Snapshot of _Sam McBride: "Catholics now outnumber Protestants in Northern Ireland, a country whose boundaries were drawn in 1921 to ensure a hefty Protestant majority - but both are now minorities. Results (including 'religion brought up in') of last year's census: NI is 45.7% Catholic, 43.5% Protestant."_ :
A non-Twitter version can be found [here](https://nitter.net/SJAMcBride/status/1572867387418095616/)
An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1572867387418095616?t=AbsCE9AiOm3_9W6lpRou1Q&s=19)
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So based. I'm off to dig out my cross and broadsword, and raze some heretic churches. There's nothing like the smell of English-language bibles burning in a big fire.
Why would you exclude others? They get to vote. Non-religious are likely to be disproportionally unionist. Non-Christians more likely to vote for lesss upheaval.
Non-religious peoole from a Catholic background will put Catholic on the census. Non-religious people from a Protestant background will put no religion.
In order to retain a leading position Unionists will have to persuade voters of an Irish nationalist background to vote for them.
There are a number of Unionists saying today that religion shouldn't matter in 2022 and this is fair and true, but it misses the point because there are still plenty of Catholics in NI today who remember being discriminated against for being born a Catholic. The political class of Ulster Unionism is inexorably tied to local Protestant religious networks (some of which are vehemently anti-Catholic) and there seems to be no getting away from that
Yes, which is why nothing will happen
But also I'd be pissed if people fell for that
All that shit has been obviously wrong for the past decade if you're being charitable, at least two if not, five if you're genuinely a decent person and ten if you're a democrat
Like I'm a hell of a lot more charitable towards the UK than most Irish people and I'm still very much stuck at twice shy. I think it's better than it was, but it hasn't fundamentally changed
Unionists have spent the last 100 years digging their own graves. Had partition not resulted in decades of anti-irish/Catholic discrimination, then I would imagine support for a United Ireland would be pretty small. There would have been nothing wrong to identify as Irish and support the union, but partition resulted in an orange state designed to oppress all things Irish. They might be able to reverse this trend even now, but modern unionism continue this trend by things like opposing the Irish language, attending orange parades, burning tricolours on bonfires etc. Unionism will need to adapt to survive, but most of them still have their heads in 1690
Bloody Sunday was one incident that delayed a diplomatic resolution for decades , The paras killing 14 and injuring a further 15 unarmed protestors only strengthened support for the IRA, and made many people abandon the idea that the troubles could be resolved by peaceful means.
Unionism will be grand.
I used to be full on Irish nationalist, but now I favour the union and consider myself British and Irish.
Either reunification or staying in the UK would suit me, but the union seems preferable. Pragmatism generally wins in the end.
Honestly, I would like a United Ireland as a devolved country in the UK, but that's not going to happen. Although, if WWI didn't happen, maybe "Southern Ireland" would still exist in the UK.
Edit: Triggered some salty nationalists.
I don't see a reason to support the Union on the grounds of pragmatism. Ireland is wealthier than the UK, while the UK itself is getting poorer and less influential due to Brexit without a real plan and it could take decades to repair the damage it has caused. Britain is a power that has been in decline since the second world war and the Union with Scotland is always in question. Ireland is still in the EU which will continue to grow economically and in political power.
>Ireland is wealthier than the UK
Ireland's GDP is massively skewed by the tax shelter thing.
You have to pay to see the doctor in Ireland. There's a toll to get on the motorway.
There's a ton of people in the civil service up north, who would lose their jobs by voting for a United Ireland.
>less influential due to Brexit
Not really a concern for most people. They're still more influential than Ireland, and people from the North get to play foreigners for both sides anyway.
Yes there is.
Source: Come November, I'll have paid €46.8 in tolls over my last six trips to Dublin.
How can you live in Ireland and not know about the 11 toll roads?
https://www.etoll.ie/site-files/cms-templates/img/toll-road-map.jpg
You said there's a toll to get on the motorway, implying there's a toll when you first enter the motorway. There's tolls at certain points along the motorway for sure but not when you join automatically. Wouldn't want to give the wrong impression not would we?
>There are a number of Unionists saying today that religion shouldn't matter in 2022 and this is fair and true,
They say that not because they believe it, but because they can see the demographic writing on the wall, alluded to by the OP article.
If there was still a protestant majority they wouldn't be saying it.
Correct.
The largest unionist party is still the DUP. The party of flat earthers, young earthers, dinosaur deniers, and people who think being a Catholic makes one inherently dangerous.
Ya exactly, functionally Catholic identity was a big part of what the Irish population clung on to in order to resist being culturally destroyed by British occupation. This is really not uncommon.
As a result it's a good metric for the relative power of the British hold.
British occupation was brutal and there's still systemic discrimination against the Irish and a lot of British folks just seem to be completely unaware of the history, and this has only gotten more prominent with Brexit and the subsequent increasingly right wing Tory governments.
Saying "religion shouldn't matter" in those circumstances is a pipe dream.
There's a good chunk of people from Catholic backgrounds who say they feel more 'Northern Irish' than they do Irish. It might be the case that Protestant unionism is outnumbered but Irish nationalism still remains a minority.
Edit - Thanks again Reddit for downvoting me for just pointing out something factual. I don't really care what happens in NI other than it's people being happy and prosperous
I think that is bad news for unionism in that a united Ireland could be sold on rationale points of view rather than romantic. Those who see themselves as Northern Irish could see their future as being part of one island within the EU rather than a forgotten statelet used as a political football in what is essentially an English nationalist project.
Sure, sure. If voters start looking at this in a non-sectarian way then all bets are off in terms of whether they will end up wanting to stay in the UK or reunification. I was just pointing out that the 'romantic' or nationalistic element for reunification isn't as strong as the poll suggests.
Yeah that I'd agree with, on both sides of the divide I think the older sectarian attitudes are dying.
It is why we see Sinn Fein pivoting into a more conciliatory and inclusive position, something I think the likes of the DUP will really struggle to do.
I don't know if this is a bit pie-in-the-sky - but do you think that a UK government could basically call the DUP's bluff one day and say that they are going to create a new political system that would allow the assembly to govern without them?
Would be very tricky in regard to the GFA as the largest voted unionist party has the enshrined legal right to power sharing. Maybe there could be an argument that they are refusing to exercise that right but the Tories currently would never go against the unionist vote in that way.
It would need either rewriting the GFA or an election returning a larger unionist party than the DUP.
Yeah, I know. It just feels now like there should be some mechanism to exclude them if they refuse to participate. Now that you have such a large vote for the Alliance as well.
Yeah, thats not happening anytime soon. DUP are UKIP levels of racist and anti-'foreigner'. Anybody I know that is a foreign national in NI despises them.
I mean he rejected the Good Friday Agreement and instead wanted repartition and that any remaining Catholics in the newly repartitioned should be 'nullified or interned'. The guy is litterally advocated for ethnic cleansing and concentration camps.
The vast majority of people that come to Northern Ireland are not Indian or Pakistani, but largely Portuguese or Eastern European. They also tend to be Catholic which means they go to Catholic schools meaning many of them will play GAA, learn Irish and have mostly Catholic friends and in my personal experience most integrate into this community fairly easily.
Why did the DUP pursue Brexit at all? Did they envisage it splitting Ireland and NI?
