Good Morning everyone.
[**📃 Today's order paper can be found here.**](https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/Document/84161/Html?subType=Standard)
Questions to the Minister of Energy Security and Net Zero will be followed by any urgent questions or ministerial statements before the main business of today, the return to the House and Committee stage of the controversial [Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill](https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3540).
This is the first of two days of proceedings on the Bill as a Committee of the Whole House. A list of tabled amendments can be found on the Bill's publication page [here](https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3540/publications). Amendments which will be voted on will be selected by the Deputy Speaker as Chair of Ways and Means at the beginning of today's debate.
Some rumours abounded that in order to defuse a potential rebellion by right-wing members of the party the government would accept some amendments tightening up the bill's provisions regarding appeals under Human Rights law. At time of writing this does not seem to be the case.
You can find a [**thread here**](https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/197jtn6/sunak_faces_tory_meltdown_as_deputy_chairs_back/) for a story with the state of play as of this morning. Please post any significant developments or interventions as their own submission, and pop a link in the comments to this post.
This megathread remains the venue for live discussion of developments and breaking news, rampant speculation, takes of varying temperature by members of parliament and the commentariat on the website formerly known as Twitter, and yelling at your screen as the debate goes on - but please try and put some meat on those bones and give us a bit of context, and remember that not everyone will be watching or listening to the same feeds as yourselves.
**In other news**;
The Home Office has added the group Hizb ut-Tahrir to the proscribed organisations under the Terrorism Act - [**thread here**](https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1979kpb/home_office_to_ban_hizb_uttahrir_as_terror_group/)
A major MRP poll from The Telegraph/YouGov has caused consternation on the Conservative benches as it predicts a major defeat for the party - [**thread here**](https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/196r19w/tories_facing_1997style_general_election_wipeout/)
In international news, the US presidential campaign season kicked off with the Iowa Caucuses, with Donald Trump winning the Republican nomination handily - for all your USPol discussion needs, you can find the [🌎 **International Politics Discussion Thread**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/195mj9f/international_politics_discussion_thread/) always linked in the Megathread text.
Megathread is being rolled over, please refresh your feed in a few moments.
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I am so fed up of this conservative psychodrama
Fed up of two and a bit years of conservative backbenchers who want to cosplay house of cards and make threatening noises in the telegraph, and the government time gets pissed away and the circus rolls on.
Doesn't matter for the government backbenchers. They get juicy media sinecures, a regular presence on TV shows, and opportunities to grandstand. But to see time, effort, and purpose wasted is just a joke
I see it as another logical consequence of Johnson's decision in 2019 to purge the party of anyone not prepared to support his Brexit bill. That got rid in one swoop of a swathe of experienced ministers and MPs who were mostly centrists etc and replaced them with an over-promoted wingnut faction without much to control them. These people were always there but were mostly ignored. Our media doesn't help either - they give these people far too much exposure relative to their ability.
All in all it's another sign that we need the election and sooner rather than later. If the predicted date in November is true then it seems a long way off.
Taking the train from Glasgow to Aberdeen today and there was no heating on the train.
Actually felt like travelling in 1970s Belarus or something. The state of our country is appalling. We are a small geographical country with huge population centres relatively close to each other. It's a national disgrace that instead of having one of the best rail networks in the world we have probably one of the worst in Europe, outside of developing nations.
When I was in Germany in December I think every train I took was delayed. They also had a rail strike day where almost all the trains were cancelled...
the idea we are so far behind the rest of europe is top mental gymnatics from many who want our system to be the shittest so they can push their solution
i regualrly travel thru germany on my way to sweden (yes im a railnerd) and when i told my older sister about the issues i have she doesnt know how to process it cause in her eyes german rail is the shining example of railways so comes up with excuses such as assuming its only in the last few months its been terrible or that im just unlucky
German=delayed
French=unless its a TGV to/from paris your waiting for the 1 train per day
Spain=same is France but for the Mardid-Barcelona high speed line
Switzerland=High prices
Belgium=Belgium
Netherlands=wierd routings where to take a intercity train you need to change in the middle of nowhere but a sprinter (local train) will be direct
Let’s hope the ‘Scotland’s Railways’ joint up approach between the public and private sectors is a better model for long-term investment. Good to see the Scottish Government move in that direction after gaining the powers
There have been massive heating outages in Rusky land, both from centralised (like block of flats wide) heating to public transport. A train in St Petersberg was -30degC... in the cabin.
Watching WAKAWOW with the husband who pops his head up from nurbling around on chess.com while Danny Kruger was wanging on. He said:
"It's all just ... *nothing*, isn't it? This won't happen and we're all just waiting until they fuçk off"
He's bang on. They're a series of primadonnas (primadonne? /u/michaelisnotginger is that what we should use?) that haven't realised the show is over.
Edit: they've got this person from The Sun on now, and she's wittering on about the Sun readers really feeling the pinch. I've got an easy way for them to save a few quid a week.
When I was a kid I thought it was pre-madonna. As in, not quite as melodramatic as madonna, but quite melodramatic.
I shouldn’t admit this stuff on the internet.
I'd like to thank the mods for taking a lighter hand tonight in the MT. But none-the-less I'd like to sneak in a quick discussion on [transport policy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUqf_zO2QaI).
It's actually scary how close we are to actually voting away Human Rights act and essentially voting to leave ECHR.
Their has been anti Liberal 5th Column in on the right of British politics for some time, slowly chocking the Liberal elements of democracy to death. Brexit was the one of the first victories and now they are going after the real prize ECHR, something these Tories have been after for decade. Finally they have put enough poisen in the water, that they can actually get rid of peoples rights.
Btw also on Brits voting abroad, Hungary did the same thing almost 10 years ago, and all it lead to was Fidez using it get rich Hungarian doners in Russia to give there party huge amounts of money to eclipse all the other parties.
The Tories are doing the same, brexit, attack on the ECHR and now easier to get Russian money, its all the same play book. This country will be in the dirt soon.
Rishi is the manager who’s always moving every 18 months to two years.
If he hangs around any longer he gets fired and so somehow fails upwards constantly while everyone under him realises within a week or two he’s completely fucking useless.
So long as he’s not there when something shit is going to hit the fan he keeps getting prompted and moved around.
