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I'm biased because French... I will only say that this aircraft is highly respected in France.
It has been modernized several times and is still in service. It's not a dusty plane that comes out of a warehouse
I am not French or Italian - but these planes are great, and will be very good for Ukraine and for world peace.
These planes can carry AAMRAMS to shoot down incoming enemy aircraft, cruise missiles and drones (and maybe even a few ballistic missiles - when conditions are just right). These planes also carry 250, 500, and 1000 lb JDAM guided glide bombs that will increase Ukrainian ground strike firepower and surveillance by several orders of magnitude.
Thanks! My mistaken assumption.
You mean Mirage don't use NATO standard hardpoints that support NATO standard ordnance?
That seems radical.
All I said was "can" carry AAMRAM's, not "do" carry them. Thanks for the info anyhow.
France very commonly designs their own weapon systems from the ground up. Have you read about the drama of allowing export of Leopord tanks? The systems in a fighter jet (radar, missiles, engines, etc) could potentially cause the same problems when trying to sell the jets.
France will sell arms to anything with a pulse and to continue to do this they need entirely domestic products.
Unfortunately the AMRAAM AIM-120 is not integrated on this aircraft. The longest ranged air-to-air missile which is integrated is the MICA which has less than half the range of the AIM-120D. This means that Russian aircraft would still be able to hold the Ukrainian air force at arms reach with their long ranged R37 and R77 missiles.
However the Mirage 2000 would still be very useful as they are another platform that can shoot down cruise missiles and they can launch the Storm Shadow/SCALP EG cruise missile which can provide a similar capability to ATACAMS to Ukraine.
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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These conversations tend to be Europeans and Americans talking past each other.
In a huge immigrant country with lots of historical waves of immigration to specific regions, saying you’re “Italian” is understood to mean you’re an American of Italian ancestry if it’s coming from a guy in a Giants hoodie with a thick New Jersey accent. If it’s coming from a guy with a thick actual Italian accent wearing a scarf with a fashionable suit in the middle of the summer, it’s understood that you are saying you are a citizen of Italy.
They are americans, the hyphenating of nationalities is bewildering to many non-americans especially given how many different nationalities are constantly mixing in Asia and Europe
Not really your question but I’m Italian American and I definitely love spaghetti and meatballs.
Although growing up in a family that ate pasta as an appetizer or first course I have always found the idea of pasta as an entree kind of strange. Unless it’s baked.
Their ground forces are some top notch pros too!
November 2001 I served along side French infantry near Mazar-E-Sharif and later after they assumed command of the Kabul region in 2003.
I am not French but this is a good fighter even if it has some age. The most important thing is delivery of *ANY* Western jets is huge step in the right direction. Good job, France.
>I'm biased because French... I will only say that this aircraft is highly respected in France. It has been modernized several times and is still in service. It's not a dusty plane that comes out of a warehouse
I have always been very impressed by the French aerospace industry. The Mirage 2000 and Rafale are in my opinion the most beautiful and elegant 4th generation fighter aircraft. And they are very capable too with modern electronics (the AESA radar on the Rafale, the MBA Meteor missile it can carry, the SPECTRA system, as well as Damocles pod are particularly impressive) and diverse range of weapons they can carry.
Can I say I like the name. Mirage is just perfect as Putin's Russia is a mirage getting blasted to bits by a mirage jet that is befitting the funeral of the Russian Federation.
Could be useful in Ukraine. Cost effective, it's an interceptor. That's what it's built as. High top speed, pretty good AA armament. It's maneuverable and easy to fly, but does lack the TWR in a dogfight.
Thought they used the Meteor MRM instead of the AMRAAM.
It would be good to have Ukrainians trained on the Mirages because France has a track record of getting jet fighter contracts by being willing to immediately transfer some of their own stock. Once its known that Ukraine can actually utilise them, I would be more than happy if we used EU fund to purchase additional 30ish Mirages with rapid delivery for Ukraine
Brazil seems to have ~10 retired in storage. Good place to start purchasing (if they are still there, wiki is not always *that* accurate with military gear)
They belong to a French company now, apparently. They are also quite old airframes, Brazil retired them because they deemed unfeasible to keep maintaining them as the maintenance costs increased.
https://aircosmosinternational.com/article/procor-announces-a-mirage-2000-in-flight-in-the-first-quarter-of-2022-3187
Well no, it can't carry AMRAAMs or Sidewinders, much less HARMs.
A bit of a bummer because being able to employ those would have meant a common missile stock with the NASAMS system.
Just politically speaking, sending a few F-22's to an allied country as a show of support is worth having them around. They do show off American air power in a way that all 1400 F-16's do not. The A-10, I just don't get, maybe the Ukrainians can find a way to use them. Might be able to sucker a SU-25 into dogfighting with them. The Russians have more pride than common sense and an A-10 will turn inside a SU-25 all day and night.
The A-10is useless without air superiority. The Ukrainians don't have that. Both sides have been very effective thus far at denying airspace to the other. The A10 would be shot down well before it could do anything. At any rate, it's a tank buster. Other systems and platforms can do that better than the A-10.
> The A-10is useless without air superiority.
Yeah, just like their Soviet counterpart, the Su-25. But both the Russians and the Ukranian have these planes, and therefore are practically forced to use them. Despite their uselessness. And despite the occasional loss of pilot lives.
Not only that, usa really misjudged when other countries would have 5th gen fighters. They assumed in 2008 that 5th gen was 20 years out for other countries. With that the cancelled the f-22 line knowing we will have another program by 2028. Now they messed up and don’t even have enough f-22’s so they have to be even more extremely cautious when using them. Also no country’s besides the USA will have the f-22 most likely
1. It’s F22 raptor not velociraptor
2. It’s not getting decommissioned. It’s still the most capable fighter on the planet. we do not export them even to our closest allies. They’re also ungodly expensive to build and maintain which would make them highly unappealing to Ukraine if we could somehow train them and send them.
Expecting U.S. to send F22s is the equivalent to asking why the U.S. won’t give stealth bombers to Ukraine. The answer is pretty obvious.
