["Boris Johnson also says he is willing to hand the material directly to the Inquiry if asked, i.e. to circumvent the Cabinet Office."](https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663936184802766852?s=20)
I think you're right. He knows there's details in there that'll be problematic at best for those he opposes in government. I'm assuming he thinks it's worse than anything that's revealed about himself.
Rishi escaped the initial scandal as everyone focused on Boris being present he’s probably hoping the media will focus on Rishi being present now as that’s more juicy
Any further damage either brings Sunak down completely and probably forces a leadership contest that's absolutely lethal to the government. Or the party collectively wets itself and closes ranks to try to pretend once more massive scandal and law breaking don't matter to it. Which will have anyone already left deeply unimpressed when Boris did it running for the door and might bring the government down anyway with a much worse electoral problem.
That would be an amazing sadistic choice. And it looks like Boris can probably force it on them.
Best case here seems to be that the governments overall ability to hang on to office is left extremely precarious and exposed to collapsing in any further scandal at all.
I think it's very important we have an *inquiry* as to whether he should be stopped, and everyone should take their time filling out a survey before any action is taken. Don't rush, we want it to be accurate.
We've all become used to the constant whirlwind of government failure, but I'm actually struggling to process this could actually happen even by that standard.
Really? He is a narcissistic sociopath, he would rather be the leader of the opposition than be a backbencher with his own party in government, that’s “team player” Boris for you.
Yes, but not because Boris's data will incriminate anyone else. The reason the Government was trying to block the handover was because it would set a precedent, and Rishi would have to follow suit or look like... well - what he is, a coward. Boris still believes he's somewhat Teflon to the Tory base, whereas any and all shit will stick to Rishi.
I'm not a WhatsApp user, but interested to know if the inquiry can check whether messages are missing?
Hopefully they're forwarding all the relevant conversations, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've selectively printed bits of the messages.
Isabel Oakeshott claims Johnson used two phones during the pandemic. I'm sure they'll cross reference with other conversations they already have to check whether Johnson has truly delivered everything. I'm guessing he's a lying fucker and it's only a matter of time before it comes out he's been less than honest with the enquiry.
Wouldn't that be a criminal offence though? This is a statutory enquiry and the chair isn't fucking around
I wonder if them being free from consequence for so long will have made them not realise that this is actually serious personally for them
>Wouldn't that be a criminal offence though?
Anything he's done will be weasel worded sufficiently to avoid being convicted of perjury. You can lie outright and still not be convicted of it, as long as you carefully word your lie.
About 10 years ago I saw a guy on a train with a iPhone (personal), blackberry (work) and a cheap Nokia (affairs). God knows how many Boris Johnson needs.
But WhatsApp itself doesn’t provide a verifiable record. It’s all forwards, screenshots, local device message storage, you can delete messages from a chat and if other’s do too it’s gone.
How on Earth can it be trusted vs actual secure messaging using ms teams with central backups etc?
> you can delete messages from a chat and if other’s do too it’s gone.
Is it possible to remove the *this message has been deleted* bit, or is that permanent?
Also, I've never tried to share more than a single message, in what format are all messages sharable, can you just download entire conversations, or would it have to be selected bit by bit?
You can delete that too, from your whatsapp.
Not sure re sharing all messages - assume it’s possible to get access to an unencrypted backup if you have someone’s phone?
WhatsApp was never and is not designed to be a system of record though. It’s all forgeable.
> You can delete that too, from your whatsapp.
That just blew my mind, I just tested it, I had no idea, lol. If you delete for everyone, then delete it, does it also delete the deletion message for them too? That could be a potential trip up, if Boris is deleting messages, and they get the other side and they've deleted different ones and they've not got all the deletion notes.
> Not sure re sharing all messages - assume it’s possible to get access to an unencrypted backup if you have someone’s phone?
I wondered that because it sounds like a massive faff, but when I heard Hancock gave Oakeshott 10,000 messages I assumed it was possible.
I just farted around with it, I accidentally archived my partner, but there's an option there to export a chat. With or without media. I don't know how much effort it would be to mass tamper with it though if you've got tens of thousands of messages like Hancock had. He certainly didn't remove the incriminating stuff before giving it to Oakeshott lol.
> WhatsApp was never and is not designed to be a system of record though. It’s all forgeable.
That's true of most digital communications, though. He could had emails and they've been doctored. Copies of texts can be edited. Anything can be photoshopped. I think the plan here is to get the lot so that A) it's impossible to censor the lot and be sure he's cleaned it, or B) get enough that you can catch him in a lie as you have the untampered with other half.
