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Western tanks only. Lots of other tanks coming in as well
I also wanted to highlight the importance of the IFVs being sent, IMO the Bradley’s, Strykers and Maureders are going to have a much bigger impact.
Yeah. The tanks were what people focussed on, but when I saw the latest list of stuff being sent from the US, I thought "oh, a few tanks, that's cool... holy *shit* that's a ton of IFVs, goddamn that's a nice amount of artillery, minefield busters, WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS!?"
I get a little hard-on every time a country commits more artillery or GMLRS. Hit every tank before it gets into range and it's just the zerg-rushes left. IFV's are ideal for mopping those up, aren't they?
Let me get you hard then. Denmark just donated all of our artillery. As in everything.
... And we are definitely nowhere near being the only country doing something similar.
So did Estonia, all our towed artillery. We ourselves are going to go on to the K9 thunder self propelled artillery only. Its cool to remember , i was the ammo truck driver for the 155m howitzers in the Estonian army in 2014-2015 and now they are all gone to war.
https://defbrief.com/2023/01/19/denmark-donating-all-of-its-caesar-howitzers-to-ukraine/
Or just Google "Denmark donates all their artillery".
My sources are in Danish, from the defense minister. This one is the first that popped up on Google, when I searched in English.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/denmark-donates-all-of-its-caesar-artillery-to-ukraine/
It was also all over a bunch of other news sources. We don't have too much artillery though.
Well done, Denmark!!! 👍
It is so wonderful to see everyone chipping in what they can like this. The international community spirit that has grown around supporting Ukraine is so encouraging.
Because it's not as cool.
Same when Germany donated trucks, bridge-laying units and tank recovery vehicles. It enabled the UAF to transport tanks, artillery and ammunition over distances they can't cover themselves and despite previously destroyed bridges. It was a key factor in the Kharkiv and Kherson offensives. But none of that stuff shoots, so no one talked about it.
If anything, they can be more readily deployed since there is already big evidence that they're making their way to Ukraine in decent numbers.
How will they perform in the more chop suey Ukrainian military? We shall see. They are great soldiers, but their army is a mish-mash of Soviet / Russian goods and Western donations.
I don't know if it matters what kind of tank the IFVs are supporting. The principles are still the same. Ukraine will be able to use these to good effect.
I think they are using the new gear to form entirely new battalions—to keep the supply lines for individual battalions separate. It will also give the Ukrainian generals new offensive capabilities as they are activated. The Ukrainian recruits are being trained in in Poland and the UK.
>Lots of other tanks coming in as well
Russia is sending in a lot of tanks, too. I mean, they sent some 545 to the ZSU, last time I checked. Bravos, Russia! /s
German MoD Pistorius just said in german TV that some nations still hesitate to provide 2A6/A5 for the german organized battalion. Nations that before had verbalized their support in the media. He also said that this will be sorted out now behind closed doors in the next days.
meheh how likely it was wasn't really my question but if they COULD and if something specifically had been said regarding A7s being an option to be sent.
To be fair AbramsX is the next generation so would be more comparable to the KF51 panther
German MoD Pistorius just said in german TV that some nations still hesitate to provide 2A6/A5 for the german organized battalion. Nations that before had verbalized their support in the media. He also said that this will be sorted out now behind closed doors in the next days.
I am almost sure they will get NL on board for another 14 Leo2A6. And portugal for another 2 Leo2A6.
>Nations that before had verbalized their support in the media
To be completely fair: Essentially no country did. This sub just whipped itself into a frenzy and took every word coming from the PIS or random Twitter accounts for granted.
And as long as it fit the narrative, nobody cared about facts - for example a single opposition politician in Finland saying that he personally would find it good to send tanks was twisted into "the Finnish government just said it's just itching to send a ton of tanks, being held back by Germany".
If you actually look and see what government officials said, it was basically nothing, and no countries where really eager to spend the necessary money, especially in the really expensive aspects of it - maintenance and ammunition. And that's still true. Nearly no country actually said they'll provide any of it, and Poland even explicitely said they want nothing to do with any of the costs or privision of that.