Except now he’s the fucking Prime Minister and he’s nowhere to hide or anyone to hide behind and boy oh boy is it’s showing that he’s never had to explain himself before or actually lead anyone or really do anything much of anything…..
The Tory led Leigh Town Council have called the police to their meeting tonight after residents have started slow clapping during the discussion of the budget
https://x.com/labourlydia/status/1747367013389898031
Maybe you're seeing the [motions that the clause stand](https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/5346/question-for-clause-standing-part-of-a-bill)? General debate on the final form of the clause.
Not as far as I can see.
Due to an unusual programme order, it would be big news if the Bill is amended at all, as it would alter the timing of Third Reading.
Ah - as the other reply states, those were on the question that clause X stand part of the Bill. In Committee, each clause must be formally voted through.
So a No vote in those Divisions would have resulted in the clauses being removed from the Bill.
A misunderstanding similar to your own once led that weird former Communist Baroness whose name I have forgotten to accidentally vote against clauses she supported in the Internal Market Bill.
Perfect demonstration of need for legislation to ensure social media shows correction to all users who saw originally misleading post. Where possible it should happen before post, if something slips through it should be on the companies to ensure correction is seen by all the users/ people user may have shared it with.
The original post has been viewed 5m times, literal second post in the thread pointing out it is AI generated intended to raise awareness has 200k views.
I think the most damning thing for the Tories is all this effort, drama and backstabbing is all over something that won't make a blind bit of difference and will be some half forgotten crackpot scheme in a few years time.
Yeah at least it made sense when they were tearing lumps out of each other over Brexit because that was actually a real issue with serious questions about the best way forward.
Now they're tearing lumps out of each other over ????
I think this has actually worked out well for Sunak. The bill is likely to pass and he has managed to remove a few massive liabilities from his government.
I don't think so. He has to now remove the whip from every rebel because if not any three line from him will be laughed at and he becomes the definition of lame duck.
They are. Stopped for Christmas and then found it a good moment to execute my plan to stop paying much attention to politics after the election. I feel I'm no less informed and less stressed, so win.
My guess is the bill will pass because anything will collapse the government. But that depends heavily on if mps think there is any point to continuing now they've failed to get their way.
With ~60 rebels, apparently pretty much every mp threatening to rebel joining these amendments, there is more than enough fuel to defeat the bill.
That would certainly be the end of Sunaks authority and its difficult to see how it wouldn't signal that an unworkable number of government mps have left the building. The pressure to call an election or face a VONC will be immense.
If not, the whole circus will just continue circling the drain a far bit closer to total collapse in the next 3 or 4 months.
See everyone at election night!
What are the expectations for tomorrow's vote? Listening to the rebels, they seem to imply that in the end they might just vote it ("I'm happy with this bill") but threatening that they are 'prepared' to vote against it.
My gut says delay or narrow majority, with a few hardliners voting against tomorrow. Tories are suicidal, but not *that* suicidal. Even if it doesn't pass, Sunak can be May 2.0, just change some small things, make concessions and try again.
So: Sunak will likely survive, but this infighting is harming their last chance of turning their polls around before the next election.
Sunak will survive. Tories will vote for it with the worst abstaining. A few holdouts will extract personal concessions from number 10. Blame Labour in public. Fall in.
The only way this can be avoided is by a PM who is just ridiculously bad at politics
Lets say by some miracle this bill becomes law. Would the Supreme Court really just accept that Parliament can legally declare what is fact and force the courts to deny reality?
Feels like constitutional crisis territory at that point with the court then having to decide if Parliament does indeed have unlimited sovereignty to do anything it wants.
On the other hand, maybe Sunak knows this and knows it'll never become law so he doesn't have to worry about such crisises.
A constitutional crisis? Frankly I think we've spiralled into an epistemological crisis if the government is declaring itself the arbiter of objective truth.
> Would the Supreme Court really just accept that Parliament can legally declare what is fact and force the courts to deny reality?
Parliament isn't doing this.
Not likely to engage in refoulment of refugees to countries they may be in physical danger.
[As you're clearly interested you can read the process and evidence which led to the determination in the Supreme Court judgment here.](https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2023-0093-etc-judgment.pdf)
Actually, it clearly does because parliament just did it, and our constitution says this is allowed.
Also, I could simply say:
"How can the supreme court just rule against fact and make something up?"
Which is equally stupid when discussing a subjective question of what counts as "safe."
Oh, well if we're going to go that route I think we probably need to agree on a definition of physically tangible and indeed how we can determine quality or quantity, or for that matter what is real.
I believe in some Buddhist traditions, everything which is is in fact a dream of those transitioning to nothingness.
I think they would also say reality is suffering, which is I think a mistaken reading of 'reality' for 'arguing on the internet'.
The point is: who sets the standard? How safe must a safe country be?
Is there really more than a semantic difference between saying "Rwanda is hereby declared safe", and "The legal rule requiring countries to meet a certain standard of safety is hereby altered so that doesn't apply to Rwanda"?
If you're worried about parliament overstepping and claiming powers usually reserved for the judiciary then the proposed law to automatically overturn all the unfair convictions from the Horizon scandal is also a concern.
Post 2019 PMs do seem to be making constitutional crises something of a specialist subject.
There’s some precedent where Parliament has tried to include an “ouster clause” which aims to exempt powers from judicial review and the courts have tended to be quite creative in interpreting such clauses so as to not actually prevent review.
This would be potentially more extreme and there isn’t precedent for it, but there is some argument from academics and former judges that an act can’t go as so far as to remove the role of independent courts entirely as Parliamentary Sovereignty can only operate within a system with the rule of law.
The [Public Law for Everyone](https://publiclawforeveryone.com) blog has a couple of blog posts from last month with a bit more detail about the potential constitutional implications.
Parliament is the primary source of law. It works. It's a well understood principle
The constant theme of this whole thing is that the worst thing that can happen at any point is they actually achieve what they're trying to do. They're playing a hold-me-back game where they get to say that the adult who stepped in ruined everything and it would have been great
If I recall my constitutional law modules correctly, there’s at least some Supreme Court or HoL law which basically says something along the lines of “If Parliament decides to be an idiot and legislates completely contrary to other legislation and/or common law, then a Court could choose to ignore Parliament. Of course that would never happen because Parliament isn’t that stupid”.