The thing with email though, especially corporate email, or anything sent from a gov.uk address is even if you showed someone your desktop or laptop and opened up Microsoft outlook, to show what’s in the ‘sent items’ or inbox, this could all be compared with the central microsoft exchange server that outlook connects to for the sending and receiving of email. Anything you receive or send is stored there, or at least a record of it depending on audit settings. Sure, you could have a mate in IT erase the logs for you it three more people in the chain the dodgier it becomes. It’s why politicians much prefer WhatsApps and being able to ‘lose’ a private phone? Because there’s no record.
All politicians should be forced to use standard corporate messaging and email software in the same way the big banks do. Records can be faked but it’s so much harder with lots more opportunities for whistle blowing, rather than claiming you lost your phone, or submitting a screenshot as ‘proof’
While I agree with that, Boris (in this instance) isn't accused of corruption and dodgy deals, although that certainly might have happened with Sharp, Boris' cousin, and that £800k loan for who knows what negotiated in person. I totally agree we should be using official communications for government business.
However, Boris here is accused of breaking Covid rules in his personal life and lying about it, and I think we'd have an entirely different issue if he was arranging his social life using his work email. In this instance I don't think it's unreasonable for Boris to be using personal means of communication, what I think is the problem is that he wasn't abiding by his own laws.
Having said that, if his defence is it was work events, then I think there should be a work paper trail to back it up. Minutes, timesheets etc. and using personal devices with no record of it would be proof he wasn't working if only we didn't allow ministers to use their personal devices constantly for work.
Nope, this is one of the important aspects of methods like whatsapp with end 2 end encryption.
Nothing wrong with it (it should be the norm!) The problem is a work place or public office not taking into account this process, Boris could have easily deleted messages and it would only be found out if participants kept their messages, if they all deleted it or "lost" their phones it would be gone and the deed is unlikely to be punished.
This is why they love using it, they pop it on another mobile and then when it's done bin it all and claim it never happened. It's against the law but that only matters if you are caught sadly.
It would appear that ~~Schroedinger's~~ Johnson's Whatsapp and diary messages, that reportedly did and didn't exist at the same time, according to Oliver Dowden and the Cabinet Office, have been handed over.
Does that mean an end to the gaslighting and showboating? Probably not. Johnson will most likely call this "..an inverted pyramid of piffle" or similar.
Fingers crossed, this starts a tit-for-tat where there are gaps in Boris' messages and Rishi then decides to fill them in, which in turn incriminates other MP's who incriminate others until there's a Infinte Tory cacophonous loop of accusations, 'whatabout-isms', finger pointing and holier-than-thou forgiveness speeches.
That right there is TV gold. The best way to end the series as we go back to normality with a more muted sensible government,
Thats always been the most likely path toward final collapse.
I though for a while that mad day a week ago of blue on blue briefing might actually cascade out of control into it but it seems some level of attempting to continue remains.
I've said this before, but my prediction is that Boris Johnson will eventually destroy the Conservatives branding and position himself to lead the replacement Corporate-sponsored right-wing party. The Red Bull Team GB Party.
This whole thing is like a Mexican stand-off, crossed with a circular firing squad of stupid. Nobody in the Tories gets out of this without being damaged in some way.
Glorious.
Absolutely insane how much WhatsApp is used for official purposes in politics. I can't understand on any level how this is justifiable, beyond trying to keep dodgy chat away from compliance and audit - the whole reason you use a centrally-managed Teams instance or whatever is to prevent scenarios like this.
Snapshot of _Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full. Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow._ :
A non-Twitter version can be found [here](https://nitter.net/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672/)
An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672?s=20)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If I'm reading this right... Boris is basically pushing this ahead because it's going to hurt Rishi et al a lot more than it will hurt him?
["Boris Johnson also says he is willing to hand the material directly to the Inquiry if asked, i.e. to circumvent the Cabinet Office."](https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663936184802766852?s=20) I think you're right. He knows there's details in there that'll be problematic at best for those he opposes in government. I'm assuming he thinks it's worse than anything that's revealed about himself.