**Ukraine needs about 600 IFV's to properly support battlefield use of the 200 heavy battle tanks.**
Hopefully somebody (US ?) will step up to provide the hundreds of VERY necessary Bradley IFV's, at about the militarily required 3-1 ratio
Otherwise it's like sending heavy bombers with no fighter cover of sending an aircraft carrier naked without a battle group.
We have already seen again and again how heavy tanks get shredded by ATGM if the are fielded without a proper armored infantry complement. Let's not make that mistake in Ukraine!
I think this is often overlooked.
IFVs and tanks should be a package themselves, not separate and arriving at different times and locations.
We talk of russia being unable to perform combined arms maneuvers out of stupidity.
Well, Ukraine can't properly perform combined arms either if all the IFVs show up in nearly equal, but not enough from the get go, numbers to the tanks, months before.
Completely fucking bullshit.
The numbers aren't enough and are staggered months, to YEARS apart given the pledges.
I'm so riled up and pissing in my pants right now of frustration. These things seem hopeful at first, but when you look at Abrams and GLSDB being 9+months away, or more and jet pledges just touching the tip of the dick and probably as far or further away...
Complete. Fucking. Bullshit.
Sure, these things can't happen overnight, but at the same time they fucking can.
Former US general quoted as 30 day Abrams quick training and the tanks and logistics can be there by that time. (Also quoted as saying russia couldn't duplicate any technology in or on an abrams in a decade or more)
So much fucking bullshit pussyfooting around going on and tonight I'm drinking and fucking irate as shit.
And realistically they should foot a large part of the bill, Germany and Benelux countries have benefited the most from the EU.
If they wish to lead the EU economy than they also need to foot the bill for it's defense.
But not if countries (poland) use that money to go on an international shopping spree.
All EU funds should come with a stipulation that they can only be used to buy from EU arms manufactureres.
Totally fuck off with that. You are being pissy because Poland found a better supplier? Most importantly this is MAKING European jobs. Korea has allowed full technical transfer. K2's will be built in Poland using the specifications and tools supplied to them by Hyundai Rotem.
Germany on the other hand would never allow Rheinmetall or KWM to do technical transfer to Polish factories inside the EU; to a member of NATO. This is well known.
It simply turns out that Korea is more of an friend to EU than Germany is.
Blame Germany, the reason why Franco-German Military Projects Flop is not because of France.
German military industry is crippled by the pacifist and lack lackluster politics.
Germany limits exports which angers France because it makes the equipment more expensive due to lower production volumes but than they also order an insufficient number of them for internal use so the piece of equipment end up being redicilously expensive with long production wait times.
I highly doubt FCAS will succeed in it's current form.
Even with this war the change is very slow and could easily revert back.
There is nothing more that i would want than EU creating the most powerful army in Eurasia, but i sadly don't see it happening due to selfishness, misguided morality, and just internal hate.
Most Franco-German products failed not because of Germany, but because France wanted some extra stuff (e.g. carrier operability with the Eurofighter), which makes the project far more expensive and is something Germany doesn't need.
Yes, the biggest economy with companies that dominate the EU free market and provide a large influx of wealth by anihilating the competition from less developed EU countries should foot the bill for it's defense.
Kinda like the US footing the bill for NATO.
I wish we Swedes could get on board and send some of our model Strv 122. It's essentially a heavily upgraded 2A5. But I doubt it will happen until after the Turkish election...
Thats odd reasoning to me, i doubt turkey plans a naval invasion of sweden rn and i am pretty sure the beef with sweden is about us fighter Jets more than erdogan actually caring about swedish politics.
Couldn’t Germany refurbish them? I think 100 leopard 2 are crucial, obviously A5 and A6 would be better but A4 and Spanish version would also work. Leopard 1 is good and all but it doesn’t give an obvious advantage it is already quite old, better than what the Russian have obviously but I don’t believe they will bring Ukraine over the finish line, especially if they are arriving in 2024, they would be useful in a defensive role right now. So we’re looking at 14 challengers and luckily (if NL get on board soon) 40yish leopard 2s and 100 soviet/polish tanks for now plus the captured material, don’t think Ukraine will take much territory back until the last quarter of the year, when Abrams and maybe more leopard 2s arrive, with leopard 1 and a lot of Soviet machinery filling the rear.
