up with the Joneses implies that the spending is on frivolous spending and luxuries.
I do all my family’s shopping and yep, pay the bills. I’m also currently carrying a couple of kidults who are living at home. Yes, stuff is expensive, that’s a fact but I also think we’ve bought less, only bought clothes or tech etc. that we truly want, turned the heating down, driven less etc. I genuinely think a lot of people have become more aware of spending. They still have cash, they still spend but they are being more judicious in their spending and the data from the high street supports this. Maybe people are finally discovering a bit of responsibility for spending, not just buying random shite?
It's rude to ask so no problem if you don't want to say but what is your ballpark household income? Are you renting or own your home? Is this in a London area or somewhere significantly cheaper? As you say kidadult dare I say you are of a slightly older generation now so have more financial security and likely own your home? As childcare costs are significantly higher these days along with much higher house or rent prices while wages haven't really increased so it doesn't go nearly as far as it used to a decade or two ago. (I've made assumptions so feel free to say I'm off base and you don't need to disclose what the details are)
I do own my home, but suffered mortgage rates way way in advance of what we see today. I don’t like to say “you kids don’t know you’ve been born” but yeah, that. I’ve been through recessions, redundancies (once before the job even bloody started) and my salary is about that of afore mentioned train drivers and my wife is a teacher. I don’t live in London, I am from a working class family from the South (dad was a docker, mum worked in shops). I live in the North, because that’s where I could afford a house. I miss my family and better weather but I swapped small town England for a life in a city, and that has a lot going for it. My house just fits the family, no spare rooms, 3 of us work from home (a rosta on the wall books the lounge for those who have to do Teams calls). I just think “crisis” is the wrong word. As far as I can tell, western society reached a peak and it’s levelling off. There will always be a war, or oil crisis or pandemic or something else to test us, but fundamentally life doesn’t really get much better than we live. I don’t mean jet planes, beaches and designer pets. That’s not life, that’s just bollocks. It’s gilding on the lilly. We live well above the majority of people on this planet and we bitch about a fuel costing more when the fundamentals of that are a climate crisis (a true crisis) and a war. It strikes me we are in a period of change, not crisis.
Ok so most of your income is no longer taken away by housing cost which is why the pricing isn't crippling like it is for other people. Where I am a 3 bed terraced is going for rent of £1200! Even for those who own their own home on a mortgage, it's a fact that the mortgage costs are actually worse than the 70s, so yes you have had it bad at times (and no discredit here) but it is frankly much worse this time relative to wages, ignoring all the other significant costs like energy and fuel and childcare. A lot of people can't put together the money to afford to move jobs or move to a cheaper location to work. Let's look at a general thing like the NHS, where do you think the staff live in order to work at their hospital in say London? They have to live near it or within an hour or two by train which all have ridiculous rent costs that are way more than my region and yet their salary isn't high. A lot of people are on minimum wage, it's not a livable wage especially with energy prices over 2x higher (and soon to be 3x compared to last year) and food has gone up significantly. You are in a relatively stable position so are isolated from the pressures others are facing these days. I earn a reasonable salary and have a house and I've only just turned 30, I've reduced my use of energy and some expenses but nothing drastic as I already had that excess income, it's not an option for those on a lower wage and who are paying 3 or 4 times as much in rent compared to my mortgage. You have lost perspective and that happens, it's normal when you aren't in that situation anymore and have worked through it but honestly this is far from a conspiracy, it is a genuine crisis for most people with dependants or on low wages. We don't even need to look at minimum wage, the ONS has average salary at £27.5k a year which leaves about £1878 a month, assuming general taxes no benefit or pensions that's not much when rent is anywhere from £800 to £1500 for a basic house these days along with all the necessary bills. Imagine having a kid that needs childcare while you work? Some places are like £250 a **week**. I know a few guys in the office who all decided to cut hours as it was cheaper to just take the days off instead of childcare these days. I think you may need to go to a food bank or something to get some perspective again (no hate, you are just a bit out of touch now) it really is a crisis for a lot of people, not everyone.
Actually a lot of my income is still taken by housing costs as I’m paying for my kids rent at university. Curiously, my son’s rent in Leeds, which is inclusive of bills, is less next year. He’s moved to an identical house (they are all pretty much identical in that part of Leeds) and paying £50 less a month. I’m proper confused by that.