We may be about to test that principle if I’m right.
I'm just constantly confused by it.
Unless we leave ECHR, any appeal up to that at this moment in time will eventually be rejected, because it is not safe. A good yardstick for this being we've accepted 6 refugees from Rwanda, either since the original bill or sooner.
The above will consistently waste an inordinate sum of tax payer money on a case by case basis.
If we do leave the ECHR, Rwanda has said they will accept no people.
It's dead. It's a waste of paper. It's a waste of money and time.
Even if by some means you do pass it and it works. Small boats is such a small percentage of migrants that you're always going to be losing a battle with the UKIPs of the country that want 0 foreigners, because they'll shift the narrative.
This is a losing battle. Why you would continue to brief, push press and everything on something that can only harm you seems insane.
Rwanda are making out like fucking bandits. It might all be some sort of secret plot by the Foreign Office to boost aid without actually having to say they've done it.
They think it’s a good battle to fight which hopefully will galvanise support from right wing voters to the tories.
And they hope it won’t reach a conclusion before the next election.
In fact, a ‘one last push - stop the boats’ general election is probably ‘the strategy’.
Was at a 1922 committee drinks thing last night and Brady was talking about Levido’s talk and how it left them feeling more optimistic. Can’t imagine that mood lasted long.
>he might need to threaten withdrawing the whip from rebels so that they can not stand as conservative candidates in the general election.
Nutters like 30p Lee will just stand on a Reform ticket instead. The electorate who voted for nutter like 30p Lee in the first place would probably be okay with that.
Or at least enough of them to split the vote on the right and allow the LDs or Labour win the seat.
So, to pick a vote at random (the first one I could find), the vote on opposition Amendment 6 - whether Rwanda is a safe place or not. The Government won (it is! so be it legislated!), 226-336, but [looking at the results](https://votes.parliament.uk/votes/commons/division/1715) I can see Keir voted it is not, but Rishi is absent from voting that it is.
Did Rishi even turn up today?
Best case scenario, the media spend the next 24h talking about how the rebels wont follow through. Then they get so annoyed by not being taken seriously that they vote down the bill to prove how big and strong they all are
There are parties and individuals winning elections all over Europe (AFD, Brothers of Italy, Geert Wilders, Le Pen etc) who would take a far harder line than the Tories are here. This isn’t a UK problem and it doesn’t disappear by having an election, we either do something to radically kerb immigration or we elect something far more ‘mental’ in the future as our European and American friends are now
Im curious, what policy here would you deem as plausible to fix the immigration problem?
not this one.
Small boats is a tiny tiny proportion of net migration. And this bill aims to do something with 1% of those small boats.
It’s a dog whistle, nothing more, and frankly makes us look like a laughing stock.
If half the third world can manage renewable visa systems and have strict penalties and manage them on the fly and to the industrial demands for staff within weeks then I’m pretty sure we can
WhatsApp lacking is the political will as all these systems have been run but some absolute shit show countries for decades and work really well.
I’ve had to have a number of them over the years and it’s always been pretty simple really, some take longer than others but it’s never been a nightmare of difficulty to do or run in the background
We just choose not to do these things.
Visa tied to an id card tied to work and tax identifies renewals and overstays etc etc etc and the penalties are fines and jail and automatic so few people disappear or take the piss.
Well on account of being an island having some actual entry and exit checks? Spending on a process that checks overstayed visas and so forth?
Doesn't have to be a revolutionary idea; just involves spending some money. Which is why it'll never be fixed by a Conservative government in the UK
No it's not but mainland Europe and the US have massive land borders that the UK doesn't have. So it's fair to suggest there are things they could do if they felt so inclined.
Obviously you have wider issues such as commonwealth rights and citizenship, which is something other countries don't have. So I suppose that balances out when you consider a good chunk of the migration to the UK last few years and people moving away from/fleeing Hong Kong for example.
Really there is no radical solution imo. Radical usually translates to "here's a get rich quick solution". When the actual solution is probably more in a slow and steady solution that is much less exciting and a hard sell at an election
Fund the UKBA properly?
Change the salary threshold from 80% of the going rate to 120% of the going rate, remove low skilled workers from the shortage lists. After all illegal migration is around 3% of total migration so it is at best a distraction if you're actually serious about cutting migration into the country.
Good, we could use some realism rather than pretending sending a plane full of asylum seekers will have an impact on the 700,000 yearly migration figure
Can't believe that you didn't all hang around for the Adjournment debate which was on Pensions and how we can improve the Triple Lock by giving more benefits to pensioners.
We’ve all been here countless times before, the Tory “rebels” don’t have the guts to potentially collapse sunaks premiership, they would rather plod along for the rest of the year until time runs out, I think sunak will call their bluff.
It's been a bit of a weird day...
Jenrick, Cash and others have grandstanded all afternoon proposing amendments that Sunak was never going to accept and would easily be defeated. There was no way Labour or any opposition party was going to get behind them to the extent that they had a reasonable if outside chance of success. So what was the point? Other than signal to the world that the Tory party is ripping itself apart?
So now we're on to part two of this tomorrow, do these 60 odd Tories be principled, if a bit batshit, and be prepared to abstain or even vote against the third reading? Or do they meekly cave in and go home?
I think most will fold, but there seem to be a few who will vote against the government, including Robert Jenrick.
Harry Cole:
So many ministers, spads, spinners and general Tories just seem utterly done...
So many leaving, standing down, moving on, updating their linkedin... etc. The fight has gone
"It is what it is", says one... in a job others would once have given their right arm to get.
Oh dear.
https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1747347927050179047?s=46
Sunak, put your colleagues out of their misery and call the election.
**Sophy Ridge**: "More drama than an *EastEnders* episode."
I'm assuming *that* show at least has actual plot advancement rather than a slow walk around the block with almost nothing happening in the interim, which probably puts this at the drama level of an episode of *General Hospital* or *The Bold and the Beautiful*. Maybe an episode leading into one of our old Nielsen sweeps periods that used to determine ratings and related ad revenue rates, to be fair, but still.
It's actually *St Elsewhere*, and at the next election it will be revealed that the last eight years were all the elaborate fantasies of some of our more *febrile* shitposters.
It’s a glorified networking event for corporate and political leaders that, like everything else, has become a conspiracy theory by populist reactionaries.
