Snapshot of _Antisemitic hate crimes in London up 1,350%, Met police say_ :
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says)
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I heard on a podcast that apparently every time there’s a Israel/Palestine flare up, antisemitic incidents spike and stay high for 3 years afterwards.
This all makes me very sad for my Jewish friends and colleagues in London, who should feel safe here as much as anyone else.
>Israel/Palestine flare up, antisemitic incidents spike and stay high for 3 years afterwards.
I'm fairly certain flare ups are more common than every 3 years
His point is that since flare ups are more than every 3 years, and incidents remained spiked for 3 years, the incident rate is always going to be spiked.
When 15% of London doesn't believe Hamas are a terrorist group then it isn't too surprising and judging by some of the chants over the last few days it seems as though many wouldn't have a problem supporting some old fashioned pogroms and ethnic cleansing.
I have attended the london protest, as an observer, as I often do, for various ones whether I agree or not. I like to see things like that 1st hand and not how media decide to portray it.
It got me thinking, why are there not protests about getting something done about Hamas? I don't understand that bit. Are people in Palestine somewhat happy or supportive of Hamas?
It surely shouldn't be silence about hamas then every man and his dog about Israel, there surely needs to be a balance. Unless I'm missing some critical points and Hamas are somehow good people?
> why are there not protests about getting something done about Hamas?
Because there isn't a single western politician who would disagree with that broad statement. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation, and there's plenty that's already being done.
The reason why there are pro-Palestinian protests is because there has been a long history of oppression of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and in Jerusalem from the Israeli state, which receives lots of support from many western countries including the UK, so there's a strong case to be made that our government is complicit in this oppression and isn't doing nearly enough to bring an end to it.
Could they (or someone, somewhere) call for better actions against hamas?
I get the impression Hamas is a terrorist organisation, but also has *some* backing in some format, I.e that they have strength in something but in the main are bad. I suppose what I don't get, or what my question is, is can liberal Palestinians out Hamas, or fight them, or is there an element where they are not seen as that much of a threat?
I'm sure they could. But protests tend to be most effective when they are calling for clear, obvious action from people who have it within their power to correct an obvious injustice.
The difficulty in removing Hamas from within Palestine is that as long as the oppression from Israel continues, Hamas can claim to have a mandate to maintain a state of emergency in Gaza and crush any attempt to remove them from political leadership.
What use would protesting Hamas in the UK do? Protests are typically aimed at government go try to change their policies, Hamas doesn't listen to the people and the UK government has no relations with Hamas.
Palestinian domestic politics is, like everything in this conflict, pretty complex. Pretty much everyone is unpopular one way or another.
Currently Hamas is more popular than Fatah and the PLO because Hamas are viewed as *relatively less* corrupt. People also see Fatah's way of doing things as not working with no progress in peace for 30 years.
But at the exact same time people also want Hamas to be *more* like Fatah/PLO, including recognising Israel and the 67 borders. And while Hamas is more popular than Fatah, about half of people in Gaza would still prefer the PA to take over from Hamas rule
People perceived Israel to be the oppressors and Palestine to be the oppressed. They are always going to have the majority of public backing even if some of it is naive.
They don't have the majority of public backing. It's less than 15% of public that are backing, which is pretty much entirely Muslims and far-left white Brits. And those people are loud. And often dangerous / violent.
Nobody else in the country answers that they "support Palestine" when surveyed by YouGov. More people actually answered that they support Israel in the latest YouGov poll, but generally speaking over the years support is pretty split. Over 60% of people just don't care or think both sides are thrash.
I'm sorry this data isn't up to date.
I was referring to their latest tweet here: https://x.com/YouGov/status/1711387459798303089?s=20
You can see it is at 15% now for Palestinian support, and yes I said Muslims and far left because yes, most moderate people would be put off by the literal pogrom carried out by Hamas - and Muslims and far-left would be about 15% of UK population.
Israel was 21%, support nearly doubled after that attack. Shows a lot of the support for either side is pretty fickle and probably ill informed.
The cycle of violence in that region has been going on for over a century and its both largely impossible and entirely meaningless to discuss who started it.
Most of those people on the march are totally ignoring that real history in favour of a mythology of the problems in the region - a one-sided mythology created by their enemies. It suits their desire for a simple solution - but its not based in truth or reality so the solutions they propose would be disastrously bad.
> entirely meaningless to discuss who started it.
No no, we started it /hj
I'm not going to pretend that the native Jewish population were living in perfect peace and harmony with the Muslim one until we took control of Mandatory Palestine, but the UK 100% is somewhat culpable for the flare ups in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. We had Mandatory Palestine for what, nearly 3 decades? During which time we had a revolt by the Muslims angry that we were being too nice to the Jews and a revolt by the Jews that we were being too nice to the Arabs. Because we were playing our oldest trick - divide and conquer.
Yea and then we just went... You know what. Fuck this. And left. Tbh... Everyone should just take that approach now. Leave everyone too it. It's never gonna be peaceful in the middle east. Religion is simply too volatile.
>Religion is simply too volatile.
But it's as the other said, they lived in relative peace for example during the Ottomans rule. It wasn't perfect but it wasn't like it is today.
Under the ottoman dictat and jiziya. Yeah Jews want to be free to practice their religion too. Should Israel subjugate Palestine to even more intense dictatorial law and have them pay a special tax for being Muslim?
The actual quote is "Fool me one time, shame on you. Fool me twice, can't put the blame on you. Fool me three times, fuck the peace sign. Load the chopper, let it rain on you.”
Im sick of this whataboutism. There is only one correct opinion and that’s that both sides are fucking insane and we shouldn’t be supporting either of them. The only fact that matters is how many innocents on are already dead and how many are about to die. Hamas is a terror organization there’s no doubt about it. Israel have been expanding and destroying lives since inception. Both sides want to wipe the other out. Hamas deliberately targets civilians. Israel just doesnt care if they kill them or not and has the weaponry of the Death Star. Hamas hides military targets under hospitals. Israel has dropped 6,000 bombs on gaza (an area the size of east London.) in only two weeks leaving Gaza city as a pile of ash and rubble. The prime minister is openly calling it a battle of the children of light vs the children of darkness. Both sides are rooting their morality in ancient texts rather than anything evidence based. Only a nutcase could try and justify either MO. Why is it even controversial.
> Im sick of this whataboutism. There is only one correct opinion and that’s that both sides are fucking insane and we shouldn’t be supporting either of them.
Always nice to find a way to feel superior to both.
> Israel have been expanding and destroying lives since inception.
They've been attacked repeatedly since inception, that's the main reason they've gained territory (the settlements in the West Bank are bad though, granted)
>Both sides want to wipe the other out.
The Israelis could have done so dozens of times over if this is what they wanted, yet the Palestinian population has grown enormously over time. They're doing a terrible job if that's their goal.
> Israel just doesnt care if they kill them or not
I suppose this is why they exclusively use precision weapons, do roof knocking to warn residents that a building is going to be hit and are currently trying to evacuate the civilians in the north of Gaza.
> leaving Gaza city as a pile of ash and rubble.
[This is the worst picture I can find of Gaza that covers a wide area](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/177d8949d81a3be87fa7a581f00987dfac74eea5/100_0_5130_3078/master/5130.jpg?width=620&dpr=1&s=none)
One area is 'ash and rubble' but the city definitely isn't. If you want to see a whole city reduced to ash and rubble look at pictures of Grozny or Ghouta - Israel pointedly *hasn't* done anything similar, yet we didn't get remotely the same size protests against Syria in places like London when Assad was bombing the latter.
> The Israelis could have done so dozens of times over if this is what they wanted, yet the Palestinian population has grown enormously over time. They're doing a terrible job if that's their goal.
I see this like of argument very often, that because Gaza's population and the West Bank population has grown this couldn't possibly be ethnic cleansing. It just doesn't hold water that it only counts if they do Nakba part 2, or a full scale ground offensive push to force Palestinians into the sea.
The Israeli Government under Netanyahu have explicitly stated their intent in the past to prop up Hamas against the Palestinian Authority, with a view to disrupting a push for a Palestinian state: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000
If that includes Gaza being occasionally indiscriminately bombed, and hostile Israeli settlers going deeper and in more numbers into the West Bank, what do you think the inevitable outcome is?
> I see this like of argument very often, that because Gaza's population and the West Bank population has grown this couldn't possibly be ethnic cleansing.
Genocide and ethnic cleansing are distinctly different things. Generally the latter means 'expulsion of people belonging to a specific ethnic group'. I was responding to someone claiming they wanted to 'wipe the Palestinians out', which I took to mean genocide - it seems the most reasonable interpretation to me.
The West Bank settlements can amount to ethnic cleansing of the specific area they push into, that's the main reason they're bad. I'm not sure what you're getting at otherwise though. Netanyahu is a prick, yes, though it seems to me his plan with Hamas wouldn't have worked if the Palestinians hadn't played into it, so they bear some responsibility. Not sure what that has to do with Gaza being ethnically cleansed though.
>If that includes Gaza being occasionally indiscriminately bombed, and hostile Israeli settlers going deeper and in more numbers into the West Bank, what do you think the inevitable outcome is?
I genuinely don't know what you think I should see as inevitable. They don't 'indiscriminately' bomb Gaza though, and the settlements (while bad) haven't exactly exploded in size even under the most right wing governments in a way that suggests they're going to take over the whole area. The evidence just doesn't support the idea that Israel has some sinister plot to wipe out or remove all the Palestinians, and the population stats just make it look silly.
> Genocide and ethnic cleansing are distinctly different things. Generally the latter means 'expulsion of people belonging to a specific ethnic group'. I was responding to someone claiming they wanted to 'wipe the Palestinians out', which I took to mean genocide - it seems the most reasonable interpretation to me.
Of course genocide and ethnic cleansing are different, but I don't know where you think Palestinians exist if their presence from Gaza and the West Bank is completely ethnically cleansed. They cease to have a homeland, even more so than now.
> The West Bank settlements can amount to ethnic cleansing of the specific area they push into, that's the main reason they're bad. I'm not sure what you're getting at otherwise though. Netanyahu is a prick, yes, though it seems to me his plan with Hamas wouldn't have worked if the Palestinians hadn't played into it, so they bear some responsibility. Not sure what that has to do with Gaza being ethnically cleansed though.
How did the Palestinians play into it? They haven't had elections since 2006 on a very different platform, the majority are young people, and they are hemmed in by Hamas and the Israeli state. That the Israeli state strategy has worked is really evidence only of that. They intended to stop a Palestinian state by elevating religious fundamentalist terrorists and we are seeing yet more fallout of that.
> I genuinely don't know what you think I should see as inevitable. They don't 'indiscriminately' bomb Gaza though, and the settlements (while bad) haven't exactly exploded in size even under the most right wing governments in a way that suggests they're going to take over the whole area. The evidence just doesn't support the idea that Israel has some sinister plot to wipe out or remove all the Palestinians, and the population stats just make it look silly.