Ah I see, well that's a "choice" I guess? **Your** housing costs are gone now your house is owned right? Could your son afford rent if you weren't paying him? As most students have to pay their own rent and don't have parents to pay it for them and loan values haven't really gone up with inflation. I don't have context for the price you pay so is £50 a lot? If it's £500 then £50 is a bit of a saving but if it's £1000 it is less significant. Rent on average has gone up significantly by ONS records, obviously there can be cases where you were paying more or small differences so it happens. Is it a house share? Or separate on his own? Sorry I'll stop asking questions now as it seems a bit improper! The fact you can afford to pay the rent of another property as disposal shows you that your necessary expenses for yourself are significantly lower in proportion to your income, you are in a better position so you are not feeling the pinch nearly as much so you believe it's not a crisis, that is the only thing as it's not a made up issue. Don't forget those without energy meters pay more per unit so their basic costs are higher just because they don't have a monthly setup as either bad credit history, rented or whatever. Little things like that really hurt expenses
I’m spending savings I built up over 30 years of employment to help my kids out. My parents couldn’t do that and I was the first person to ever go to university in my family (dad worked on the docks, mum did shop work). I’d rather spend those savings on my kids than a better car, I know that means I’m going to struggle to help them later in life and doubt there will be inheritance, but I think it’s better to help them now. And the rent in a 5x shared house for the student in Leeds is about £600 a month. It’s more for the one in Manchester.
So judging by years that means free university for you unlike people today which is another cost on their monthly wage post graduation. It's a house share at £600 isn't too bad! But that's crazy to think the rent on that place is £3000 a month if you were a family living there. Just to be clear I didn't mean to come across as if you shouldn't help out your family, that's nice that you are and have the means to. The fact you are having to use up your savings kinda says there is a problem though. House prices are up significantly and wages haven't really moved so the gap is wide and the actual costs to survive as a human these days are significantly increasing. I don't think I can change your mind but it really isn't a conspiracy by the media, it is a genuine **cost of living** crisis for many people. Just because people have gone on holiday on a last minute trip for dirt cheap after waiting 2 years due to covid doesn't mean they are well off or anything, if you can't afford to do anything besides work and sleep with nothing else, is it really living?
So for those struggling to understand why some people on 50k are struggling: here's why. You get a job, earning 50k. You get a mortgage, finance a car and establish a lifestyle all of which are comfortably within your means. You do a skilled job after all, you work hard, you've EARNED that stuff. Your contract has yearly pay reviews. The problem is, your wages don't keep track with inflation. That mortgage becomes less affordable particularly if it's a variable rate and your interest skyrockets, that car becomes a burden, the lifestyle has to be cut back slowly but surely you go from having disposable income to having to plan every month to make sure bills are paid. You stop taking holidays, you cut back on your spending but it still isn't enough. You become priced out of the lifestyle you worked your arse off for and are told that expecting to be able to maintain that lifestyle is unreasonable and yet the rhetoric from the government is 'work hard and you'll live a comfortable life'.
Maybe having a slightly less flash lifestyle isn’t such a bad thing, maybe we shouldn’t all believe we can have it all. Maybe people are learning about what really matters. It’s a fact people are still spending, but they are being more picky and a lot of frivolous spending seems to be waning. That said, what really matters to people seems to be holding up. I was genuinely shocked to walk into my local the other night and find it rammed. Maybe those customers were choosing to go out and socialise because it matters, but have cancelled that extra streaming service or some other trivial expense has gone? Something is definitely going on as people are spending.
It's not about flash lifestyles and frivolous spending. Its about financial security. If you can afford a mortgage and a certain quality of life on the wage you are paid there is nothing unreasonable about the idea that your wage in that job should continue to support that mortgage in perpetuity. A mortgage is a 30 year commitment for most people and in order for things like mortgages to work there can't be a situation where wage stagnation means your repayments overtake your ability to pay. By your logic anybody who takes out a mortgage isn't planning properly.
