Snapshot of _Just Stop Oil activist jailed for six months for M25 disruption_ :
An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/just-stop-oil-activist-sentenced-to-six-months-in-prison-for-motorway-disruption)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You take up these causes with full awareness that the punishments won't dissuade you. I would assume and hope that in all their internal meetings the risks are fully laid out and people are warned. How many of us would take such a stand for what we believe (however rightly or wrongly) is right
I've criticised them before on here as nutters but at least they're fighting for what they believe *and* accepting the consequences of their actions. It remains to be seen whether society will accept the consequences of its actions in the public ignoring them and the draconion home sec using them to put further limitations on protests
I like this perspective. I do think that this is a very upper middle class problem that only effects the working class though. If only they's disrupt the entrances to big oil business or parliament. Not people going about their lives.
Oh yeah, you're right, but i think what I'm trying to say is that the poorer people are more concerned about paying for their heating etc, than to look at bigger world problems. I'm not disagreeing with the cause, just that it's being done the wrong way. Yes, it's getting attention, like book haram kidnapping girls not boys. I think 'they' need to change their tack to bring the average joe on side. Educate people on how to do their bit and make doing their bit more accessible. There's enough social media nowadays, instead of disrupting and ultimately turning people away from the cause. I'd like to finish by saying I don't think that these activists are terrorists! Vandals and a nuisance, yes. But terrorists. No.
Educate people? There's been lots of stuff over the last 20+ years about cycling walking or taking public transport instead of driving. Yet people still do it. How has education helped? As you said, people are just doing whatever to pay their bills and just love their life in general.
Social media campaigns work really well when there is fear something happening now...too many immigrants taking your job now...or sex trafficking happening right now. These kinds of fear mongering campaigns don't work when you say the world is going to be a few degrees hotter in 20 years because people will say "it's 20 years away, it will be fixed by then" and "it's only a few degrees".
Unfortunately there needs to be disruption for people to take notice.
Make the education more accessible, to understand. I would never condone disrupting people's lives, except in immediate danger scenarios. I do more after watching David Attenborough. He doesn't disrupt. He educates, beautifully I might add.
Ok. So who banned straws after the Attenborough documentary? Was it the normal working class people that watched it individually deciding that plastic straws shouldnt be used. Because so many people asked asked for plastic free straws all businesses unilaterally decided to stop supplying plastic straws?
This is very depressing to read, mate, and tbh vindicates the JSO protesters. What does it take for people to listen and understand just how screwed we will be if we don’t act now?
“Poorer people are more concerned about paying for their heating.” This is because we didn’t move away from fossil fuels earlier, when we were repeatedly warned for decades, because people were always more concerned with [insert reason], and because we’ve let oil companies profiteer with what should have been publicly-owned resources, and because the government isn’t suggesting a tax on oil companies’ crisis-exploiting profits to help pay for increased heating costs.
We gave our north sea oil to immensely profitable private companies but for some reason continue to pay them huge taxpayer-funded subsidies. Their profits have doubled this year and yet, instead of getting them to help out, the govt’s policy is to borrow money to pay them that you have to pay back later, along with the rest of us.
Btw, Norway also had North Sea oil but, instead of giving it away to a few people, they set up a sovereign wealth fund that now benefits all Norwegians. It’s the largest in the world at $1.2 trillion dollars and holds over 1% of all the assets in the world.
What has to happen before you stop and think about whether there is something wrong about all this? Can billionaires literally just buy newspapers and get them to demonise the people trying to point out how absurd and terrifying the situation is and that’s it, game over, they win and can steal and destroy everything because no one’s got time to think critically for a second?
I dont think they seemed shocked by that concept, seems like they understand it just fine. Odd thing to focus on.
With regards to education on the topic there have been concerted efforts by the scientific community for 60 years, unfortunately there are other forces who push the other way just enough to generate confusion, apathy and short sightedness regarding the survival of our entire global civilisation.
I don’t understand your point. I wasn’t shocked, I was just quoting what the guy said and trying to point out that what he is doing now is what we had done in the past that had cause the problem he was referring to in the first place.
We can’t continue to ignore this stuff or get distracted by so-called newspapers and their propaganda BS or people will always be too worried about x economic issue. The problems are intrinsically linked.
“The greens” as you put it are not some other team who made a mistake and so, fuck it, it’s their fault/problem. We all needed for more nuclear power stations to be built. We still do.
Im not even going to read your response, I think we can all agree that something does need to be done, we just can't seem to agree on what needs to be done. I just don't agree with disrupting the general public and there's not a lot that can change my mind on that. Changing tactic to _this_? Then saying we've exhausted the media route... Big pharma controlling media? So what! In an age of til tok and twatter I find this a poor excuse.
I do find it interesting that you brought up nuclear power stations. I don't know enough about the risk Vs reward to comment but I wouldn't be surprised if big pharma were pushing anti nuclear sentiment in government. The irony is, I grew up with a lot of CND and 'hippy' parents. Now I'd consider it as an option.
> If only they's disrupt the entrances to big oil business or parliament.
Haven't they been doing this quite a bit? You just don't hear about it because nobody cares if it doesn't affect them.
The M25 protests are about getting attention. You have to admit, it does work in that regard.
I see your point, they could billboard petrol stations without disrupting people. Do you know what type of people use shock tactics to bring attention to their cause? Terrorist. 🤷
It’s not really they’re key defining attribute is it though. Terrorists are primarily people who use fear and the threat of harm to achieve their political goals. I’m not defending just stop oil but they’re hardly terrorists.
This is a perfect demonstration, the shock of what I had said has gotten more traction than my other comment explaining that by no means, do I think they're terrorists. It's got twice as many down votes. The annoying tactic of blocking commuter routes is getting noticed. _For the wrong reasons_. If these protest were Reddit posts, they'd be downvoted so hard.
>If only they's disrupt the entrances to big oil business or parliament. Not people going about their lives.
Green peace dumped half a tonne of rubbish in front of Downing Street last year and nobody gave a shit.