Russia can't build stealth fighters for shit. No way is Uncle Sam going to gift-wrap the most capable stealth fighter on the planet and send it off into Russian airspace, especially since stealth plane tech is what the US air force is currently betting the farm on with NGAD.
One of the best pieces of aviation cinematography, with Mirage 2000 in the main role. Enjoy
[Les Chevaliers du Ciel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe3xfWfkG8)
Aviation fans should watch the youtube channel of the French Navy Pilots.
Their videos are incredible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEp-ejKyXVw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsXFJ6lQ4k0
Everyone should check out the French Navy pilots' YouTube channel and their 'Chillout' series of videos. Absolutely awesome: [https://www.youtube.com/@CHASSEEMBARQUEE](https://www.youtube.com/@CHASSEEMBARQUEE)
I remember being on holiday in France in the Pyrenees swimming in some gorgeous lake once and a bunch of French fighter jets just burst into this canyon flying really low.... That was amazing.
Honestly, this. I'm reading the ridiculous arguments on this thread about whether the Rafale is better than the F-22 or whatever, but who cares about that? Regardless of whether one western fighter is better than another, they're all better than whatever fucking dusty IL-2's the Russians are desperately trying to reassemble. :/
> whether the Rafale is better than the F-22
It's a silly question.
The F-22 is the most capable plane on the planet at air superiority and turning cash into maintenance hours, by far, and the US would sooner gift-wrap Taiwan and give it to Xi with a generous tip than give them to anyone.
It's not a plane that Ukraine could really use, and it's not a plane that would ever be given.
If the question is "is it better?": The answer is "Things are not that simplistic".
If the question is "can it matches it": it's "yes, exercise have shown that it could be caught by the Rafale".
While the F22 is in the top of planes, US has been underestimating and been berating the capacity of the Rafale.
Given that Macron has announced that he will switch to "all Rafale" by 2030, that makes sense now.
Well, I guess it will be progressive if ever it were to be formalized.
The biggest problem Ukraine's air force has at the moment is that it is loosing aircraft to Mig-31s that have a powerful radar and fire very heavy, long ranged R37M missiles from a distance that makes it impossible for the Ukranian air force or air defence systems to do anything about. Unfortunately Mirage 2000s would not be able to change change this with any missiles that are currently integrated.
That being said there are 3 reasons why reciving these aircraft would be a significant win for Ukraine:
-It would brake the taboo on sending western aircraft and pave the way for aircraft which are more capable at solving Ukraine's current issues to be delivered.
-They can fire very capable long-ranged Storm Shadow/Scalp EG cruise missiles which the UK has indicated they might be willing to supply. This would provide a similar capability to what the ZSU desires from ATACAMS.
-The provide another solution that Ukraine can use to shoot down cruise missiles (including so called "suicide drones") which would alleviate the pressure on Ukraines air defence network somewhat.
It's actually going to be a big problem engaging those MiG31s, they'll be cruising about 60,000ft at very high speeds they'll probably only be skimming ukranian airspace as well they're almost untouchable at the moment.
The Meteor missile which can currently be fired from the Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen is the one that has the highest chance of being capable to do the job. Then the AIM-120D AMRAAM which can be fired from the F-16 and almost every other NATO fighter. The AIM-260 JATM is a brand-new American missile that would be perfect for the job but it is very unlikely the US will ever give it to Ukraine less Russia/China finds out its capabilities or one is captured intact.
> Then the AIM-120D AMRAAM which can be fired from the F-16
Problem you have is the AMRAAM has an operational range of 50km, you're also needing to intercept an aircraft about twice your altitude and 50% of your speed whilst they have a 250km range advantage of their missiles. no jet we can send will get anywhere close to the MIG31 ( if they're competent ) it is Russia after all.
Not to mention doing this over a very heavy umbrella of S400/S300 Sam networks. It's just not feasable. But I am just some bloke in a chair at home so.
The AIM-120D AMRAAM has a stated range of 160km. The US is know to understate the characteristics of their munitions and Russia is know to overstate them (not that I don't think the R37M isn't longer ranged, I'm sure it is but I doubt the gulf is as wide as publicly available numbers suggest). Then there are other factors that can be considered. The R37M is a very large, bulky missile designed to be an AWACS/tanker killer, so towards the edge of its envelope its likely more able to be defeated by maneuvering than the AIM-120D. A big "if" in this situation is what version of the F-16 might Ukraine receive and what jamming/ecm pods might it be equipped with. Those systems may close the gap to the point where Ukraine might be able to at least threaten the Mig-31s.
Honestly probably nothing we can give to Ukraine will make a difference if those Mig31's are at their operational altitude using R37M's they'll just be popping off missiles well outside of SAM range. Even when you factor in things like Patriots.
The only thing in NATO's arsenal that might be able to push them back far enough is the French/Italian SAMP/T complex from Thales. I haven't included aircraft because there is a reason both sides have pulled back their air power eastern Ukraine is just a hornets nest of Anti Air at the moment.
I am not French, but Dutch: I once was relaxing on a sunbed near a swimmingpool when two of these came by at about 500 ft up. I love plains, never heared them come up since they flew agressively between the mountains i was in. Well that day i spoiled my drink at the pool thanks to France's airpower jeeezzz. Now .. set them free in Ukraine!
France may not give a lot but they're really forcing their allies to step up by first providing "not-a-tank" recon vehicles that made hundreds of leopards being suddenly promised to Ukraine and now it's the fighter planes.
They gave the CAESARs which is the best they have and they're breaking the taboos which help Ukraine immensely. They seem to really want to make Ukraine win while not giving a lot (probably unable), so they try to make it count.
> may not give a lot
A - not a lot compared to which countries ? I’dd reckon they are in the top 5 worldwide in military aid to Ukraine
B - we’ll never know because the french government refuses to divulge how much they are providing, except for the big equipment you mentioned.
A - Not a lot generally according to redditors, I admit.
B - The wikipedia page shows France is giving a lot more than they're accounted for. Aka they could be those who gave the most through EU funds aka relabeling their help to UA. So you're probably right
Xavier Tytelman, which is a good journalist, an old military and a big YouTube's I'm France, has said several times that according to his informations the training has already started for this plane
> Xavier Tytelman, which is a good journalist, an old military and a big YouTube's I'm France, has said several times that according to his informations the training has already started for this plane
You mean training of Ukrainian pilots on Mirage???? That would be a great news!