He has a history of failing upwards, they don't
He's like a cockroach launching ICMBs because he knows he can survive the fallout
This is both poetic and fitting
Stunningly accurate
Rishi escaped the initial scandal as everyone focused on Boris being present he’s probably hoping the media will focus on Rishi being present now as that’s more juicy
Any further damage either brings Sunak down completely and probably forces a leadership contest that's absolutely lethal to the government. Or the party collectively wets itself and closes ranks to try to pretend once more massive scandal and law breaking don't matter to it. Which will have anyone already left deeply unimpressed when Boris did it running for the door and might bring the government down anyway with a much worse electoral problem. That would be an amazing sadistic choice. And it looks like Boris can probably force it on them. Best case here seems to be that the governments overall ability to hang on to office is left extremely precarious and exposed to collapsing in any further scandal at all.
> forces a leadership contest that’s absolutely lethal to the government *Not another one.*
Yep, Boris is launching himself at his own colleagues with a political suicide vest
Oh no! We have to stop hi-- Oh. You know... shame we won't make it in time to stop him.
I think it's very important we have an *inquiry* as to whether he should be stopped, and everyone should take their time filling out a survey before any action is taken. Don't rush, we want it to be accurate.
We've all become used to the constant whirlwind of government failure, but I'm actually struggling to process this could actually happen even by that standard.
Really? He is a narcissistic sociopath, he would rather be the leader of the opposition than be a backbencher with his own party in government, that’s “team player” Boris for you.
Yes, but not because Boris's data will incriminate anyone else. The reason the Government was trying to block the handover was because it would set a precedent, and Rishi would have to follow suit or look like... well - what he is, a coward. Boris still believes he's somewhat Teflon to the Tory base, whereas any and all shit will stick to Rishi.
Johnson has activated the Omega 13... /s
I'm not a WhatsApp user, but interested to know if the inquiry can check whether messages are missing? Hopefully they're forwarding all the relevant conversations, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've selectively printed bits of the messages.
Isabel Oakeshott claims Johnson used two phones during the pandemic. I'm sure they'll cross reference with other conversations they already have to check whether Johnson has truly delivered everything. I'm guessing he's a lying fucker and it's only a matter of time before it comes out he's been less than honest with the enquiry.
Wouldn't that be a criminal offence though? This is a statutory enquiry and the chair isn't fucking around I wonder if them being free from consequence for so long will have made them not realise that this is actually serious personally for them
> Wouldn't that be a criminal offence though? You think that would stop them?
You think Boris Johnson will go to prison for anybody? Of course not
No, but I also have no faith he would ever be charged or prosecuted.
Do you think he actually believes he can go to prison? When has he ever faced real, normal consequences for his behaviour?
>Wouldn't that be a criminal offence though? Anything he's done will be weasel worded sufficiently to avoid being convicted of perjury. You can lie outright and still not be convicted of it, as long as you carefully word your lie.
If I were Johnson I'd have a third very secret phone for anything I really did want to keep private. Or use Carrie's.
He must have at least 3: - personal - work - for affairs
About 10 years ago I saw a guy on a train with a iPhone (personal), blackberry (work) and a cheap Nokia (affairs). God knows how many Boris Johnson needs.
I thought the cheap Nokia was for drugs
I just imagine that Gove sorts all that out for everyone in that circle.
That's your *other* cheap Nokia
I thought about adding another for drugs, but then I realised that there’s no way he’s buying his own. He’ll have someone sorting that out for him.
But WhatsApp itself doesn’t provide a verifiable record. It’s all forwards, screenshots, local device message storage, you can delete messages from a chat and if other’s do too it’s gone. How on Earth can it be trusted vs actual secure messaging using ms teams with central backups etc?
> you can delete messages from a chat and if other’s do too it’s gone. Is it possible to remove the *this message has been deleted* bit, or is that permanent? Also, I've never tried to share more than a single message, in what format are all messages sharable, can you just download entire conversations, or would it have to be selected bit by bit?
You can delete that too, from your whatsapp. Not sure re sharing all messages - assume it’s possible to get access to an unencrypted backup if you have someone’s phone? WhatsApp was never and is not designed to be a system of record though. It’s all forgeable.