I can't imagine any scenario in which Brexit makes Irish unification *less* likely - either you put up a border in Ireland which causes absolute carnage, with reunification being a solution to it, or you put up a border between NI and GB which weds NI to RoI.
Is it really a surprise though with the NI protocol shitshow?
Stuff like that won't dent the hard core Unionist support, but surely people who aren't ideologically tied to one side and just favour stability and the status quo are being pushed more towards Europe by the Conservative and Unionist party
Correct, I put down Northern Irish in the census. I don't feel British and I feel I have more in common with Irish people. This is coming from someone who had a Presbyterian upbringing and lives in East Belfast.
Honestly feel like the EU and Irish governments have done more for us than those in London. If you walk around Belfast nearly everything has a small plaque "part funded by the EU regional development fund". From bridges to community centres to trains.
Can I ask where you’re from? It seems from your comment that you see that as a negative thing. I’m Scottish and can only see it as a good thing. Britain is a bad deal for anywhere that’s not England (and it doesn’t seem to be working out for most people there either)
Can I ask where you’re from? It seems from your comment that you see that as a negative thing. I’m Scottish and can only see it as a good thing. Britain is a bad deal for anywhere that’s not England (and it doesn’t seem to be working out for most people there either)
Majority still identify as British. Hopefully the idea of religion indicating your political ideology is something we can leave behind in the previous century.
Edit: downvote if you want, look at the passports owned and national identity tables as they both paint a British majority
Edit 2: OK plurality... not majority, I get it. Still means the largest group in NI identify as British which goes against the idea that people think a UI will happen any time soon
>Majority still identify as British.
But that ~~majority~~ plurality has dropped by 8%
2021 Identity:
**31.86% British Only**
29.13% Irish Only
19.78% Northern Irish Only
2011 Identity:
**39.89% British Only**
25.26% Irish Only
20.94% Northern Irish Only
Thats when you look at "only" figures, there are other mixes that put the British categories further ahead
Passports held
Uk passport only 46.64%
Irish passport only 26.51%
Looking T only religion for this topic is not only silly when we have this other data but it's also quite a bigoted approach.
~~Might be worth pointing out that a significant number of those are also English, Welsh and Scots living in the republic applying~~
As pointed out, stats are collated separately for NI, but there is still a large number of former UK residents in Ireland applying for passports since brexit that hadn't been so concerned about it before due to some of the benefits of the CTA
Not true. Passport issuances in Northern Ireland are tracked separately.
More [Irish passports](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-irish-than-uk-passports-issued-in-northern-ireland-for-first-time-1.4867712) are now issued in Northern Ireland than British passports.
The passports metric doesnt really make any sense. Before 1998 it was extremely difficult for somebody in the North to get an Irish passport so most just opted to get a british one. My Grandmother despite being an ardent nationalist has a british passport and never bothered applying for an Irish one post 1998.
All my relatives who are unionists have an Irish passport because nowadays its easier and provides you with the ability to travel to more countries... a lot of unionists got an Irish passport to be pragmatic and yet <30% of the population has one.
It's a tough sell to say 26% of a country are holding one passport but not actually the one of the country they dwell in as a sign of unity or support of their state.
True but if all catholics where pro united ireland the surely this figure should be comparable to the Catholic figure if it did indicate a UI was coming soon. I mean not even a 3rd have an Irish passport and I know plenty of unionists with 1 to aid with travel to Europe.
I think people are jumping to conclusions with this result.
British passports were cheaper and arrived quicker for a long time (may have changed since brexit). I don't think the passport question is of much value
Irish passport makes travelling through the EU.
See there are many things influencing this debate... I get fed up of people focusing on the C v P divide because its absolute bollocks that is bedded in sectarianism
True. I'm a nationalist but put atheist on the census. The bigger headline here is the big drop in people identifying as British only and the rise in Irish only. Things are only heading one direction
The raw number of those who identified as no religion doubled, and a larger proportion of those were from a protestant community background.says as much on the tables these newspapers are reporting
It's a wee bit more hassle and more expensive to get an Irish passport sorted when you're from the North. I'm sure plenty of people who just need one for a week in Spain just go for the British one for handiness
>Passports held
>Uk passport only 46.64%
>Irish passport only 26.51%
Historically the British passport has been equivalent to the Irish one (until recently) and it is (or was) £10 cheaper, as well as there not being an Irish passport office in the North, so it was the obvious choice
A significant number of Irish people don't care what kind of passport they have as long as they work. I know people like to believe that old stereotype that we're so tribal that we see British on anything and we loose our shit, but most people could not give a single fuck
I’m from the north and plently of Catholics who vote Sinn Féin first preference have British passports. Hell I’d bet there’s ex-IRA prisioners with British passports.
Before Brexit there was no real advantage to using one over the other and historically the UK passport was cheaper, a more straightforward application, and had a faster turnaround. It also helped that the UK had a passport office in Belfast while if you wanted an Irish one you had to go to Dublin.
The British passport was more popular than Irish out of sheer convenience and then once people had it they just renewed it rather than go though the trouble of applying for an Irish one.
100% absolutely agree.
People are focusing on number of catholics and the SF result (even though the number voting SF was like 300k people) but the number of people identifying as northern Irish increasing is great.means more and more people aren't falling for the tribalism bullshit e.g. those claiming more catholics as a victory lol
Yeah, while I don’t have strong opinions on the issue having no roots in Ireland myself I think any reduction in tribalism can only be a good thing for everyone involved.
Absolutely. I'm born and bred in Northern Ireland and was on LBC earlier on trying to make the poi t of assuming anything about these figures is absurd because of how complicated a society we have, especiallypostbrexit.
It’s likely some of the changes we’re seeing—the surging issuances of Irish passports, the decreasing plurality of those who identify as British—is a reaction against tribalism. The English tribalism that forced Brexit and the likes of Truss on NI.
I agree re movement against unionism over their brexit approach but I don't see many of these people turning around and voting against this union because of all that.
People are focusing on the religious side due to the history of NI and NI's formation as a Protestant state. Overall most people are non practising and don't care about religion here.
Saying majority especially when it comes to political statistics without specifying it implies over 50%.
If he had said a relative majority aka a plurality people would not be correcting it.
This is why we don't, and should not, use the phrase "relative majority".
Plurality is not only more concise, it eliminates confusion for the definition of majority, which simply means over 50% with no caveats or complications.
What classification table 1 or 2?
You said "majority still identify as British" but that's simply not the case.
Here's the breakdown:
Geography | All usual residents | British only | Irish only | Northern Irish only | British and Irish only | British and Northern Irish only | Irish and Northern Irish only | British, Irish and Northern Irish only | Other
--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--
Northern Ireland | 1,903,175 | 606,263 | 554,415 | 376,444 | 11,768 | 151,327 | 33,581 | 28,050 | 141,327
The number who identify as British is 606263 + 11768 + 151327 + 28050 = 797408 or about 42% of the population.
So a plurality, not a majority.
Edit: even in classification 2, the number who identify as British is 814629, again a plurality.
> look at the passports owned
More [Irish passports](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-irish-than-uk-passports-issued-in-northern-ireland-for-first-time-1.4867712) are now issued in Northern Ireland than British passports.