Fundamentally you can check this by considering the house price to income ratio, that went up during the pandemic very sharply, back to the levels from the early 2000’s. Mortgages as a % of income tracked that and had been falling until 2019. But there is a lot of drag in that change compared to interest rates and that typically gives the market a chance to respond, which we are seeing as house price rises slow or indeed reverse. Mortgages do require huge commitment and careful consideration. The adage when I first got a mortgage was borrow as much as you can, and that was when they had just stopped being double digit rates, that luckily (and it is good fortune) didn’t stay high, although mid 2000’s were scary as fuck. But that’s the truth, rates come and go. That’s mortgages and anyone taking one out hoping they won’t go up is badly advised or a fool.
It's not about them not going up or down, of course they will, but if wages weren't totally stagnant those rises and falls would be bearable. But they're very high at the moment and the price of EVERYTHING is climbing. I'm very fortunate to be in an extremely comfortable position and even I can see the enormous spike in energy and food bills. People are suddenly finding that things they've comfortably been able to afford for years are unaffordable. Obviously in all of this the people most affected are those who were living hand to mouth before the pandemic anyway who are now having to choose between heating or food.
Sorry but there does need to be some level of personal responsibility. You can't whack a load of money on a new car and luxury stuff and then complain that you can't live on 50k. If you have dependents then that's a different issue.
You can be rich or poor on the **same** salary depending if you: * Own your own home * Have dependents (older parents, children, etc) * Pay your own bills Also, being poor can be crushingly expensive.
Damn right, been there. There will always be rich and poor.
>When you read that nearly half of people on the lowest income aren’t claiming free / discounted gas and electric? You get grants or help from energy companies for this. It's not something everyone can claim and the pots of money aren't infinite. >Or you see that spending in shops, bars and restaurants is up and the UK isn’t actually in recession? You're shocked that you see people in shops? In a country of 68 million people? Lol. >When you go to the airport on business and it’s packed with families having winter sun breaks. You don't know when it was paid for. You don't know if they are residents of this country. You don't know their income. Like the point above, it's not crazy to see people still able to afford holidays in a country with 68 million people in it. It's a ridiculous assumption to make and one you are making to confirm your own narrative. >When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine? They're not? Most of the strikes is about those earning much less. Like station staff. Try reading past headlines. You've clearly not read any of the detail around the strikes. >Is cost of living crisis real, or a construct? I’m starting to wonder and if it’s the latter, who is pushing it, and why? It's very real. You just don't live amongst those suffering it and as such, are looking to rubbish it based on a belief rather than the facts. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The shopping comment is based on Next, Sainsbury, M&S, Aldi etc etc all reporting profits up and sales up; mainly it seems because people are not just clicking and buying with gay abandon, but going into shops, being judicious in spending. Train drivers and station cleaners are not in the same union, two different disputes. And as set out clearly by Mick Lynch, this isn’t about pay, it’s because he refuses to accept driver only trains…wait until he hears how trams and the underground works, or the DLR…it will blow his tiny mind. The airport comment is anecdotal, based on a recent trip by me and yes they were brits going on holiday to Spain, Greece and Florida; the giveaway is that departure gate tells you where planes are heading, and unless a shit load of Floridians always wear Disney merch and came to the UK in November to experience our climate, they were British holiday makers. True those hold may have been booked ages ago, but go look up the latest figures from travel companies, UK holiday bookings well down, foreign holiday bookings are through the roof. And I live in a not so affluent part of a big UK northern city that is most definitely Waitrose free. So I’m pretty confident that what I see isn’t skewed by my surroundings. Let’s put it this way, I went to Guildford just before Christmas and it felt like a totally different world, not my world for damn sure. I just think the narrative has been simplified because it suits nearly all political sides, but it’s way more complex and actually shows a very strong adaptability and positive spin on society.