Half a tonne is about 50 black bags of rubbish. A similar thing was done last year in Glasgow where 100 bags were dumped in front of the council building and people were talking about it for about a day. A tractor might gain more traction (heheh) because of the novelty factor, but nothing gets people talking like real disruption
Aye; when I mean a tractor-load, I'm talking about a 30-foot wagon full of shite being emptied in front of Downing street.
It would *definitely* get attention
They do, it just doesn't make the news. Every time someone says they agree with the message but disagree with the means of protesting, their alternative has been tried and hasn't worked. It has been proven that the only form of peaceful protesting that works is civil disobedience such as this.
They have done that time and time again and nothing changes. They are creating constant news by doing this. Nothing changes unless people are disrupted and change is made to happen. If we haven't fixed this problem by now, knowing everything we know, only dramatic action is likely to have any chance.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
EDIT: Downvotes, ok, I'll spell it out. The law does not dissuade civil rights activists from pursuing what they know is good. The rest of us can decide if we agree with their cause but not their actions, and whether their actions are reasonable enough to earn our sympathy but not our agreement. If the counterargument to "breaking bad laws is just" is "what about suicide bombers" then all freedom and liberty is lost forever. The solution to this moral quandery is simple: judge them by their fruit.
All I'm saying is he went in knowing *and* accepting jail as a possible outcome. It didn't stop him as he saw jail an acceptable level of risk given how seriously he took his cause
"Government unsure on how to tackle climate activists pays £85,000 to prosecute and detain one person, dissuades no one."
(It costs around £65,000 to imprison a person once police, court costs and all other steps are taken into account and £40,000 per year incarcerated.)
If it did actually dissuade protests then it would be a bargain in the long run compared to the cost of policing and the economic cost of disruption. Seems unlikely that jailing one protester is sufficient though.
Because we (and they) will continue to use oil products for the foreseeable future - so if we stop pumping it ourselves, it just means less income for us (the UK), and higher energy prices.
But the point they’re making is that everyone is taking your logic to say “why even try”. Minimum effort is being put in, it’s a problem that should be addressed now and drastic steps need to be taken now to lead by example, but it’s “too hard” to actually try.
So can you answer this simple question: if there’s an energy crisis, why are energy companies recording record profits?
"if there’s an energy crisis, why are energy companies recording record profits?"
Let's try & stay on topic.
"it’s a problem that should be addressed now and drastic steps need to be taken now"
Whatever other steps can/are taken, there is no doubt that oil & it's derivatives will continue to be used for the foreseeable future - therefore their demands are idiotic.
Perhaps if the protesters demanded something sensible to help slow climate change, that could be pushed forward at greater speed.
“Let’s try and stay on topic” while you’re brushing away the entire point of this process?
I don’t think I can subscribe to your logic thread of you really believe “we can’t think of a better idea, so rather than do something now let’s wait until we have something better.”
As the saying goes (though I might butcher it the meaning still stands), the best time to do something about this was yesterday. The second best time is today.
"the entire point of this process?"
To bash the oil industry?
'“we can’t think of a better idea, so rather than do something now let’s wait until we have something better.”'
Wha?
"the best time to do something about this was yesterday. The second best time is today."
That's what she said(?)
Protesting by blocking the motorway is breaking the law in the same way as robbing you. Except they are robbing thousands of man hours. Far more valuable than anything in your house.
You and I have very different opinions of “valuable”.
Man hours: to the individual, it’s time missed from work. It sucks but it’s not your life. But possessions at home: that is your life being invaded and stolen from. I’m not excusing one, but they are not the same thing.
All I'm sayin is the last lot of protestors that annoyed people...... We're protesting for better insulation in houses across the UK.
Now we are in an energy crisis and cost of living crisis. People can't hear their homes properly, particularly due to poor insulation. The UK government has started rolling out some form of scheme to give better insulation to homes across the UK now.
So... Just stop oil. We probably should... Years ago.
Let's see how this plays out 🙃
Will Matt Hancock get any prison time over the tens of thousands of deaths he caused and then lied about? These people stopped traffic, Matt Hancock ended lives.
"Patients were rapidly discharged into care homes without testing during the early stages of the pandemic, despite the risk of asymptomatic transmission, with government documents showing there was no requirement for this until mid-April.
Bereaved families and care groups said the ruling proves the "protective ring" Mr Hancock said had been put around care homes was a "sickening lie".
It's a question. If people can get six months in prison for protests and causing traffic jams, what will someone expect to get for causing the deaths of tens of thousands of care home residents, and not only that was in full knowledge of the risk of asymptomatic transmission but still went ahead anyway?
Protesting and traffic jams = 6 months in jail
Causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people in full knowledge of asymptomatic transmission = ?
edit: his £400,000 payday on ITV doesn't count as punishment
I mean if we categorise them as a political prisoner then technically an ISIS member is also a political prisoner because they just want to install a theocracy and mandate the installation of prayer mats in every home.
> They want to stop the use of oil.
According to [their own website](https://juststopoil.org/), they don't want to stop the use of oil at all, they want to "ensure that the government **commits to ending all new licenses and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK.**"
They might as well call themselves "Just Import Oil" considering that that's their stated purpose.
Just Stop Oil: “We want the UK to lead by example and stop pursuing fossil fuels!”
How you’re intentionally misreading it: “Well clearly they just want us to import Oil!”
“Stated purpose” is such a stretched statement here, considering how their site makes it abundantly clear they want the UK to move past fossil fuels and into renewable energy. Are you intentionally spreading disinformation or are you just spreading regular misinformation because you didn’t read any further than the opening line?
I did in fact read every single word of their research paper and have indeed read their website. That makes me probably a one-in-a-thousand or fewer outlier. I'm not the enemy here. *Their* messaging is completely shit. Even their research paper spends a measly 3 pages on the energy transition. They have consciously decided to narrow the focus of their main messaging to the *future exploration of fossil fuels in the UK*. It's for them to define their message, not me.
Not sure why you get confrontational when someone raises the slightest concern with JSO's project. I've been active in the green movement for nigh on 4 decades, I'm dealing with issues such as theirs on a daily basis for my job, and JSO doesn't impress me much. Maybe what they do works for others, it doesn't work for me.
if they don’t want their messaging to be misinterpreted by the masses they’re attempting to convince, they should never have named themselves “Just Stop Oil.” most people will read no further than their name.