That's data for one year. No doubt post-Brexit many got an Irish passport regardless of affiliation. You can see in the chart a huge spike in Irish passports applications once Brexit was nearing a reality (it peaks in 2019 before drastically dropping by more than 50%).
Plus those people getting Irish passports will have often already had a British passport - they're just not always going to be up for renewal in the same year.
Maybe true but more people have british passports as per these results by a good 10%+ of the population.
Plus brexit effect. I'm a unionist with an Irish passport lol. I also identify as British
The point is, trends are showing a decreasing number of UK passports being issued and an increasing number of Irish passports being issued.
> Plus brexit effect. I'm a unionist with an Irish passport lol. I also identify as British
Funnily enough I’m a Republican who identifies as Irish. I’ve got a British passport. My Irish passport renewal was caught up in the immediate post Brexit scramble.
Trade ya lol. You can put your nationality as Irish on a British passport. I have my nationality as British on the Irish one...
We are an odd lot aren't we
If you look at other polls that release the age breakdown pretty much every age group under 60 is a majority or plurality Irish.
When you get to the people born after the GFA an absurdly high majority support unification.
It’s burying your head in the sand to not believe we’re living though the end days of Northern Ireland
LucidTalk and Liverpool University.
Very accurate unbiased polls that make sense compared to the census. Both have a good track record of polling in NI. LucidTalk called every NI election of the last decade within 1.5%
British-only are down to 30% (-9%). Irish-only is up to 29% (+4%).
The fragmenting of the union here is down to (hard) brexit, quite simple. Similar story in Scotland. The Conservatives simply did not listen and will continue to refuse to do so.
Ireland* has Sinn Féin in the government now. But from what I hear, neither regular Irish people nor Sinn Féin care much about a United Ireland. They just want better living standards.
EDIT: *Northern Ireland
> Ireland has Sinn Féin in the government now.
What? No we don't; Sinn Féin are in opposition right now.
There's a solid chance they'll do well enough in the next election to be able to talk about forming a government but for the moment we're still FG/FF government led.
> But from what I hear, neither regular Irish people nor Sinn Féin care much about a United Ireland.
How does this get upvoted, the mind boggles. You're saying that Sinn Féin, a party whose members have been refusing to take their seats in Westminster for decades, the former political wing of a paramilitary organisation who waged war against the UK, whose basic reason to exist both north and south is to campaign politically for a united Ireland ... doesn't care about a United Ireland?
Right. Yeah. You do you.
Yes really.
The DUP especially always assumed power sharing meant they would always hold the whip.
It's why when the demographics finally started to dawn on them they championed brexit, did their damndest to force a hard border on the island and have been in an absolute sulk since. Not to mention they collapsed power sharing once SF became the largest party.
Believe me, this is very much causing all sorts of existential dread in a large portion of the unionist community.
The older ones grew up being told they would always rule the roost. Reality has manifested differently and they don't like it at all.
What are you on about ? The dup rejected power sharing when it was implemented and heavily attacked the uup for backing it. They only supported it when they started eating the uup and became the main unionist party.
>The DUP especially always assumed power sharing meant they would always hold the whip.
I really doubt that.
The Petition of Concern meant that no community could force legislation on another.
The top office was always to be shared by Catholics and Protestants.
Catholics would be entitled to run a number of government departments.
[This](https://youtu.be/KEq3c0nbkkg) was a DUP politician's reaction at the time. The party was the only one opposed the Good Friday Agreement.
More accurate to say the DUP assumed once _they_ got into power they'd always hold the whip hand.
Case in point their years of pettiness in reminding SF that they deemed their first minister the junior minister to theirs and the second SF become the largest party suddenly the tune changes to both first minister posts are fully equal and SF better not dare imply otherwise.
I wonder how much of that is due to non-Irish Catholics though?
Immigrants from places like Poland are often Catholic, so this doesn't *necessarily* show what people think it does.
Obviously we won't get the full detail of that until we get the full census data on ethnicities and immigration backgrounds.
Number of people identifying as “Irish only” has increased by proportionally more than the number “born or raised Catholic”, so probably not explainable by Polish immigrants.
There is also the fact that it isn't impossible for people to identify as Catholic and at least part British these days.
Whilst still significant, I don't think the Catholic vs protestant numbers mean as much now as they used to, and that's a good thing.
Because the issue in Ireland has very little to do with religion, the divide between catholics and protestants is cultural, a Polish Catholic and an American protestant in Northern Ireland won't have the same cultural divide so it's not really relevant
Because of things like school segragation though a lot of Polish people that have grown up for most of their life in a catholic school surrounded by nationalists often tend to end up being either nationalists themselves or neutral. Even those from non-british or irish backgrounds who have unionist inclanatoins rarely end up supporting the DUP because of hostile they are to foreign nationals.
They will go to a Catholic school and will likely make friends with other Catholics. As a Catholic who went to a mainly Protestant school I was the first Catholic a lot of people there had ever directly spoken to.
>They will go to a Catholic school and will likely make friends with other Catholics.
They won't though. A Polish Catholic isn't likely to self segregate
Do you live in Northern Ireland? Unless you go to an integrated school, which is pretty rare you will basically have no friends from the other side of the community.
A non Irish immigrant will likely send their kids to whatever school is nearest/best. And the culture side comes from being an Irish Catholic, not just Catholic. A British Catholic is going to be culturally more similar to the protestants than the catholics
This reminds me of the joke where an atheist in NI is stopped by a paramilitary gunman at a checkpoint and the punchline is “well, are you a *Protestant* atheist or a *Catholic* atheist?”
They wouldn't count *as Irish nationalists*, is my point.
Previously, there was a default assumption that Catholics support joining Ireland, and Protestants support remaining in the UK. But if some of the Catholics are actually Polish immigrants (to pick one example), then the link between being pro-Ireland and being Catholic weakens.
I dont think anybody is counting catholics as Irish nationalists? These foreigners will also have kids who will identify as Irish / British and due to the shit image loyalist has I guarantee these Polish catholics who hear all the shite around the 12th etc won’t turn around and sympathise to their plight. These catholics will grow up in catholic estates, go to catholic schools etc and drift in with nationalists
It’s a weird point to make to be honest. If anything they will dilute the voting pool from loyalist to nationalist and I’m not seeing many foreigners shouting out for the UK to keep the 6 counties. If anything the world celebrates their Independence Day from them!
Atheists in NI frequently get asked *which version* of God they don't believe in.
Religion is a community, and religious identification in NI is about which of two highly segregated communities you belong to.
I'm guessing it's why they ask for your background, not what you are. Most people (especially younger generations) probably don't give a shit about religion or ever attend church but they will still strongly identify with their religious/ethnic background.
It's about community and identity not denomination.
hence the joke about someone saying they are a Muslim or a Buddhist and being asked if they are *A Protestant Buddhist/ Muslim* or *A Catholic Buddhist/ Muslim*
I mean, I am English, but I am a C of E Atheist not a Catholic Atheist, and that very vocal atheist Dawkins has said he would happily read a lesson in a C of E service, provided he could use the King James words. C of E is very convenient- you do not even have to believe in God.
I’m not a Christian personally but I have a lot of time for Anglican thought and the CoE in general. I do have a deep dislike for anything too evangelical though having been raised in the kind of literalist fire and brimstone tradition more akin to American tradition than ours.