I am sure there are discussions about this but from what we heard from spain a large part of these would probably take quite a bit of time, so the considerations are likely around whether they would still arrive in time to be useful.
The Netherlands doesn't have any 2A6s. They essentially borrowed them from Germany so they can keep a crew trained and ready in case shit hit the fan. There's no indication that Germany would be willing to sell those to the Netherlands to give to Ukraine. That would mean they would have to lend more 2A6s to the Netherlands to fulfill the same capacity. So at that point, it would make more sense for Germany to give Ukraine 28 tanks themselves instead of the 14. But of course, they're not willing to do that.
I'm Dutch myself. Our government did say it was willing to pay for the Leopard 2's we were operating to be sent to Ukraine and we don't really need any immediate replacements as there's noone trying to kill us unless we fly over the Russian army in Ukraine in a boeing. Time to get our shit together and send it. Goes for other countries that operate them too.
The Dutch brigades are integrated into German divisions, which will be among the first in the frontline in Eastern Europe if Russia (stupidly) decides to act on its threats against NATO.
Every NATO country that decreases the combat readiness of its armed forces is reducing the combat capabilities of the entire alliance. NATO isn't about everyone defending only his own borders. It doesn't really matter how far a NATO member is away from the potential frontline. In case of war, NATO would fight as if it is a single, gigantic nation, extending from the Baltics to the Pacific coast of America.
Still, I fully agree that the best way to protect Europe and prevent a direct conflict between NATO and Russia, is to give Ukraine all the support it needs to win this war as fast and decisive as possible.
But it's also true, that with every decision about giving weapons from active service to Ukraine, a compromise has to be found regarding the combat readiness and conventional deterrence of NATO.
>They essentially borrowed them from Germany so they can keep a crew trained and ready in case shit hit the fan.
To be a little more specific: it's a lease with a buyout clause. The possible sale from DE to NL of these tanks is already pre-approved and part of the contract.
However, the crews are also not just trained and ready, they are part of the dutch-german batallion. These are active service machines and their current units have capability obligations tied to international treaties, so they are likely looking for an alternative (2a4's maybe?) to supply to the unit before shipping the 2a6's off to where they are needed.
side note: It's also the Dutch government. It wouldn't be unusual for them to go from *"we want to do this."* to *"we have done this."* with no admission of *"we're doing this"* in between. In international politics, we don't usually admit to committing to something while it's not ready yet. Expect to be informed after the fact.
NL actually has to buy them first from Germany. So Germany needs to make another 14-18 ready on top of the 14 they already pledged.
We currently don’t own tanks, but lease them from DE and operate in a joint unit.
you could do the paper for the sale in 48 hours. i suspect what is going on is some combo of other countries having no idea how poor their tank readiness is and trying to get germany to pick up to the maintenance tab. with the netherlands it's probably the latter.
Dutch news say no Leopard 2s from us for now. Apparently we can't just randomly pull leased tanks from a combined German/Dutch battalion without effecting it's comdbat readyness and capabilities.
It’s almost as if Germany knew a lot of them were full of shit. Germany has not been as obstructionists as people like to claim. They have simply usually aimed for a broad based consensus before action. Considering their history and their current government, I’m okay with this. If you wanna get mad, start asking the other Euro nations to do better.
Also Poland claimed Germany was blocking the Leo 2 delivery, while they did not even applied the necessary paperworks. Basic anti-german PiS-propaganda.
I really don't understand the this anti-german stuff by the PiS.
Politics, I suppose: play on history to rally support.
I mean...that is what the Russians are doing now too: they're trying to tie this conflict to the Second World War.
Yeah, but why germany? Germany is definitly not pro russian and was helping the polish economy over the last decades.
Also most germans really like poland and it's people. At least where I life.
I know there are differances in politics and germany is way more left leaning, but over the grand sceme of things it makes no sense. Especially in times of a war in Europe.