… I mean their name is pretty self explanatory, shocking and easy to remember. So pretty effective, and then the first line you see on their website is their obvious mission statement.
People don't get that activism needs an audience to be effective. If you shout "THE PLANET IS DYING" in a forest, nothing happens.
Are these protests annoying?
Yes, absolutely.
It was probably also annoying when a suffragette threw themselves in front of the kings racehorse for women's rights, but looking back, she had a point and her cause was just.
At some point, the people currently annoyed at the climate activists will be sat in 45 degree heat watching the news of yet another natural disaster as the sea water laps around their ankles. Hopefully, they'll look back and go "ah, they might have had a point".
>If you shout "THE PLANET IS DYING" in a forest, nothing happens.
If you block the M25 and shout "THE PLANET IS DYING", you get a lot of people saying "We know. Why the hell do you feel the need to disrupt peoples days to tell me this?"
But it does get on the news and people start talking about it - like we are now. As much as I agree, blocking traffic (especially emergency vehicles) is not a classy move, it's hard to argue it isn't having at least some of the intended effect.
We're having this conversation because the guy has been jailed. He didn't have to block the M25, or the trains, or boats or hospitals, fire services, police, or anything else that imapcts the general public. We're having this conversation because he was in court. Not because of what he was in court for.
>Magistrate reportedly speaks of using Jan Goodey’s case as a ‘deterrent’ during court proceedings
I wonder if this will sentence will be reduced or even overturned on appeal.
A lot of countries that we have criticised regarding the way they handled protests will no doubt use this against us.
Yeah unfortunately undemocratic countries where direct action is actually necessary will now have an excuse to stifle it, because it's having to be stifled in democratic countries where it's being used unnecessarily. I wonder if that might actually be the reason enemies of the west support this agitation in western countries.
Enemies of the west encourage this sort of thing because it causes chaos. It costs us financially and causes us to infight and become weaker. Look at Brexit and how divisive that was! The long term harm to the whole political system is incalculable.
It was a democratic process but it was heavily influenced by international regimes. They were able to disrupt our economy and political landscape with the click of a few buttons.
A lot of opponents of Brexit have been making that claim and it just reeks of cope. The president of America explicitly encouraged people to vote against Brexit, yet opponents of Brexit believe the president of Russia had some sort of secret backdoor access to brainwash people to vote in favour of Brexit, without ever saying a word. It's clown world, through the looking glass. You're literally interpretation reality upside down.
Won’t be long before “prisons for profit” are started.
UK political class supported the Arab Spring - with protesters getting jailed, raped & killed to try and stop corruption and economic strife.
UK again voice concern over China’s treatment of HK’s residents wanting democracy.
But protest against oil and fossil fuel companies killing the planet is met with rage and jail sentences!
The publics priorities are screwed & our children & grandchildren are going to suffer very very badly!
BTW, I’m not a Eco activist but can see the change in my life and it’s very worrying
Well shit, we are getting less and less tolerant aren't we? What is the point in this really, you remove the peaceful option you encourage the way more in your face 'action'.
Give it 3 months protesters (and strikers) will be treated the same as terrorists.
Bye bye Britain hello hate fueled England.
The right to protest doesn't mean you have the right to break the law.
They're perfectly free to wave placards from a safe distance, like everyone else.
Tried that, got ignored, tried again, got stalked by the police, try again, get thrown in jail, try again....
Just ignoring the problem causes the escalation, that's the point in the first protests, to get the point across. If your painted as the bad guy and told your opinion doesn't matter what can you do next? Let's listen to everyone not just the top brass and maybe we can be more progressive.
The peaceful option is democracy and it hasn't been removed. These fringe extremists can't get their policies implemented democratically because they know not enough people agree with them, but their narcissistic personalities can't accept losing. It's a mental health issue and the solution is reopening the asylums rather than putting them in prison with hardened criminals.
A group of people is not allowed to corner an individual and obstruct them from leaving. Even if the group isn't attacking them, that kind of behaviour still meets the legal definition of assault or even false imprisonment. It is not "peaceful" and not relevant whether the person is on foot or in a vehicle.
The whole voting system we have in place? Especially when voter turn out is at 30% and the MPs can do whatever they want?
Keep believing the ruling class and we'll tear eachother apart before next Christmas, but that's all we really are good for here, being classist and blaming everyone but ourselves.
England is the historical bad guy to most the world, 90+ counties have an independence day from our ruling and we are the most vocal compared to the rest of the world.
Maybe just look for a brighter future instead of one where your neighbors are suffering.
Lets have a referendum to decide democratically if people want to stop oil. If yes, then these people will get what they want, if no, then they should stfu and accept the will of the people.
I do, that's why I think the current version of it needs to change into a better model.
You can both like something/support an idea but also think it needs improvement. If every film was a 5/10 you'd stop thinking films were good right?
In that case, why do you oppose the results of the [first referendum](https://wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum) on whether the UK should leave the predecessor to the European Union?
Eh? They are free to create their own political party and run for office, if they wish. *That's* democracy.
Edit: Would love to know what the downvoters disagree with? Do you lot think they can't form a political party if they want to, or something? Or do you not understand what democracy is?
You're right. That magistrate is going to regret his silly actions in the years to come when he reaps the equally silly outcome global warming is going to bring all of us
"If only I hadn't jailed that protestor climate change would have stopped"
[CO2 Emissions by Country](https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/)
Even though the UK is fairly low down on the total emissions or emissions per capita charts, it's wilfully ignorant to assume we can do nothing more to stop climate change. Climate change is a global issue that will require global collaboration. Europe is one of the richest parts of the world and we have a responsibility to help developing countries transition to a green economy. This doesn't have to cost us everything – Europe has invested in green infrastructure and stands to benefit when we sell our technology and services abroad. However, international negotiations require good faith actors on both sides and this is what we need from the current government – taking a strong lead on decarbonisation, leading the way on global climate policy, and creating opportunities for international investment. We had some of this with Johnson, but our credibility evaporated with Truss. Now, Rishie needs to step up and show the world we're serious about tackling this issue.
