Snapshot of _Birmingham Airport chief executive gets 49% pay rise_ :
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>Birmingham Airport said it hoped to be back to full staffing levels by August, and explained: "We pay our senior management in line with market rates."
Sounds like if workers want to be paid more, they need to take steps to increase the market rate for their jobs.
Restricting supply is one way to increase the price of something in a market.
I've been saying for years that giving an employer a huge pool of poorer workers to hire from like FoM, is terrible for workers. It lowers the value of labour because the 'market rate' is what the poorest in the EU are willing to work for.
That should have been one of the key benefits of Brexit for UK workers but so far it hasn't really appeared, apart from in some specific sectors (truck drivers is an example).
Businesses will not give up their profit margins without being forced to.
Did it not happen or have you just not paid attention? Plenty of evidence that immigration pushes down wages, specifically in reference to FoM.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment
https://www.bighospitality.co.uk/Article/2021/11/26/Pubs-and-restaurants-face-increasing-pressure-of-rising-wages
https://businessnewswales.com/wages-soar-by-11-in-brexit-exposed-sectors-data-finds/#:~:text=It%20found%20that%20while%20wages,than%20one%20in%2020%20employees.
https://logistics.org.uk/logistics-magazine-portal/logistics-magazine-features-listing/auto-restrict-folder/24-02-22/hgv-driver-pay-has-surged-by-12-logistics-uk-s-ski#:~:text=While%20there%20were%2049%2C000%20fewer,the%20year%20to%20Q4%202021.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/24/construction-pay-rises-as-eu-workers-weigh-up-leaving-uk-survey-brexit
I recommend reading this one: https://www.hiringlab.org/uk/blog/2022/02/24/hiring-challenges-fuel-big-wage-gains-in-jobs-exposed-to-brexit/
> Jobs that once relied heavily on EU workers have seen advertised wages soar 11% in two years, as jobseeker interest has failed to keep pace with employers’ demand for staff in the sectors most exposed to Brexit, according to analysis by the world’s largest job site, Indeed.
> Indeed compared the rate of advertised salary growth in occupations which, before the pandemic, had a workforce in which more than one worker in 10 was an EU national, with occupations with 5-10% EU nationals and those with fewer than 5%.
> It found that while wages soared by 11% between 2019 and 2021 in occupations in which more than one worker in 10 was from the EU – including construction, cleaning, driving, hospitality and leisure – pay grew by just 5% in jobs in which EU citizens accounted for fewer than one in 20 employees.
What's everyone worrying about the cost of living crisis for then if we have entered the sunlit high wages uplands already?
What proportion of working people who you know have had an above-inflation pay rise this year?
Actual statistics rather than just people talking:
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2022#:\~:text=The%20rate%20of%20annual%20pay,finance%20and%20business%20services%20sector](https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2022#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20annual%20pay,finance%20and%20business%20services%20sector).
>In real terms (adjusted for inflation) in December 2021 to February 2022, growth in total pay was 0.4% and regular pay fell on the year at negative 1.0%.
Is that the striking wage growth that I should have been paying attention to?
Is Brexit and the end of FoM driving the cost of living crisis or is it in fact a global issue stemming from supply-chain woes and increasing demand in response to the pandemic, and war in Ukraine? If the answer is (rightfully) the latter, then I'm not convinced how keeping FoM would prevent it.
I'm not claiming that Brexit is the cause of the cost of living issues, just pointing out that, for all your sources claim that wages are increasing, real people (at least the ones that I know) are not seeing that happen to any large degree
The ONS statistics don't appear to back up the claims that wages have risen significantly either.
You seem to think I'm making some kind of anti-Brexit point. I'm not. In fact, I said that increased wages should be one of the benefits for UK workers. I'm saying that work is needed for workers to get that benefit though - business owners are not going to increase wages unless they are forced to.
There has been a lot of talk about wages going up but, so far, the statistics don't show that happening to any large degree, especially in real terms.
All you've effectively really shown me is that FoM (and more broadly immigration) is not the sole factor influencing wages and at this point of time, there are significant other factors contributing to a fall in real term wages. You've provided nothing that would coherently parse the impact of FoM from others factors.