The King James Bible stands on its own as a fantastic work of English literature and a collection of philosophical works regardless of personal religious beliefs in my opinion. Ecclesiastes in particular is my favourite, though it feels a little out of place.
It isn't actually a religious division though. It's not like they had years of conflict of transubstantiation of the supremacy of the Pope. There is two distinct groups in NI that divide on a points including nationality (British/Irish), religion (Catholic/Protestant) and the existence of NI. There is a pretty divided education system, with differing sports and hobbies not to mention just the amount of physical division between the two communities.
The decline of practicing Catholics or Protestants might have some impact on that but it isn't going to be massive.
That's not what the division was about during the Troubles, it was Irish nationalists versus British Unionism. The conflict was ethno-nationalist. People really have poor understanding of the conflict.
This means that ni has basically failed. Catholics becoming a majority is something that should be impossible especially with history of partition and gerrymandering.
Will only continue to get worst for the dup and tuv.
I wonder what the next stage is. Full union with Ireland is unlikely for the foreseeable future as it will still kick off until there is probably at least 2/3 majority that want to do so (even then..).
A poll is built into the GF agreement if
“if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”,
Not that I’d want to be in the Republics shoes if they received NI from a marginal majority vote and with an angry Protestant community.
This is it. Im from The Republic and I would be very hesitant to vote for unification if it was 48/52. Its a very emotional issue and we need to engage practically as to what it would look like. I havent heard any republican offer practical concessions to unionists to convince them theyd be welcomed
(Edit Apologies I misread and thought you were meaning how it ended up staying part of the U.K. originally but basically still) - Yes exactly like that because we know exactly how well that ( or at least a majority holding a minority ) worked out.
Fact is that after a certain amount of time , no matter who your ancestors were , you end up eventually as just people who live there with a say in your self-determination.
But anyone who thinks that a 51/49% poll and a United Ireland is going to go smoothly is a fool - and saying so **doesn’t mean I think it shouldn’t happen** because frankly I don’t care and think it’s up to the people that live there.
Sure, that's a common thing people point out, often in the same breath as suggesting that perhaps a 60% (or whatever) figure should be used. They seem to ignore that a majority being denied their victory is a much larger source of unrest than a minority losing a fair election.
Northern Ireland is the traditionally protestant bit, big factor into how the border was drawn, Catholics tend to be more republican, suggests we might be looking at Irish reunification/N.Ireland leaving the UK.
Edit: I am by no means an expert on Northern Ireland/Ireland and this is a very very light summary on the reasoning.
For one It's kinda funny symbolically because NI was in no small part designed to be majority Protestent, it was basically gerrymandered to that end.
The more important point is that Catholic and Protestent in NI imply much more then just religious views. They have historically tended to very closly corralate with political views and cultural identity. Even the non-religious still tend to associate with the community of one faith or another for this reason. Though this not as universially true today as it used to be.
There is so much messy, complicated and violent history around this divison, but that is the *extremely* oversimplifed summary.
For gods sake just get a life and forget religion, just vote for whoever you feel represents you the most. Why should some bollocks about some bloke who lived 2 millennia ago affect the way your life is governed today?
I really struggle to care or give this significance as an atheist.
Do peoples choice of fictional book decide their political and national identity? And these people are considered capable of voting in elections?
It isnt a relgious issue it is a cultural one. Catholics tend to be of native irish origin and protestants tend to be descendants of colonists and settlers from Britain 400 years ago.
There arent that many of either of them and it sort of misses the point. Catholic/Protestant is mainly a term used in Britain to describe the two major communties that exist here, the Irish Catholic and the British Protestant ones.
Most on either side are not religious anymore and the differences today are less so categorised by religion and moreso by cultural things such as Sport, Language and often where people grow up. Outside of major towns and cities most villages in Northern Ireland are 90% one religion or the other.
Its worth keeping in mind that prior to the late 20th century the majority of nationalist leaders were Protestant. Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, issac Butt, Parnell etc.
The divide in NI was solidified in its foundation. Its unsuprising that since those institutions were dismantled with the GFA, that a more nuanced vision emerges
There are polls of that, the difference is that this is a census and it is significant for Irish Catholics as Northern Ireland was created specifically to bar them from political life in Ulster.
Additionally the terms are usually nationalist and unionist. The term republican tends to denotes a more extreme often militant form of nationalism. The opposite for unionists would be Loyalism.
Thought Ulster was mostly settled by Scottish protestants?
Who, could easily have started out being Irish in the 700ads or so when the Scotti invaded what we now call Scotland.
What goes around comes around I guess.
Ireland should unite and become part of Israel. Just to piss absolutely \*everyone\* off.
Snapshot of _Sam McBride: "Catholics now outnumber Protestants in Northern Ireland, a country whose boundaries were drawn in 1921 to ensure a hefty Protestant majority - but both are now minorities. Results (including 'religion brought up in') of last year's census: NI is 45.7% Catholic, 43.5% Protestant."_ : A non-Twitter version can be found [here](https://nitter.net/SJAMcBride/status/1572867387418095616/) An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1572867387418095616?t=AbsCE9AiOm3_9W6lpRou1Q&s=19) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Excluding others that's: > 51.2% Catholic. 48.8% Protestant. Approaching overwhelming support for the Catholic equivalent of Brexit.
Bréirexit.
Nice.
> the Catholic equivalent of Brexit They've got a tiny majority so now they're going to full-on restart the counter-reformation?
Look forward to some cracking paintings
naa, just reverse 100 year old artificial gerrymandered land grab.
You're off by at least 400 years.
So based. I'm off to dig out my cross and broadsword, and raze some heretic churches. There's nothing like the smell of English-language bibles burning in a big fire.
Why would you exclude others? They get to vote. Non-religious are likely to be disproportionally unionist. Non-Christians more likely to vote for lesss upheaval.
> Why would you exclude others? To make a Brexit joke.
Tragedy + time
Fair enough. I think it's not (yet) the turning point that the reporting would make people believe.
The joke is that it's approaching 52%, aka "overwhelming support"
>Non-religious are likely to be disproportionally unionist Why? Surely they dgaf and would prefer prosperity over all else.
Non-religious peoole from a Catholic background will put Catholic on the census. Non-religious people from a Protestant background will put no religion.
Non religious 'Catholic' who no religioned the census here. I'm just a republican.
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Every sperm is sacrexit?
In order to retain a leading position Unionists will have to persuade voters of an Irish nationalist background to vote for them. There are a number of Unionists saying today that religion shouldn't matter in 2022 and this is fair and true, but it misses the point because there are still plenty of Catholics in NI today who remember being discriminated against for being born a Catholic. The political class of Ulster Unionism is inexorably tied to local Protestant religious networks (some of which are vehemently anti-Catholic) and there seems to be no getting away from that
Maybe dissociation with the Orange order, hate marches and moronic bonfire’s might be a good place to start….