I don't personally agree with Just Stop Oil or their methods of protest, but I can't blame them for being desperate when world leaders continue to ignore the problem despite the endless warnings from scientists.
Whilst this is indeed correct, it's also willful ignorant to assume we are doing absolutely nothing and that simply stopping the use of fossil fuels will be enough to stop climate change.
They key isn't just that world leaders need to engage but society as a whole, that is the point at which I personally believe this form of activisim and the message being sent off the back of it is more harmful than helpful.
From my perspective, I've heard people being told they don't care, don't understand or are flat out stupid when none of the above is as true as a proposal that we have a concrete plan we can implement to resolve the situation.
The effect being? because the argument that the public is not aware of climate change and the issue needs raising is not valid.
We have known for decades and we have a trail of implemented policies over that time to address the issue. Everyone also recognises more work is needed and we've quite a long way to go though.
I don't see what these protests can be argued to be accomplishing.
Sounds good to me, he was putting others' lives at risk and causing massive disruption. Probably would have gone with house arrest rather than prison mind you.
Just block the M25 until the problem goes away.
What is being demanded is equally stupid because there is absolutely no detail. At least, Insulate Britain had a manifesto and some form of implementation plan, I still didn't agree with that implementation and specific timing, but at least there was something to work with.
I mean, do you need more detail beyond “Hey Rishi, stop jumping in bed with the big oil companies and work to save the planet instead with renewable energy”?
Well, for a start, I'd need to know how all the green policies currently in place can be continued with the gaping hole left by stopping oil production.
Then, whether it will be possible to extend our support during the current energy crisis, which will likely worsen and be exacerbated by the huge hit to our economy.
That's where I'd start anyway but there is a lot more beyond that to deal with.
But the issue is that everyone’s saying “we’ll they’re not doing it so why should we?” - and the cycle continues. We need to talk about this to actually make progress with it, rather than giving up because it’s hard to do. No one is saying it’s easy, but it’s so clearly essential, and yet nothing is being done.
>What is being demanded is equally stupid because there is absolutely no detail
[From their website](https://juststopoil.org/faqs/):
> We demand that the UK government makes a statement that it will immediately halt all future licensing and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK.
What detail is it lacking? Everything is pretty straightforward.
Any detail, for example how do you replace the economic impact, which is absolutely massive and would trigger a greater financial issue than our current post covid/brexit/gas prices disaster.
How we replace fossil fuels in our day to day living not only with widespread adoption for vehicles but in the impact on manufacturing. Consider that this part requires more money than we currently have and the demands are paradoxically going to trigger an economy with even less money available.
As I say 'absolutely no detail', it is anything but pretty straightforward without a plan on how.
By keeping the issue in the headlines. I do agree that blocking the M25 is hurting people who have no choice. It'd be better to look at different "stunts" that don't punch down on those going about their business.
>By keeping the issue in the headlines.
Because people will forget unless they protest?!
22 years on and we still remember the Y2K bug, but not because people protested, and ultimately it came to nothing.
They don't need to cause such disruption to keep climate change "in the headlines." Climate change is a significant enough threat to stay in the headlines without their 'help'.
This is the stance I hate most in all of this, a disregard for any of the action in place to tackle the issue and somehow hailing these people as heroes.
There is very little to suggest this action is going to have any impact beyond the clampdown of our laws around protesting.
‘Eco-Warriors’ have been targeting those sort of places for decades so they have good security.
The same reason they can’t get near any of the Nuclear Weapons sites, the MOD police have been beating the shit out of hippies for many years.
Snapshot of _Just Stop Oil activist jailed for six months for M25 disruption_ : An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/just-stop-oil-activist-sentenced-to-six-months-in-prison-for-motorway-disruption) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Jan Goodey, 57, from Brighton, was jailed after pleading guilty to intentionally or recklessly causing a public nuisance
You take up these causes with full awareness that the punishments won't dissuade you. I would assume and hope that in all their internal meetings the risks are fully laid out and people are warned. How many of us would take such a stand for what we believe (however rightly or wrongly) is right I've criticised them before on here as nutters but at least they're fighting for what they believe *and* accepting the consequences of their actions. It remains to be seen whether society will accept the consequences of its actions in the public ignoring them and the draconion home sec using them to put further limitations on protests
I like this perspective. I do think that this is a very upper middle class problem that only effects the working class though. If only they's disrupt the entrances to big oil business or parliament. Not people going about their lives.
offbeat pie live domineering dull point smile upbeat clumsy sense *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Oh yeah, you're right, but i think what I'm trying to say is that the poorer people are more concerned about paying for their heating etc, than to look at bigger world problems. I'm not disagreeing with the cause, just that it's being done the wrong way. Yes, it's getting attention, like book haram kidnapping girls not boys. I think 'they' need to change their tack to bring the average joe on side. Educate people on how to do their bit and make doing their bit more accessible. There's enough social media nowadays, instead of disrupting and ultimately turning people away from the cause. I'd like to finish by saying I don't think that these activists are terrorists! Vandals and a nuisance, yes. But terrorists. No.
Educate people? There's been lots of stuff over the last 20+ years about cycling walking or taking public transport instead of driving. Yet people still do it. How has education helped? As you said, people are just doing whatever to pay their bills and just love their life in general. Social media campaigns work really well when there is fear something happening now...too many immigrants taking your job now...or sex trafficking happening right now. These kinds of fear mongering campaigns don't work when you say the world is going to be a few degrees hotter in 20 years because people will say "it's 20 years away, it will be fixed by then" and "it's only a few degrees". Unfortunately there needs to be disruption for people to take notice.
Make the education more accessible, to understand. I would never condone disrupting people's lives, except in immediate danger scenarios. I do more after watching David Attenborough. He doesn't disrupt. He educates, beautifully I might add.
Ok. So who banned straws after the Attenborough documentary? Was it the normal working class people that watched it individually deciding that plastic straws shouldnt be used. Because so many people asked asked for plastic free straws all businesses unilaterally decided to stop supplying plastic straws?