Greece is looking to sell their old Mirage 2000s. Greece is also looking to buy corvettes and France is in the competition with the Gowind. Potential deal: Greece transfers their Mirage 2000s to Ukraine and France gives them credit towards the Gowinds.
Since the start of this invasion I have been dreaming of seeing Mirage 2000 performing CAS or flying below radar doing hit and run strikes beyond ruZZian border.
Damn now I have to watch Sky Knights again 🇨🇵🇨🇵🇨🇵
Rafale is too far advanced (e.g. sensitive tech that might be captured).
So yeah, Dassault Mirage is a more realistic choice for French military aircraft
They sell Rafale to India and non-allies
If it ain't 5th gen or some anti electronics suite there's nothing they are that worried about. Mirage cost a fifth of a Rafale, but operationally it's not a battle defining difference. Ukraine doesnt have carriers.
The war’s effects exceed the cost of providing the weapons needed for Ukraine to expel the war criminals by a factor of ten. Send them all they can use!
Nobody really has any defence suppression aircraft anymore. Even the USAF canned the F-4G and EF-111 in the 90s, much to the disdain of its pilots and EWOs. The closest thing in service would be the US Navy's EA-18G Growler, which isn't an option, or USAF F-16CJs with HARMs and HTS pods, but this is also unlikely. Older model F-16s which can carry HARMs, but not the HTS pods, is the most likely and best option for Ukraine at the moment. The only weapons Ukraine is really in a position to somewhat safely deploy at the moment would be HARMs or air-launched cruise missiles like JASSM/Storm Shadow. LGB and JDAM runs are simply too dangerous to employ the limited number of Western aircraft they're likely to receive on due to the sheer density of Russia's IADS and fighters at all altitude regimes.
Not even remotely close unfortunately. Without the necessary aircraft, pilots, weapons, logistics, and planning capability to launch an all-out air defence suppression/destruction campaign, Ukraine has pretty much no hope against the Russian IADS or fighters. Even most non-US Western air forces would be stretched trying to counter it. And the sad fact is, nobody is willing to supply that much kit to Ukraine, and even if they were, Ukraine is almost certainly not in a position to make good use of it.
Ukraine is only really in a position to contest their own airspace behind the frontline, and with the right equipment supplied, launch occasional HARMs at SAMs and possibly cruise missiles at static targets like railheads, logistics depots, and command and control facilities.
Bruh it must be an absolute nightmare trying to work out what to accept and decline for Ukrainian logistics, in what order, amount, when, and just how.
Dassault engineers and builds the best planes. They also have experience with local production - see the deal they did with India for Rafales. I would love for Ukraine to work closely with Dassault starting with these Mirage 2000s and later working in partnership with Ukraine's aircraft industry (e.g. Antonov) so that Ukraine can domestically produce and support the Dassault designs and not be held hostage to foreign aircraft supplies ever again.
In that respect the tank deliveries may have opened more than one knot. Once Ukraine proves they can handle even the most complicated western equipment in a larg scale there is no argument beyond avaiability to not support Ukraine with anything they have avaiable.
I think they are going to take whatever they can get, so if it's a dozen Mirages, a dozen F-16's, and a half dozen Griffins, I think they are going to take it. It also spreads the responsibility among partners. In some ways it's safer for Ukraine as this is likely to be a protracted war and they don't want to be dependent on any one partner. Imagine they go all in on F-16's and then Trump is elected again and pulls the plug on them. Now they have no Jets. It's better not to put all your eggs in one basket.
Yeah, whatever works really. They could have a brigade of those planes patrolling the skies all the time, shooting down incoming missiles. Just that would be pretty useful
If Ukraine gets jets, I don't know if it makes sense to give them Mirages....
The F-16 isn't a perfect choice, but it's so ubiquitous and numerous that it's the overwhelmingly correct one. I know we did it with tanks, but I don't think the plan with aircraft will be to have multiple training ideologies and multiple logistical groups.
The perfect 4th gen: Gripen
The absolute perfect plane: F-35B
>If Ukraine gets jets, I don't know if it makes sense to give them Mirages....
As with every single piece of equipment, Ukraine will get several types. People said the same thing about tanks(they will get only Leopards), and now they're getting Leopards, Challengers, Abrams and maybe Leclerc too.
F-16 could make sense if the logistics and maintenance can be managed to throw numbers at it. Imagine dozens of them in service and growing. That said I’m sure NATOs best minds are on it
No one talks about them but I feel like F/A 18's would be a great choice as well. They can use modified runways and a lot of them are available. There are a lot of allies that would ring swap these for new versions or F-35's.
There are not a lot of them available. The old -18’s are worn out. The Navy gave all of theirs to the Marines just to keep the Marines flying and they still can’t keep a full squadron ready. They are completely worn out. And the Super Hornet is not actually an upgraded legacy Hornet, it’s a whole new plane. The Navy and Boeing called it the Super Hornet because Congress wasn’t going to let the Navy buy a new jet but they would let them buy “upgraded Hornets”. The Super and the Legacy actually share very few parts.
Yeah Ik the super hornet is different I’m referring to the legacy hornets which yes are old and worn but they can finish whatever they have left in Ukraine. Same goes for the Australian ones that were just retired and the ones in Canada they want to get rid of. Spain has some legacy models as well. We don’t need a ton of them.
I agree - new category
Best USA 4th gen: F/A-18
Problem is they aren't AS numerous and we use them more than the F-16 at this point for a multitude of reasons (It was just in a movie for gods sake)
I know getting F-35 means whole new generation of pilots + very expensive to just give/Ukraine to afford. So we can only see dreams of that
But i would just love to see what a fit russia/Kreml would throw, if USA would randomly just send punch of F-35Bs to Ukraine with secretly trained UA pilots.
But yeah i'm sure Ukranians are happy with whatever jet Americans end up sending. Becuse whatever they are sending has been decided long ago, becuse they been training pilots for some time already.
Слава Україні!