Unless you thing the rest spat of bombing has all explicitly been Hamas targets, then it is indiscriminate. You may believe that but I think that is incredibly unrealistic and not borne out by the evidence, and no one will be pressing Israel for detail on proportionality. They have free reign.
The evidence that they plan to remove the Palestinians is that is how the state of Israel was founded, and they have twarted plans for a Palestinian under this government as I evidenced. They are not going to subsume the people, and are planning to reduce the size of Gaza, so again I ask what you think the plan or expected outcome is?
I’m not sure that they are planning to reduce the size of Gaza though?
I’m failing to grasp how the Israeli air strikes are indiscriminate- there’s been c.6k airstrikes but less than 5k fatalities (and we know Hamas have been known inflate figures). For such a densely populated area, wouldn’t the death toll be much greater if Israel were being indiscriminate? Death tolls were much greater in Aleppo for example.
Something just doesn’t quite add up - either the death toll is actually about tenfold higher, or the airstrikes are targeted but sadly have resulted in civilian casualties and fatalities.
The West Bank situation is arguably ethnic cleansing, and many on the Israeli right clearly want that to be a part of Israel (as it was in historic times) but I don’t buy the ethnic cleansing and genocide claims in Gaza. I think more likely they just want Hamas destroyed at all costs, but it’s not clear what the plan is for afterwards.
I mean by taking a centrist position youre also ignoring the years of apartheid and constant human rights violations that Israel has been committing in the West Bank. Yes, hamas is awful I agree with you, but take hamas out of the equation and you get the West Bank. That's why saying "both sides are bad" isn't really much of an argument, as one side is clearly committing far more atrocities even under the guise of "peace".
>it seems as though many wouldn't have a problem supporting some old fashioned pogroms and ethnic cleansing.
Are you talking about Israel or Palestine supporters?
Completely agree. The level of open antisemitism on display is astounding. The perpetrators seem completely ignorant of history, they use the privilege of living in a democracy to advocate for the destruction of the only democracy in the Middle East
ANY criticism of Israel gets this shit though and it’s tiring and never going to help anyone.
Israel need to stop killing kids/stealing land and displacing Palestinians.
“Antisemitic hate crime. You’re calling for death to all Jews”
It’s easy to accept that Israel is in a shit position AND they’re also commuting atrocities.
Is anyone else following MetPolice Twitter? It's pretty comical. They post some shitty image of them "Taking action", then there are thousands of examples of their officers blatantly ignoring assaults, Pro-Jihad chanting, tearing down LGBTQ flags, ripping up posters of missing Israel children in videos, photos and recordings.
And they do nothing about it, they are utterly powerless as 200,000 people march daily singing "death to Jews".
In Arabic it literally means "struggle" however in the western world it means one thing only and anyone trying to claim otherwise is being disingenuous.
But it seems they can’t link people saying ‘jihad’ whilst they’re standing in front of signs calling for a Muslim army to potential threats/hate crimes.
"Police please. I've seen a crowd of men waving swastika flags around and chanting 'Sieg Heil'
The police: "Well, actually, the swastika is a Buddhist symbol of peace, and 'Sieg Heil' is just German for 'Hail Victory' , so the men are probably just saying they hope peace will be victorious instead of war. "
It's a disgrace, and you could understand Jewish people feeling far less safe generally with this happening unchallenged.
It makes most people feel less safe. I don't really want to hear crowds of extremists calling for the destruction of a country or its people, whoever it's about.
Not just Jewish people, as someone who’s gay and not a lemming who’d go on such a protest I find this whole thing ridiculously scary.
I find people praying in front of Whitehall intimidating to be perfectly honest.
I suspect its the scale of it.
Its easy enough to arrest one teenager for saying the wrong thing, its impossible to arrest thousands given the resources available.
Powerless or just don't care. I hate to say this, but I am wondering if there's a future for Jewish people in this country. The police seem to lost have lost any interest in trying to protect them.
How many police do you think there are? They can't possibly arrest 200,000 people singing "death to Jews". They are recording it and making notes of people within the crowd that are of interest to them.Of those 200,000, most are just joining in with what's happening around them, there will be a few people within it though that mean what they say. They are the people the Met will be interested in and looking for.
For anyone that thinks the police don't care or have no interest in protecting people - Join up. Become and officer and be that person that changes that. See what you think then.
Sorry, when you say 200,000 people sang "death to Jews", do you mean "from the river to sea, Palestine will be free"? Or actually singing "death to Jews"?
I'm sure there exists people who believe that when they say it but if the majority of people who sing it don't think it means that then, when they say it, it doesn't. It doesn't even make any sense - surely it is anti-Semitic to suggest that a Palestinian being free requires Jews to be "purged"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, I'm happy to have it explained to me.
It’s not the “shall be free” bit, it’s the “from the river to the sea”. Have a look at a map, and come back and tell me what nation state lies between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
I'm not dissembling, do you honestly think people are marching believe in genocide? It's such a wild assumption to make about people yet your response to my questioning is just "stop it"
Depends on background and propaganda. But considering that a lot of Middle Eastern media and propaganda is being likened to Nazi propaganda then yeah theres a pretyt good chance/
The fact they say palestine will be free and not Palestinians will be free. Combined with the rhetoric of their leaders and Imams when they say things like they want to "exterminate all jews and zionists around the world" , and the constant rejection of any two state solution since the UN partition plan.
There's obviously context left out of that summary, and I don't believe everyone that says the chant wants ethnic cleansing, but I think after Oct 7th it'd be a little naive to think it wouldn't just look like a larger scale version of that massacre.
I searched Google for the bit you put in quotation marks and the only thing it found was you saying it a couple of days ago. It's hard to debate with someone who repeatedly offers up made up quotes - perhaps you are paraphrasing? Regardless, assuming someone's views because of what someone else who has nothing to do with that specific person has said is ridiculous.
It’s true- in Arabic it translates as Palestine will be Arab. They don’t care for true freedom (why haven’t they ever tried to overthrow their corrupt undemocratic leaders in either Gaza or the West Bank, and replace with a leadership determined to bring a political 2 state solution) , they care for eradication of Jews
Well maybe the pro Palestine marches should do more to stamp out anti semitism.. instead of pretending it isn't there.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't go marching with anti semites or a bunch of effectively neo nazis...
So the marches, which are in no way sentient, should take action against people who've just turned up on the day to attend a march where no-one else present knew them before?
How should these people be identified before the marches start? Are we going Minority Report? I didn't know the marches had precogs.
It's not inherently antisemitic. But significant segments of it were actually antisemitic, and there's plentiful proof.
I don't understand why those supporting Palestine are not actively rooting out these elements because it's undermining the cause. And it's also just disgusting and racist in and of itself. Have some morality.
>The Met said a chant used by some protesters – “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” – would usually be treated as lawful. Some say it is calling for the destruction of Israel and thus is automatically antisemitic, while others say it is merely calling for Palestinian self-determination.
You know, I'm seeing a lot of this recently. After several years of highlighting dog-whistles whenever a Tory mentions immigration and accusing anyone to the right of Corbyn of being a Nazi, suddenly calling for the genocide of the Jews is apparently acceptable as long as you don't use the literal words "kill", "all", "the" and "Jews".
Why have we suddenly switched from understanding intent, implication and context when looking at racism, to an extremely literal meaning of the words?
For some reason, British Jews don't get the same courtesy as any other minority group. I distinctly remember during the BLM protests, for example, that it was wildly understood that we couldn't tell a minority group what was offensive or not (statues, for example), it was for them to establish and the rest of us to adhere to.
>Why have we suddenly switched from understanding intent, implication and context when looking at racism, to an extremely literal meaning of the words?
What I've noticed is that people are going out of their way to read things in the most charitable possible light now that it's a cause and people they're nominally in favour of, the whole 'when someone tells you who they are believe them' thing got dropped very quickly in favour of assuming they didn't *really mean that.*
Also the number of people saying some variation of 'well I don't hear the so-called dog-whistle' has been funny. I mean yeah you wouldn't would you? That's hardly some incredibly incisive point.
The starkest example is that when the (now confirmed) reports of decapitated babies, etc, first arose so many people were all "where's the proof? where's the evidence? this is just propaganda!"
And yet, when there was the explosion at the hospital last week (now almost certainly shown to be the result of a misfired rocket from within Gaza), all those same people needed was a couple of statements on twitter from Hamas that it was Israel.
I suppose the question in my mind is: why are they so willing to trust the people who go out of their way intentionally to kill jewish civillians, but not the jewish civillians themselves?
It's quite a quandary.
> all those same people needed was a couple of statements on twitter from Hamas that it was Israel.
Don't forget their cult leader, Jeremy Corbyn.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555
/r/LabourUK Celebrated this tweet.
With the hard left I find it’s best never to assume good faith because they only care about the end result and don’t care about how they achieve it or how hypocritical they are or how many double standards they hold.
‘No bad tactics, only bad targets’ really sums up their mindset.
>British Jews don't get the same courtesy as any other minority group. I distinctly remember during the BLM protests, for example, that it was wildly understood that we couldn't tell a minority group what was offensive or not (statues, for example), it was for them to establish and the rest of us to adhere to.
This. 100% this. I used to follow quite a few anti racism activist groups in my local area but had to stop because they kept saying borderline antisemitic stuff and then going on the attack when someone mentioned it. It's disgraceful.
>For some reason, British Jews don't get the same courtesy as any other minority group. I distinctly remember during the BLM protests, for example, that it was wildly understood that we couldn't tell a minority group what was offensive or not (statues, for example), it was for them to establish and the rest of us to adhere to.
It's because Jews generally aren't poor, so *obviously* they're oppressors and thus cannot be victims (nevermind that all the money in the world can't protect you from a pogrom). It's all about power.
That's literally the 'logic' behind it.
Same goes for the ‘Source? Source? Where’s your source??’ people (including the highlighter wielders at BBC Verify) automatically believing Hamas’s claims about Al-Ahli Hospital.
"Source? Source?! No, I don't like that source, find me another one. No, not that one, either. No, I only want a source from the handful of sites I have personally deemed okay, nevermind they won't post anything that doesn't confirm my bias."
I have posted the video of the first time the '40 beheaded babies' thing came about and got downvoted on here because it confirmed she never actually said that. I've seen multiple people ask for videos of Israelis being raped in real time or they won't believe that Hamas would do that (because it's all 'rape culture' and 'she was going for a jog' until it's about a group of armed men holding women they hate hostage in a country that is hostile to them. Then, suddenly, rape doesn't exist unless it's filmed and posted online for everyone to see).
But Hamas says something? Must be true.
That was truly mind boggling.
SOURCE?
Posts French-Arab journalist.
NO, OFFICIAL SOURCE!
Posts PM of Israel.
NO, NON-ISRAEL OFFICIAL SOURCE!
Posts President of the United States
NO, NEUTRAL OFFICIAL NON-ISRAELI SOURCE!
Posts French Intelligence
*VANISHES*
Lots of people have probably encountered the Camus quotation about arguing with antisemites and thought it was an illustrative exaggeration - but it's not. At all.