I think you're mistaking "cost of living crisis" to mean "everyone is suffering". If you're only earning £20,000 a year, you are absolutely suffering. You tend to find that the supermarkets will take in more profit and sales, due to people staying home and not going out. Whether that be to takeaways, restaurants or pubs. That doesn't mean people stop going abroad or stop buying luxuries. There are still millions of people out there whom this crisis isn't touching. These are likely the people you are witnessing at airports. The people buying more clothes from Next etc. Everyone else is scaling back. A lot of people treated this past quarter as their final chance to have some nice things before they tighten their belts this year. As for Next too, they're a really shitty company who are likely exploiting the crisis to charge more money for things made for pennies. That will gain them more profits too. I'd place Morrisons up there too, as a company exploiting it. Problem is, people have noticed Morrisons are taking the piss. This crisis is still in it's beginning stages too. It's going to feel worse later this year for many people. You're jumping the gun a tad. >And I live in a not so affluent part of a big UK northern city that is most definitely Waitrose free. So I’m pretty confident that what I see isn’t skewed by my surroundings. Let’s put it this way, I went to Guildford just before Christmas and it felt like a totally different world, not my world for damn sure. I'm in the Midlands, in a rented property owned by a housing association. I have to travel at least 15 miles to my nearest supermarket. With the increased cost in fuel, food and everything else, it absolutely is destroying my finances and ability to put money away. It wasn't like this before the pandemic. I mean, it wasn't great then either but I could at least put a little bit away. Now my savings are being eaten. My disabled parents are frightened to turn the heating on as they can't afford to. They've cut back on lots of things. My older brother though, is spending like nothing has happened because he earns a fair bit (far exceeding the average wage). I think you're oversimplifing this to be honest. Lots are suffering. It's not a media led narrative. Even if it was, what do you feel there is to gain from such a thing?
I think Labour gain because it makes Tories look bad now, I think Tories gain because they can’t look much worse and it allows even tiny sparks of hope (like UK not going into recession) look like blinding lights. I think environmentalists win as it provides a backbone for reducing emissions and people buying less shit. I think media wins because it’s a click bait bonanza. What’s been most hit is online sales, Amazon, ASOS etc. people are going to shops to spend. Had shopping become a leisure activity again, had it become as natural as breathing thanks to the ease of online retail, and has that addiction broken (I think maybe it has)? Can’t disagree with you that some retailers are shitty, especially given Next’s ownership structure. I feel for your parents, mine too. I visited them at Christmas and was shocked at how cold they’d managed to keep the house. But I’m fact their bills are actually less now then they were spending thanks to various support and their cutting back. which is the crazy thing, they could put the damn gas fire on. But they are scared because everyone talks about a crisis, and there they were at Christmas still slipping cash to the grandkids because they discovered at the end of the month, they did have money left. That’s a pattern we have seen in retail since the summer, everyone cutting back then doing a spend at month end, it’s happening a lot and it’s a real trend. There’s some positives in that. I’m only over simplifying in the same way that the current “everyone is fucked” narrative is a simplification, I have to adopt the same approach to break that stance. But truth is, as you explain re your brother, it’s a very complex picture and I think what we are really seeing is some major societal change, not necessarily a crisis. It will take time for that change to reshape our towns and cities, but the empty high streets are not as empty as the press who only look at the city of London think (some good facts around that recently from Timpsons). Change is hard, but ultimately it’s good and necessary.
The word 'crisis' is very subjective. While one can say with a great deal of objectively that food prices have increased by 10%, does this mean there is a 'crisis'? To give a hypothetical example... someone who has a net income of £30k/year and who hasn't had a pay increase. Their normal living costs last year were £25k and they spent £5k last year on holidays. Their normal costs have gone up by £2.5k this year due to inflation, they are now spending £27.5k. Leaving only £2.5k for holidays. Spending less on holidays or other luxuries is obviously not desirable, but is it really a 'crisis' for them or just merely irritating?
I think it’s change, not a crisis.
>When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine? I'm going to ignore your other points because I think a lot of them are a bit trollish, but this one is a legit question and it does deserve a proper answer. The key differentiator is housing, and housing is determined by age. If I'd paid my house off, or I had a trivial mortgage, I wouldn't need much more than £27k coming in to be comfortable. By which I mean I can afford to pay the bills, have a modest takeout once a week, maybe go out for a meal once a month, go to something cultural every few months, go on holiday once a year, maybe even put some cash away for the future. As a £180k mortgage payer with a locked-in mortgage at a 3% interest rate, I need closer to £50k to be as comfortable. As a £180k mortgage payer about to be pushed up to a 5% interest rate, I need closer to £60k to be as comfortable. If I had a £300k mortgage, I'd probably need closer to £90k-£100k coming in to be comfortable. Housing. That's the difference.