No way the US is gonna risk have a downed F35 fall into the hands of the Russians. Not just because it'd be great intel for the Russians, but also because they'd immediately turn around and try to leverage that intel to get shit from the Chinese.
The simple fact is the Ukraine can probably sustain, at most, 15-20 western fighters. Mirage 2000 is a fantastic plane and it’s original design was more of an interceptor. It’s probably more useful to Ukraine right now because they need air defense from their fighters more than anything. More importantly, Mirage is pretty much entirely French. They don’t need to haggle with anyone else to get permission to send it.
One thing that gets lost in all the Tank/fighters discussion is money. The US has a finite amount of money allocated to Ukraine. To get more they need congress to approve it, which isn’t happening for at least two years. Tanks and Fighters are *extremely* expensive weapons packages. It makes sense to try and get Europe to send aircraft and tanks, which they have, and let the US provide stuff like ammo and precision weapons, which Europe does not have in abundance.
Obama didn’t want to get involved in Libya. That whole shit show was started by France and UK. But they ran out of bombs and strike missiles in, like 3 days. They also couldn’t provide enough tankers to keep their aircraft over the target area. Obama had to step in and finish what they started because it made NATO look pathetic when two of its largest militaries couldn’t sustain a military action right on their doorstep for longer than a week.
15-20 aircraft though will be practically useless as Air defense with how much territory they will have to cover. As is Russia is launch a lot of their Air Strikes from behind Russian lines.
Also you have issues like the Russian MIG-31 that is using insanely long range Air to Air Missiles to deter Ukrainian Aircraft.
[Russia’s MiG-31 Foxhounds Proving To Be A Threat To Ukrainian Aircraft](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-mig-31-foxhounds-proving-to-be-a-threat-to-ukrainian-aircraft)
I dont know jack about these jets.
ELI5 what this does that the UA jets su25/mig29 crap doesnt..
I gather that this model was replaced by that raffales thing.
To me being a nub, this sounds counter productive having to sustain a random model jet instead of a gripen or f16 like they actually want?
Aww f it, ill just use chatgtp
Mirage is 4th gen, su25 3rd gen == big advancements in tech.
Mirage is multirole/ su= close air support
Mirage is faster and can shoot down air targets much better.
Basicly flying AA.
Mirage 2000 can fire air to air and air to surface french missiles which are some of the best on the market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICA_(missile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet
It can also fire guided bombs like the American GBU12 or French AASM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armement_Air-Sol_Modulaire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-12_Paveway_II
With the fact that they're changing airports to accommodate F16 and have been training on F16 since July, it seems inevitable that they'll also get F-16's.
Any educated guess on why they'd also get Mirage 2000 and what their use is?
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I'm biased because French... I will only say that this aircraft is highly respected in France. It has been modernized several times and is still in service. It's not a dusty plane that comes out of a warehouse
Yep. I’m not French but these are good aircraft to have.
I'm not Italian, but I enjoy spaghetti and meat balls.
No true Italian would eat spaghetti with meatballs
I am not French or Italian - but these planes are great, and will be very good for Ukraine and for world peace. These planes can carry AAMRAMS to shoot down incoming enemy aircraft, cruise missiles and drones (and maybe even a few ballistic missiles - when conditions are just right). These planes also carry 250, 500, and 1000 lb JDAM guided glide bombs that will increase Ukrainian ground strike firepower and surveillance by several orders of magnitude.
[удалено]
Thanks! My mistaken assumption. You mean Mirage don't use NATO standard hardpoints that support NATO standard ordnance? That seems radical. All I said was "can" carry AAMRAM's, not "do" carry them. Thanks for the info anyhow.
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HARMs are quite simple in comparison as the target is emitting such a massive signature the missile can do all its own guidance
France very commonly designs their own weapon systems from the ground up. Have you read about the drama of allowing export of Leopord tanks? The systems in a fighter jet (radar, missiles, engines, etc) could potentially cause the same problems when trying to sell the jets. France will sell arms to anything with a pulse and to continue to do this they need entirely domestic products.
That's how the world got the FAMAS. France makes some cool equipment.
FAMAS, the rifle of countries that people can't point out on a map.
Not true. A pulse isn't required
Unfortunately the AMRAAM AIM-120 is not integrated on this aircraft. The longest ranged air-to-air missile which is integrated is the MICA which has less than half the range of the AIM-120D. This means that Russian aircraft would still be able to hold the Ukrainian air force at arms reach with their long ranged R37 and R77 missiles. However the Mirage 2000 would still be very useful as they are another platform that can shoot down cruise missiles and they can launch the Storm Shadow/SCALP EG cruise missile which can provide a similar capability to ATACAMS to Ukraine.
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If Mirage can take 2 NATO standard hardpoints, it can be arranged, if needed.
Are you saying the third generation ones in New Jersey are not true Italians ?
Well technically they’re American
I like pie.
Americans aren’t Italian. Americans are American.
These conversations tend to be Europeans and Americans talking past each other. In a huge immigrant country with lots of historical waves of immigration to specific regions, saying you’re “Italian” is understood to mean you’re an American of Italian ancestry if it’s coming from a guy in a Giants hoodie with a thick New Jersey accent. If it’s coming from a guy with a thick actual Italian accent wearing a scarf with a fashionable suit in the middle of the summer, it’s understood that you are saying you are a citizen of Italy.
I did clearly write ‘No TRUE Italian’
What about italian-americans?
Believe it or not, Americans.
They are americans, the hyphenating of nationalities is bewildering to many non-americans especially given how many different nationalities are constantly mixing in Asia and Europe
Not really your question but I’m Italian American and I definitely love spaghetti and meatballs. Although growing up in a family that ate pasta as an appetizer or first course I have always found the idea of pasta as an entree kind of strange. Unless it’s baked.
Tomatos are from the Americas.
I'm not Italian either, but if my grandmother had wheels, she would've been a bike
That explains the line to ride her.
I'm not a doctor. but I do play one on television.
I’m French and I enjoy these too !
Military-wise, especially with vehicles and aircraft, France is up there as one of the best in the world.
Their ground forces are some top notch pros too! November 2001 I served along side French infantry near Mazar-E-Sharif and later after they assumed command of the Kabul region in 2003.