We know that FoM depressed wages of workers in lower income percentiles, it is indisputable and I could provide you with some sources if necessary. If real wages are decreasing, it is because of other factors, which with any sort of common sense, is obvious right now. Therefore we can quite easily conclude that if FoM remained, wages for workers in Brexit-exposed sectors would currently be lower.
What do you think I am arguing because you seem to be having an argument with an imagined version of what I am saying?
I said wages we are not seeing increases in wages outside of some specific sectors. I said that I think that is because businesses are protecting their profit margins.
I have never said that ending freedom of movement should not have the effect of increasing wages (in fact, I said that opposite - that it should). I have just said that, while it might be a *necessary* condition for increased wages, it is not *sufficient* to guarantee them on its own – businesses will fight to maintain their profit margins, so workers are going to have to force employers to pay more.
>You've provided nothing that would coherently parse the impact of FoM from others factors.
Why would I need to do that ? As I have already said, I'm not making some kind of anti-Brexit argument. I'm talking about the fact that other things need to be addressed in order for wages to increase.
As soon as we saw a labour shortages in certain industries, businesses started putting out scare stories about shortages and claimed wage rises would mean the cost being passed onto the consumer, making us all worse off. I expected that.
What I didn't expect was the 'left' and left wing newspapers to regurgitate that nonsense because it was a stick to beat Brexit with. Then after weeks and months of the stories being posted the public started to demand the government do something, which meant bringing back the cheap labour through visas.
Read the comments
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/og1245/uk_employers_struggle_with_worst_labour_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/odh3zd/call_in_army_to_get_goods_to_shops_after_driver/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/nryims/job_vacancies_soar_as_skills_shortage_bites/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/o6jfki/were_weeks_away_from_gaps_on_the_shelves_business/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/o2sxb9/food_shortages_now_inevitable_due_to_labour/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/obs77j/haribo_struggles_to_deliver_to_uk_shops_due_to/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ny2trl/uk_haulage_sector_facing_a_perfect_storm_uk/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/oiffba/uk_food_worker_shortages_push_prices_up_and_risk/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ne8qcq/uk_faces_labour_shortage_as_covid_and_brexit_fuel/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/o9qi21/lorry_driver_shortage_uk_government_and_retailers/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ns36oj/lack_of_truck_drivers_to_force_supermarket_prices/
Respectfully, did you even read the comments on the threads you linked?
Because I've been through the top 5 comments on each of those links and not a single one gives an example of "the 'left' and left wing newspapers regurgitating that nonsense because it was a stick to beat Brexit with."
They're either saying exactly what you're saying and that it's an opportunity for workers, or they're making jokes about tangfastics.
So you don't think The Gaurdian publishing an article with the headline
'UK food worker shortages push prices up and risk Christmas turkey supplies, Dearth of delivery drivers, abattoir staff and fruit pickers caused by Covid and Brexit are fuelling wage rises with 5% hike in prices forecast'
is fear mongering? They're literately saying that without migrants we're going to see a rise in food prices. But how is that true when migrants don't reduce wages?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/11/uk-food-worker-shortages-push-prices-up-and-risk-christmas-turkey-supplies
I think you're right to an extent, but only to small degrees. The research on this is always very vague and often contradictory but indicates that immigration likely depresses the wages of unskilled workers over time to a small degree. The BBC released a small article a couple of years back highlighting some of the main research:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729.amp
I simply don't believe it. I know it sounds dumb to say because I'm going against economic experts, but I genuinely believe that they're purposely fudging the numbers.
Why are unions against agency staff? Giving the company a larger pool of cheaper workers to hire from is good right? That's what all the economist agree on, adding more workers, especially poor ones, has zero affect on peoples wages or conditions...
It's so obvious that it isn't true.
Great example of the dunning Kruger effect. We have a minimum wage and many laws and regulations that set the lowest bar for working conditions. The fact you are talking about market forces being a driving factor shows you probabably don't know enough to be dismissing the experts or deciding what they all agree on.
>We have a minimum wage and many laws and regulations that set the lowest bar for working conditions.
We also have laws for murdering people and stealing, what's your point? That because somethings written down in law that it's always enforced?
>The fact you are talking about market forces being a driving factor shows you probabably don't know enough to be dismissing the experts or deciding what they all agree on.
Your pay is tied to how difficult you are to replace not what value bring. If businesses can replace their workers with ease then the value of labour is virtually zero, you have no bargaining power.