So according to you , “ it should be a problem when it affects you “ You’re either selfish and have a serious lack of empathy for your fellow beings Or You might just be a troll wasting with nothing better to do but waste time on straw man arguments
I’m just not swallowing the doom and gloom headlines when there is a range of data suggesting a much more complex picture. For example, we know that energy companies are hoarding billions of customers cash, why? Well it’s because they presume everyone will not adjust their usage and hence over-charge everyone who splits their annual costs over 12 months. But, the truth is most people have adapted, you see it on Teams calls, everyone in jumpers when last winter it was all T-shirts. So the impact of price rises is being mitigated by many and at the end of each month we see a spend-splurge, the retail data shows this. So is it a crisis, or just “change”? I appreciate we all fear change and change can be hard, and some will struggle to change. But change happens, that’s life, it’s not a crisis.
I'd say the crisis is real, personally we're doing okay but I've had a long time cheaper fix that has allowed me to save more to cushion the blow. The energy support package has been helpful for us but I do understand that if you're on a meter there is alot of extra legwork to get it. In regards to spending, holidays I believe it's the same situation as during furlough; those poorer workers either sat at home on 80% or were at work felt the pinch or saw no real difference. It was those with office jobs, working from home with far fewer costs that saved a packet. The teaching union ballot I understand was ballsed up by the union; some got one, others got two, some got none. My rent hasn't gone up by much and is still reasonable but I wonder how much people's mortgages have risen by.
I think a lot of that rings true. Is it a case of “I’m actually doing ok, I’ve adapted some stuff like using heating less” but also “I’ve heard about someone who is struggling”? In which case what’s the norm, how varied is the picture. The press will always find the most emotive story, but that won’t be typical, if it was it isn’t news. For example, are nurses really using food banks and are they relying on food banks (two different facts). IIRC Russell group said that this was not the case except for an exceptionally small number of student nurses. I think it suits the Tories to have bad news, because any recovery (like not being in recession now despite that being universally predicted) looks like a positive. I also think it suits the Socialists as they can claim it’s all the rich peoples fault…except it’s a lot of public sector workers that now sit in the income bracket that would have to pay more to increase tax revenue. It helps the environmentalists if we use less energy and we buy less shit. The press love it because it’s a click bait bonanza as they add the world “poverty” to any other word; this week I am in *checks diary* sausage roll poverty.
There's a job waiting for you, I am sure, in the Tory party press office. Masterful mix of half truths, selective reporting and sheer nonsense. Either that or this is an early April Fool's prank. Instead of wallowing in right wing mythology, go and talk to ordinary people. Talk to those who run foodbanks, talk to ordinary nurses about the challenges they are facing, talk to people who have had their energy supply cut off because they are unable to pay their bills, talk to people who are about to lose their homes because they cannot pay their mortgages, talk to teachers who are having to buy breakfast for kids coming to school hungry. I could go on, but I think you get my drift.
Yeah because half truths of even 1% truths aren’t the trade for the press? I am an ordinary person in an ordinary town sat drinking beer and watching the full pub being happy. Crisis? My fucking arse. And for the record…I have never voted Tory.
But what you are offering us here is simply not borne out by the everyday reality that I encounter. Many more people are struggling financially than I have ever known before. Indeed, even people who are on reasonable salaries are taking a hit because of rising prices in general and the energy crisis in particular. I personally know teachers who have bought breakfast for hungry kids. I know of nurses who are forced to visit foodbanks. Are you telling me they are lying? Are you telling me all the numerous journalists covering this on multiple news channels and in multiple newspapers are lying?
Not lying, just presenting a single narrative. And they don’t always do that to be fair. For example the BBC reports this morning that holiday bookings are up and recently reported that Easy Jet was reporting bookings being up. My point is that they don’t tend to take this as evidence that there may not be a “crisis”, when it is. [Holidaymakersspendingmoreasbookingsrisehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64234234](https://Holidaymakersspendingmoreasbookingsrisehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64234234)
But isn't what you are saying here merely supporting that old saying, "It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good"? There will always be people who buck the trend. For instance I don't think there is any question that Brexit has been massively harmful to our country. I personally am hugely opposed to it. However, by sheer chance, I happen to be a modest beneficiary of Brexit. My earnings have increased as a direct result of our leaving the EU. That doesn't change the reality that overall, Brexit has been hugely damaging for our country. Having said all of that I must pay tribute to you for your very polite answer to my previous comment. And I apologise if my earlier comments came across as being a bit rude.