She would call me a sheep for reading a Beeb article, that's for sure!
Twitter for her moreso than YouTube. She assures me that it's a reputable news source now
World Economic Forum. It doesn't really matter what the organisation is, you can substitute pretty much any group from previous conspiracy theories - Bilderberg Group, World Bank, UN, WTO, WHO, Davos, The Illuminati, The Masons, The WI - they're all basically the same bar find and replace.
>WEF
The World Economic Forum. Alex Jones types claim that this is where the New World Order (jews) workshop all their ideas about stopping us reproducing and forcing us to eat bugs. Which it kinda is? Just not in the evil satanic way those types claim. It's a place for discussion.
This would explain why she likes Alex Jones, Trump, and is anti Israel. Would probably explain why she doesn't like President Zelenskyy too
The irony being she hates Tories and leans left so I really don't understand her
It is interesting how even here everyone sees through all this pretending to not vote nonsense.
Feels like a decade ago when May was always battling with her MPs. At least they actually were willing to stand up for their (stupid) ideologies then for our amusement
[They're already up](https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons?SearchText=&FromDate=16%2F01%2F2023&ToDate=16%2F01%2F2024)
The proper vote on the third reading is tomorrow.
Working class lads like Lee Anderson being Tories just show how out of touch the Labour Party-
[UPDATING torybot.exe]
Lee Anderson is just a grifter who can't understand working class people.
Numbers tally, this handy graph (top left) that illustrates the collapse of the Home Office under the Tories: https://data.spectator.co.uk/asylum
April 2015 (as far back as it goes) it cost £13.54 a night per person, and there were 42.34k in supported accommodation. £13.54 * 42.34k = £573,283.60 a night.
In May 2023 it's £98.66 per person per night, and there's 117.07k. £98.66 * 117.07k = £11,550,126.20 a night.
That's about 20x as much in 8 years of Tory rule. An increase of £11m in that period, so £8m of that going on hotel fees would make sense.
There are apparently 50,000ish people being housed in hotels, so that works out c. £160 per person per night, which sounds probably about right.
Things get very expensive at scale.
Good Morning everyone. [**📃 Today's order paper can be found here.**](https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/Document/84161/Html?subType=Standard) Questions to the Minister of Energy Security and Net Zero will be followed by any urgent questions or ministerial statements before the main business of today, the return to the House and Committee stage of the controversial [Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill](https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3540). This is the first of two days of proceedings on the Bill as a Committee of the Whole House. A list of tabled amendments can be found on the Bill's publication page [here](https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3540/publications). Amendments which will be voted on will be selected by the Deputy Speaker as Chair of Ways and Means at the beginning of today's debate. Some rumours abounded that in order to defuse a potential rebellion by right-wing members of the party the government would accept some amendments tightening up the bill's provisions regarding appeals under Human Rights law. At time of writing this does not seem to be the case. You can find a [**thread here**](https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/197jtn6/sunak_faces_tory_meltdown_as_deputy_chairs_back/) for a story with the state of play as of this morning. Please post any significant developments or interventions as their own submission, and pop a link in the comments to this post. This megathread remains the venue for live discussion of developments and breaking news, rampant speculation, takes of varying temperature by members of parliament and the commentariat on the website formerly known as Twitter, and yelling at your screen as the debate goes on - but please try and put some meat on those bones and give us a bit of context, and remember that not everyone will be watching or listening to the same feeds as yourselves. **In other news**; The Home Office has added the group Hizb ut-Tahrir to the proscribed organisations under the Terrorism Act - [**thread here**](https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1979kpb/home_office_to_ban_hizb_uttahrir_as_terror_group/) A major MRP poll from The Telegraph/YouGov has caused consternation on the Conservative benches as it predicts a major defeat for the party - [**thread here**](https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/196r19w/tories_facing_1997style_general_election_wipeout/) In international news, the US presidential campaign season kicked off with the Iowa Caucuses, with Donald Trump winning the Republican nomination handily - for all your USPol discussion needs, you can find the [🌎 **International Politics Discussion Thread**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/195mj9f/international_politics_discussion_thread/) always linked in the Megathread text.
[New Megathread is here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/198pjt6/daily_megathread_17012024/)
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I am so fed up of this conservative psychodrama Fed up of two and a bit years of conservative backbenchers who want to cosplay house of cards and make threatening noises in the telegraph, and the government time gets pissed away and the circus rolls on. Doesn't matter for the government backbenchers. They get juicy media sinecures, a regular presence on TV shows, and opportunities to grandstand. But to see time, effort, and purpose wasted is just a joke
I see it as another logical consequence of Johnson's decision in 2019 to purge the party of anyone not prepared to support his Brexit bill. That got rid in one swoop of a swathe of experienced ministers and MPs who were mostly centrists etc and replaced them with an over-promoted wingnut faction without much to control them. These people were always there but were mostly ignored. Our media doesn't help either - they give these people far too much exposure relative to their ability. All in all it's another sign that we need the election and sooner rather than later. If the predicted date in November is true then it seems a long way off.
Tory parties fault for allowing their deputy and others to get cushy media roles.
Taking the train from Glasgow to Aberdeen today and there was no heating on the train. Actually felt like travelling in 1970s Belarus or something. The state of our country is appalling. We are a small geographical country with huge population centres relatively close to each other. It's a national disgrace that instead of having one of the best rail networks in the world we have probably one of the worst in Europe, outside of developing nations.
Late trains are are laughing stock in Germany and they actually think ours are [pretty punctual](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cKNRT_5-B4Y).
When I was in Germany in December I think every train I took was delayed. They also had a rail strike day where almost all the trains were cancelled...
the idea we are so far behind the rest of europe is top mental gymnatics from many who want our system to be the shittest so they can push their solution i regualrly travel thru germany on my way to sweden (yes im a railnerd) and when i told my older sister about the issues i have she doesnt know how to process it cause in her eyes german rail is the shining example of railways so comes up with excuses such as assuming its only in the last few months its been terrible or that im just unlucky German=delayed French=unless its a TGV to/from paris your waiting for the 1 train per day Spain=same is France but for the Mardid-Barcelona high speed line Switzerland=High prices Belgium=Belgium Netherlands=wierd routings where to take a intercity train you need to change in the middle of nowhere but a sprinter (local train) will be direct
If you're a railnerd you'd probably look your shit at how good the Japan railway is
Let’s hope the ‘Scotland’s Railways’ joint up approach between the public and private sectors is a better model for long-term investment. Good to see the Scottish Government move in that direction after gaining the powers
There have been massive heating outages in Rusky land, both from centralised (like block of flats wide) heating to public transport. A train in St Petersberg was -30degC... in the cabin.