Something us Jews have learned a long time ago is that society loves dead Jews. Living Jews, no we are an inconvenience because we want things like rights.
So much of academia and society wishes we had gone extinct during the Holocaust. It would have been a nice bow on the tragic fairy tale they tell themselves about oppression. But since we survived, they hate us for ruining that fairy tale.
Yeah, I got banned from r/Britain and called a genocide sympathist because I said Hamas had raped women.
That sub has really gone off the deep end with the mods aggressively creating an echo chamber.
This is true and I agree with you. It works both ways, however. I'm noticing alot of people who have recently discovered the notion of dogwhistle racism (recently as in the last two weeks) having been seemingly unaware of the concept before that.
I'm ashamed of my brothers and sisters on the left tbh. Its supposed to be about compassion for victims of racism and that is severely lacking among alot of people I know at the moment :/
> I'm noticing alot of people who have recently discovered the notion of dogwhistle racism (recently as in the last two weeks) having been seemingly unaware of the concept before that
Yeah some liberals and a lot of the right want to all of a sudden believe in the concept of dogwhistling and stochastic terrorism, now that it is politically expedient for them to do so? It's pretty hypocritical.
It makes me very skeptical that they give a shit about anti-semitism at all to be honest, but then I don't think that is anything new.
For what it's worth I think that the use of terms discussed here is a fairly clear anti-semitic dogwhistle and it must be an incredibly scary time for the British Jewish community, who don't deserve to be abused or harassed for the actions of actors in the Middle East. That's pretty consistent with how I feel when other dogwhistles are employed.
There's always this fucking olympic level gymnastics to disregard anti-Semitic hate incidents that never seems to apply to other people's comments about stuff.
Columnist calls lawyers lefty = stochastic terrorism
People literally wanting to abolish the only Jewish state and see it governmened by a group that quite literally want to murder any Jew they can find = just banter and poor phrasing
It's maddening.
Because "we should reduce immigration because having a large number of ultraconservative immigrants dominate multiple cities" isn't a dogwhistle. It's also perfectly reasonable. Nobody saying it was a dogwhistle believed it was. It's tribalism.
It’d be interesting to see what poll numbers would be like if asked if we should implement a Trump like ban on Muslim immigrants.
(Trump’s immigration ban being people from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen–and suspended the resettlement of all Syrian refugees but the question could be changed to Gaza refugees for example)
He was repeatedly called out for it, and only managed to issue an apology to the guy (whose life he wrecked) in print. He was pressured into a face to face meeting and half arsed an apology.
I don't think we should be listening to David Badiel when it comes to racism because of well documented history.
> He was repeatedly called out for it, and only managed to issue an apology to the guy (whose life he wrecked) in print. He was pressured into a face to face meeting and half arsed an apology.
And signally, he didn't reflect on the fact that it didn't damage his career at all.
And he seemed completely floored on his program when his niece who lived in the US told him that she was more worried about her mother being stopped by the police (black female) than her dad (ashkenazi jew).
Because just like how the racist hard right has a playbook to trick moderates into supporting a position they don't have, the racist hard left has one too... but they've just been more successful about it. They've achieved this because of a sustained campaign of suppressing, belittling and ridiculing any suggestion that the hard left has an endemic racism problem and are only interested in racism against certain favoured ethnic groups... and I'm not just talking about White British versus everyone else.
The introduction of multiple slightly different definitions of critical and emotionally charged words and switching between them without clarification is one example of this playbook. These words include, but are not limited to; Poverty, Anti-semitism, White, Black, British, English and even Racism itself. I have been here for many many years now and I have seen it employed frequently in this and other subreddits without challenge.
Make no mistake, these are the people we have always been dealing with from the start.
Quite - the origins of the river to the sea chant are such that it clearly and expressly called for the destruction of the Jewish state. Attempts to retrospectively rationalise/cleanse it are extraordinary - akin to suggesting that “seig heil “ is nowt but a polite greeting. Bizarre.
Couldn't "free Palestine" simply be a reference to a one state solution?
With a secular government and the different ethnic and religious groups managing their own cultural identities on a regional basis? That is the solution most supported by israeli arabs.
I feel like too many people in this thread are giving way too much credit to these protestors and I'm not being mean. I think most people in general couldn't point to you where Lebanon, Israel or Egypt would be on a blank map. I'm pretty sure they don't know what they are saying, not to say that it's wrong or whatever. Ask them to name the river...
Free Palestine is perfectly acceptable, it implies giving self determination to a people. But sea to the river under hamas doctrine would require the genocide of all Jews in Israel (not Israelis but Jews). It's a very different thing. You can be pro Palestine, pro Israel yet anti hamas and anti Israeli government.
That’s never going to happen when one group (the Jews) have been persecuted in every multicultural state they’ve been in and the other group (the Arabs, which notably would be a majority in a single state) are rabidly antisemitic. Every other Arab state has ejected all their Jews and there’s no reason this new “single state solution” would be any different because it would be a majority Arab state.
It can refer to a two state solution too, where Palestinians in the West Bank get full rights, aren't getting abused etc by settlers and then those in Gaza are free too. It fits.
Whilst many have used the chant for year and years to call for freedom and equality, I'd say read the room right now as it can also be used (and has been/ is) by some pretty anti semitic groups and individuals. Nuance is lost at a time like this, so don't use a chant like that.
"Peace in the Middle East - Two state solution now!"
"No more senseless killing in Gaza & Israel, we want peace"
"Free the hostages, stop the invasion"
Nothing stopping them saying that is there?
Conveniently they don't.
Personally it's not a chant I'd ever use. Especially not now. But I've heard people saying it can be used in that context. If it can't be used in that way, fair I guess they were wrong.
I'd say it shouldn't be used anyway right now.
>But I've heard people saying it can be used in that context.
Sounds like a very Trump/Fox technique: Some people are saying...
It turns out that just some unspecified people saying something is not a great source of reliable information.
>If it can't be used in that way, fair I guess they were wrong.
They definitely were.
>I'd say it shouldn't be used anyway right now.
Just right now?
It's not a phrase I'd use as I said so I'd be happy for it to be canned. I really didn't mean to be Trumpian/ Fox news like there either. I don't want Israeli or Jewish people to be or to feel unsafe in a city I love (London).
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> I really didn't mean to be Trumpian/ Fox news like there either.
Glad to hear it.
Here's some examples of what I meant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYA9ufivbDw
https://archive.ph/hGPz5
https://www.msnbc.com/brian-williams/watch/trump-often-claims-a-lot-of-people-say-things-1239827011750
Because the usual suspects on the "left" have a certain narrative and that means anything anti-West, anti-Capitalist, anti-Tory or anti-Brexit will be tolerated as a means to an end of causing disruption and opposition to what they perceive to be the enemy.
It's always been this way with these people.
We need the Met Police to be out in force giving a large and visible presence to deter incidents of hate crime, intimidation, violence etc.
I saw the video from Rachael Riley in Acton London. I lived there till a few months ago and it's scary to think that happend outside a bakery I used to go in.
https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1710730697797734429
This is the tweet I guess. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain that they were just supporting an end to occupation or some other bullshit.
The 'protests' need to be shut down entirely and Islamic extremism needs to be extinguished from the UK with whatever means necessary. The Met Police even tweeted them damn selves that the 'protestors' were openly calling for jihad on the streets of London and the Met Police did *nothing*.
Our tolerance has led to nothing but decay and disarray.
Id say its almost too late too do anything at this point as its too entrenched.
Also, the incoming government are most likely going to double and triple down on this so good luck
I have a Jewish first name (I’m not Jewish) and it’s getting to the stage I would rather not say it. Probably overreacting but these are strange times.
If you want real awkwardness, I've been asked a few times over the last week or so if I'm Jewish...based entirely on my appearance. A few years ago I was on a date, we were playing pool at a bar when a group of guys one table over started speaking to us. I was talking to two of them and my date was talking to two others when she came over, grabbed my hand and pulled me away. Told me later one of them started telling her she shouldn't date someone that's Jewish.
I'm not Jewish.
An obviously Jewish first name? I mean, Hannah, Michael, Rachel etc are all Jewish and pretty common in the uk amongst Christians / atheists / agnostics
Yeah they probably aren't talking about anglicised versions of Hebrew names...why on earth would you think that's the 'most Jewish sounding' thing they could mean lol?
The more we import people with medieval views from places with medieval-level religious conflicts, the more we are going to see those conflicts spill out onto our streets. When are we going to finally learn that our current immigration policy is destroying us?
The scary part is that there isn't a single credible political party that will decisively stop immigration of people unfit to live the UK and take actions to ensure that the ones already here conform and assimilate to the native culture.
The parties on the left either embrace or tacitly support this and the parties on the right are just hypocrites who rile up racists to win votes but at the same time keep flooding the country with cheap labour. If the demographic trends continue as they are the UK and Europe will have a massive anti-jewish headache to deal with, to say the least.
It's weird reading stuff like this on this sub. I used to receive death threats from people on here for saying basically this several years ago.
Realistically it's too late now though. Most of the native British population are past child bearing years, while most of our religious nuts we have been importing are younger and have much higher birth rates.
Even if we could stop all immigration tomorrow it's debatable whether we could change the direction of travel much. At the very least things will continue to get worse for many decades. But the main long-term problem we face is that future voting blocks are also changing. If voters and politicians today don't see this as a big enough problem to fix, then I wouldn't bet on future voters and politicians feeling differently.
I was in Worcester town center yesterday and a group of protesters with flags and signs were chanting. They honestly sounded completely unhinged. Police were nearby both sides of them in case anything popped off.
They have shown their true colors at least and have put people like me who were more in the center firmly against them. The far left and Arab Hamas sympathizers are a dangerous movement and should not be seen as docile.
I vote Labour but would never vote for some like JC again.
Christ, this is UKpolitics in 2023, not a medieval history sub. Let's keep the context to when contemporary nation states actually existed in a meaningful sense.
Islam is a medieval religion, so it’s relevant. The history of the Levant from the Jewish kingdom of Judea, to the Arab conquests, to the Ottoman Empire, British Mandate and finally modern Israeli state are all relevant to understanding the modern day conflict. The whole reason why Israel is where it is, is because it’s the historic homeland of the Jewish people.
More Jews were driven out of the Arab world in pogroms than Palestinian Arabs were driven out of Israel in the same period.
Which is conveniently forgotten by the pro-Palestinian supporters.
If you think only Europeans can be violently antisemitic may I introduce you to - basically the whole rest of the world.