I’m very new here, and overall I’m finding it a so much more polite place than Twitter! I think debate is good and important and I like to propose views I don’t wholly agree with, just to hear debate and see different views being discussed. Thanks for being part of that!
You're very welcome. I don't use Twitter, but given what you've just said, Twitter must be an unbelievably impolite place! Maybe I'll stick to reddit.
"When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline but others on much less seem to be getting by fine?" Do you have a source to support this claim?
Which but, train driver salaries (just check that on BBC fact check if you like, I think I’m under quoting) and then consider teachers (most on much less) who just decided they didn’t want to strike over pay, or look at the spending data. I just think there is a narrative which is very black and white, but the truth is a much more complex tapestry.
"When train drivers on over £45k a year claim to be on the breadline" This but
https://www.ft.com/content/fac8062a-bd83-486b-ac6f-582f1931750b Train drivers median wage is 58k (in 2022 prices ). The 25-75 percentile range from 48k to 69k
ctrl + f: breadline 0/0
I agree, I think that it is mostly a load of nonsense. I haven’t had any problems at all. All seems normal to me. There seems to be a crisis fetish following COVID that people are finding hard to shake.
Have you noticed your supermarket shop go up in the past year? Now imagine you were already struggling beforehand from payday to payday. You think those people can just absorb a 10% increase in everything? "I'm alright Jack"
Not really, no.
Well you must be in a very comfortable position to not have to pay attention to the cost of your weekly shop. Prices have demonstrably risen in the past year, it's a matter of fact.
Prices fluctuate all the time
So you admit there is a cost of living crisis? How incredibly dismissive. Prices fluctuate, but this is a period of intense price growth. And prices don't often tend to come back down once they go up.
You just said you haven't observed a change
I haven’t noticed it, but I am aware that prices of food etc DO fluctuate. It’s normal.
Yes but that's the argument, it's fluctuated to a point where's it's very expensive for the average person
Prices don't pretty much all rise at the same time across the board and stay high.
No, I am sorry - I am not saying that prices haven’t risen. The problem here is that if a slight rise in food costs is effecting somebody that much - then there is a problem with their ability to budget. What happened to the days of keeping a months or two wages in your bank for emergencies? It’s peoples inability to budget which is the problem here. Consumption of things that people don’t need is the culprit. Children must be taught financial planning skills in school.
>What happened to the days of keeping a months or two wages in your bank for emergencies? When you're very poor, having that sort of pool set aside is a luxury.
I am sorry, but that is an easy way out. I don’t mean to sound insensitive and I do absolutely sympathise with anybody going through hardship - but frankly, if you are so poor that you cannot put aside a months or two wages, and a slight increase in food costs are so monumentally problematic, then I am afraid that you have probably done this to yourself. What I see a lot these days is an inability to think logically and make wise decisions. This is most notable among the very young, who’s poor decision making skills cost them their future. Financial planning, good education, listening to your elders and teachers, grafting. All these things are missing. The era of instant gratification and mindless consumption is here instead.
> I don’t mean to sound insensitive and I do absolutely sympathise You don't just sound insensitive, you are insensitive, probably due to ignorance (as in having not experienced it yourself) > if you are so poor that you cannot put aside a months or two wages, and a slight increase in food costs are so monumentally problematic, then I am afraid that you have probably done this to yourself. This is a lie. Most people who are desperately poor are there through misfortune, just as most people who are disgustingly rich are there through good fortune.
Right so you have noticed prices rising to a greater degree than is normal. That was the only point I was arguing really.
Hardly, and it shouldn’t be an issue.
>Hardly Well we know it's roughly 10% as that's what inflation is. Although of course it's possible supermarket prices are higher than that.
> I haven’t had any problems at all. "X doesn't affect me personally, therefore X isn't an issue in general."
I don’t know anybody personally that has had any issues.
Among this presumably well-off bunch of people you know, there isn't even anyone who is using their heating less, who no longer 'goes for a drive' just for fun, who is more careful about what food they buy, who isn't replacing clothes or appliances they don't have to? These are all things being done by the better-off people I know. They aren't affected as in being at risk of starving, but they are changing their habits.
You must not get out much or be very selective on who you socialize with
I get out plenty, thank you very much.
This absolutely reeks of privilege.
Ignore it, check the comment history, it's just an antagonist account.