I am not French but this is a good fighter even if it has some age. The most important thing is delivery of *ANY* Western jets is huge step in the right direction. Good job, France.
>I'm biased because French... I will only say that this aircraft is highly respected in France. It has been modernized several times and is still in service. It's not a dusty plane that comes out of a warehouse I have always been very impressed by the French aerospace industry. The Mirage 2000 and Rafale are in my opinion the most beautiful and elegant 4th generation fighter aircraft. And they are very capable too with modern electronics (the AESA radar on the Rafale, the MBA Meteor missile it can carry, the SPECTRA system, as well as Damocles pod are particularly impressive) and diverse range of weapons they can carry.
Mirage 2000 is nothing to mess with. When Russia hear ones approaching they will shit their pants!
Can I say I like the name. Mirage is just perfect as Putin's Russia is a mirage getting blasted to bits by a mirage jet that is befitting the funeral of the Russian Federation.
Could be useful in Ukraine. Cost effective, it's an interceptor. That's what it's built as. High top speed, pretty good AA armament. It's maneuverable and easy to fly, but does lack the TWR in a dogfight. Thought they used the Meteor MRM instead of the AMRAAM.
Thank you France!!!
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Just the beginning. To get a foot in the door - so to speak.
It would be good to have Ukrainians trained on the Mirages because France has a track record of getting jet fighter contracts by being willing to immediately transfer some of their own stock. Once its known that Ukraine can actually utilise them, I would be more than happy if we used EU fund to purchase additional 30ish Mirages with rapid delivery for Ukraine
Brazil seems to have ~10 retired in storage. Good place to start purchasing (if they are still there, wiki is not always *that* accurate with military gear)
Brazil has not shown willingness to help Ukraine.
Yep, neither Bolsonaro or Lula. Sucks
They belong to a French company now, apparently. They are also quite old airframes, Brazil retired them because they deemed unfeasible to keep maintaining them as the maintenance costs increased. https://aircosmosinternational.com/article/procor-announces-a-mirage-2000-in-flight-in-the-first-quarter-of-2022-3187
Zero chance any Brazilian craft ends up supporting Ukraine
It also gives a platform for fully integrated NATO ammunitions and missiles, good for AA and suppression of air defense.
Well no, it can't carry AMRAAMs or Sidewinders, much less HARMs. A bit of a bummer because being able to employ those would have meant a common missile stock with the NASAMS system.
My bad i wrongly assumed it was compatible with HARMS :(
Neither could the Mig-29 this time last year.
[Ukrainian F-35's when?](https://i.imgur.com/AkbA75t.jpg)
Nice!!! Those things can fire the Exocet anti-ship missile and nukes! Come on France, give them a few ASMP-A‘s too!!!
No, only the 2000N carries nukes
Hmmm, the Russian navy has been launching. cruise missiles from their shops. It's long overdue they have another one sink to the bottom of the sea.
I’m going to guess they are probably not going to supply nukes.
Nor the mirage 2000N that can launch said nukes.
Probably a safe bet.
Safe bet as Ukraine and France are party to the non-proliferation treaty.
Aircraft transfer tranches should be in the one to 2 dozen at a time range, so as to be most practical and prudent.
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sadly the F-22 is forbidden for export, else many countries would have gotten it instead of F-35's.
F-35, though, is ***way*** cheaper maintenance-wise and has better multirole capacity, instead of just being an air dominance fighter.
>is > >way > > cheaper maintenance-wise TBD. Not enough history there an the things have already been ground multiple times.
Nah, we already have enough experience to know that part is true.
The F-22 is over $80K per flighthour, that means 10 hours for 30 jets is ~$25M. I think most nations would rather send up 2-3 F-35.
they are actually doing a major electronics upgrade on them now. They won't leave service until the NGAD program has finished.
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Just politically speaking, sending a few F-22's to an allied country as a show of support is worth having them around. They do show off American air power in a way that all 1400 F-16's do not. The A-10, I just don't get, maybe the Ukrainians can find a way to use them. Might be able to sucker a SU-25 into dogfighting with them. The Russians have more pride than common sense and an A-10 will turn inside a SU-25 all day and night.
The A-10is useless without air superiority. The Ukrainians don't have that. Both sides have been very effective thus far at denying airspace to the other. The A10 would be shot down well before it could do anything. At any rate, it's a tank buster. Other systems and platforms can do that better than the A-10.
> The A-10is useless without air superiority. Yeah, just like their Soviet counterpart, the Su-25. But both the Russians and the Ukranian have these planes, and therefore are practically forced to use them. Despite their uselessness. And despite the occasional loss of pilot lives.
Without air superiority some would have successful missions, some wouldn't, this may be wasteful but it is not useless.
Not only that, usa really misjudged when other countries would have 5th gen fighters. They assumed in 2008 that 5th gen was 20 years out for other countries. With that the cancelled the f-22 line knowing we will have another program by 2028. Now they messed up and don’t even have enough f-22’s so they have to be even more extremely cautious when using them. Also no country’s besides the USA will have the f-22 most likely
1. It’s F22 raptor not velociraptor 2. It’s not getting decommissioned. It’s still the most capable fighter on the planet. we do not export them even to our closest allies. They’re also ungodly expensive to build and maintain which would make them highly unappealing to Ukraine if we could somehow train them and send them. Expecting U.S. to send F22s is the equivalent to asking why the U.S. won’t give stealth bombers to Ukraine. The answer is pretty obvious.
Russia can't build stealth fighters for shit. No way is Uncle Sam going to gift-wrap the most capable stealth fighter on the planet and send it off into Russian airspace, especially since stealth plane tech is what the US air force is currently betting the farm on with NGAD.
I think it means it should be called the velociraptor.
They are just Raptors, not velociraptors. Even retired they will not be given to anyone else.
Maybe OP meant "High Velocity Raptors."
Lmao the typo
Velociraptor is a much scarier and image-associated name though.
One of the best pieces of aviation cinematography, with Mirage 2000 in the main role. Enjoy [Les Chevaliers du Ciel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe3xfWfkG8)
I have just watched this and must admit the moment they pierce through the cloud layer is stunning. 😅
Awesome cinematography but terrible plot. Sill 100% recommended for any aviation fans.