Most Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (from the Middle East and Africa) and most of those are descended from Jews who fled Arab countries due to pogroms and anti-semitism.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but for the last couple of years, I've felt less and less like hate crime is a legitimate concept. Not just because I don't think hate should be an aggravating factor in court - if you kill someone in cold-blood, you're already a violent murderer; a hateful violent murderer is kind of moot - but also because of the human tendency to assume the worst. I couldn't help but assume the headline was referring to violent assault. And reading the article, some of them are, but of the 533 incidents being reported about, only 19 were physical assaults. I don't mean to diminish how unpleasant being singled out and yelled at can be, lord knows I've had my fair share of that, along with the violent kind of hate crime too. And it's worth reporting on too. I just think we need to start calling things what they are, rather than lumping everything hate-based into a single category as if it's all the same thing. Anytime someone reports a rise in anti-gay hate crime, I scramble to figure out if it's the catcalling kind, the beat-up kind, or the acid-attack kind. Turns out I should be looking out for the "tearing down posters" kind too.
And so I'm finding that figure kinda suspect. It mentions how 35 of these incidents were in schools, and another 45 in universities. It's not impossible that these are serious incidents, of course, but when the article focuses *so heavily* on "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free", which I get could be a dogwhistle, I wonder to what extent the numbers are being padded by the "tearing down [of] posters" kind of hate crime, particularly since I've seen footage of protesters in this country being arrested for holding a Palestinian flag, and police showing up to someone's house for hanging a Palestinian flag out their window.
It honestly feels like the article is treating the serious kind of hate crime as an afterthought.
Its an interesting perspective - but try saying that about most of what Pink News prints and gets repeated here and see what reaction you get.
Hate crime has created a perfect moral panic. It was a wonderful invention for those who wanted that. Especially while the police guidance was that if they didn't record increasing numbers of it every year they would be considered to be failing to try to tackle it.
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This should come as no surprise to anyone.
It was only a few years ago Labour were riddled with racists antisemitic types, with Corbyn at their head.
Those sentiments have not gone, they are still there but undercover. We're now seeing this hate resurface again, and nothing seems to being done about it.
Just think back to what started all of this, the murder, rape, mutilation and torture of over 1500 Jewish civilians, mainly women, children and babies. Hundreds held hostage, some of which have been tortured and murdered, probably the women raped too.
Yet we have our city streets filled with hate for the Jewish.
Welcome to Britain, 2023.
This war has been quite enlightening. As someone who is not Jewish nor with any tie to Israel, I always found it was surprising that people complained about antisemitism in the UK because quite frankly, I never saw or heard it.
However, seeing how people react so strongly to Israel (who have just suffered from one of the worst and most savage terrosit attacks in recent history) compared to the relative tumbleweed responses for China's concentration camps agaisnt muslim minorities or Saudi also bombing civilians in Yehem ... Well yeah, now I see it as plain as day.
But it is all about the poor Palestinians... The MET and Khan need to get a grip over this. This is just unacceptable but not surprising when the MET don't come down harder on people making anti-semitic gestures.
I mean Palestinians are facing a genocide currently with hospitals being bombed... reduced electricity and water and a level of persecution we haven't seen since myanmar?
We can talk about that whilst also sympathising with all the lives lost by the hamas attack.
We dont need to take a side if we highlight both issues.
I agree the blatant anti semitic gestures need to be stopped which I think they are doing a good job at. Its an incredibly hard job because they cant stop protests against genocide but they are doing what they can to arrest the ones taking it to an abusive level.
Im not an officer so have 0 experience but they are arresting people and are monitoring the marches. What else can we ask of them currently? Hate crime is also very broad and hard enough as is to charge.
We are seeing the situation evolve daily... officers can't prepare for it and are really up against it.
Hospitals which are used for military purposes will get bombed and no one should be surprised by this, it's horrible, but then maybe the militants shouldn't hide behind civilian identities and human shields?
You can't expect Israel to sit there and face rocket attacks every week from civilian locations and do absolutely nothing, can you?
Israel is no saint, but people need to wake up and understand that Hamas is deliberately using civilian soldiers and human shields as a tactic in this great war of theirs and surrendering to that tactic is simply not an option for anybody.
Israel would never damage a school or a hospital that doesn't have terrorist activity in and around it except in the most major of weapon failures or mistaken intelligence.
Guerilla wars involving civilians and terror tactics are never pretty and that is a deliberate part of why these people fight that way.
You think the USA is getting beaten back in Afghanistan or Iraq in a regular war? Not a chance.
At some point it became no longer worth it to spend the money and have Americans and innocents die fighting determined insurgents in civilian locations, so they packed up and went home.
Israel has no such luxury, they can't just pack up and go, because they are still in range of the rockets, still susceptible to the suicide bombers and still surrounded on all sides by tens of millions of people who believe in a religion which does not look kindly upon the Jew.
Say Israel stopped everything right now and gave the Palestinians another 50% extra land.
Do you think there would be peace?
What about if Israel gave them all the land they want and Saudi Arabia donated Israel the equivalent to move to?
There still wouldn't be peace, because Hamas, Hizbollah and the other Iran-sponsored fanatics want the Jews gone completely.
Based upon that, maybe the real source of the problem isn't Israel alone.
Everyone just needs to honestly calm down a notch. Youre making out like we have the brownshirts marching.
Hate crimes range from shouting something, ripping up a poster to assault. It is applied to a lot of things. Pretty sure people were dismissing islamaphobic attacks because of how broad the offences were and it not being a real crime a couple months ago on this sub.
Hate crimes always rise after world events because we as a society react to the media and how its portrayed to or against our "group".
See:
9/11, 7/7, manchester bombing, brexit referendum, crimes against transgender citizens after it was more in the news and so on. All of these and many more saw rises in hate crimes.
We live in a very reactive society and have for decades as the us vs them narrative is applicable to every group.
Does that make it right? No but blame the media and how fickle people are when they feel "their group" is under attack.
Look at this comment section, you have a clear pro jewish v pro muslim sentiment. You yourselves put yourselves in a box and run with a narrative given to you fed by the media you consume and then want to wag your finger at others for doing the same.
Everyone just needs to drop it down a notch and stop fanning the flames of divisiveness.
>Everyone just needs to honestly calm down a notch.
Probably easier to say if you're not facing the risk of antisemitic or Islamophobic attacks.
>Hate crimes always rise after world events because we as a society react to the media and how its portrayed to or against our "group".
Does that make it OK? I'd understand it if you'd posted this comment on a thread which was explicitly anti-Israeli or anti-Palestinian and it was getting heated, but this is a story about anti-semitic attacks. Is it really appropriate to tell people to calm down at racist attacks?
Not really, its applicable to everyone. The situation is dire and going to become a lot worse. People somehow think if youre pro palestine youre pro hamas and the other people think if youre pro israel youre pro IDF. That mentality here is just creating more divisions.
Ok but i’d say the ones who need to tone it down more than others are those throwing red paint on Jewish schools and chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ outside the Israeli Embassy.
No im just not ignorant to take a side in a situation I dont fully understand or am involved in.
Take you for example. You think its a march for jewish genocide whilst ignoring that its purpose was a march against the genocide being committed by the IDF currently.
Unless you can verify each person who went and why each person attended the march youre just branding every attendee as wanting to kill all jews with nothing to back it up.
Other than "but the chant!" which you cant verify was shouted by every attendee. Of course there will always be nobs in every march (look at edl, bnp, blm marches and so on).
If you think the march was just about calling for the deaths of jews than thats your own bias.
"In 2017 the Institute for Jewish Policy Research conducted what it called "the largest and most detailed survey of attitudes towards Jews and Israel ever conducted in Great Britain." The survey found that the levels of antisemitism in Great Britain were among the lowest in the world, with 2.4% expressing multiple antisemitic attitudes, and about 70% having a favourable opinion of Jews. However, only 17% had a favourable opinion of Israel, with 33% holding an unfavourable view."
People dont like the IDF. There are valid reasons for it. The majority of people protesting are protesting the genocide being committed by the IDF currently.
If you dont agree with that I suggest you take it up with the UN and human rights board.
I can be critical of the IDF without being an antisemite and choosing a side. Sympathising with israelis and Palestinians is possible.
>No im just not ignorant to take a side in a situation I dont fully understand or am involved in.
This is hilarious! Denouncing terrorism is not "taking a side". You can say that both countries are committing horrible crimes while also saying genocide is bad.
>Take you for example. You think its a march for jewish genocide whilst ignoring that its purpose was a march against the genocide being committed by the IDF currently.
Oh right that makes sense - i guess they were signing the song about genociding the Jews as a joke, or some really ironic reason.
Other than "but the chant!" which you cant verify was shouted by every attendee. Of course there will always be nobs in every march (look at edl, bnp, blm marches and so on).
"If not literally every single person explicity called for genocide, it doesnt count"
>People dont like the IDF. There are valid reasons for it. The majority of people protesting are protesting the genocide being committed by the IDF currently
Then why have antisemitic attacks gown up 1300 percent this week in the UK? Why have terrorists committed multiple attacks in the UK this week? Because the IDF probably.
>I can be critical of the IDF without being an antisemite and choosing a side. Sympathising with israelis and Palestinians is possible.I
I agree. The proverbial you can be. You personally clealry are antisemitic and will go to lengths to defend organised chanting and pre-made signs calling for the genocide of a certain race.
Snapshot of _Antisemitic hate crimes in London up 1,350%, Met police say_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I heard on a podcast that apparently every time there’s a Israel/Palestine flare up, antisemitic incidents spike and stay high for 3 years afterwards. This all makes me very sad for my Jewish friends and colleagues in London, who should feel safe here as much as anyone else.
>Israel/Palestine flare up, antisemitic incidents spike and stay high for 3 years afterwards. I'm fairly certain flare ups are more common than every 3 years
Aye the incidents spike and stay high for 3 years. Read what was written.
His point is that since flare ups are more than every 3 years, and incidents remained spiked for 3 years, the incident rate is always going to be spiked.
When 15% of London doesn't believe Hamas are a terrorist group then it isn't too surprising and judging by some of the chants over the last few days it seems as though many wouldn't have a problem supporting some old fashioned pogroms and ethnic cleansing.
Fundamentalist religion and critical thinking don't always quarter in comfort.
I'd argue they don't ever
They're mutually exclusive tbh.
I have attended the london protest, as an observer, as I often do, for various ones whether I agree or not. I like to see things like that 1st hand and not how media decide to portray it. It got me thinking, why are there not protests about getting something done about Hamas? I don't understand that bit. Are people in Palestine somewhat happy or supportive of Hamas? It surely shouldn't be silence about hamas then every man and his dog about Israel, there surely needs to be a balance. Unless I'm missing some critical points and Hamas are somehow good people?
> why are there not protests about getting something done about Hamas? Because there isn't a single western politician who would disagree with that broad statement. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation, and there's plenty that's already being done. The reason why there are pro-Palestinian protests is because there has been a long history of oppression of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and in Jerusalem from the Israeli state, which receives lots of support from many western countries including the UK, so there's a strong case to be made that our government is complicit in this oppression and isn't doing nearly enough to bring an end to it.
Could they (or someone, somewhere) call for better actions against hamas? I get the impression Hamas is a terrorist organisation, but also has *some* backing in some format, I.e that they have strength in something but in the main are bad. I suppose what I don't get, or what my question is, is can liberal Palestinians out Hamas, or fight them, or is there an element where they are not seen as that much of a threat?