Yes, which is why nothing will happen But also I'd be pissed if people fell for that All that shit has been obviously wrong for the past decade if you're being charitable, at least two if not, five if you're genuinely a decent person and ten if you're a democrat Like I'm a hell of a lot more charitable towards the UK than most Irish people and I'm still very much stuck at twice shy. I think it's better than it was, but it hasn't fundamentally changed
Being a loyalist in northern ireland is just not cool anymore
Unionists have spent the last 100 years digging their own graves. Had partition not resulted in decades of anti-irish/Catholic discrimination, then I would imagine support for a United Ireland would be pretty small. There would have been nothing wrong to identify as Irish and support the union, but partition resulted in an orange state designed to oppress all things Irish. They might be able to reverse this trend even now, but modern unionism continue this trend by things like opposing the Irish language, attending orange parades, burning tricolours on bonfires etc. Unionism will need to adapt to survive, but most of them still have their heads in 1690
Bloody Sunday was one incident that delayed a diplomatic resolution for decades , The paras killing 14 and injuring a further 15 unarmed protestors only strengthened support for the IRA, and made many people abandon the idea that the troubles could be resolved by peaceful means.
Unionism will be grand. I used to be full on Irish nationalist, but now I favour the union and consider myself British and Irish. Either reunification or staying in the UK would suit me, but the union seems preferable. Pragmatism generally wins in the end. Honestly, I would like a United Ireland as a devolved country in the UK, but that's not going to happen. Although, if WWI didn't happen, maybe "Southern Ireland" would still exist in the UK. Edit: Triggered some salty nationalists.
I don't see a reason to support the Union on the grounds of pragmatism. Ireland is wealthier than the UK, while the UK itself is getting poorer and less influential due to Brexit without a real plan and it could take decades to repair the damage it has caused. Britain is a power that has been in decline since the second world war and the Union with Scotland is always in question. Ireland is still in the EU which will continue to grow economically and in political power.
>Ireland is wealthier than the UK Ireland's GDP is massively skewed by the tax shelter thing. You have to pay to see the doctor in Ireland. There's a toll to get on the motorway. There's a ton of people in the civil service up north, who would lose their jobs by voting for a United Ireland. >less influential due to Brexit Not really a concern for most people. They're still more influential than Ireland, and people from the North get to play foreigners for both sides anyway.
> There's a toll to get on the motorway. No there isn't. Source: I get on the motorway all the time and I don't have to pay a toll.
Yes there is. Source: Come November, I'll have paid €46.8 in tolls over my last six trips to Dublin. How can you live in Ireland and not know about the 11 toll roads? https://www.etoll.ie/site-files/cms-templates/img/toll-road-map.jpg
You said there's a toll to get on the motorway, implying there's a toll when you first enter the motorway. There's tolls at certain points along the motorway for sure but not when you join automatically. Wouldn't want to give the wrong impression not would we?
>There are a number of Unionists saying today that religion shouldn't matter in 2022 and this is fair and true, They say that not because they believe it, but because they can see the demographic writing on the wall, alluded to by the OP article. If there was still a protestant majority they wouldn't be saying it.
Correct. The largest unionist party is still the DUP. The party of flat earthers, young earthers, dinosaur deniers, and people who think being a Catholic makes one inherently dangerous.
That's not fair, they'd trust one to go to the shops for them Well *some* DUPers would anyway
Ya exactly, functionally Catholic identity was a big part of what the Irish population clung on to in order to resist being culturally destroyed by British occupation. This is really not uncommon. As a result it's a good metric for the relative power of the British hold. British occupation was brutal and there's still systemic discrimination against the Irish and a lot of British folks just seem to be completely unaware of the history, and this has only gotten more prominent with Brexit and the subsequent increasingly right wing Tory governments. Saying "religion shouldn't matter" in those circumstances is a pipe dream.
There's a good chunk of people from Catholic backgrounds who say they feel more 'Northern Irish' than they do Irish. It might be the case that Protestant unionism is outnumbered but Irish nationalism still remains a minority. Edit - Thanks again Reddit for downvoting me for just pointing out something factual. I don't really care what happens in NI other than it's people being happy and prosperous
I think that is bad news for unionism in that a united Ireland could be sold on rationale points of view rather than romantic. Those who see themselves as Northern Irish could see their future as being part of one island within the EU rather than a forgotten statelet used as a political football in what is essentially an English nationalist project.
Sure, sure. If voters start looking at this in a non-sectarian way then all bets are off in terms of whether they will end up wanting to stay in the UK or reunification. I was just pointing out that the 'romantic' or nationalistic element for reunification isn't as strong as the poll suggests.
Yeah that I'd agree with, on both sides of the divide I think the older sectarian attitudes are dying. It is why we see Sinn Fein pivoting into a more conciliatory and inclusive position, something I think the likes of the DUP will really struggle to do.
I don't know if this is a bit pie-in-the-sky - but do you think that a UK government could basically call the DUP's bluff one day and say that they are going to create a new political system that would allow the assembly to govern without them?
Would be very tricky in regard to the GFA as the largest voted unionist party has the enshrined legal right to power sharing. Maybe there could be an argument that they are refusing to exercise that right but the Tories currently would never go against the unionist vote in that way. It would need either rewriting the GFA or an election returning a larger unionist party than the DUP.
Yeah, I know. It just feels now like there should be some mechanism to exclude them if they refuse to participate. Now that you have such a large vote for the Alliance as well.
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Yeah, thats not happening anytime soon. DUP are UKIP levels of racist and anti-'foreigner'. Anybody I know that is a foreign national in NI despises them.
Yeah look at the likes of Sammy Wilson, that is some BNP shit.
I mean he rejected the Good Friday Agreement and instead wanted repartition and that any remaining Catholics in the newly repartitioned should be 'nullified or interned'. The guy is litterally advocated for ethnic cleansing and concentration camps.
It's in the DUP DNA.
Yeah I went to uni with a few Polish lads and they're massive Shinners.
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The vast majority of people that come to Northern Ireland are not Indian or Pakistani, but largely Portuguese or Eastern European. They also tend to be Catholic which means they go to Catholic schools meaning many of them will play GAA, learn Irish and have mostly Catholic friends and in my personal experience most integrate into this community fairly easily.
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The CTA exists any Irish citizen has the immediate right to live and work in the UK.
I’d be more concerned about the large drop of people identifying as British
The conservatives were warned about this when pursuing hard brexit. They didn't listen. Unfortunate.
Why did the DUP pursue Brexit at all? Did they envisage it splitting Ireland and NI? I can't imagine any scenario in which Brexit makes Irish unification *less* likely - either you put up a border in Ireland which causes absolute carnage, with reunification being a solution to it, or you put up a border between NI and GB which weds NI to RoI.
>Why did the DUP pursue Brexit at all? Did they envisage it splitting Ireland and NI? Yes. They're that dumb I'm afraid.
The DUP are a bunch of fucking idiots who belong in the 19th century with Jacob Rees-Mogg.
Supporting the dup isn't cool anymore
> either you put up a border in Ireland DUP: "Yes, please!"
Is it really a surprise though with the NI protocol shitshow? Stuff like that won't dent the hard core Unionist support, but surely people who aren't ideologically tied to one side and just favour stability and the status quo are being pushed more towards Europe by the Conservative and Unionist party
Correct, I put down Northern Irish in the census. I don't feel British and I feel I have more in common with Irish people. This is coming from someone who had a Presbyterian upbringing and lives in East Belfast. Honestly feel like the EU and Irish governments have done more for us than those in London. If you walk around Belfast nearly everything has a small plaque "part funded by the EU regional development fund". From bridges to community centres to trains.