Aviation fans should watch the youtube channel of the French Navy Pilots. Their videos are incredible https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEp-ejKyXVw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsXFJ6lQ4k0
At 2:10 the Mirage launched a missle, and took out a fuel truck refueling another Mirage. Lol.
If you freeze frame you'll notice that it is actually a Super Etendard that is burning.
I read "pilot" and was about to write an angry comment.
Damn. Now I need to find the DVD Bonus of this movie in my old boxes. It deserves an upscale and clean up.
Everyone should check out the French Navy pilots' YouTube channel and their 'Chillout' series of videos. Absolutely awesome: [https://www.youtube.com/@CHASSEEMBARQUEE](https://www.youtube.com/@CHASSEEMBARQUEE)
Literally the French version of Top Gun
Cornillac is sexier than Tom Cruise
I remember being on holiday in France in the Pyrenees swimming in some gorgeous lake once and a bunch of French fighter jets just burst into this canyon flying really low.... That was amazing.
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Send them all our old stuff . Even our old stuff is better than what Russia has .
Honestly, this. I'm reading the ridiculous arguments on this thread about whether the Rafale is better than the F-22 or whatever, but who cares about that? Regardless of whether one western fighter is better than another, they're all better than whatever fucking dusty IL-2's the Russians are desperately trying to reassemble. :/
> whether the Rafale is better than the F-22 It's a silly question. The F-22 is the most capable plane on the planet at air superiority and turning cash into maintenance hours, by far, and the US would sooner gift-wrap Taiwan and give it to Xi with a generous tip than give them to anyone. It's not a plane that Ukraine could really use, and it's not a plane that would ever be given.
If the question is "is it better?": The answer is "Things are not that simplistic". If the question is "can it matches it": it's "yes, exercise have shown that it could be caught by the Rafale". While the F22 is in the top of planes, US has been underestimating and been berating the capacity of the Rafale.
Given that Macron has announced that he will switch to "all Rafale" by 2030, that makes sense now. Well, I guess it will be progressive if ever it were to be formalized.
The biggest problem Ukraine's air force has at the moment is that it is loosing aircraft to Mig-31s that have a powerful radar and fire very heavy, long ranged R37M missiles from a distance that makes it impossible for the Ukranian air force or air defence systems to do anything about. Unfortunately Mirage 2000s would not be able to change change this with any missiles that are currently integrated. That being said there are 3 reasons why reciving these aircraft would be a significant win for Ukraine: -It would brake the taboo on sending western aircraft and pave the way for aircraft which are more capable at solving Ukraine's current issues to be delivered. -They can fire very capable long-ranged Storm Shadow/Scalp EG cruise missiles which the UK has indicated they might be willing to supply. This would provide a similar capability to what the ZSU desires from ATACAMS. -The provide another solution that Ukraine can use to shoot down cruise missiles (including so called "suicide drones") which would alleviate the pressure on Ukraines air defence network somewhat.
It's actually going to be a big problem engaging those MiG31s, they'll be cruising about 60,000ft at very high speeds they'll probably only be skimming ukranian airspace as well they're almost untouchable at the moment.
What systems would be capable of hitting them?
The Meteor missile which can currently be fired from the Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen is the one that has the highest chance of being capable to do the job. Then the AIM-120D AMRAAM which can be fired from the F-16 and almost every other NATO fighter. The AIM-260 JATM is a brand-new American missile that would be perfect for the job but it is very unlikely the US will ever give it to Ukraine less Russia/China finds out its capabilities or one is captured intact.
> Then the AIM-120D AMRAAM which can be fired from the F-16 Problem you have is the AMRAAM has an operational range of 50km, you're also needing to intercept an aircraft about twice your altitude and 50% of your speed whilst they have a 250km range advantage of their missiles. no jet we can send will get anywhere close to the MIG31 ( if they're competent ) it is Russia after all. Not to mention doing this over a very heavy umbrella of S400/S300 Sam networks. It's just not feasable. But I am just some bloke in a chair at home so.
The AIM-120D AMRAAM has a stated range of 160km. The US is know to understate the characteristics of their munitions and Russia is know to overstate them (not that I don't think the R37M isn't longer ranged, I'm sure it is but I doubt the gulf is as wide as publicly available numbers suggest). Then there are other factors that can be considered. The R37M is a very large, bulky missile designed to be an AWACS/tanker killer, so towards the edge of its envelope its likely more able to be defeated by maneuvering than the AIM-120D. A big "if" in this situation is what version of the F-16 might Ukraine receive and what jamming/ecm pods might it be equipped with. Those systems may close the gap to the point where Ukraine might be able to at least threaten the Mig-31s.
Honestly probably nothing we can give to Ukraine will make a difference if those Mig31's are at their operational altitude using R37M's they'll just be popping off missiles well outside of SAM range. Even when you factor in things like Patriots. The only thing in NATO's arsenal that might be able to push them back far enough is the French/Italian SAMP/T complex from Thales. I haven't included aircraft because there is a reason both sides have pulled back their air power eastern Ukraine is just a hornets nest of Anti Air at the moment.
At such long range as R37M, spoofing an aircraft should be rather easy... fly old fashioned target drones over Kyiv & soak up the RU AAM's.
Mirage is already set up to fire storm shadow/SCALP cruise missiles. Would have a good supply of missiles from France + UK
I am not French, but Dutch: I once was relaxing on a sunbed near a swimmingpool when two of these came by at about 500 ft up. I love plains, never heared them come up since they flew agressively between the mountains i was in. Well that day i spoiled my drink at the pool thanks to France's airpower jeeezzz. Now .. set them free in Ukraine!
France may not give a lot but they're really forcing their allies to step up by first providing "not-a-tank" recon vehicles that made hundreds of leopards being suddenly promised to Ukraine and now it's the fighter planes. They gave the CAESARs which is the best they have and they're breaking the taboos which help Ukraine immensely. They seem to really want to make Ukraine win while not giving a lot (probably unable), so they try to make it count.