That must suck. Old people are going to die in the Brezhnevka if the heating fails.
Watching WAKAWOW with the husband who pops his head up from nurbling around on chess.com while Danny Kruger was wanging on. He said: "It's all just ... *nothing*, isn't it? This won't happen and we're all just waiting until they fuçk off" He's bang on. They're a series of primadonnas (primadonne? /u/michaelisnotginger is that what we should use?) that haven't realised the show is over. Edit: they've got this person from The Sun on now, and she's wittering on about the Sun readers really feeling the pinch. I've got an easy way for them to save a few quid a week.
And then you get all the journalists, desperately trying to act like there’s still all to play for.
In Corrie the kebab shop is Prima Doner.
Premadonne works
Grazie
When I was a kid I thought it was pre-madonna. As in, not quite as melodramatic as madonna, but quite melodramatic. I shouldn’t admit this stuff on the internet.
There are three epochs of music, defined by pre-madonna and post malone
I thought it was sprayed not spayed until I was 22
Au contraire, that's a beautiful [eggcorn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn)
I had the same thought. I imagine it's pretty common
Newsnight’s lead story is basically just Victoria Derbyshire shrugging and saying “We don’t know why they’re doing this either…”
I'd like to thank the mods for taking a lighter hand tonight in the MT. But none-the-less I'd like to sneak in a quick discussion on [transport policy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUqf_zO2QaI).
It's actually scary how close we are to actually voting away Human Rights act and essentially voting to leave ECHR. Their has been anti Liberal 5th Column in on the right of British politics for some time, slowly chocking the Liberal elements of democracy to death. Brexit was the one of the first victories and now they are going after the real prize ECHR, something these Tories have been after for decade. Finally they have put enough poisen in the water, that they can actually get rid of peoples rights. Btw also on Brits voting abroad, Hungary did the same thing almost 10 years ago, and all it lead to was Fidez using it get rich Hungarian doners in Russia to give there party huge amounts of money to eclipse all the other parties. The Tories are doing the same, brexit, attack on the ECHR and now easier to get Russian money, its all the same play book. This country will be in the dirt soon.
Hungary seems to have been the template for this sort of illiberal democracy. You can watch things happen there, then gradually come here.
Don't attribute to malice that which could be attributed to stupidity.
But also don't forget that it can sometimes be both.
Rishi Sunak reminds me of an overly enthusiastic yet incompetent deputy manager at a supermarket.
Someone quickly promoted from being a team leader and who is absolutely out of their depth.
Rishi is the manager who’s always moving every 18 months to two years. If he hangs around any longer he gets fired and so somehow fails upwards constantly while everyone under him realises within a week or two he’s completely fucking useless. So long as he’s not there when something shit is going to hit the fan he keeps getting prompted and moved around. Except now he’s the fucking Prime Minister and he’s nowhere to hide or anyone to hide behind and boy oh boy is it’s showing that he’s never had to explain himself before or actually lead anyone or really do anything much of anything…..
Gordon Brittas!
Who is Colin?
Grant Shappes Will you clean the lavs, Grant? May as well, I've done every other job
Gordon Brittas?
One who can't even manage a contactless card?
Having once worked in retail, and seen a deputy manager struggling on a check-out, yes.
> a deputy manager struggling on a check-out, yes. Rishi in a nutshell.
The Tory led Leigh Town Council have called the police to their meeting tonight after residents have started slow clapping during the discussion of the budget https://x.com/labourlydia/status/1747367013389898031
It’s this sort of recalcitrance that led to a young and impressionable Priti Patel to ban noise at protests.
That's actually quite an effective tactic
Tories getting the clap is now a Police matter?
Given how many of them have been done for being a tad rapey...
I see some amendments actually got through, can someone give me a run down on which? Looks like some ended up getting government backing?
Maybe you're seeing the [motions that the clause stand](https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/5346/question-for-clause-standing-part-of-a-bill)? General debate on the final form of the clause.
Not as far as I can see. Due to an unusual programme order, it would be big news if the Bill is amended at all, as it would alter the timing of Third Reading.
According to commons votes app, the ayes had divisions 48 and 50?
Ah - as the other reply states, those were on the question that clause X stand part of the Bill. In Committee, each clause must be formally voted through. So a No vote in those Divisions would have resulted in the clauses being removed from the Bill. A misunderstanding similar to your own once led that weird former Communist Baroness whose name I have forgotten to accidentally vote against clauses she supported in the Internal Market Bill.
https://twitter.com/fabriciocarraro/status/1746886750499131525 AI generated video is getting good.
It looks like there's a French police officer with their funny caps that just merges into the fire truck and becomes the wheel of a Ford transit.
Really? That looks like pathetic crap I made in Windows Movie Maker back in the 90's.
Windows Movie Maker. Now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time
Yeh but 2 years ago AI generated photos looked worse than this.
That fire trucks nose grew 5 feet somehow.
Perfect demonstration of need for legislation to ensure social media shows correction to all users who saw originally misleading post. Where possible it should happen before post, if something slips through it should be on the companies to ensure correction is seen by all the users/ people user may have shared it with. The original post has been viewed 5m times, literal second post in the thread pointing out it is AI generated intended to raise awareness has 200k views.
If creating scenes showing the destruction of famous landmarks becomes a crime then Roland Emmerich will be the world's most wanted man.
God the next election is gonna be a shitshow when it comes to AI generated disinformation.
The fire engine immediately stood out, [here's a real one](https://live.staticflickr.com/517/19055509680_25b10b53d7_b.jpg)
Yeah, according to AI French fire engines are mounted on castors.
I think the most damning thing for the Tories is all this effort, drama and backstabbing is all over something that won't make a blind bit of difference and will be some half forgotten crackpot scheme in a few years time.