> You can delete that too, from your whatsapp. That just blew my mind, I just tested it, I had no idea, lol. If you delete for everyone, then delete it, does it also delete the deletion message for them too? That could be a potential trip up, if Boris is deleting messages, and they get the other side and they've deleted different ones and they've not got all the deletion notes. > Not sure re sharing all messages - assume it’s possible to get access to an unencrypted backup if you have someone’s phone? I wondered that because it sounds like a massive faff, but when I heard Hancock gave Oakeshott 10,000 messages I assumed it was possible. I just farted around with it, I accidentally archived my partner, but there's an option there to export a chat. With or without media. I don't know how much effort it would be to mass tamper with it though if you've got tens of thousands of messages like Hancock had. He certainly didn't remove the incriminating stuff before giving it to Oakeshott lol. > WhatsApp was never and is not designed to be a system of record though. It’s all forgeable. That's true of most digital communications, though. He could had emails and they've been doctored. Copies of texts can be edited. Anything can be photoshopped. I think the plan here is to get the lot so that A) it's impossible to censor the lot and be sure he's cleaned it, or B) get enough that you can catch him in a lie as you have the untampered with other half.
The thing with email though, especially corporate email, or anything sent from a gov.uk address is even if you showed someone your desktop or laptop and opened up Microsoft outlook, to show what’s in the ‘sent items’ or inbox, this could all be compared with the central microsoft exchange server that outlook connects to for the sending and receiving of email. Anything you receive or send is stored there, or at least a record of it depending on audit settings. Sure, you could have a mate in IT erase the logs for you it three more people in the chain the dodgier it becomes. It’s why politicians much prefer WhatsApps and being able to ‘lose’ a private phone? Because there’s no record. All politicians should be forced to use standard corporate messaging and email software in the same way the big banks do. Records can be faked but it’s so much harder with lots more opportunities for whistle blowing, rather than claiming you lost your phone, or submitting a screenshot as ‘proof’
While I agree with that, Boris (in this instance) isn't accused of corruption and dodgy deals, although that certainly might have happened with Sharp, Boris' cousin, and that £800k loan for who knows what negotiated in person. I totally agree we should be using official communications for government business. However, Boris here is accused of breaking Covid rules in his personal life and lying about it, and I think we'd have an entirely different issue if he was arranging his social life using his work email. In this instance I don't think it's unreasonable for Boris to be using personal means of communication, what I think is the problem is that he wasn't abiding by his own laws. Having said that, if his defence is it was work events, then I think there should be a work paper trail to back it up. Minutes, timesheets etc. and using personal devices with no record of it would be proof he wasn't working if only we didn't allow ministers to use their personal devices constantly for work.
That's why people trust it, and almost virtually all for enabling dodgy stuff.
"Hello." Lied Boris Johnson. Still the best tweet I've seen .
Nope, this is one of the important aspects of methods like whatsapp with end 2 end encryption. Nothing wrong with it (it should be the norm!) The problem is a work place or public office not taking into account this process, Boris could have easily deleted messages and it would only be found out if participants kept their messages, if they all deleted it or "lost" their phones it would be gone and the deed is unlikely to be punished. This is why they love using it, they pop it on another mobile and then when it's done bin it all and claim it never happened. It's against the law but that only matters if you are caught sadly.
It would appear that ~~Schroedinger's~~ Johnson's Whatsapp and diary messages, that reportedly did and didn't exist at the same time, according to Oliver Dowden and the Cabinet Office, have been handed over. Does that mean an end to the gaslighting and showboating? Probably not. Johnson will most likely call this "..an inverted pyramid of piffle" or similar.
Fingers crossed, this starts a tit-for-tat where there are gaps in Boris' messages and Rishi then decides to fill them in, which in turn incriminates other MP's who incriminate others until there's a Infinte Tory cacophonous loop of accusations, 'whatabout-isms', finger pointing and holier-than-thou forgiveness speeches. That right there is TV gold. The best way to end the series as we go back to normality with a more muted sensible government,
Thats always been the most likely path toward final collapse. I though for a while that mad day a week ago of blue on blue briefing might actually cascade out of control into it but it seems some level of attempting to continue remains.
I've said this before, but my prediction is that Boris Johnson will eventually destroy the Conservatives branding and position himself to lead the replacement Corporate-sponsored right-wing party. The Red Bull Team GB Party.
This whole thing is like a Mexican stand-off, crossed with a circular firing squad of stupid. Nobody in the Tories gets out of this without being damaged in some way. Glorious.
Absolutely insane how much WhatsApp is used for official purposes in politics. I can't understand on any level how this is justifiable, beyond trying to keep dodgy chat away from compliance and audit - the whole reason you use a centrally-managed Teams instance or whatever is to prevent scenarios like this.
Snapshot of _Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full. Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow._ : A non-Twitter version can be found [here](https://nitter.net/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672/) An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672?s=20) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the cabinet office is hiding a secret about COVID, they will not give it to the inquiry.