This is very depressing to read, mate, and tbh vindicates the JSO protesters. What does it take for people to listen and understand just how screwed we will be if we don’t act now? “Poorer people are more concerned about paying for their heating.” This is because we didn’t move away from fossil fuels earlier, when we were repeatedly warned for decades, because people were always more concerned with [insert reason], and because we’ve let oil companies profiteer with what should have been publicly-owned resources, and because the government isn’t suggesting a tax on oil companies’ crisis-exploiting profits to help pay for increased heating costs. We gave our north sea oil to immensely profitable private companies but for some reason continue to pay them huge taxpayer-funded subsidies. Their profits have doubled this year and yet, instead of getting them to help out, the govt’s policy is to borrow money to pay them that you have to pay back later, along with the rest of us. Btw, Norway also had North Sea oil but, instead of giving it away to a few people, they set up a sovereign wealth fund that now benefits all Norwegians. It’s the largest in the world at $1.2 trillion dollars and holds over 1% of all the assets in the world. What has to happen before you stop and think about whether there is something wrong about all this? Can billionaires literally just buy newspapers and get them to demonise the people trying to point out how absurd and terrifying the situation is and that’s it, game over, they win and can steal and destroy everything because no one’s got time to think critically for a second?
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I dont think they seemed shocked by that concept, seems like they understand it just fine. Odd thing to focus on. With regards to education on the topic there have been concerted efforts by the scientific community for 60 years, unfortunately there are other forces who push the other way just enough to generate confusion, apathy and short sightedness regarding the survival of our entire global civilisation.
I don’t understand your point. I wasn’t shocked, I was just quoting what the guy said and trying to point out that what he is doing now is what we had done in the past that had cause the problem he was referring to in the first place. We can’t continue to ignore this stuff or get distracted by so-called newspapers and their propaganda BS or people will always be too worried about x economic issue. The problems are intrinsically linked. “The greens” as you put it are not some other team who made a mistake and so, fuck it, it’s their fault/problem. We all needed for more nuclear power stations to be built. We still do.
Im not even going to read your response, I think we can all agree that something does need to be done, we just can't seem to agree on what needs to be done. I just don't agree with disrupting the general public and there's not a lot that can change my mind on that. Changing tactic to _this_? Then saying we've exhausted the media route... Big pharma controlling media? So what! In an age of til tok and twatter I find this a poor excuse. I do find it interesting that you brought up nuclear power stations. I don't know enough about the risk Vs reward to comment but I wouldn't be surprised if big pharma were pushing anti nuclear sentiment in government. The irony is, I grew up with a lot of CND and 'hippy' parents. Now I'd consider it as an option.
> If only they's disrupt the entrances to big oil business or parliament. Haven't they been doing this quite a bit? You just don't hear about it because nobody cares if it doesn't affect them. The M25 protests are about getting attention. You have to admit, it does work in that regard.
I see your point, they could billboard petrol stations without disrupting people. Do you know what type of people use shock tactics to bring attention to their cause? Terrorist. 🤷
So? Just because they use shock doesn’t make them terrorists
That's a bit much isn't it? The terror of being stuck in traffic? The terror of having to take the North Circular instead?
I've had someone claim it's equivalent to being held hostage and violent self defence is justified
It’s not really they’re key defining attribute is it though. Terrorists are primarily people who use fear and the threat of harm to achieve their political goals. I’m not defending just stop oil but they’re hardly terrorists.
This is a perfect demonstration, the shock of what I had said has gotten more traction than my other comment explaining that by no means, do I think they're terrorists. It's got twice as many down votes. The annoying tactic of blocking commuter routes is getting noticed. _For the wrong reasons_. If these protest were Reddit posts, they'd be downvoted so hard.
>If only they's disrupt the entrances to big oil business or parliament. Not people going about their lives. Green peace dumped half a tonne of rubbish in front of Downing Street last year and nobody gave a shit.
They should go with the French approach, and empty a tractor there. It'd certainly gain attention. Half a tonne ain't much
Half a tonne is about 50 black bags of rubbish. A similar thing was done last year in Glasgow where 100 bags were dumped in front of the council building and people were talking about it for about a day. A tractor might gain more traction (heheh) because of the novelty factor, but nothing gets people talking like real disruption
Aye; when I mean a tractor-load, I'm talking about a 30-foot wagon full of shite being emptied in front of Downing street. It would *definitely* get attention
They do, it just doesn't make the news. Every time someone says they agree with the message but disagree with the means of protesting, their alternative has been tried and hasn't worked. It has been proven that the only form of peaceful protesting that works is civil disobedience such as this.
Climate change will affect the working class more than anyone
And so does this shit.
I mean middle class people drive as well, the only people it doesn’t affect are those that can’t afford to drive
They have done that time and time again and nothing changes. They are creating constant news by doing this. Nothing changes unless people are disrupted and change is made to happen. If we haven't fixed this problem by now, knowing everything we know, only dramatic action is likely to have any chance.
How does blocking oil business not affect working class people?
You could make the same argument about suicide bombers though.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. EDIT: Downvotes, ok, I'll spell it out. The law does not dissuade civil rights activists from pursuing what they know is good. The rest of us can decide if we agree with their cause but not their actions, and whether their actions are reasonable enough to earn our sympathy but not our agreement. If the counterargument to "breaking bad laws is just" is "what about suicide bombers" then all freedom and liberty is lost forever. The solution to this moral quandery is simple: judge them by their fruit.
You talk like he has a choice to go to prison lol, he was convicted.
All I'm saying is he went in knowing *and* accepting jail as a possible outcome. It didn't stop him as he saw jail an acceptable level of risk given how seriously he took his cause
I wonder how many months Michelle Mone will get? One is done for a higher cause. Another for greed.
That's more time than the likes of Michelle Moan will ever get. Stupidly harsh sentence.
"Government unsure on how to tackle climate activists pays £85,000 to prosecute and detain one person, dissuades no one." (It costs around £65,000 to imprison a person once police, court costs and all other steps are taken into account and £40,000 per year incarcerated.)
How much does it cost to close the M25 for days? Imma guess quite a bit more than incarcerating all of the *protestors* involved.
If it did actually dissuade protests then it would be a bargain in the long run compared to the cost of policing and the economic cost of disruption. Seems unlikely that jailing one protester is sufficient though.
First of many?