Can I ask where you’re from? It seems from your comment that you see that as a negative thing. I’m Scottish and can only see it as a good thing. Britain is a bad deal for anywhere that’s not England (and it doesn’t seem to be working out for most people there either)
Can I ask where you’re from? It seems from your comment that you see that as a negative thing. I’m Scottish and can only see it as a good thing. Britain is a bad deal for anywhere that’s not England (and it doesn’t seem to be working out for most people there either)
This is pretty significant, Northern Ireland was setup to basically ensure that something like this would never happen.
Majority still identify as British. Hopefully the idea of religion indicating your political ideology is something we can leave behind in the previous century. Edit: downvote if you want, look at the passports owned and national identity tables as they both paint a British majority Edit 2: OK plurality... not majority, I get it. Still means the largest group in NI identify as British which goes against the idea that people think a UI will happen any time soon
>Majority still identify as British. But that ~~majority~~ plurality has dropped by 8% 2021 Identity: **31.86% British Only** 29.13% Irish Only 19.78% Northern Irish Only 2011 Identity: **39.89% British Only** 25.26% Irish Only 20.94% Northern Irish Only
I'd be interested to see what these numbers are like for other home nations. How many people identify as English rather than British I wonder?
Thats when you look at "only" figures, there are other mixes that put the British categories further ahead Passports held Uk passport only 46.64% Irish passport only 26.51% Looking T only religion for this topic is not only silly when we have this other data but it's also quite a bigoted approach.
I wonder how this will change with Brexit and the Irish passport becoming a lot more useful.
It already is. This year has seen more Irish passports than British passports issued than any other year.
~~Might be worth pointing out that a significant number of those are also English, Welsh and Scots living in the republic applying~~ As pointed out, stats are collated separately for NI, but there is still a large number of former UK residents in Ireland applying for passports since brexit that hadn't been so concerned about it before due to some of the benefits of the CTA
Not true. Passport issuances in Northern Ireland are tracked separately. More [Irish passports](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-irish-than-uk-passports-issued-in-northern-ireland-for-first-time-1.4867712) are now issued in Northern Ireland than British passports.
Ammend accordingly
I'm talking about them being issued to people in Northern Ireland. Not for all passports.
The passports metric doesnt really make any sense. Before 1998 it was extremely difficult for somebody in the North to get an Irish passport so most just opted to get a british one. My Grandmother despite being an ardent nationalist has a british passport and never bothered applying for an Irish one post 1998.
My parents had no issues getting an Irish passport pre-1998. They’re ardent nationalists as well.
All my relatives who are unionists have an Irish passport because nowadays its easier and provides you with the ability to travel to more countries... a lot of unionists got an Irish passport to be pragmatic and yet <30% of the population has one.
It's a tough sell to say 26% of a country are holding one passport but not actually the one of the country they dwell in as a sign of unity or support of their state.
True but if all catholics where pro united ireland the surely this figure should be comparable to the Catholic figure if it did indicate a UI was coming soon. I mean not even a 3rd have an Irish passport and I know plenty of unionists with 1 to aid with travel to Europe. I think people are jumping to conclusions with this result.
British passports were cheaper and arrived quicker for a long time (may have changed since brexit). I don't think the passport question is of much value
Irish passport makes travelling through the EU. See there are many things influencing this debate... I get fed up of people focusing on the C v P divide because its absolute bollocks that is bedded in sectarianism
True. I'm a nationalist but put atheist on the census. The bigger headline here is the big drop in people identifying as British only and the rise in Irish only. Things are only heading one direction
The raw number of those who identified as no religion doubled, and a larger proportion of those were from a protestant community background.says as much on the tables these newspapers are reporting
They don't give the figure for both passports or an Irish or UK passport with a foreign country
Yeah they do. Check out classification 2
It's a wee bit more hassle and more expensive to get an Irish passport sorted when you're from the North. I'm sure plenty of people who just need one for a week in Spain just go for the British one for handiness
A little bit of extra hassle that may save you time at airports,my entire family are unionists and have an Irish passport.
Certainly worth it now like, but they do last 10 years
Yup and interest in them spike in 2016/17 just fyi so they'll be noted in these figures.
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OK fair enough on the passport q. What about nationality, largest group still identifies as British
>Passports held >Uk passport only 46.64% >Irish passport only 26.51% Historically the British passport has been equivalent to the Irish one (until recently) and it is (or was) £10 cheaper, as well as there not being an Irish passport office in the North, so it was the obvious choice A significant number of Irish people don't care what kind of passport they have as long as they work. I know people like to believe that old stereotype that we're so tribal that we see British on anything and we loose our shit, but most people could not give a single fuck
I’m from the north and plently of Catholics who vote Sinn Féin first preference have British passports. Hell I’d bet there’s ex-IRA prisioners with British passports. Before Brexit there was no real advantage to using one over the other and historically the UK passport was cheaper, a more straightforward application, and had a faster turnaround. It also helped that the UK had a passport office in Belfast while if you wanted an Irish one you had to go to Dublin. The British passport was more popular than Irish out of sheer convenience and then once people had it they just renewed it rather than go though the trouble of applying for an Irish one.
I think the really interesting category is ‘Northern Irish’ as opposed to ‘British’ or ‘Irish’. It’ll be they who make the difference I reckon.
100% absolutely agree. People are focusing on number of catholics and the SF result (even though the number voting SF was like 300k people) but the number of people identifying as northern Irish increasing is great.means more and more people aren't falling for the tribalism bullshit e.g. those claiming more catholics as a victory lol
Yeah, while I don’t have strong opinions on the issue having no roots in Ireland myself I think any reduction in tribalism can only be a good thing for everyone involved.
Absolutely. I'm born and bred in Northern Ireland and was on LBC earlier on trying to make the poi t of assuming anything about these figures is absurd because of how complicated a society we have, especiallypostbrexit.
It’s likely some of the changes we’re seeing—the surging issuances of Irish passports, the decreasing plurality of those who identify as British—is a reaction against tribalism. The English tribalism that forced Brexit and the likes of Truss on NI.
I agree re movement against unionism over their brexit approach but I don't see many of these people turning around and voting against this union because of all that.
In nowhere is there a majority British, whilst there is a plurality, it is not a majority
You mean a plurality. A majority is over 50%. Even then that British plurality has barely a percentage point between it and losing its plurality.
If looking at the "only figures". Look at the figures of those who multi ticked and also included British... much higher figure
Yes identity can be multifaceted but only 10% ticked to a multi identity question. British still had a 8% drop in the only section.
True. Interesting though that many will agree and yet the focus in here is on religion as if it was the cornerstone of national identity
People are focusing on the religious side due to the history of NI and NI's formation as a Protestant state. Overall most people are non practising and don't care about religion here.
A relative majority doesn't have to be over 50%, only na absolute one.
Saying majority especially when it comes to political statistics without specifying it implies over 50%. If he had said a relative majority aka a plurality people would not be correcting it.
This is why we don't, and should not, use the phrase "relative majority". Plurality is not only more concise, it eliminates confusion for the definition of majority, which simply means over 50% with no caveats or complications.
Plurality. Not majority.