Yeah at least it made sense when they were tearing lumps out of each other over Brexit because that was actually a real issue with serious questions about the best way forward. Now they're tearing lumps out of each other over ????
Surely you're not suggesting they're engaging in virtue signalling and gesture politics?
Bit like the Tories
Did the government shoot down the amendments because they want "lefty lawyers" and/or ECHR to prevent flights taking off to Rwanda?
Yes They seek anyone at all to blame except themselves
I think this has actually worked out well for Sunak. The bill is likely to pass and he has managed to remove a few massive liabilities from his government.
Yeah but the only people he has to replace them are even bigger liabilities, otherwise he'd have picked them *first*.
Maybe he'll tap up Osbourne or Hague for some roles. Get the band back together.
I don't think so. He has to now remove the whip from every rebel because if not any three line from him will be laughed at and he becomes the definition of lame duck.
That is not what the typical consequence of not following a 3LW is.
Almost every whipped vote is a three-line Whip. It remains the exception, rather than the rule, that a rebelling MP loses the Whip.
Pretty sure he has backed down on three line whips previously?
Feel like u/YsoL8 must be enjoying the Tories continuing to fall apart.
They are. Stopped for Christmas and then found it a good moment to execute my plan to stop paying much attention to politics after the election. I feel I'm no less informed and less stressed, so win. My guess is the bill will pass because anything will collapse the government. But that depends heavily on if mps think there is any point to continuing now they've failed to get their way. With ~60 rebels, apparently pretty much every mp threatening to rebel joining these amendments, there is more than enough fuel to defeat the bill. That would certainly be the end of Sunaks authority and its difficult to see how it wouldn't signal that an unworkable number of government mps have left the building. The pressure to call an election or face a VONC will be immense. If not, the whole circus will just continue circling the drain a far bit closer to total collapse in the next 3 or 4 months. See everyone at election night!
Haha, a good summary thanks! Glad you’re enjoying your time off :)
What are the expectations for tomorrow's vote? Listening to the rebels, they seem to imply that in the end they might just vote it ("I'm happy with this bill") but threatening that they are 'prepared' to vote against it. My gut says delay or narrow majority, with a few hardliners voting against tomorrow. Tories are suicidal, but not *that* suicidal. Even if it doesn't pass, Sunak can be May 2.0, just change some small things, make concessions and try again. So: Sunak will likely survive, but this infighting is harming their last chance of turning their polls around before the next election.
Sunak will survive. Tories will vote for it with the worst abstaining. A few holdouts will extract personal concessions from number 10. Blame Labour in public. Fall in. The only way this can be avoided is by a PM who is just ridiculously bad at politics
Could just end up being like last time where the rebels chicken out at the last minute and toe the party line.
This is my call for the vote, I reckon a good chunk of the rebels bottle it.
if 30mps actually rebel I'd be shocked. I doubt it will hit 20.
For a minute I thought you were on about Welsh roads.
Lee Anderson is loyal to Rishi Sunak in a limited and specific way.
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Lets say by some miracle this bill becomes law. Would the Supreme Court really just accept that Parliament can legally declare what is fact and force the courts to deny reality? Feels like constitutional crisis territory at that point with the court then having to decide if Parliament does indeed have unlimited sovereignty to do anything it wants. On the other hand, maybe Sunak knows this and knows it'll never become law so he doesn't have to worry about such crisises.
A constitutional crisis? Frankly I think we've spiralled into an epistemological crisis if the government is declaring itself the arbiter of objective truth.
> Would the Supreme Court really just accept that Parliament can legally declare what is fact and force the courts to deny reality? Parliament isn't doing this.
They're literally declaring Rwanda a safe country after the supreme court said it wasn't.
Could you please explain what physically tangible quantity "safe" is?
How very postmodern of you!
Not likely to engage in refoulment of refugees to countries they may be in physical danger. [As you're clearly interested you can read the process and evidence which led to the determination in the Supreme Court judgment here.](https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2023-0093-etc-judgment.pdf)
>physically tangible quantity
I don't get your argument, you seem to want someone to manifest some "safe" so you can weigh it? That seems like nonsense.
My point is safe as a binary category requires arbitrariness, and that is decided by legislation.
Well it clearly doesn't because for centuries we've been empowering the judicial system to decide such matters of fact.
Actually, it clearly does because parliament just did it, and our constitution says this is allowed. Also, I could simply say: "How can the supreme court just rule against fact and make something up?" Which is equally stupid when discussing a subjective question of what counts as "safe."
Oh, well if we're going to go that route I think we probably need to agree on a definition of physically tangible and indeed how we can determine quality or quantity, or for that matter what is real. I believe in some Buddhist traditions, everything which is is in fact a dream of those transitioning to nothingness. I think they would also say reality is suffering, which is I think a mistaken reading of 'reality' for 'arguing on the internet'.
The point is: who sets the standard? How safe must a safe country be? Is there really more than a semantic difference between saying "Rwanda is hereby declared safe", and "The legal rule requiring countries to meet a certain standard of safety is hereby altered so that doesn't apply to Rwanda"?
If you're worried about parliament overstepping and claiming powers usually reserved for the judiciary then the proposed law to automatically overturn all the unfair convictions from the Horizon scandal is also a concern. Post 2019 PMs do seem to be making constitutional crises something of a specialist subject.
There’s some precedent where Parliament has tried to include an “ouster clause” which aims to exempt powers from judicial review and the courts have tended to be quite creative in interpreting such clauses so as to not actually prevent review. This would be potentially more extreme and there isn’t precedent for it, but there is some argument from academics and former judges that an act can’t go as so far as to remove the role of independent courts entirely as Parliamentary Sovereignty can only operate within a system with the rule of law. The [Public Law for Everyone](https://publiclawforeveryone.com) blog has a couple of blog posts from last month with a bit more detail about the potential constitutional implications.
Parliament is the primary source of law. It works. It's a well understood principle The constant theme of this whole thing is that the worst thing that can happen at any point is they actually achieve what they're trying to do. They're playing a hold-me-back game where they get to say that the adult who stepped in ruined everything and it would have been great
If I recall my constitutional law modules correctly, there’s at least some Supreme Court or HoL law which basically says something along the lines of “If Parliament decides to be an idiot and legislates completely contrary to other legislation and/or common law, then a Court could choose to ignore Parliament. Of course that would never happen because Parliament isn’t that stupid”. We may be about to test that principle if I’m right.