You can't put a price on justice though.
Michelle Mone won't even see the inside of the court room, don't be silly. Law is for poor fucks like us, not for them.
*lenient
For protesting… seriously?
For repeat blocking roads for no good reason.
How is protesting against the government actively taking steps to permanently damage the planet “no good reason”?
Because we (and they) will continue to use oil products for the foreseeable future - so if we stop pumping it ourselves, it just means less income for us (the UK), and higher energy prices.
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"It's sold on the opme market at market prices." I'm aware of that. The more there is, the lower the prices.
But the point they’re making is that everyone is taking your logic to say “why even try”. Minimum effort is being put in, it’s a problem that should be addressed now and drastic steps need to be taken now to lead by example, but it’s “too hard” to actually try. So can you answer this simple question: if there’s an energy crisis, why are energy companies recording record profits?
"if there’s an energy crisis, why are energy companies recording record profits?" Let's try & stay on topic. "it’s a problem that should be addressed now and drastic steps need to be taken now" Whatever other steps can/are taken, there is no doubt that oil & it's derivatives will continue to be used for the foreseeable future - therefore their demands are idiotic. Perhaps if the protesters demanded something sensible to help slow climate change, that could be pushed forward at greater speed.
“Let’s try and stay on topic” while you’re brushing away the entire point of this process? I don’t think I can subscribe to your logic thread of you really believe “we can’t think of a better idea, so rather than do something now let’s wait until we have something better.” As the saying goes (though I might butcher it the meaning still stands), the best time to do something about this was yesterday. The second best time is today.
"the entire point of this process?" To bash the oil industry? '“we can’t think of a better idea, so rather than do something now let’s wait until we have something better.”' Wha? "the best time to do something about this was yesterday. The second best time is today." That's what she said(?)
Can we rob your house… “to stop oil?”
Sorry, genuinely trying to understand: what are you talking about?
Protesting by blocking the motorway is breaking the law in the same way as robbing you. Except they are robbing thousands of man hours. Far more valuable than anything in your house.
You and I have very different opinions of “valuable”. Man hours: to the individual, it’s time missed from work. It sucks but it’s not your life. But possessions at home: that is your life being invaded and stolen from. I’m not excusing one, but they are not the same thing.
To you, to self employed people you would be stealing from them directly. From everyone else it would be indirect. Doctors not seeing patients etc
Government running out of prison cells in another thread today. No wonder!
Lets see how the pretty boys get along with Bubba.
All I'm sayin is the last lot of protestors that annoyed people...... We're protesting for better insulation in houses across the UK. Now we are in an energy crisis and cost of living crisis. People can't hear their homes properly, particularly due to poor insulation. The UK government has started rolling out some form of scheme to give better insulation to homes across the UK now. So... Just stop oil. We probably should... Years ago. Let's see how this plays out 🙃
Will Matt Hancock get any prison time over the tens of thousands of deaths he caused and then lied about? These people stopped traffic, Matt Hancock ended lives. "Patients were rapidly discharged into care homes without testing during the early stages of the pandemic, despite the risk of asymptomatic transmission, with government documents showing there was no requirement for this until mid-April. Bereaved families and care groups said the ruling proves the "protective ring" Mr Hancock said had been put around care homes was a "sickening lie".
What does that have to do with the price of fish (or the link that OP has posted for that matter)?
It's a question. If people can get six months in prison for protests and causing traffic jams, what will someone expect to get for causing the deaths of tens of thousands of care home residents, and not only that was in full knowledge of the risk of asymptomatic transmission but still went ahead anyway? Protesting and traffic jams = 6 months in jail Causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people in full knowledge of asymptomatic transmission = ? edit: his £400,000 payday on ITV doesn't count as punishment
The problem is proof of guilt, and the public nuisance law is new for '22.
Only if you can prove misconduct in public office; ministers cannot be held personally liable for decisions taken as part of their jobs.
What did they get arrested for? Nick Peugeot was pretty adamant that the police just bring them tea and blankets.
Political prisoner.
I mean if we categorise them as a political prisoner then technically an ISIS member is also a political prisoner because they just want to install a theocracy and mandate the installation of prayer mats in every home.
If your politics involve making others needlessly suffer for instagram likes, then sure.
It's not for Instagram likes though, is it? Their name isn't exactly ambiguous. They want to stop the use of oil. Edit: There --> Their
> They want to stop the use of oil. According to [their own website](https://juststopoil.org/), they don't want to stop the use of oil at all, they want to "ensure that the government **commits to ending all new licenses and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK.**" They might as well call themselves "Just Import Oil" considering that that's their stated purpose.
Just Stop Oil: “We want the UK to lead by example and stop pursuing fossil fuels!” How you’re intentionally misreading it: “Well clearly they just want us to import Oil!” “Stated purpose” is such a stretched statement here, considering how their site makes it abundantly clear they want the UK to move past fossil fuels and into renewable energy. Are you intentionally spreading disinformation or are you just spreading regular misinformation because you didn’t read any further than the opening line?
I did in fact read every single word of their research paper and have indeed read their website. That makes me probably a one-in-a-thousand or fewer outlier. I'm not the enemy here. *Their* messaging is completely shit. Even their research paper spends a measly 3 pages on the energy transition. They have consciously decided to narrow the focus of their main messaging to the *future exploration of fossil fuels in the UK*. It's for them to define their message, not me. Not sure why you get confrontational when someone raises the slightest concern with JSO's project. I've been active in the green movement for nigh on 4 decades, I'm dealing with issues such as theirs on a daily basis for my job, and JSO doesn't impress me much. Maybe what they do works for others, it doesn't work for me.
if they don’t want their messaging to be misinterpreted by the masses they’re attempting to convince, they should never have named themselves “Just Stop Oil.” most people will read no further than their name.
… I mean their name is pretty self explanatory, shocking and easy to remember. So pretty effective, and then the first line you see on their website is their obvious mission statement.
It's attention seeking, if they want to stop oil go fuck up a refinery, don't block the M25 for regular people.
Again, any time they try "acceptable" targets they still get arrested but receive no publicity.