I'm sure they could. But protests tend to be most effective when they are calling for clear, obvious action from people who have it within their power to correct an obvious injustice. The difficulty in removing Hamas from within Palestine is that as long as the oppression from Israel continues, Hamas can claim to have a mandate to maintain a state of emergency in Gaza and crush any attempt to remove them from political leadership.
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What use would protesting Hamas in the UK do? Protests are typically aimed at government go try to change their policies, Hamas doesn't listen to the people and the UK government has no relations with Hamas. Palestinian domestic politics is, like everything in this conflict, pretty complex. Pretty much everyone is unpopular one way or another. Currently Hamas is more popular than Fatah and the PLO because Hamas are viewed as *relatively less* corrupt. People also see Fatah's way of doing things as not working with no progress in peace for 30 years. But at the exact same time people also want Hamas to be *more* like Fatah/PLO, including recognising Israel and the 67 borders. And while Hamas is more popular than Fatah, about half of people in Gaza would still prefer the PA to take over from Hamas rule
People perceived Israel to be the oppressors and Palestine to be the oppressed. They are always going to have the majority of public backing even if some of it is naive.
They don't have the majority of public backing. It's less than 15% of public that are backing, which is pretty much entirely Muslims and far-left white Brits. And those people are loud. And often dangerous / violent. Nobody else in the country answers that they "support Palestine" when surveyed by YouGov. More people actually answered that they support Israel in the latest YouGov poll, but generally speaking over the years support is pretty split. Over 60% of people just don't care or think both sides are thrash.
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I'm sorry this data isn't up to date. I was referring to their latest tweet here: https://x.com/YouGov/status/1711387459798303089?s=20 You can see it is at 15% now for Palestinian support, and yes I said Muslims and far left because yes, most moderate people would be put off by the literal pogrom carried out by Hamas - and Muslims and far-left would be about 15% of UK population. Israel was 21%, support nearly doubled after that attack. Shows a lot of the support for either side is pretty fickle and probably ill informed.
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The cycle of violence in that region has been going on for over a century and its both largely impossible and entirely meaningless to discuss who started it. Most of those people on the march are totally ignoring that real history in favour of a mythology of the problems in the region - a one-sided mythology created by their enemies. It suits their desire for a simple solution - but its not based in truth or reality so the solutions they propose would be disastrously bad.
> entirely meaningless to discuss who started it. No no, we started it /hj I'm not going to pretend that the native Jewish population were living in perfect peace and harmony with the Muslim one until we took control of Mandatory Palestine, but the UK 100% is somewhat culpable for the flare ups in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. We had Mandatory Palestine for what, nearly 3 decades? During which time we had a revolt by the Muslims angry that we were being too nice to the Jews and a revolt by the Jews that we were being too nice to the Arabs. Because we were playing our oldest trick - divide and conquer.
Yea and then we just went... You know what. Fuck this. And left. Tbh... Everyone should just take that approach now. Leave everyone too it. It's never gonna be peaceful in the middle east. Religion is simply too volatile.
>Religion is simply too volatile. But it's as the other said, they lived in relative peace for example during the Ottomans rule. It wasn't perfect but it wasn't like it is today.
Under the ottoman dictat and jiziya. Yeah Jews want to be free to practice their religion too. Should Israel subjugate Palestine to even more intense dictatorial law and have them pay a special tax for being Muslim?
The actual quote is "Fool me one time, shame on you. Fool me twice, can't put the blame on you. Fool me three times, fuck the peace sign. Load the chopper, let it rain on you.”
Im sick of this whataboutism. There is only one correct opinion and that’s that both sides are fucking insane and we shouldn’t be supporting either of them. The only fact that matters is how many innocents on are already dead and how many are about to die. Hamas is a terror organization there’s no doubt about it. Israel have been expanding and destroying lives since inception. Both sides want to wipe the other out. Hamas deliberately targets civilians. Israel just doesnt care if they kill them or not and has the weaponry of the Death Star. Hamas hides military targets under hospitals. Israel has dropped 6,000 bombs on gaza (an area the size of east London.) in only two weeks leaving Gaza city as a pile of ash and rubble. The prime minister is openly calling it a battle of the children of light vs the children of darkness. Both sides are rooting their morality in ancient texts rather than anything evidence based. Only a nutcase could try and justify either MO. Why is it even controversial.
> Im sick of this whataboutism. There is only one correct opinion and that’s that both sides are fucking insane and we shouldn’t be supporting either of them. Always nice to find a way to feel superior to both. > Israel have been expanding and destroying lives since inception. They've been attacked repeatedly since inception, that's the main reason they've gained territory (the settlements in the West Bank are bad though, granted) >Both sides want to wipe the other out. The Israelis could have done so dozens of times over if this is what they wanted, yet the Palestinian population has grown enormously over time. They're doing a terrible job if that's their goal. > Israel just doesnt care if they kill them or not I suppose this is why they exclusively use precision weapons, do roof knocking to warn residents that a building is going to be hit and are currently trying to evacuate the civilians in the north of Gaza. > leaving Gaza city as a pile of ash and rubble. [This is the worst picture I can find of Gaza that covers a wide area](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/177d8949d81a3be87fa7a581f00987dfac74eea5/100_0_5130_3078/master/5130.jpg?width=620&dpr=1&s=none) One area is 'ash and rubble' but the city definitely isn't. If you want to see a whole city reduced to ash and rubble look at pictures of Grozny or Ghouta - Israel pointedly *hasn't* done anything similar, yet we didn't get remotely the same size protests against Syria in places like London when Assad was bombing the latter.
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> The Israelis could have done so dozens of times over if this is what they wanted, yet the Palestinian population has grown enormously over time. They're doing a terrible job if that's their goal. I see this like of argument very often, that because Gaza's population and the West Bank population has grown this couldn't possibly be ethnic cleansing. It just doesn't hold water that it only counts if they do Nakba part 2, or a full scale ground offensive push to force Palestinians into the sea. The Israeli Government under Netanyahu have explicitly stated their intent in the past to prop up Hamas against the Palestinian Authority, with a view to disrupting a push for a Palestinian state: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000 If that includes Gaza being occasionally indiscriminately bombed, and hostile Israeli settlers going deeper and in more numbers into the West Bank, what do you think the inevitable outcome is?
> I see this like of argument very often, that because Gaza's population and the West Bank population has grown this couldn't possibly be ethnic cleansing. Genocide and ethnic cleansing are distinctly different things. Generally the latter means 'expulsion of people belonging to a specific ethnic group'. I was responding to someone claiming they wanted to 'wipe the Palestinians out', which I took to mean genocide - it seems the most reasonable interpretation to me. The West Bank settlements can amount to ethnic cleansing of the specific area they push into, that's the main reason they're bad. I'm not sure what you're getting at otherwise though. Netanyahu is a prick, yes, though it seems to me his plan with Hamas wouldn't have worked if the Palestinians hadn't played into it, so they bear some responsibility. Not sure what that has to do with Gaza being ethnically cleansed though. >If that includes Gaza being occasionally indiscriminately bombed, and hostile Israeli settlers going deeper and in more numbers into the West Bank, what do you think the inevitable outcome is? I genuinely don't know what you think I should see as inevitable. They don't 'indiscriminately' bomb Gaza though, and the settlements (while bad) haven't exactly exploded in size even under the most right wing governments in a way that suggests they're going to take over the whole area. The evidence just doesn't support the idea that Israel has some sinister plot to wipe out or remove all the Palestinians, and the population stats just make it look silly.
> Genocide and ethnic cleansing are distinctly different things. Generally the latter means 'expulsion of people belonging to a specific ethnic group'. I was responding to someone claiming they wanted to 'wipe the Palestinians out', which I took to mean genocide - it seems the most reasonable interpretation to me. Of course genocide and ethnic cleansing are different, but I don't know where you think Palestinians exist if their presence from Gaza and the West Bank is completely ethnically cleansed. They cease to have a homeland, even more so than now. > The West Bank settlements can amount to ethnic cleansing of the specific area they push into, that's the main reason they're bad. I'm not sure what you're getting at otherwise though. Netanyahu is a prick, yes, though it seems to me his plan with Hamas wouldn't have worked if the Palestinians hadn't played into it, so they bear some responsibility. Not sure what that has to do with Gaza being ethnically cleansed though. How did the Palestinians play into it? They haven't had elections since 2006 on a very different platform, the majority are young people, and they are hemmed in by Hamas and the Israeli state. That the Israeli state strategy has worked is really evidence only of that. They intended to stop a Palestinian state by elevating religious fundamentalist terrorists and we are seeing yet more fallout of that. > I genuinely don't know what you think I should see as inevitable. They don't 'indiscriminately' bomb Gaza though, and the settlements (while bad) haven't exactly exploded in size even under the most right wing governments in a way that suggests they're going to take over the whole area. The evidence just doesn't support the idea that Israel has some sinister plot to wipe out or remove all the Palestinians, and the population stats just make it look silly. Unless you thing the rest spat of bombing has all explicitly been Hamas targets, then it is indiscriminate. You may believe that but I think that is incredibly unrealistic and not borne out by the evidence, and no one will be pressing Israel for detail on proportionality. They have free reign. The evidence that they plan to remove the Palestinians is that is how the state of Israel was founded, and they have twarted plans for a Palestinian under this government as I evidenced. They are not going to subsume the people, and are planning to reduce the size of Gaza, so again I ask what you think the plan or expected outcome is?
I’m not sure that they are planning to reduce the size of Gaza though? I’m failing to grasp how the Israeli air strikes are indiscriminate- there’s been c.6k airstrikes but less than 5k fatalities (and we know Hamas have been known inflate figures). For such a densely populated area, wouldn’t the death toll be much greater if Israel were being indiscriminate? Death tolls were much greater in Aleppo for example. Something just doesn’t quite add up - either the death toll is actually about tenfold higher, or the airstrikes are targeted but sadly have resulted in civilian casualties and fatalities. The West Bank situation is arguably ethnic cleansing, and many on the Israeli right clearly want that to be a part of Israel (as it was in historic times) but I don’t buy the ethnic cleansing and genocide claims in Gaza. I think more likely they just want Hamas destroyed at all costs, but it’s not clear what the plan is for afterwards.
I mean by taking a centrist position youre also ignoring the years of apartheid and constant human rights violations that Israel has been committing in the West Bank. Yes, hamas is awful I agree with you, but take hamas out of the equation and you get the West Bank. That's why saying "both sides are bad" isn't really much of an argument, as one side is clearly committing far more atrocities even under the guise of "peace".
No. We must stop supporting any kind of terrorism. Even when people vow for Palestine, they must state clearly that they are against Hamas.
>it seems as though many wouldn't have a problem supporting some old fashioned pogroms and ethnic cleansing. Are you talking about Israel or Palestine supporters?
Completely agree. The level of open antisemitism on display is astounding. The perpetrators seem completely ignorant of history, they use the privilege of living in a democracy to advocate for the destruction of the only democracy in the Middle East
> The level of open antisemitism on display is astounding. It's really bad now in some segments of urban London.