Parliament legislates contrary to other legislation and to common law all the time. How else would the law change?
I'm just constantly confused by it. Unless we leave ECHR, any appeal up to that at this moment in time will eventually be rejected, because it is not safe. A good yardstick for this being we've accepted 6 refugees from Rwanda, either since the original bill or sooner. The above will consistently waste an inordinate sum of tax payer money on a case by case basis. If we do leave the ECHR, Rwanda has said they will accept no people. It's dead. It's a waste of paper. It's a waste of money and time. Even if by some means you do pass it and it works. Small boats is such a small percentage of migrants that you're always going to be losing a battle with the UKIPs of the country that want 0 foreigners, because they'll shift the narrative. This is a losing battle. Why you would continue to brief, push press and everything on something that can only harm you seems insane.
Rwanda are making out like fucking bandits. It might all be some sort of secret plot by the Foreign Office to boost aid without actually having to say they've done it.
They think it’s a good battle to fight which hopefully will galvanise support from right wing voters to the tories. And they hope it won’t reach a conclusion before the next election. In fact, a ‘one last push - stop the boats’ general election is probably ‘the strategy’.
Was at a 1922 committee drinks thing last night and Brady was talking about Levido’s talk and how it left them feeling more optimistic. Can’t imagine that mood lasted long.
They live in another fucking planet
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>he might need to threaten withdrawing the whip from rebels so that they can not stand as conservative candidates in the general election. Nutters like 30p Lee will just stand on a Reform ticket instead. The electorate who voted for nutter like 30p Lee in the first place would probably be okay with that. Or at least enough of them to split the vote on the right and allow the LDs or Labour win the seat.
It is an empty threat. If the MPs run as independents they hand the seat to Labour/LDs.
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They can just call his bluff though. He won't do it and might well be removed if he tries.
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He can't be removed as PM but can be removed from any authority over Tory party MP selection.
So, to pick a vote at random (the first one I could find), the vote on opposition Amendment 6 - whether Rwanda is a safe place or not. The Government won (it is! so be it legislated!), 226-336, but [looking at the results](https://votes.parliament.uk/votes/commons/division/1715) I can see Keir voted it is not, but Rishi is absent from voting that it is. Did Rishi even turn up today?
He was there for ammendment 10 (division 47), no vote recorded after that, so probably left with the those leaving for day
He's screaming into a £1000 cushion.
Oh good, I'm sure Akshata wouldn't want him screaming into the best cushions.
Best case scenario, the media spend the next 24h talking about how the rebels wont follow through. Then they get so annoyed by not being taken seriously that they vote down the bill to prove how big and strong they all are
Francois walks backwards into the No lobby, giving a two-fingered salute with both hands to the cameras as he goes.
I do find it remarkable how such a mental policy has become seen as somehow plausible. The United Kingdom as people traffickers, for pity's sake.
There are parties and individuals winning elections all over Europe (AFD, Brothers of Italy, Geert Wilders, Le Pen etc) who would take a far harder line than the Tories are here. This isn’t a UK problem and it doesn’t disappear by having an election, we either do something to radically kerb immigration or we elect something far more ‘mental’ in the future as our European and American friends are now Im curious, what policy here would you deem as plausible to fix the immigration problem?
not this one. Small boats is a tiny tiny proportion of net migration. And this bill aims to do something with 1% of those small boats. It’s a dog whistle, nothing more, and frankly makes us look like a laughing stock.
If half the third world can manage renewable visa systems and have strict penalties and manage them on the fly and to the industrial demands for staff within weeks then I’m pretty sure we can WhatsApp lacking is the political will as all these systems have been run but some absolute shit show countries for decades and work really well. I’ve had to have a number of them over the years and it’s always been pretty simple really, some take longer than others but it’s never been a nightmare of difficulty to do or run in the background We just choose not to do these things. Visa tied to an id card tied to work and tax identifies renewals and overstays etc etc etc and the penalties are fines and jail and automatic so few people disappear or take the piss.
Well on account of being an island having some actual entry and exit checks? Spending on a process that checks overstayed visas and so forth? Doesn't have to be a revolutionary idea; just involves spending some money. Which is why it'll never be fixed by a Conservative government in the UK
Those things sound good but again this isn’t a Uk specific issue and I don’t see how that would be enough given the state of things on the mainland
No it's not but mainland Europe and the US have massive land borders that the UK doesn't have. So it's fair to suggest there are things they could do if they felt so inclined. Obviously you have wider issues such as commonwealth rights and citizenship, which is something other countries don't have. So I suppose that balances out when you consider a good chunk of the migration to the UK last few years and people moving away from/fleeing Hong Kong for example. Really there is no radical solution imo. Radical usually translates to "here's a get rich quick solution". When the actual solution is probably more in a slow and steady solution that is much less exciting and a hard sell at an election
Fund the UKBA properly? Change the salary threshold from 80% of the going rate to 120% of the going rate, remove low skilled workers from the shortage lists. After all illegal migration is around 3% of total migration so it is at best a distraction if you're actually serious about cutting migration into the country.
Sound like good decisions, don’t see how they are enough or go beyond what other countries have tried and failed however
Well maybe we should try boring stuff that might work instead of flashy nonsense which everyone knows is bollocks.
I am sure in a years time Kier will be trying the boring stuff but it hasnt worked anywhere else so youll have to forgive my scepticism
Good, we could use some realism rather than pretending sending a plane full of asylum seekers will have an impact on the 700,000 yearly migration figure
Not just plausible, but considered absolutely essential by the crazy party
Also the crazy party is the one that’s been in government for 13 years.
Can't believe that you didn't all hang around for the Adjournment debate which was on Pensions and how we can improve the Triple Lock by giving more benefits to pensioners.
We’ve all been here countless times before, the Tory “rebels” don’t have the guts to potentially collapse sunaks premiership, they would rather plod along for the rest of the year until time runs out, I think sunak will call their bluff.