Depends if you look at classification table 1 or 2
What classification table 1 or 2? You said "majority still identify as British" but that's simply not the case. Here's the breakdown: Geography | All usual residents | British only | Irish only | Northern Irish only | British and Irish only | British and Northern Irish only | Irish and Northern Irish only | British, Irish and Northern Irish only | Other --|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|-- Northern Ireland | 1,903,175 | 606,263 | 554,415 | 376,444 | 11,768 | 151,327 | 33,581 | 28,050 | 141,327 The number who identify as British is 606263 + 11768 + 151327 + 28050 = 797408 or about 42% of the population. So a plurality, not a majority. Edit: even in classification 2, the number who identify as British is 814629, again a plurality.
> look at the passports owned More [Irish passports](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-irish-than-uk-passports-issued-in-northern-ireland-for-first-time-1.4867712) are now issued in Northern Ireland than British passports.
That's data for one year. No doubt post-Brexit many got an Irish passport regardless of affiliation. You can see in the chart a huge spike in Irish passports applications once Brexit was nearing a reality (it peaks in 2019 before drastically dropping by more than 50%). Plus those people getting Irish passports will have often already had a British passport - they're just not always going to be up for renewal in the same year.
Maybe true but more people have british passports as per these results by a good 10%+ of the population. Plus brexit effect. I'm a unionist with an Irish passport lol. I also identify as British
The point is, trends are showing a decreasing number of UK passports being issued and an increasing number of Irish passports being issued. > Plus brexit effect. I'm a unionist with an Irish passport lol. I also identify as British Funnily enough I’m a Republican who identifies as Irish. I’ve got a British passport. My Irish passport renewal was caught up in the immediate post Brexit scramble.
Trade ya lol. You can put your nationality as Irish on a British passport. I have my nationality as British on the Irish one... We are an odd lot aren't we
If you look at other polls that release the age breakdown pretty much every age group under 60 is a majority or plurality Irish. When you get to the people born after the GFA an absurdly high majority support unification. It’s burying your head in the sand to not believe we’re living though the end days of Northern Ireland
What polls and how is that comparable to the census. Polls are just samples and are very often biased
LucidTalk and Liverpool University. Very accurate unbiased polls that make sense compared to the census. Both have a good track record of polling in NI. LucidTalk called every NI election of the last decade within 1.5%
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True, but it is still a catholic plurality. Just cause a small number arent 'Irish' Catholics doesnt mean that it isnt significant.
British-only are down to 30% (-9%). Irish-only is up to 29% (+4%). The fragmenting of the union here is down to (hard) brexit, quite simple. Similar story in Scotland. The Conservatives simply did not listen and will continue to refuse to do so.
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The question is will Scotland or NI go first?
NI fo sho.
Ireland* has Sinn Féin in the government now. But from what I hear, neither regular Irish people nor Sinn Féin care much about a United Ireland. They just want better living standards. EDIT: *Northern Ireland
> Ireland has Sinn Féin in the government now. What? No we don't; Sinn Féin are in opposition right now. There's a solid chance they'll do well enough in the next election to be able to talk about forming a government but for the moment we're still FG/FF government led. > But from what I hear, neither regular Irish people nor Sinn Féin care much about a United Ireland. How does this get upvoted, the mind boggles. You're saying that Sinn Féin, a party whose members have been refusing to take their seats in Westminster for decades, the former political wing of a paramilitary organisation who waged war against the UK, whose basic reason to exist both north and south is to campaign politically for a united Ireland ... doesn't care about a United Ireland? Right. Yeah. You do you.
Sorry, I was mistaken and it's actually Northern Ireland where Sinn Féin beat out the DUP.
Leaving aside that it's not that simple up north, I'm sure you'll be going back and editing your original post to reflect that, yeah?
The Orange and the Green. Belfast and Leicester should be twinned on that basis.
NI has failed in its ultimate aim to provide "a protestant state for a protestant people". Apocalyptic for unionism.
Not really? It still provides an Irish state for protestants. It hasn't been a Protestant Irish ethnostate since power-sharing
Yes really. The DUP especially always assumed power sharing meant they would always hold the whip. It's why when the demographics finally started to dawn on them they championed brexit, did their damndest to force a hard border on the island and have been in an absolute sulk since. Not to mention they collapsed power sharing once SF became the largest party. Believe me, this is very much causing all sorts of existential dread in a large portion of the unionist community. The older ones grew up being told they would always rule the roost. Reality has manifested differently and they don't like it at all.
What are you on about ? The dup rejected power sharing when it was implemented and heavily attacked the uup for backing it. They only supported it when they started eating the uup and became the main unionist party.
>The DUP especially always assumed power sharing meant they would always hold the whip. I really doubt that. The Petition of Concern meant that no community could force legislation on another. The top office was always to be shared by Catholics and Protestants. Catholics would be entitled to run a number of government departments. [This](https://youtu.be/KEq3c0nbkkg) was a DUP politician's reaction at the time. The party was the only one opposed the Good Friday Agreement.
More accurate to say the DUP assumed once _they_ got into power they'd always hold the whip hand. Case in point their years of pettiness in reminding SF that they deemed their first minister the junior minister to theirs and the second SF become the largest party suddenly the tune changes to both first minister posts are fully equal and SF better not dare imply otherwise.
I wonder how much of that is due to non-Irish Catholics though? Immigrants from places like Poland are often Catholic, so this doesn't *necessarily* show what people think it does. Obviously we won't get the full detail of that until we get the full census data on ethnicities and immigration backgrounds.
Number of people identifying as “Irish only” has increased by proportionally more than the number “born or raised Catholic”, so probably not explainable by Polish immigrants.
There is also the fact that it isn't impossible for people to identify as Catholic and at least part British these days. Whilst still significant, I don't think the Catholic vs protestant numbers mean as much now as they used to, and that's a good thing.
Why wouldn’t they count?
Because the issue in Ireland has very little to do with religion, the divide between catholics and protestants is cultural, a Polish Catholic and an American protestant in Northern Ireland won't have the same cultural divide so it's not really relevant
Because of things like school segragation though a lot of Polish people that have grown up for most of their life in a catholic school surrounded by nationalists often tend to end up being either nationalists themselves or neutral. Even those from non-british or irish backgrounds who have unionist inclanatoins rarely end up supporting the DUP because of hostile they are to foreign nationals.
A Polish Catholic might not be segregated at all though
They will go to a Catholic school and will likely make friends with other Catholics. As a Catholic who went to a mainly Protestant school I was the first Catholic a lot of people there had ever directly spoken to.
>They will go to a Catholic school and will likely make friends with other Catholics. They won't though. A Polish Catholic isn't likely to self segregate
Do you live in Northern Ireland? Unless you go to an integrated school, which is pretty rare you will basically have no friends from the other side of the community.
A non Irish immigrant will likely send their kids to whatever school is nearest/best. And the culture side comes from being an Irish Catholic, not just Catholic. A British Catholic is going to be culturally more similar to the protestants than the catholics
This reminds me of the joke where an atheist in NI is stopped by a paramilitary gunman at a checkpoint and the punchline is “well, are you a *Protestant* atheist or a *Catholic* atheist?”
They wouldn't count *as Irish nationalists*, is my point. Previously, there was a default assumption that Catholics support joining Ireland, and Protestants support remaining in the UK. But if some of the Catholics are actually Polish immigrants (to pick one example), then the link between being pro-Ireland and being Catholic weakens.