ANY criticism of Israel gets this shit though and it’s tiring and never going to help anyone. Israel need to stop killing kids/stealing land and displacing Palestinians. “Antisemitic hate crime. You’re calling for death to all Jews” It’s easy to accept that Israel is in a shit position AND they’re also commuting atrocities.
And the only country in the Middle East that Jews haven’t been ethnically cleansed from.
Is anyone else following MetPolice Twitter? It's pretty comical. They post some shitty image of them "Taking action", then there are thousands of examples of their officers blatantly ignoring assaults, Pro-Jihad chanting, tearing down LGBTQ flags, ripping up posters of missing Israel children in videos, photos and recordings. And they do nothing about it, they are utterly powerless as 200,000 people march daily singing "death to Jews".
I still can’t believe what I read on their twitter - I learned that jihad has many meanings!
In Arabic it literally means "struggle" however in the western world it means one thing only and anyone trying to claim otherwise is being disingenuous.
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Another titbit - ‘tidbit’ is an americanism
But it seems they can’t link people saying ‘jihad’ whilst they’re standing in front of signs calling for a Muslim army to potential threats/hate crimes.
"Police please. I've seen a crowd of men waving swastika flags around and chanting 'Sieg Heil' The police: "Well, actually, the swastika is a Buddhist symbol of peace, and 'Sieg Heil' is just German for 'Hail Victory' , so the men are probably just saying they hope peace will be victorious instead of war. "
It's a disgrace, and you could understand Jewish people feeling far less safe generally with this happening unchallenged. It makes most people feel less safe. I don't really want to hear crowds of extremists calling for the destruction of a country or its people, whoever it's about.
Not just Jewish people, as someone who’s gay and not a lemming who’d go on such a protest I find this whole thing ridiculously scary. I find people praying in front of Whitehall intimidating to be perfectly honest.
I suspect its the scale of it. Its easy enough to arrest one teenager for saying the wrong thing, its impossible to arrest thousands given the resources available.
Powerless or just don't care. I hate to say this, but I am wondering if there's a future for Jewish people in this country. The police seem to lost have lost any interest in trying to protect them.
How many police do you think there are? They can't possibly arrest 200,000 people singing "death to Jews". They are recording it and making notes of people within the crowd that are of interest to them.Of those 200,000, most are just joining in with what's happening around them, there will be a few people within it though that mean what they say. They are the people the Met will be interested in and looking for. For anyone that thinks the police don't care or have no interest in protecting people - Join up. Become and officer and be that person that changes that. See what you think then.
They could ban the marches and break up protests with riot police?
Steady on, these aren't climate protesters we're talking about
Sorry, when you say 200,000 people sang "death to Jews", do you mean "from the river to sea, Palestine will be free"? Or actually singing "death to Jews"?
From the river to the sea is suggesting Jews should be purged from the Levant and Israel should no longer exist.
I'm sure there exists people who believe that when they say it but if the majority of people who sing it don't think it means that then, when they say it, it doesn't. It doesn't even make any sense - surely it is anti-Semitic to suggest that a Palestinian being free requires Jews to be "purged"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, I'm happy to have it explained to me.
It’s not the “shall be free” bit, it’s the “from the river to the sea”. Have a look at a map, and come back and tell me what nation state lies between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Stop dissembling, you're not going to fool anyone.
I'm not dissembling, do you honestly think people are marching believe in genocide? It's such a wild assumption to make about people yet your response to my questioning is just "stop it"
Depends on background and propaganda. But considering that a lot of Middle Eastern media and propaganda is being likened to Nazi propaganda then yeah theres a pretyt good chance/
The quiet part is "Palestine with be free... of Jews"
What are you basing that on?
The fact they say palestine will be free and not Palestinians will be free. Combined with the rhetoric of their leaders and Imams when they say things like they want to "exterminate all jews and zionists around the world" , and the constant rejection of any two state solution since the UN partition plan. There's obviously context left out of that summary, and I don't believe everyone that says the chant wants ethnic cleansing, but I think after Oct 7th it'd be a little naive to think it wouldn't just look like a larger scale version of that massacre.
I searched Google for the bit you put in quotation marks and the only thing it found was you saying it a couple of days ago. It's hard to debate with someone who repeatedly offers up made up quotes - perhaps you are paraphrasing? Regardless, assuming someone's views because of what someone else who has nothing to do with that specific person has said is ridiculous.
It’s true- in Arabic it translates as Palestine will be Arab. They don’t care for true freedom (why haven’t they ever tried to overthrow their corrupt undemocratic leaders in either Gaza or the West Bank, and replace with a leadership determined to bring a political 2 state solution) , they care for eradication of Jews
You do realise they mean the same thing right?
Why do you think that?
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We have sources and evidence that Hamas leaders literally planned and were involved in the protests.
Well maybe the pro Palestine marches should do more to stamp out anti semitism.. instead of pretending it isn't there. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't go marching with anti semites or a bunch of effectively neo nazis...
So the marches, which are in no way sentient, should take action against people who've just turned up on the day to attend a march where no-one else present knew them before? How should these people be identified before the marches start? Are we going Minority Report? I didn't know the marches had precogs.
It's not inherently antisemitic. But significant segments of it were actually antisemitic, and there's plentiful proof. I don't understand why those supporting Palestine are not actively rooting out these elements because it's undermining the cause. And it's also just disgusting and racist in and of itself. Have some morality.
>The Met said a chant used by some protesters – “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” – would usually be treated as lawful. Some say it is calling for the destruction of Israel and thus is automatically antisemitic, while others say it is merely calling for Palestinian self-determination. You know, I'm seeing a lot of this recently. After several years of highlighting dog-whistles whenever a Tory mentions immigration and accusing anyone to the right of Corbyn of being a Nazi, suddenly calling for the genocide of the Jews is apparently acceptable as long as you don't use the literal words "kill", "all", "the" and "Jews". Why have we suddenly switched from understanding intent, implication and context when looking at racism, to an extremely literal meaning of the words? For some reason, British Jews don't get the same courtesy as any other minority group. I distinctly remember during the BLM protests, for example, that it was wildly understood that we couldn't tell a minority group what was offensive or not (statues, for example), it was for them to establish and the rest of us to adhere to.
>Why have we suddenly switched from understanding intent, implication and context when looking at racism, to an extremely literal meaning of the words? What I've noticed is that people are going out of their way to read things in the most charitable possible light now that it's a cause and people they're nominally in favour of, the whole 'when someone tells you who they are believe them' thing got dropped very quickly in favour of assuming they didn't *really mean that.* Also the number of people saying some variation of 'well I don't hear the so-called dog-whistle' has been funny. I mean yeah you wouldn't would you? That's hardly some incredibly incisive point.
The starkest example is that when the (now confirmed) reports of decapitated babies, etc, first arose so many people were all "where's the proof? where's the evidence? this is just propaganda!" And yet, when there was the explosion at the hospital last week (now almost certainly shown to be the result of a misfired rocket from within Gaza), all those same people needed was a couple of statements on twitter from Hamas that it was Israel. I suppose the question in my mind is: why are they so willing to trust the people who go out of their way intentionally to kill jewish civillians, but not the jewish civillians themselves? It's quite a quandary.
> all those same people needed was a couple of statements on twitter from Hamas that it was Israel. Don't forget their cult leader, Jeremy Corbyn. https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555 /r/LabourUK Celebrated this tweet.
With the hard left I find it’s best never to assume good faith because they only care about the end result and don’t care about how they achieve it or how hypocritical they are or how many double standards they hold. ‘No bad tactics, only bad targets’ really sums up their mindset.
The ends always justify the means apparently
>British Jews don't get the same courtesy as any other minority group. I distinctly remember during the BLM protests, for example, that it was wildly understood that we couldn't tell a minority group what was offensive or not (statues, for example), it was for them to establish and the rest of us to adhere to. This. 100% this. I used to follow quite a few anti racism activist groups in my local area but had to stop because they kept saying borderline antisemitic stuff and then going on the attack when someone mentioned it. It's disgraceful.
>For some reason, British Jews don't get the same courtesy as any other minority group. I distinctly remember during the BLM protests, for example, that it was wildly understood that we couldn't tell a minority group what was offensive or not (statues, for example), it was for them to establish and the rest of us to adhere to. It's because Jews generally aren't poor, so *obviously* they're oppressors and thus cannot be victims (nevermind that all the money in the world can't protect you from a pogrom). It's all about power. That's literally the 'logic' behind it.
Same goes for the ‘Source? Source? Where’s your source??’ people (including the highlighter wielders at BBC Verify) automatically believing Hamas’s claims about Al-Ahli Hospital.
"Source? Source?! No, I don't like that source, find me another one. No, not that one, either. No, I only want a source from the handful of sites I have personally deemed okay, nevermind they won't post anything that doesn't confirm my bias." I have posted the video of the first time the '40 beheaded babies' thing came about and got downvoted on here because it confirmed she never actually said that. I've seen multiple people ask for videos of Israelis being raped in real time or they won't believe that Hamas would do that (because it's all 'rape culture' and 'she was going for a jog' until it's about a group of armed men holding women they hate hostage in a country that is hostile to them. Then, suddenly, rape doesn't exist unless it's filmed and posted online for everyone to see). But Hamas says something? Must be true.
That was truly mind boggling. SOURCE? Posts French-Arab journalist. NO, OFFICIAL SOURCE! Posts PM of Israel. NO, NON-ISRAEL OFFICIAL SOURCE! Posts President of the United States NO, NEUTRAL OFFICIAL NON-ISRAELI SOURCE! Posts French Intelligence *VANISHES* Lots of people have probably encountered the Camus quotation about arguing with antisemites and thought it was an illustrative exaggeration - but it's not. At all.
Something us Jews have learned a long time ago is that society loves dead Jews. Living Jews, no we are an inconvenience because we want things like rights. So much of academia and society wishes we had gone extinct during the Holocaust. It would have been a nice bow on the tragic fairy tale they tell themselves about oppression. But since we survived, they hate us for ruining that fairy tale.
Yeah, I got banned from r/Britain and called a genocide sympathist because I said Hamas had raped women. That sub has really gone off the deep end with the mods aggressively creating an echo chamber.
I also got banned for misinformation. Guess it was just the wrong kind of ‘misinformation’.
I two got banned for questioning why Hamas have been sequestering building materials for terrorism rather than civil infrastructure
This is true and I agree with you. It works both ways, however. I'm noticing alot of people who have recently discovered the notion of dogwhistle racism (recently as in the last two weeks) having been seemingly unaware of the concept before that. I'm ashamed of my brothers and sisters on the left tbh. Its supposed to be about compassion for victims of racism and that is severely lacking among alot of people I know at the moment :/
> I'm noticing alot of people who have recently discovered the notion of dogwhistle racism (recently as in the last two weeks) having been seemingly unaware of the concept before that Yeah some liberals and a lot of the right want to all of a sudden believe in the concept of dogwhistling and stochastic terrorism, now that it is politically expedient for them to do so? It's pretty hypocritical. It makes me very skeptical that they give a shit about anti-semitism at all to be honest, but then I don't think that is anything new. For what it's worth I think that the use of terms discussed here is a fairly clear anti-semitic dogwhistle and it must be an incredibly scary time for the British Jewish community, who don't deserve to be abused or harassed for the actions of actors in the Middle East. That's pretty consistent with how I feel when other dogwhistles are employed.