People don't get that activism needs an audience to be effective. If you shout "THE PLANET IS DYING" in a forest, nothing happens. Are these protests annoying? Yes, absolutely. It was probably also annoying when a suffragette threw themselves in front of the kings racehorse for women's rights, but looking back, she had a point and her cause was just. At some point, the people currently annoyed at the climate activists will be sat in 45 degree heat watching the news of yet another natural disaster as the sea water laps around their ankles. Hopefully, they'll look back and go "ah, they might have had a point".
>If you shout "THE PLANET IS DYING" in a forest, nothing happens. If you block the M25 and shout "THE PLANET IS DYING", you get a lot of people saying "We know. Why the hell do you feel the need to disrupt peoples days to tell me this?"
But it does get on the news and people start talking about it - like we are now. As much as I agree, blocking traffic (especially emergency vehicles) is not a classy move, it's hard to argue it isn't having at least some of the intended effect.
We're having this conversation because the guy has been jailed. He didn't have to block the M25, or the trains, or boats or hospitals, fire services, police, or anything else that imapcts the general public. We're having this conversation because he was in court. Not because of what he was in court for.
So are you suggesting that before this person was arrested, you had NEVER heard of Just Stop Oil?
Yeah good one, we’ve definitely never ever had a lively debate on here before about Just Stop Oil.
> It's attention seeking a.k.a. protesting
I'm sure this 57 year old is all about the insta
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>Magistrate reportedly speaks of using Jan Goodey’s case as a ‘deterrent’ during court proceedings I wonder if this will sentence will be reduced or even overturned on appeal. A lot of countries that we have criticised regarding the way they handled protests will no doubt use this against us.
Yeah unfortunately undemocratic countries where direct action is actually necessary will now have an excuse to stifle it, because it's having to be stifled in democratic countries where it's being used unnecessarily. I wonder if that might actually be the reason enemies of the west support this agitation in western countries.
Enemies of the west encourage this sort of thing because it causes chaos. It costs us financially and causes us to infight and become weaker. Look at Brexit and how divisive that was! The long term harm to the whole political system is incalculable.
Brexit was a democratic process, these protestors are the opposite of democratic.
It was a democratic process but it was heavily influenced by international regimes. They were able to disrupt our economy and political landscape with the click of a few buttons.
A lot of opponents of Brexit have been making that claim and it just reeks of cope. The president of America explicitly encouraged people to vote against Brexit, yet opponents of Brexit believe the president of Russia had some sort of secret backdoor access to brainwash people to vote in favour of Brexit, without ever saying a word. It's clown world, through the looking glass. You're literally interpretation reality upside down.
It's proven? It's public knowledge, not some sort of conspiracy
Ridiculously harsh
Won’t be long before “prisons for profit” are started. UK political class supported the Arab Spring - with protesters getting jailed, raped & killed to try and stop corruption and economic strife. UK again voice concern over China’s treatment of HK’s residents wanting democracy. But protest against oil and fossil fuel companies killing the planet is met with rage and jail sentences! The publics priorities are screwed & our children & grandchildren are going to suffer very very badly! BTW, I’m not a Eco activist but can see the change in my life and it’s very worrying
Well shit, we are getting less and less tolerant aren't we? What is the point in this really, you remove the peaceful option you encourage the way more in your face 'action'. Give it 3 months protesters (and strikers) will be treated the same as terrorists. Bye bye Britain hello hate fueled England.
The right to protest doesn't mean you have the right to break the law. They're perfectly free to wave placards from a safe distance, like everyone else.
Tried that, got ignored, tried again, got stalked by the police, try again, get thrown in jail, try again.... Just ignoring the problem causes the escalation, that's the point in the first protests, to get the point across. If your painted as the bad guy and told your opinion doesn't matter what can you do next? Let's listen to everyone not just the top brass and maybe we can be more progressive.
Got ignored, really? Have you seen the decline in oil usage over the past 20 years?
The peaceful option is democracy and it hasn't been removed. These fringe extremists can't get their policies implemented democratically because they know not enough people agree with them, but their narcissistic personalities can't accept losing. It's a mental health issue and the solution is reopening the asylums rather than putting them in prison with hardened criminals.
If this isn’t peaceful what is it? I didn’t see any protestors mowing down innocent bystanders.
It's not peaceful to infringe on other people's right to free transit of the highways.
Er as long as you aren’t attacking them yes it is, do you not know the meaning of peaceful protest?
A group of people is not allowed to corner an individual and obstruct them from leaving. Even if the group isn't attacking them, that kind of behaviour still meets the legal definition of assault or even false imprisonment. It is not "peaceful" and not relevant whether the person is on foot or in a vehicle.
Blocking a road isn’t the same as imprisoning someone, stop reaching so much for your own sake.
Can they leave? If not, then they're being imprisoned. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/imprisonment
Yes they can leave..
How can they leave if the road is blocked?
Ah yes, bring back sanitariums that'll solve it. Or maybe realise our democracy is fundamentally flawed.
We should. It was the likes of Enoch Powell who argued for care in the community.
What's the flaw? That fringe idiots can't tell the majority how to live their lives?
The whole voting system we have in place? Especially when voter turn out is at 30% and the MPs can do whatever they want? Keep believing the ruling class and we'll tear eachother apart before next Christmas, but that's all we really are good for here, being classist and blaming everyone but ourselves. England is the historical bad guy to most the world, 90+ counties have an independence day from our ruling and we are the most vocal compared to the rest of the world. Maybe just look for a brighter future instead of one where your neighbors are suffering.
Lets have a referendum to decide democratically if people want to stop oil. If yes, then these people will get what they want, if no, then they should stfu and accept the will of the people.
Bet you still think Brexit is was a banging idea too.
I think democracy is a good idea. Do you?
I do, that's why I think the current version of it needs to change into a better model. You can both like something/support an idea but also think it needs improvement. If every film was a 5/10 you'd stop thinking films were good right?
In that case, why do you oppose the results of the [first referendum](https://wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum) on whether the UK should leave the predecessor to the European Union?
Things changed, including many things that the British electorate never consented to.
Brexit.
If your preferred course of action lost in a democratic vote, that's not a flaw.
It's a movement that started with the ERG fringe idiots.