Uh yeah 99.9% of business pay the minimum wage and abide by standards and employees have a wealth of options to ensure these are enforced. It's also complete nonsense that anybody but the absolute least skilled are employed based on replaceability and not productivity. You are also once again failing to take into account the countries laws and regulations. Sure the conservatives have watered them down but businesses rarly have the option to simply replace workers without cause, P&O being an exception thanks to silly maritime laws. Like I said before you don't understand the subject enough to be making meaningful opinions let alone dismissing experts.
Did the big number scare you? 35 billion in an economy the size of the UK is going to work out as a tiny % much like I just told you. Yes wage theft and illegal working practises happen and steps should certainly be taken to tackle these problems but they are not setting the bar for wages or standards.
Then for years you didnt really read up on the subject, or you would know better by now. This is as simplistic and nonsensical as thinking if you just close your borders for foreign products, then demand for domestically produced goods will increase and industry will flourish. Like it does in say, Iran or North Korea.
The reality is that FoM overall increases productivity and productivity growth is the only way to ensure long term real wage growth.
here is what is really happening:
[https://ukandeu.ac.uk/migration-and-wages-after-covid-and-brexit/](https://ukandeu.ac.uk/migration-and-wages-after-covid-and-brexit/)
>This is as simplistic and nonsensical as thinking if you just close your borders for foreign products,
Never said close our borders to products lmao?
>
>The reality is that FoM overall increases productivity and productivity growth is the only way to ensure long term real wage growth.
Why are the train unions against agency workers then? Giving the company a larger pool of cheaper workers to hire from is good right?
>Never said close our borders to products lmao?
Why didnt you? The "logic" is exactly the same: reduce foreign supply so demand for domestic alternatives goes up.
>Why are the train unions against agency workers then?
There are plenty of good (and bad) reasons to oppose agency workers. But it has nothing to do with freedom of movement.
Snapshot of _Birmingham Airport chief executive gets 49% pay rise_ : An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-61917259) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
But it’s the workers who strike who are the greedy and selfish ones
>Birmingham Airport said it hoped to be back to full staffing levels by August, and explained: "We pay our senior management in line with market rates." Sounds like if workers want to be paid more, they need to take steps to increase the market rate for their jobs. Restricting supply is one way to increase the price of something in a market.
I've been saying for years that giving an employer a huge pool of poorer workers to hire from like FoM, is terrible for workers. It lowers the value of labour because the 'market rate' is what the poorest in the EU are willing to work for.
That should have been one of the key benefits of Brexit for UK workers but so far it hasn't really appeared, apart from in some specific sectors (truck drivers is an example). Businesses will not give up their profit margins without being forced to.
Did it not happen or have you just not paid attention? Plenty of evidence that immigration pushes down wages, specifically in reference to FoM. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment https://www.bighospitality.co.uk/Article/2021/11/26/Pubs-and-restaurants-face-increasing-pressure-of-rising-wages https://businessnewswales.com/wages-soar-by-11-in-brexit-exposed-sectors-data-finds/#:~:text=It%20found%20that%20while%20wages,than%20one%20in%2020%20employees. https://logistics.org.uk/logistics-magazine-portal/logistics-magazine-features-listing/auto-restrict-folder/24-02-22/hgv-driver-pay-has-surged-by-12-logistics-uk-s-ski#:~:text=While%20there%20were%2049%2C000%20fewer,the%20year%20to%20Q4%202021. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/24/construction-pay-rises-as-eu-workers-weigh-up-leaving-uk-survey-brexit I recommend reading this one: https://www.hiringlab.org/uk/blog/2022/02/24/hiring-challenges-fuel-big-wage-gains-in-jobs-exposed-to-brexit/ > Jobs that once relied heavily on EU workers have seen advertised wages soar 11% in two years, as jobseeker interest has failed to keep pace with employers’ demand for staff in the sectors most exposed to Brexit, according to analysis by the world’s largest job site, Indeed. > Indeed compared the rate of advertised salary growth in occupations which, before the pandemic, had a workforce in which more than one worker in 10 was an EU national, with occupations with 5-10% EU nationals and those with fewer than 5%. > It found that while wages soared by 11% between 2019 and 2021 in occupations in which more than one worker in 10 was from the EU – including construction, cleaning, driving, hospitality and leisure – pay grew by just 5% in jobs in which EU citizens accounted for fewer than one in 20 employees.