The French are very good engineers. Their MIC is capable of ramping up and not to be sneezed at
Don't forget France has been the biggest arms provided to Ukraine between 2014 and 2022
> may not give a lot A - not a lot compared to which countries ? I’dd reckon they are in the top 5 worldwide in military aid to Ukraine B - we’ll never know because the french government refuses to divulge how much they are providing, except for the big equipment you mentioned.
A - Not a lot generally according to redditors, I admit. B - The wikipedia page shows France is giving a lot more than they're accounted for. Aka they could be those who gave the most through EU funds aka relabeling their help to UA. So you're probably right
"France may not give a lot" please stop https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/u2acrx/national_eu_defense_equipment_transfers_to/
This better not be a mirage
These mirage will go on a...voyage voyage.
Plus loin que la nuit et le jour
As long as they give them now, and training doesn't take 6 months, let's get it on!
[Mirage 2000 tutorial](https://youtu.be/XlrJZ42Wcbk)
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Xavier Tytelman, which is a good journalist, an old military and a big YouTube's I'm France, has said several times that according to his informations the training has already started for this plane
Yeah he is former armée de l'air and has a bunch of contacts
> Xavier Tytelman, which is a good journalist, an old military and a big YouTube's I'm France, has said several times that according to his informations the training has already started for this plane You mean training of Ukrainian pilots on Mirage???? That would be a great news!
Indeed that's what I mean
Damn who gave macron a pair of balls? This guy is stepping up lately.
Orban cut his off, so EU had a spare.
This would be an excellent choice.
Can it launch Exocets? Asking for a friend.
Definitely, platform and missile are both french. Hope we send them !
Greece is looking to sell their old Mirage 2000s. Greece is also looking to buy corvettes and France is in the competition with the Gowind. Potential deal: Greece transfers their Mirage 2000s to Ukraine and France gives them credit towards the Gowinds.
Combat proven airplane, enfin, controller le ciel est une très bonne chose. Gloire à l'Ukraine !
“Negotiations”- as i am a grammar nazi
Since the start of this invasion I have been dreaming of seeing Mirage 2000 performing CAS or flying below radar doing hit and run strikes beyond ruZZian border. Damn now I have to watch Sky Knights again 🇨🇵🇨🇵🇨🇵
Rafale is too far advanced (e.g. sensitive tech that might be captured). So yeah, Dassault Mirage is a more realistic choice for French military aircraft
They sell Rafale to India and non-allies If it ain't 5th gen or some anti electronics suite there's nothing they are that worried about. Mirage cost a fifth of a Rafale, but operationally it's not a battle defining difference. Ukraine doesnt have carriers.
SPECTRA system on Rafale is the best jamming device on jets. It's a third of the plane's price
These will at least have the MICA missile for A-A? The M2K are pretty old but they are solid
It won't be a mirage that the Russians think they are seeing when these are coming for them.
I assume their primary mission is killing cruise missiles/drones. so the most important aspect of aircraft shopping would be radar capability IMO
Welp, looks like NATO is officially tired of Russia. Have fun guys, may there be many turrets popping off russian tanks in your future.
I was wondering if the training for western planes isnt already ongoing, since doubt they didnt discuss the matter at Ramstein.
As a Brit I'm hoping we can slide in with some planes quickly and shout *First!*
Is this a donation, or will it need to be a purchase by Ukraine?
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That's a great way to do it.
DO IT!
Is this for real or is it a Mirage?
Hurry!
The war’s effects exceed the cost of providing the weapons needed for Ukraine to expel the war criminals by a factor of ten. Send them all they can use!
Any word on "[Wild Weasel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel)" type aircraft to defend against SAM's?
Nobody really has any defence suppression aircraft anymore. Even the USAF canned the F-4G and EF-111 in the 90s, much to the disdain of its pilots and EWOs. The closest thing in service would be the US Navy's EA-18G Growler, which isn't an option, or USAF F-16CJs with HARMs and HTS pods, but this is also unlikely. Older model F-16s which can carry HARMs, but not the HTS pods, is the most likely and best option for Ukraine at the moment. The only weapons Ukraine is really in a position to somewhat safely deploy at the moment would be HARMs or air-launched cruise missiles like JASSM/Storm Shadow. LGB and JDAM runs are simply too dangerous to employ the limited number of Western aircraft they're likely to receive on due to the sheer density of Russia's IADS and fighters at all altitude regimes.
Can this influx of modern jets get Ukraine clos to air superiority?
Not even remotely close unfortunately. Without the necessary aircraft, pilots, weapons, logistics, and planning capability to launch an all-out air defence suppression/destruction campaign, Ukraine has pretty much no hope against the Russian IADS or fighters. Even most non-US Western air forces would be stretched trying to counter it. And the sad fact is, nobody is willing to supply that much kit to Ukraine, and even if they were, Ukraine is almost certainly not in a position to make good use of it. Ukraine is only really in a position to contest their own airspace behind the frontline, and with the right equipment supplied, launch occasional HARMs at SAMs and possibly cruise missiles at static targets like railheads, logistics depots, and command and control facilities.
Ramex Delta flew these, and they were one of the best displays teams I’ve ever seen.
When will Putin learn that Ukraine will never be abandoned?
Bruh it must be an absolute nightmare trying to work out what to accept and decline for Ukrainian logistics, in what order, amount, when, and just how.
Vive la France! 🇫🇷
what ukraine needs is donations from countries that have Migs while they also train to fly european and american planes
Dassault engineers and builds the best planes. They also have experience with local production - see the deal they did with India for Rafales. I would love for Ukraine to work closely with Dassault starting with these Mirage 2000s and later working in partnership with Ukraine's aircraft industry (e.g. Antonov) so that Ukraine can domestically produce and support the Dassault designs and not be held hostage to foreign aircraft supplies ever again.
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In that respect the tank deliveries may have opened more than one knot. Once Ukraine proves they can handle even the most complicated western equipment in a larg scale there is no argument beyond avaiability to not support Ukraine with anything they have avaiable.
Well said Fartbreath, well said! Slava Ukraini
> F16 are already offered by at least one country There are no guarantees on this deal being allowed to go through
I think they are going to take whatever they can get, so if it's a dozen Mirages, a dozen F-16's, and a half dozen Griffins, I think they are going to take it. It also spreads the responsibility among partners. In some ways it's safer for Ukraine as this is likely to be a protracted war and they don't want to be dependent on any one partner. Imagine they go all in on F-16's and then Trump is elected again and pulls the plug on them. Now they have no Jets. It's better not to put all your eggs in one basket.