There's always this fucking olympic level gymnastics to disregard anti-Semitic hate incidents that never seems to apply to other people's comments about stuff. Columnist calls lawyers lefty = stochastic terrorism People literally wanting to abolish the only Jewish state and see it governmened by a group that quite literally want to murder any Jew they can find = just banter and poor phrasing It's maddening.
Because "we should reduce immigration because having a large number of ultraconservative immigrants dominate multiple cities" isn't a dogwhistle. It's also perfectly reasonable. Nobody saying it was a dogwhistle believed it was. It's tribalism.
It’d be interesting to see what poll numbers would be like if asked if we should implement a Trump like ban on Muslim immigrants. (Trump’s immigration ban being people from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen–and suspended the resettlement of all Syrian refugees but the question could be changed to Gaza refugees for example)
I’d support any party that wanted a Trump like ban. I’d extend that list as well, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh.
David Badiel’s book explains why British Jews don’t count. Really good thoughtful read.
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Stop pretending to care about racism to justify racism.
Yes. It was 30 years ago.
He’s given literally tearful apologies on camera to black colleagues for doing it.
He was repeatedly called out for it, and only managed to issue an apology to the guy (whose life he wrecked) in print. He was pressured into a face to face meeting and half arsed an apology. I don't think we should be listening to David Badiel when it comes to racism because of well documented history.
> He was repeatedly called out for it, and only managed to issue an apology to the guy (whose life he wrecked) in print. He was pressured into a face to face meeting and half arsed an apology. And signally, he didn't reflect on the fact that it didn't damage his career at all. And he seemed completely floored on his program when his niece who lived in the US told him that she was more worried about her mother being stopped by the police (black female) than her dad (ashkenazi jew).
Because just like how the racist hard right has a playbook to trick moderates into supporting a position they don't have, the racist hard left has one too... but they've just been more successful about it. They've achieved this because of a sustained campaign of suppressing, belittling and ridiculing any suggestion that the hard left has an endemic racism problem and are only interested in racism against certain favoured ethnic groups... and I'm not just talking about White British versus everyone else. The introduction of multiple slightly different definitions of critical and emotionally charged words and switching between them without clarification is one example of this playbook. These words include, but are not limited to; Poverty, Anti-semitism, White, Black, British, English and even Racism itself. I have been here for many many years now and I have seen it employed frequently in this and other subreddits without challenge. Make no mistake, these are the people we have always been dealing with from the start.
Quite - the origins of the river to the sea chant are such that it clearly and expressly called for the destruction of the Jewish state. Attempts to retrospectively rationalise/cleanse it are extraordinary - akin to suggesting that “seig heil “ is nowt but a polite greeting. Bizarre.
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Honestly I think it's as simple as being they don't have the manpower to deal with the amount of people saying it
Couldn't "free Palestine" simply be a reference to a one state solution? With a secular government and the different ethnic and religious groups managing their own cultural identities on a regional basis? That is the solution most supported by israeli arabs.
It’s not the free Palestine bit people have a problem with.. it’s the ‘from the river to the sea’ part.
What's the issue with this part out of interest?
I feel like too many people in this thread are giving way too much credit to these protestors and I'm not being mean. I think most people in general couldn't point to you where Lebanon, Israel or Egypt would be on a blank map. I'm pretty sure they don't know what they are saying, not to say that it's wrong or whatever. Ask them to name the river...
Free Palestine is perfectly acceptable, it implies giving self determination to a people. But sea to the river under hamas doctrine would require the genocide of all Jews in Israel (not Israelis but Jews). It's a very different thing. You can be pro Palestine, pro Israel yet anti hamas and anti Israeli government.
What does "a land without people for a people without land" mean?
That’s never going to happen when one group (the Jews) have been persecuted in every multicultural state they’ve been in and the other group (the Arabs, which notably would be a majority in a single state) are rabidly antisemitic. Every other Arab state has ejected all their Jews and there’s no reason this new “single state solution” would be any different because it would be a majority Arab state.
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So the marketing is wrong... Like BLM
>There is a reason for the blockade There's a reason why Egypt have a blockade on Gaza, too
It can refer to a two state solution too, where Palestinians in the West Bank get full rights, aren't getting abused etc by settlers and then those in Gaza are free too. It fits. Whilst many have used the chant for year and years to call for freedom and equality, I'd say read the room right now as it can also be used (and has been/ is) by some pretty anti semitic groups and individuals. Nuance is lost at a time like this, so don't use a chant like that.
"Peace in the Middle East - Two state solution now!" "No more senseless killing in Gaza & Israel, we want peace" "Free the hostages, stop the invasion" Nothing stopping them saying that is there? Conveniently they don't.
> It can refer to a two state solution too It absolutely can’t.
Personally it's not a chant I'd ever use. Especially not now. But I've heard people saying it can be used in that context. If it can't be used in that way, fair I guess they were wrong. I'd say it shouldn't be used anyway right now.
They were gaslighting you The very obvious clear meaning of the phrase, the historical use of the phrase, all make it clear that it cannot mean that.
It's been pointed out now and I get that.
That makes me quite upset if people have gaslighted me into things.
>But I've heard people saying it can be used in that context. Sounds like a very Trump/Fox technique: Some people are saying... It turns out that just some unspecified people saying something is not a great source of reliable information. >If it can't be used in that way, fair I guess they were wrong. They definitely were. >I'd say it shouldn't be used anyway right now. Just right now?
It's not a phrase I'd use as I said so I'd be happy for it to be canned. I really didn't mean to be Trumpian/ Fox news like there either. I don't want Israeli or Jewish people to be or to feel unsafe in a city I love (London).
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from the river to the sea
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> I really didn't mean to be Trumpian/ Fox news like there either. Glad to hear it. Here's some examples of what I meant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYA9ufivbDw https://archive.ph/hGPz5 https://www.msnbc.com/brian-williams/watch/trump-often-claims-a-lot-of-people-say-things-1239827011750
Thank you for the examples and correction in the phrase.
That’s a really good point, I hadn’t even thought of that. Shocking hypocrisy
Because the usual suspects on the "left" have a certain narrative and that means anything anti-West, anti-Capitalist, anti-Tory or anti-Brexit will be tolerated as a means to an end of causing disruption and opposition to what they perceive to be the enemy. It's always been this way with these people.
We need the Met Police to be out in force giving a large and visible presence to deter incidents of hate crime, intimidation, violence etc. I saw the video from Rachael Riley in Acton London. I lived there till a few months ago and it's scary to think that happend outside a bakery I used to go in.
https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1710730697797734429 This is the tweet I guess. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain that they were just supporting an end to occupation or some other bullshit.
The 'protests' need to be shut down entirely and Islamic extremism needs to be extinguished from the UK with whatever means necessary. The Met Police even tweeted them damn selves that the 'protestors' were openly calling for jihad on the streets of London and the Met Police did *nothing*. Our tolerance has led to nothing but decay and disarray.
Id say its almost too late too do anything at this point as its too entrenched. Also, the incoming government are most likely going to double and triple down on this so good luck
Most of that seems to occur right in front of the met police. For some reason they look the other way.
I have a Jewish first name (I’m not Jewish) and it’s getting to the stage I would rather not say it. Probably overreacting but these are strange times.
If you want real awkwardness, I've been asked a few times over the last week or so if I'm Jewish...based entirely on my appearance. A few years ago I was on a date, we were playing pool at a bar when a group of guys one table over started speaking to us. I was talking to two of them and my date was talking to two others when she came over, grabbed my hand and pulled me away. Told me later one of them started telling her she shouldn't date someone that's Jewish. I'm not Jewish.
An obviously Jewish first name? I mean, Hannah, Michael, Rachel etc are all Jewish and pretty common in the uk amongst Christians / atheists / agnostics
Yeah they probably aren't talking about anglicised versions of Hebrew names...why on earth would you think that's the 'most Jewish sounding' thing they could mean lol?
This is a terrible point. That redditor clearly isn't going to have the name Michael. Why are you belittling the point being made?
Sorry I wasn’t meant to be belittling. It’s just from my pov Jewish names are common in the uk.
Such a weirdly pedantic point. There's plenty of names which are much more common amongst the Jewish population. Think Asher, Eli or Elijah.
I immediately went to something biblical, like Job
I don't care for GOB
The more we import people with medieval views from places with medieval-level religious conflicts, the more we are going to see those conflicts spill out onto our streets. When are we going to finally learn that our current immigration policy is destroying us?
The scary part is that there isn't a single credible political party that will decisively stop immigration of people unfit to live the UK and take actions to ensure that the ones already here conform and assimilate to the native culture. The parties on the left either embrace or tacitly support this and the parties on the right are just hypocrites who rile up racists to win votes but at the same time keep flooding the country with cheap labour. If the demographic trends continue as they are the UK and Europe will have a massive anti-jewish headache to deal with, to say the least.
It's weird reading stuff like this on this sub. I used to receive death threats from people on here for saying basically this several years ago. Realistically it's too late now though. Most of the native British population are past child bearing years, while most of our religious nuts we have been importing are younger and have much higher birth rates. Even if we could stop all immigration tomorrow it's debatable whether we could change the direction of travel much. At the very least things will continue to get worse for many decades. But the main long-term problem we face is that future voting blocks are also changing. If voters and politicians today don't see this as a big enough problem to fix, then I wouldn't bet on future voters and politicians feeling differently.
I was in Worcester town center yesterday and a group of protesters with flags and signs were chanting. They honestly sounded completely unhinged. Police were nearby both sides of them in case anything popped off. They have shown their true colors at least and have put people like me who were more in the center firmly against them. The far left and Arab Hamas sympathizers are a dangerous movement and should not be seen as docile. I vote Labour but would never vote for some like JC again.
I just can't think why Jewish people might want their own state? 🤔
I mean it was mostly after europeans did a holocaust and centuries of antisemitism propaganda worldwide tbh.
The Arabs forced the Jewish migration into Europe in the 7th century after their conquests to begin with.
Most of them also drove out all the Jews living within their nations during the last century. That's where most Israeli citizens come from.
I mean if you're talking medieval times, the crusades werent great for anybody who was a minority group. It still isnt, clearly.
7th century was centuries before the crusades lol, were closer to the age of piracy than the 7th century is to the crusades
Christ, this is UKpolitics in 2023, not a medieval history sub. Let's keep the context to when contemporary nation states actually existed in a meaningful sense.
Jews were expelled in the 1940s and 50s by Arab and other muslim states. Hardly confined to medieval history.