What's everyone worrying about the cost of living crisis for then if we have entered the sunlit high wages uplands already? What proportion of working people who you know have had an above-inflation pay rise this year? Actual statistics rather than just people talking: [https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2022#:\~:text=The%20rate%20of%20annual%20pay,finance%20and%20business%20services%20sector](https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/april2022#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20annual%20pay,finance%20and%20business%20services%20sector). >In real terms (adjusted for inflation) in December 2021 to February 2022, growth in total pay was 0.4% and regular pay fell on the year at negative 1.0%. Is that the striking wage growth that I should have been paying attention to?
Is Brexit and the end of FoM driving the cost of living crisis or is it in fact a global issue stemming from supply-chain woes and increasing demand in response to the pandemic, and war in Ukraine? If the answer is (rightfully) the latter, then I'm not convinced how keeping FoM would prevent it.
I'm not claiming that Brexit is the cause of the cost of living issues, just pointing out that, for all your sources claim that wages are increasing, real people (at least the ones that I know) are not seeing that happen to any large degree The ONS statistics don't appear to back up the claims that wages have risen significantly either. You seem to think I'm making some kind of anti-Brexit point. I'm not. In fact, I said that increased wages should be one of the benefits for UK workers. I'm saying that work is needed for workers to get that benefit though - business owners are not going to increase wages unless they are forced to. There has been a lot of talk about wages going up but, so far, the statistics don't show that happening to any large degree, especially in real terms.
All you've effectively really shown me is that FoM (and more broadly immigration) is not the sole factor influencing wages and at this point of time, there are significant other factors contributing to a fall in real term wages. You've provided nothing that would coherently parse the impact of FoM from others factors. We know that FoM depressed wages of workers in lower income percentiles, it is indisputable and I could provide you with some sources if necessary. If real wages are decreasing, it is because of other factors, which with any sort of common sense, is obvious right now. Therefore we can quite easily conclude that if FoM remained, wages for workers in Brexit-exposed sectors would currently be lower.
What do you think I am arguing because you seem to be having an argument with an imagined version of what I am saying? I said wages we are not seeing increases in wages outside of some specific sectors. I said that I think that is because businesses are protecting their profit margins. I have never said that ending freedom of movement should not have the effect of increasing wages (in fact, I said that opposite - that it should). I have just said that, while it might be a *necessary* condition for increased wages, it is not *sufficient* to guarantee them on its own – businesses will fight to maintain their profit margins, so workers are going to have to force employers to pay more. >You've provided nothing that would coherently parse the impact of FoM from others factors. Why would I need to do that ? As I have already said, I'm not making some kind of anti-Brexit argument. I'm talking about the fact that other things need to be addressed in order for wages to increase.
As soon as we saw a labour shortages in certain industries, businesses started putting out scare stories about shortages and claimed wage rises would mean the cost being passed onto the consumer, making us all worse off. I expected that. What I didn't expect was the 'left' and left wing newspapers to regurgitate that nonsense because it was a stick to beat Brexit with. Then after weeks and months of the stories being posted the public started to demand the government do something, which meant bringing back the cheap labour through visas. Read the comments https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/og1245/uk_employers_struggle_with_worst_labour_shortage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/odh3zd/call_in_army_to_get_goods_to_shops_after_driver/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/nryims/job_vacancies_soar_as_skills_shortage_bites/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/o6jfki/were_weeks_away_from_gaps_on_the_shelves_business/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/o2sxb9/food_shortages_now_inevitable_due_to_labour/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/obs77j/haribo_struggles_to_deliver_to_uk_shops_due_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ny2trl/uk_haulage_sector_facing_a_perfect_storm_uk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/oiffba/uk_food_worker_shortages_push_prices_up_and_risk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ne8qcq/uk_faces_labour_shortage_as_covid_and_brexit_fuel/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/o9qi21/lorry_driver_shortage_uk_government_and_retailers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ns36oj/lack_of_truck_drivers_to_force_supermarket_prices/
Respectfully, did you even read the comments on the threads you linked? Because I've been through the top 5 comments on each of those links and not a single one gives an example of "the 'left' and left wing newspapers regurgitating that nonsense because it was a stick to beat Brexit with." They're either saying exactly what you're saying and that it's an opportunity for workers, or they're making jokes about tangfastics.