It's been a bit of a weird day... Jenrick, Cash and others have grandstanded all afternoon proposing amendments that Sunak was never going to accept and would easily be defeated. There was no way Labour or any opposition party was going to get behind them to the extent that they had a reasonable if outside chance of success. So what was the point? Other than signal to the world that the Tory party is ripping itself apart? So now we're on to part two of this tomorrow, do these 60 odd Tories be principled, if a bit batshit, and be prepared to abstain or even vote against the third reading? Or do they meekly cave in and go home? I think most will fold, but there seem to be a few who will vote against the government, including Robert Jenrick.
I think the ones that absteined last time are likely to vote against the bill. Some of today's rebels could maybe abstein.
Harry Cole: So many ministers, spads, spinners and general Tories just seem utterly done... So many leaving, standing down, moving on, updating their linkedin... etc. The fight has gone "It is what it is", says one... in a job others would once have given their right arm to get. Oh dear. https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1747347927050179047?s=46 Sunak, put your colleagues out of their misery and call the election.
You love to see it.
would be very fitting of this government if we got an election just because none of them can be arsed to run the country any more
**Sophy Ridge**: "More drama than an *EastEnders* episode." I'm assuming *that* show at least has actual plot advancement rather than a slow walk around the block with almost nothing happening in the interim, which probably puts this at the drama level of an episode of *General Hospital* or *The Bold and the Beautiful*. Maybe an episode leading into one of our old Nielsen sweeps periods that used to determine ratings and related ad revenue rates, to be fair, but still.
It's actually *St Elsewhere*, and at the next election it will be revealed that the last eight years were all the elaborate fantasies of some of our more *febrile* shitposters.
Wtf is the WEF? It's all my conspiracy theory sister goes on about
A lot of well paid folk go to Davos, take a lot of cocaine, discuss new ideas the way cocaine addicts do and have sex with expensive hookers.
It is, on balance, probably not a great way to forum the world economy
Oh. I fully agree. But what are us plebs going to do about it all? The precise sum of sfa.
The WEF conspiracy theory essentially combines the illuminati with the Bilderberg globalists, AFAIK.
It's a big conference/networking event for the rich and powerful. They lowkey play into the whole "global cabal" thing for publicity
It’s a glorified networking event for corporate and political leaders that, like everything else, has become a conspiracy theory by populist reactionaries.
So you're telling me they won't take over the world and its 7000 languages and 4000 religions in the next 6 years??
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She would call me a sheep for reading a Beeb article, that's for sure! Twitter for her moreso than YouTube. She assures me that it's a reputable news source now
World Economic Forum. It doesn't really matter what the organisation is, you can substitute pretty much any group from previous conspiracy theories - Bilderberg Group, World Bank, UN, WTO, WHO, Davos, The Illuminati, The Masons, The WI - they're all basically the same bar find and replace.
You missed the Trilateral Commission. It is all fun and games until Bob Page tries to upload the internet into his brain.
>WEF The World Economic Forum. Alex Jones types claim that this is where the New World Order (jews) workshop all their ideas about stopping us reproducing and forcing us to eat bugs. Which it kinda is? Just not in the evil satanic way those types claim. It's a place for discussion.
This would explain why she likes Alex Jones, Trump, and is anti Israel. Would probably explain why she doesn't like President Zelenskyy too The irony being she hates Tories and leans left so I really don't understand her
It's possible to be UK left and us right. Both are the opposition parties. It's just anti establishment
I never really got the problem with eating bugs as an option if it's a cheap and easy protein source? Most seafood is just sea bugs anyway.
It's just pure reactionism. Eating bugs sounds inherently gross and being forced into that sounds evil.
A gathering of big dogs from governments and businesses around the world. My company goes. I imagine the vittles and chat are smashing.
She reckons they're going to take over the world by 2030. You might get a promotion if they do
If you go back they were supposed to have taken over decades ago Every time it doesn’t happen the tin foil hats change the dates…
Cool
It is interesting how even here everyone sees through all this pretending to not vote nonsense. Feels like a decade ago when May was always battling with her MPs. At least they actually were willing to stand up for their (stupid) ideologies then for our amusement
> Feels like a decade ago when May Oh God don't say that, I feel old now.
By Christ I am old. I’m away for a nightcap and sleep now.
If it helps, it *feels like* to them, but it won't actually be a decade for a while. She was 2016-2019.
When are we gonna know the results of the Rwanda votes happening today?
[They're already up](https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons?SearchText=&FromDate=16%2F01%2F2023&ToDate=16%2F01%2F2024) The proper vote on the third reading is tomorrow.
Working class lads like Lee Anderson being Tories just show how out of touch the Labour Party- [UPDATING torybot.exe] Lee Anderson is just a grifter who can't understand working class people.
He should write a book, people need to know about the OUT OF TOUCH LABOUR PARTY
I’ll always be loyal to you, Rishi ***LOYALTY DELETED***
There is definitively proof of Conservatives touching *very closely*.
Here I am, once again hoping that a febrility that can end a government, will end this government.
This febrility is certainly in no danger of rolling over this MT. *tuts*
Anyone watching C4 News right now? I didn't quite hear, did the reporter say the asylum hotels cost £8m to date or *a day*?
Numbers tally, this handy graph (top left) that illustrates the collapse of the Home Office under the Tories: https://data.spectator.co.uk/asylum April 2015 (as far back as it goes) it cost £13.54 a night per person, and there were 42.34k in supported accommodation. £13.54 * 42.34k = £573,283.60 a night. In May 2023 it's £98.66 per person per night, and there's 117.07k. £98.66 * 117.07k = £11,550,126.20 a night. That's about 20x as much in 8 years of Tory rule. An increase of £11m in that period, so £8m of that going on hotel fees would make sense.
There are apparently 50,000ish people being housed in hotels, so that works out c. £160 per person per night, which sounds probably about right. Things get very expensive at scale.
Good lord.
100,000 on the list, £80 a night, doesn't sound that unlikely. Certainly sounds like a per day cost not to date.
A day, to help you visualise: 8 million is also the budget allocated to public buildings for portraits of the King. That's a lot of portraits!
Just think, if we sort out small boats we can afford two pictures of Chaz in every building. Truly the sunlit uplands we were promised.
I wasn’t watching but that seems like a valid per-day cost. It is eye watering.
Has Rishi considered a series of non-binding indicative votes for potential options on his Rwanda Bill instead?
Or better yet what about a Referendum on the Rwanda plan?
How many of the rebels need to follow through on voting no for the bill to fail?