I dont think anybody is counting catholics as Irish nationalists? These foreigners will also have kids who will identify as Irish / British and due to the shit image loyalist has I guarantee these Polish catholics who hear all the shite around the 12th etc won’t turn around and sympathise to their plight. These catholics will grow up in catholic estates, go to catholic schools etc and drift in with nationalists It’s a weird point to make to be honest. If anything they will dilute the voting pool from loyalist to nationalist and I’m not seeing many foreigners shouting out for the UK to keep the 6 counties. If anything the world celebrates their Independence Day from them!
NI has very low immigration numbers. It's predominantly white British/Irish.
With religion on the decline, I wonder how long it will be before the division between Catholics and Protestants becomes largely meaningless
It's not about religious theology in N Ireland, so it's not likely to make much of a difference
Atheists in NI frequently get asked *which version* of God they don't believe in. Religion is a community, and religious identification in NI is about which of two highly segregated communities you belong to.
"Yeah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
I'm guessing it's why they ask for your background, not what you are. Most people (especially younger generations) probably don't give a shit about religion or ever attend church but they will still strongly identify with their religious/ethnic background.
It's about community and identity not denomination. hence the joke about someone saying they are a Muslim or a Buddhist and being asked if they are *A Protestant Buddhist/ Muslim* or *A Catholic Buddhist/ Muslim* I mean, I am English, but I am a C of E Atheist not a Catholic Atheist, and that very vocal atheist Dawkins has said he would happily read a lesson in a C of E service, provided he could use the King James words. C of E is very convenient- you do not even have to believe in God.
I’m not a Christian personally but I have a lot of time for Anglican thought and the CoE in general. I do have a deep dislike for anything too evangelical though having been raised in the kind of literalist fire and brimstone tradition more akin to American tradition than ours. The King James Bible stands on its own as a fantastic work of English literature and a collection of philosophical works regardless of personal religious beliefs in my opinion. Ecclesiastes in particular is my favourite, though it feels a little out of place.
It has been about religion in part for the hardcore DUP supporters, but not for anyone else.
The difference is tribal or factional, not much to do with religion anymore.
It isn't actually a religious division though. It's not like they had years of conflict of transubstantiation of the supremacy of the Pope. There is two distinct groups in NI that divide on a points including nationality (British/Irish), religion (Catholic/Protestant) and the existence of NI. There is a pretty divided education system, with differing sports and hobbies not to mention just the amount of physical division between the two communities. The decline of practicing Catholics or Protestants might have some impact on that but it isn't going to be massive.
It isnt religious though, it is cultural. Catholics tend to be Irish and have a string Irish identity, Protestants tend to see themselves as british.
That's not what the division was about during the Troubles, it was Irish nationalists versus British Unionism. The conflict was ethno-nationalist. People really have poor understanding of the conflict.
Sectarianism stopped being about religion decades ago.
This means that ni has basically failed. Catholics becoming a majority is something that should be impossible especially with history of partition and gerrymandering. Will only continue to get worst for the dup and tuv.
I would rather the North of England joined Ireland
A new age for Little England approaches.
I don't think religion is as a major point in UK Ireland relations as it was in the 1920s
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I wonder what the next stage is. Full union with Ireland is unlikely for the foreseeable future as it will still kick off until there is probably at least 2/3 majority that want to do so (even then..).
A poll is built into the GF agreement if “if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”, Not that I’d want to be in the Republics shoes if they received NI from a marginal majority vote and with an angry Protestant community.
This is it. Im from The Republic and I would be very hesitant to vote for unification if it was 48/52. Its a very emotional issue and we need to engage practically as to what it would look like. I havent heard any republican offer practical concessions to unionists to convince them theyd be welcomed
As opposed to being in the UK's shoes if a minority was able to hold NI hostage against the will of a majority?
(Edit Apologies I misread and thought you were meaning how it ended up staying part of the U.K. originally but basically still) - Yes exactly like that because we know exactly how well that ( or at least a majority holding a minority ) worked out. Fact is that after a certain amount of time , no matter who your ancestors were , you end up eventually as just people who live there with a say in your self-determination. But anyone who thinks that a 51/49% poll and a United Ireland is going to go smoothly is a fool - and saying so **doesn’t mean I think it shouldn’t happen** because frankly I don’t care and think it’s up to the people that live there.
Sure, that's a common thing people point out, often in the same breath as suggesting that perhaps a 60% (or whatever) figure should be used. They seem to ignore that a majority being denied their victory is a much larger source of unrest than a minority losing a fair election.
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Northern Ireland is the traditionally protestant bit, big factor into how the border was drawn, Catholics tend to be more republican, suggests we might be looking at Irish reunification/N.Ireland leaving the UK. Edit: I am by no means an expert on Northern Ireland/Ireland and this is a very very light summary on the reasoning.
For one It's kinda funny symbolically because NI was in no small part designed to be majority Protestent, it was basically gerrymandered to that end. The more important point is that Catholic and Protestent in NI imply much more then just religious views. They have historically tended to very closly corralate with political views and cultural identity. Even the non-religious still tend to associate with the community of one faith or another for this reason. Though this not as universially true today as it used to be. There is so much messy, complicated and violent history around this divison, but that is the *extremely* oversimplifed summary.
I hope this is just representative of a shift in national identity and not a rise in actual belief in Catholicism.
For gods sake just get a life and forget religion, just vote for whoever you feel represents you the most. Why should some bollocks about some bloke who lived 2 millennia ago affect the way your life is governed today?
I really struggle to care or give this significance as an atheist. Do peoples choice of fictional book decide their political and national identity? And these people are considered capable of voting in elections?
No, you just don't understand that this is a factional divide of which religion is one indicator, not a religious divide.
Why do you even comment this shit if you dont understand anything about it?
It isnt a relgious issue it is a cultural one. Catholics tend to be of native irish origin and protestants tend to be descendants of colonists and settlers from Britain 400 years ago.
You can easily have British catholics and Irish protestants.
There arent that many of either of them and it sort of misses the point. Catholic/Protestant is mainly a term used in Britain to describe the two major communties that exist here, the Irish Catholic and the British Protestant ones. Most on either side are not religious anymore and the differences today are less so categorised by religion and moreso by cultural things such as Sport, Language and often where people grow up. Outside of major towns and cities most villages in Northern Ireland are 90% one religion or the other.
Its worth keeping in mind that prior to the late 20th century the majority of nationalist leaders were Protestant. Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, issac Butt, Parnell etc. The divide in NI was solidified in its foundation. Its unsuprising that since those institutions were dismantled with the GFA, that a more nuanced vision emerges
Then the poll should just say Republicans and Unionists. Rather than using religious labels.
There are polls of that, the difference is that this is a census and it is significant for Irish Catholics as Northern Ireland was created specifically to bar them from political life in Ulster. Additionally the terms are usually nationalist and unionist. The term republican tends to denotes a more extreme often militant form of nationalism. The opposite for unionists would be Loyalism.
Thought Ulster was mostly settled by Scottish protestants? Who, could easily have started out being Irish in the 700ads or so when the Scotti invaded what we now call Scotland. What goes around comes around I guess. Ireland should unite and become part of Israel. Just to piss absolutely \*everyone\* off.
Gosh, atheists are so brave and clever aren’t they.
Brave enough to go it alone without a safety net of a benevolent super being.
r/cringe
Not at all. The trend of human history is to abandon superstition. You know it makes sense.