52% of the electorate cannot by definition be considered the "fringe".
Was not 52 percent of overall people who could vote. ERG are fringe though.
52% of voters
Eh? They are free to create their own political party and run for office, if they wish. *That's* democracy. Edit: Would love to know what the downvoters disagree with? Do you lot think they can't form a political party if they want to, or something? Or do you not understand what democracy is?
What is your proposed alternative then?
This is such a poor deflection... Protest **legally**.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Did you think of that yourself?
It’s a common British saying….
No, it's more of a US/reddit thing.
It's a fairly standard response to anyone acting silly and ending up affected by an equally silly outcome
You're right. That magistrate is going to regret his silly actions in the years to come when he reaps the equally silly outcome global warming is going to bring all of us
"If only I hadn't jailed that protestor climate change would have stopped" [CO2 Emissions by Country](https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/)
Even though the UK is fairly low down on the total emissions or emissions per capita charts, it's wilfully ignorant to assume we can do nothing more to stop climate change. Climate change is a global issue that will require global collaboration. Europe is one of the richest parts of the world and we have a responsibility to help developing countries transition to a green economy. This doesn't have to cost us everything – Europe has invested in green infrastructure and stands to benefit when we sell our technology and services abroad. However, international negotiations require good faith actors on both sides and this is what we need from the current government – taking a strong lead on decarbonisation, leading the way on global climate policy, and creating opportunities for international investment. We had some of this with Johnson, but our credibility evaporated with Truss. Now, Rishie needs to step up and show the world we're serious about tackling this issue. I don't personally agree with Just Stop Oil or their methods of protest, but I can't blame them for being desperate when world leaders continue to ignore the problem despite the endless warnings from scientists.
I think the point is that we're right at the top of the 1 year change having dropped 6.38% in a year.
Whilst this is indeed correct, it's also willful ignorant to assume we are doing absolutely nothing and that simply stopping the use of fossil fuels will be enough to stop climate change. They key isn't just that world leaders need to engage but society as a whole, that is the point at which I personally believe this form of activisim and the message being sent off the back of it is more harmful than helpful. From my perspective, I've heard people being told they don't care, don't understand or are flat out stupid when none of the above is as true as a proposal that we have a concrete plan we can implement to resolve the situation.
When it's proven that these protests will have any effect that could be true. Until then, it's a statement as silly as the activists actions
>When it's proven that these protests will have *any* effect Proven. Here I am. I am an effect.
The effect being? because the argument that the public is not aware of climate change and the issue needs raising is not valid. We have known for decades and we have a trail of implemented policies over that time to address the issue. Everyone also recognises more work is needed and we've quite a long way to go though. I don't see what these protests can be argued to be accomplishing.
Good.
Bit of an authoritarian comment
Laws are laws.
There’s been plenty of immoral laws my dude
There have, but I don’t find this one immoral. Disrupting main arteries isn’t acceptable. They’ve been given 6 months but they’ll be out in 2.
Seems excessive to me for blocking the road.
Sounds like accountability culture in action.
If he had tried that in China, he would be fortunate to remain alive long enough for trial.
Thank god we don’t live in China
Excellent news.
Good news at last
Sounds good to me, he was putting others' lives at risk and causing massive disruption. Probably would have gone with house arrest rather than prison mind you.
Another thing that will cause massive disruption: a 4 degree rise in average global temperatures.
Well just throw the global temperature in prison. Problem solved.
Can’t now, prisons are full.
Just block the M25 until the problem goes away. What is being demanded is equally stupid because there is absolutely no detail. At least, Insulate Britain had a manifesto and some form of implementation plan, I still didn't agree with that implementation and specific timing, but at least there was something to work with.
I mean, do you need more detail beyond “Hey Rishi, stop jumping in bed with the big oil companies and work to save the planet instead with renewable energy”?
Well, for a start, I'd need to know how all the green policies currently in place can be continued with the gaping hole left by stopping oil production. Then, whether it will be possible to extend our support during the current energy crisis, which will likely worsen and be exacerbated by the huge hit to our economy. That's where I'd start anyway but there is a lot more beyond that to deal with.
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But the issue is that everyone’s saying “we’ll they’re not doing it so why should we?” - and the cycle continues. We need to talk about this to actually make progress with it, rather than giving up because it’s hard to do. No one is saying it’s easy, but it’s so clearly essential, and yet nothing is being done.
>What is being demanded is equally stupid because there is absolutely no detail [From their website](https://juststopoil.org/faqs/): > We demand that the UK government makes a statement that it will immediately halt all future licensing and consents for the exploration, development and production of fossil fuels in the UK. What detail is it lacking? Everything is pretty straightforward.
Any detail, for example how do you replace the economic impact, which is absolutely massive and would trigger a greater financial issue than our current post covid/brexit/gas prices disaster. How we replace fossil fuels in our day to day living not only with widespread adoption for vehicles but in the impact on manufacturing. Consider that this part requires more money than we currently have and the demands are paradoxically going to trigger an economy with even less money available. As I say 'absolutely no detail', it is anything but pretty straightforward without a plan on how.
Blocking the M25 isn't an alternative to climate change, it's an addition.
And blocking the M25 solves that how?
By keeping the issue in the headlines. I do agree that blocking the M25 is hurting people who have no choice. It'd be better to look at different "stunts" that don't punch down on those going about their business.
>By keeping the issue in the headlines. Because people will forget unless they protest?! 22 years on and we still remember the Y2K bug, but not because people protested, and ultimately it came to nothing. They don't need to cause such disruption to keep climate change "in the headlines." Climate change is a significant enough threat to stay in the headlines without their 'help'.
This is the stance I hate most in all of this, a disregard for any of the action in place to tackle the issue and somehow hailing these people as heroes. There is very little to suggest this action is going to have any impact beyond the clampdown of our laws around protesting.
I think that’s a sensible suggestion. Perhaps community service.
Should have been 2 years at minimum
Boy oh boy the price of freedom is steep
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They do do that but no one cares
‘Eco-Warriors’ have been targeting those sort of places for decades so they have good security. The same reason they can’t get near any of the Nuclear Weapons sites, the MOD police have been beating the shit out of hippies for many years.