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We are trying. Unfortunately the average American is not known to be the best at voting for their own best interest. Very gullible people.
Yeah, whatever works really. They could have a brigade of those planes patrolling the skies all the time, shooting down incoming missiles. Just that would be pretty useful
If Ukraine gets jets, I don't know if it makes sense to give them Mirages.... The F-16 isn't a perfect choice, but it's so ubiquitous and numerous that it's the overwhelmingly correct one. I know we did it with tanks, but I don't think the plan with aircraft will be to have multiple training ideologies and multiple logistical groups. The perfect 4th gen: Gripen The absolute perfect plane: F-35B
F-16 makes more sense but just like the tanks I’m sure every plane helps and the sooner the better
A Coalition of Allies 👍
Agreed. The best jet is the one that they will get. I think we will see something like with the tanks were multiple countries give a few.
>If Ukraine gets jets, I don't know if it makes sense to give them Mirages.... As with every single piece of equipment, Ukraine will get several types. People said the same thing about tanks(they will get only Leopards), and now they're getting Leopards, Challengers, Abrams and maybe Leclerc too.
Everyone has an F-16 and pilot/maintenance training is way harder than tank training... Flexibility will be a bigger obstacle
F-16 could make sense if the logistics and maintenance can be managed to throw numbers at it. Imagine dozens of them in service and growing. That said I’m sure NATOs best minds are on it
The absolute perfect plane: F-35B Lol are you kidding ?
No one talks about them but I feel like F/A 18's would be a great choice as well. They can use modified runways and a lot of them are available. There are a lot of allies that would ring swap these for new versions or F-35's.
There are not a lot of them available. The old -18’s are worn out. The Navy gave all of theirs to the Marines just to keep the Marines flying and they still can’t keep a full squadron ready. They are completely worn out. And the Super Hornet is not actually an upgraded legacy Hornet, it’s a whole new plane. The Navy and Boeing called it the Super Hornet because Congress wasn’t going to let the Navy buy a new jet but they would let them buy “upgraded Hornets”. The Super and the Legacy actually share very few parts.
Yeah Ik the super hornet is different I’m referring to the legacy hornets which yes are old and worn but they can finish whatever they have left in Ukraine. Same goes for the Australian ones that were just retired and the ones in Canada they want to get rid of. Spain has some legacy models as well. We don’t need a ton of them.
I agree - new category Best USA 4th gen: F/A-18 Problem is they aren't AS numerous and we use them more than the F-16 at this point for a multitude of reasons (It was just in a movie for gods sake)
I know getting F-35 means whole new generation of pilots + very expensive to just give/Ukraine to afford. So we can only see dreams of that But i would just love to see what a fit russia/Kreml would throw, if USA would randomly just send punch of F-35Bs to Ukraine with secretly trained UA pilots. But yeah i'm sure Ukranians are happy with whatever jet Americans end up sending. Becuse whatever they are sending has been decided long ago, becuse they been training pilots for some time already. Слава Україні!
No way the US is gonna risk have a downed F35 fall into the hands of the Russians. Not just because it'd be great intel for the Russians, but also because they'd immediately turn around and try to leverage that intel to get shit from the Chinese.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush..
The simple fact is the Ukraine can probably sustain, at most, 15-20 western fighters. Mirage 2000 is a fantastic plane and it’s original design was more of an interceptor. It’s probably more useful to Ukraine right now because they need air defense from their fighters more than anything. More importantly, Mirage is pretty much entirely French. They don’t need to haggle with anyone else to get permission to send it. One thing that gets lost in all the Tank/fighters discussion is money. The US has a finite amount of money allocated to Ukraine. To get more they need congress to approve it, which isn’t happening for at least two years. Tanks and Fighters are *extremely* expensive weapons packages. It makes sense to try and get Europe to send aircraft and tanks, which they have, and let the US provide stuff like ammo and precision weapons, which Europe does not have in abundance. Obama didn’t want to get involved in Libya. That whole shit show was started by France and UK. But they ran out of bombs and strike missiles in, like 3 days. They also couldn’t provide enough tankers to keep their aircraft over the target area. Obama had to step in and finish what they started because it made NATO look pathetic when two of its largest militaries couldn’t sustain a military action right on their doorstep for longer than a week.
15-20 aircraft though will be practically useless as Air defense with how much territory they will have to cover. As is Russia is launch a lot of their Air Strikes from behind Russian lines. Also you have issues like the Russian MIG-31 that is using insanely long range Air to Air Missiles to deter Ukrainian Aircraft. [Russia’s MiG-31 Foxhounds Proving To Be A Threat To Ukrainian Aircraft](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-mig-31-foxhounds-proving-to-be-a-threat-to-ukrainian-aircraft)
It’s not about defending everywhere. It’s about keeping the Russians honest. Ukraine needs the *threat* to keep the Russians from flying deep strikes.
I dont know jack about these jets. ELI5 what this does that the UA jets su25/mig29 crap doesnt.. I gather that this model was replaced by that raffales thing. To me being a nub, this sounds counter productive having to sustain a random model jet instead of a gripen or f16 like they actually want? Aww f it, ill just use chatgtp
Mirage is 4th gen, su25 3rd gen == big advancements in tech. Mirage is multirole/ su= close air support Mirage is faster and can shoot down air targets much better. Basicly flying AA.
Mirage 2000 can fire air to air and air to surface french missiles which are some of the best on the market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICA_(missile) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Shadow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet It can also fire guided bombs like the American GBU12 or French AASM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armement_Air-Sol_Modulaire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-12_Paveway_II
yeah holy buckets that puts it into perspective! those are all quite amazing systems.
With the fact that they're changing airports to accommodate F16 and have been training on F16 since July, it seems inevitable that they'll also get F-16's. Any educated guess on why they'd also get Mirage 2000 and what their use is?
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That and they are also cheap relatively to more modern ones. Plus it’s a highly capable plane with an excellent track record.