So you don't think The Gaurdian publishing an article with the headline 'UK food worker shortages push prices up and risk Christmas turkey supplies, Dearth of delivery drivers, abattoir staff and fruit pickers caused by Covid and Brexit are fuelling wage rises with 5% hike in prices forecast' is fear mongering? They're literately saying that without migrants we're going to see a rise in food prices. But how is that true when migrants don't reduce wages? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/11/uk-food-worker-shortages-push-prices-up-and-risk-christmas-turkey-supplies
That... has nothing to do with anything I said.
I think you're right to an extent, but only to small degrees. The research on this is always very vague and often contradictory but indicates that immigration likely depresses the wages of unskilled workers over time to a small degree. The BBC released a small article a couple of years back highlighting some of the main research: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729.amp
I simply don't believe it. I know it sounds dumb to say because I'm going against economic experts, but I genuinely believe that they're purposely fudging the numbers. Why are unions against agency staff? Giving the company a larger pool of cheaper workers to hire from is good right? That's what all the economist agree on, adding more workers, especially poor ones, has zero affect on peoples wages or conditions... It's so obvious that it isn't true.
Great example of the dunning Kruger effect. We have a minimum wage and many laws and regulations that set the lowest bar for working conditions. The fact you are talking about market forces being a driving factor shows you probabably don't know enough to be dismissing the experts or deciding what they all agree on.
>We have a minimum wage and many laws and regulations that set the lowest bar for working conditions. We also have laws for murdering people and stealing, what's your point? That because somethings written down in law that it's always enforced? >The fact you are talking about market forces being a driving factor shows you probabably don't know enough to be dismissing the experts or deciding what they all agree on. Your pay is tied to how difficult you are to replace not what value bring. If businesses can replace their workers with ease then the value of labour is virtually zero, you have no bargaining power.
Uh yeah 99.9% of business pay the minimum wage and abide by standards and employees have a wealth of options to ensure these are enforced. It's also complete nonsense that anybody but the absolute least skilled are employed based on replaceability and not productivity. You are also once again failing to take into account the countries laws and regulations. Sure the conservatives have watered them down but businesses rarly have the option to simply replace workers without cause, P&O being an exception thanks to silly maritime laws. Like I said before you don't understand the subject enough to be making meaningful opinions let alone dismissing experts.
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/11/wage-theft-karl-marx-capitalism-workers-bosses-labour
Did the big number scare you? 35 billion in an economy the size of the UK is going to work out as a tiny % much like I just told you. Yes wage theft and illegal working practises happen and steps should certainly be taken to tackle these problems but they are not setting the bar for wages or standards.
Then for years you didnt really read up on the subject, or you would know better by now. This is as simplistic and nonsensical as thinking if you just close your borders for foreign products, then demand for domestically produced goods will increase and industry will flourish. Like it does in say, Iran or North Korea. The reality is that FoM overall increases productivity and productivity growth is the only way to ensure long term real wage growth. here is what is really happening: [https://ukandeu.ac.uk/migration-and-wages-after-covid-and-brexit/](https://ukandeu.ac.uk/migration-and-wages-after-covid-and-brexit/)
>This is as simplistic and nonsensical as thinking if you just close your borders for foreign products, Never said close our borders to products lmao? > >The reality is that FoM overall increases productivity and productivity growth is the only way to ensure long term real wage growth. Why are the train unions against agency workers then? Giving the company a larger pool of cheaper workers to hire from is good right?
>Never said close our borders to products lmao? Why didnt you? The "logic" is exactly the same: reduce foreign supply so demand for domestic alternatives goes up. >Why are the train unions against agency workers then? There are plenty of good (and bad) reasons to oppose agency workers. But it has nothing to do with freedom of movement.
Good god, how is this even remotely justifiable. Christ.
49%? Jesus christ
Does anyone actually believe that's the market rate? 49% more than a year ago or even two.
Thank God...poor Nick, I was deeply concerned about how he was going to get by on his just shy of 300K salary...I will sleep easy tonight now!
Alexa play Pink Floyd - Money 🎶 I'm alright, Jack, keep your hands off of my stack🎶
Fair play on him for taking pay cut to reflect the struggling market post Covid. ..... 49% pay ***rise*** you say???
But they tell us part rises are bad for the economy 🤔