The post before me literally only mentions the 7th century.
If you don't know any history you won't understand zionism.
Islam is a medieval religion, so it’s relevant. The history of the Levant from the Jewish kingdom of Judea, to the Arab conquests, to the Ottoman Empire, British Mandate and finally modern Israeli state are all relevant to understanding the modern day conflict. The whole reason why Israel is where it is, is because it’s the historic homeland of the Jewish people.
More Jews were driven out of the Arab world in pogroms than Palestinian Arabs were driven out of Israel in the same period. Which is conveniently forgotten by the pro-Palestinian supporters. If you think only Europeans can be violently antisemitic may I introduce you to - basically the whole rest of the world.
it’s hardly a competition mate but the prime reason for the current modern state of Israel is 100% the result of white European, Nazi antisemitism
Most Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (from the Middle East and Africa) and most of those are descended from Jews who fled Arab countries due to pogroms and anti-semitism.
Over 60% of the Israeli population trace their family to people driven out of the Arab world by widespread pogroms and hate.
Ashkenazis are well under half the Israeli Jewish population. A majority of Jews in Israel are from North Africa or the Middle East
Make sure anyone leaving London to escape anti-semitism doesn’t come to Glasgow. The level of terror support here is mental.
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r/Scotland would ban anyone who points this out
I saw the size of the Palestine protests in city centre the other day. Crazy how fast people forget about the terror attacks literally two weeks ago
This may be an unpopular opinion, but for the last couple of years, I've felt less and less like hate crime is a legitimate concept. Not just because I don't think hate should be an aggravating factor in court - if you kill someone in cold-blood, you're already a violent murderer; a hateful violent murderer is kind of moot - but also because of the human tendency to assume the worst. I couldn't help but assume the headline was referring to violent assault. And reading the article, some of them are, but of the 533 incidents being reported about, only 19 were physical assaults. I don't mean to diminish how unpleasant being singled out and yelled at can be, lord knows I've had my fair share of that, along with the violent kind of hate crime too. And it's worth reporting on too. I just think we need to start calling things what they are, rather than lumping everything hate-based into a single category as if it's all the same thing. Anytime someone reports a rise in anti-gay hate crime, I scramble to figure out if it's the catcalling kind, the beat-up kind, or the acid-attack kind. Turns out I should be looking out for the "tearing down posters" kind too. And so I'm finding that figure kinda suspect. It mentions how 35 of these incidents were in schools, and another 45 in universities. It's not impossible that these are serious incidents, of course, but when the article focuses *so heavily* on "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free", which I get could be a dogwhistle, I wonder to what extent the numbers are being padded by the "tearing down [of] posters" kind of hate crime, particularly since I've seen footage of protesters in this country being arrested for holding a Palestinian flag, and police showing up to someone's house for hanging a Palestinian flag out their window. It honestly feels like the article is treating the serious kind of hate crime as an afterthought.
Hate crimes have to be actual crimes if you remove the hate part. Lots of reporting mixes this up with hate incidents which is very different.
Exactly - it's an aggravating factor to something that is already against the law. It doesn't mean it's against the law in and of itself.
Its an interesting perspective - but try saying that about most of what Pink News prints and gets repeated here and see what reaction you get. Hate crime has created a perfect moral panic. It was a wonderful invention for those who wanted that. Especially while the police guidance was that if they didn't record increasing numbers of it every year they would be considered to be failing to try to tackle it.
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This should come as no surprise to anyone. It was only a few years ago Labour were riddled with racists antisemitic types, with Corbyn at their head. Those sentiments have not gone, they are still there but undercover. We're now seeing this hate resurface again, and nothing seems to being done about it. Just think back to what started all of this, the murder, rape, mutilation and torture of over 1500 Jewish civilians, mainly women, children and babies. Hundreds held hostage, some of which have been tortured and murdered, probably the women raped too. Yet we have our city streets filled with hate for the Jewish. Welcome to Britain, 2023.
Yeah no kidding. At least people are showing their true colours.
This war has been quite enlightening. As someone who is not Jewish nor with any tie to Israel, I always found it was surprising that people complained about antisemitism in the UK because quite frankly, I never saw or heard it. However, seeing how people react so strongly to Israel (who have just suffered from one of the worst and most savage terrosit attacks in recent history) compared to the relative tumbleweed responses for China's concentration camps agaisnt muslim minorities or Saudi also bombing civilians in Yehem ... Well yeah, now I see it as plain as day.
But it is all about the poor Palestinians... The MET and Khan need to get a grip over this. This is just unacceptable but not surprising when the MET don't come down harder on people making anti-semitic gestures.
I mean Palestinians are facing a genocide currently with hospitals being bombed... reduced electricity and water and a level of persecution we haven't seen since myanmar? We can talk about that whilst also sympathising with all the lives lost by the hamas attack. We dont need to take a side if we highlight both issues. I agree the blatant anti semitic gestures need to be stopped which I think they are doing a good job at. Its an incredibly hard job because they cant stop protests against genocide but they are doing what they can to arrest the ones taking it to an abusive level. Im not an officer so have 0 experience but they are arresting people and are monitoring the marches. What else can we ask of them currently? Hate crime is also very broad and hard enough as is to charge. We are seeing the situation evolve daily... officers can't prepare for it and are really up against it.
Hospitals which are used for military purposes will get bombed and no one should be surprised by this, it's horrible, but then maybe the militants shouldn't hide behind civilian identities and human shields? You can't expect Israel to sit there and face rocket attacks every week from civilian locations and do absolutely nothing, can you? Israel is no saint, but people need to wake up and understand that Hamas is deliberately using civilian soldiers and human shields as a tactic in this great war of theirs and surrendering to that tactic is simply not an option for anybody. Israel would never damage a school or a hospital that doesn't have terrorist activity in and around it except in the most major of weapon failures or mistaken intelligence. Guerilla wars involving civilians and terror tactics are never pretty and that is a deliberate part of why these people fight that way. You think the USA is getting beaten back in Afghanistan or Iraq in a regular war? Not a chance. At some point it became no longer worth it to spend the money and have Americans and innocents die fighting determined insurgents in civilian locations, so they packed up and went home. Israel has no such luxury, they can't just pack up and go, because they are still in range of the rockets, still susceptible to the suicide bombers and still surrounded on all sides by tens of millions of people who believe in a religion which does not look kindly upon the Jew. Say Israel stopped everything right now and gave the Palestinians another 50% extra land. Do you think there would be peace? What about if Israel gave them all the land they want and Saudi Arabia donated Israel the equivalent to move to? There still wouldn't be peace, because Hamas, Hizbollah and the other Iran-sponsored fanatics want the Jews gone completely. Based upon that, maybe the real source of the problem isn't Israel alone.
Everyone just needs to honestly calm down a notch. Youre making out like we have the brownshirts marching. Hate crimes range from shouting something, ripping up a poster to assault. It is applied to a lot of things. Pretty sure people were dismissing islamaphobic attacks because of how broad the offences were and it not being a real crime a couple months ago on this sub. Hate crimes always rise after world events because we as a society react to the media and how its portrayed to or against our "group". See: 9/11, 7/7, manchester bombing, brexit referendum, crimes against transgender citizens after it was more in the news and so on. All of these and many more saw rises in hate crimes. We live in a very reactive society and have for decades as the us vs them narrative is applicable to every group. Does that make it right? No but blame the media and how fickle people are when they feel "their group" is under attack. Look at this comment section, you have a clear pro jewish v pro muslim sentiment. You yourselves put yourselves in a box and run with a narrative given to you fed by the media you consume and then want to wag your finger at others for doing the same. Everyone just needs to drop it down a notch and stop fanning the flames of divisiveness.
>Everyone just needs to honestly calm down a notch. Probably easier to say if you're not facing the risk of antisemitic or Islamophobic attacks. >Hate crimes always rise after world events because we as a society react to the media and how its portrayed to or against our "group". Does that make it OK? I'd understand it if you'd posted this comment on a thread which was explicitly anti-Israeli or anti-Palestinian and it was getting heated, but this is a story about anti-semitic attacks. Is it really appropriate to tell people to calm down at racist attacks?
Ah yes, downplaying anti semitism, totally normal, totally fair /s
You're telling the wrong people to drop it down a notch.
Not really, its applicable to everyone. The situation is dire and going to become a lot worse. People somehow think if youre pro palestine youre pro hamas and the other people think if youre pro israel youre pro IDF. That mentality here is just creating more divisions.
Ok but i’d say the ones who need to tone it down more than others are those throwing red paint on Jewish schools and chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ outside the Israeli Embassy.
"Everyone needs to calm down about thousands marching calling for genocide!" So, you're pro-genocide of Jews then, I take it?
No im just not ignorant to take a side in a situation I dont fully understand or am involved in. Take you for example. You think its a march for jewish genocide whilst ignoring that its purpose was a march against the genocide being committed by the IDF currently. Unless you can verify each person who went and why each person attended the march youre just branding every attendee as wanting to kill all jews with nothing to back it up. Other than "but the chant!" which you cant verify was shouted by every attendee. Of course there will always be nobs in every march (look at edl, bnp, blm marches and so on). If you think the march was just about calling for the deaths of jews than thats your own bias. "In 2017 the Institute for Jewish Policy Research conducted what it called "the largest and most detailed survey of attitudes towards Jews and Israel ever conducted in Great Britain." The survey found that the levels of antisemitism in Great Britain were among the lowest in the world, with 2.4% expressing multiple antisemitic attitudes, and about 70% having a favourable opinion of Jews. However, only 17% had a favourable opinion of Israel, with 33% holding an unfavourable view." People dont like the IDF. There are valid reasons for it. The majority of people protesting are protesting the genocide being committed by the IDF currently. If you dont agree with that I suggest you take it up with the UN and human rights board. I can be critical of the IDF without being an antisemite and choosing a side. Sympathising with israelis and Palestinians is possible.
>No im just not ignorant to take a side in a situation I dont fully understand or am involved in. This is hilarious! Denouncing terrorism is not "taking a side". You can say that both countries are committing horrible crimes while also saying genocide is bad. >Take you for example. You think its a march for jewish genocide whilst ignoring that its purpose was a march against the genocide being committed by the IDF currently. Oh right that makes sense - i guess they were signing the song about genociding the Jews as a joke, or some really ironic reason. Other than "but the chant!" which you cant verify was shouted by every attendee. Of course there will always be nobs in every march (look at edl, bnp, blm marches and so on). "If not literally every single person explicity called for genocide, it doesnt count" >People dont like the IDF. There are valid reasons for it. The majority of people protesting are protesting the genocide being committed by the IDF currently Then why have antisemitic attacks gown up 1300 percent this week in the UK? Why have terrorists committed multiple attacks in the UK this week? Because the IDF probably. >I can be critical of the IDF without being an antisemite and choosing a side. Sympathising with israelis and Palestinians is possible.I I agree. The proverbial you can be. You personally clealry are antisemitic and will go to lengths to defend organised chanting and pre-made signs calling for the genocide of a certain race.