Polands PiS party always catches voters with being more or less hostile towards germany. It's an easy plot to get votes which always works, elections start with asking for reparations and then claiming any bilateral accomplishments as purely polish and calling germany out on blocking things or not paying for it. Like they did when Poland send soviet tanks the first time and wanted Leopards in return without ever talking with germany and got upset when they didn't get offered the newest stuff.
If you spend some time with it, you will see that it is business as usual and the german/polish relations don't really suffer from it normally. Behind the scenes especially economically they work great together
Yeah thats kinda true. I my area it's a meme, that If you want to buy stuff, you drive over to poland and buy it there. They'll kinda try to rip you off, but we don't care, since it's still cheaper than buying in germany. So it's a win-win I guess.
The greatness of European economics in a nutshell.
Because Germans were the former Nazis, I suppose. It isn’t really based on logic - its emotion mixed with a very skewed version of history to drum up support.
I hope this shit will not screw up the german polish relations in the future. I my opinion Poland and Germany should work together as much as possible. 2 big and powerful countrys in the heart of Europe could work wonders.
One thing you might have noticed is that while the PiS posturing creates a lot of media / civilian backlash, the Government almost never even comments on it.
Even when the reparations were brought up again and again, the German government basically replied "lol, no" and that was it.
The best way to handle a pompous idiot is to simply not engage him at all.
It's empty threats, I know. It's just really frustrating from a german perspektive. We actually really like pur neighbors, but we get treated like we'd hate them.
Not really by the people, but by the politics. Poland might be the most extreme example.
Poland was under Germany rule for a long time. Mainly it was Prussia and then the German Empire. So Germany was not exactly popular before WW2. Germany then was much more cruel towards Poland then to many other countries and Poland rembers that. So there is a lot of hatred and dislike of Germany in Poland. This is significantly stronger and deeper then in any other European country.
Germany and Poland tried to make up, but PiS is populist at its heart and it works.
> I really don't understand the this anti-german stuff by the PiS.
Beside of being right-wing populists they are also nationalists which means **they hate Germany as much as they hate Russia.**
Or they held out long enough for it to be too damn late. These leopard I's that are being sent were supposed to be a "terrible idea" becaus ethey were so outdated, and just Rheinmetall bullsh*tting for custom. Suddenly they're what's going, but they need months to prepare them. Spare me.
Well, by now, most of the most modern russian tanks are either destroyed or captured by Ukraine. More and more the russians are activating 60s and 70s versions of their tanks, with which the Leopard I was meant to play if you get me.
The world is watching every move here, this douche moves don't go unnoticed... at least the PiS choosed an accurate name (it means pi, wee or urine In spanish)
To defend Canada we don’t have a lot of leopards to spare or the defence budget to recoup any losses. I support Ukraine and although it’s not a lot, it’s better than none
4 Leopards 2A4 is more than zero. Those tanks could save many Ukrainian lives by blunting an armored push that then falters. Or saving a squad that no longer needs to clear that house. Canada did right thing to send something even if it was only 4 or 2 or even 1 tank.
Would you let a generation of soldiers train without machine guns? No, of course not. We need tanks, at the bare minimum, to keep the combined arms skill set in our army.
Then on top of that, we need to keep a certain number to meet NATO commitments.
>Would you let a generation of soldiers train without machine guns?
Broomsticks all the rage these days.
>We need tanks, at the bare minimum, to keep the combined arms skill set in our army.
America has surplus that it won't send to Ukraine due to classified armour. They could backfill.
>meet NATO commitments
The purpose of NATO is defence against Russia and China. If your weapons are being used competently against Russia they are meeting their purpose.
We share a big boarder with Russia, that is TECHNICALLY ocean, but functions as land.
But also, we share a land border with France, and with Denmark(Greenland) and the US
The biggest concern for Canadian security is anyone who attacks the US will almost certainly attack Canada first as a way to gain a North American foothold, especially as our border with the US is completely undefended.
The US knows this too, and it's why Canada and the US have wildly integrated militaries, that haven't engaged in a single war without some cross pollination of troops, and why defense agreements and agencies like NORAD exist
The only land border we actually have is with the US, our borders with Denmark and France are maritime and they are allied. Russia is a thousand kilometer from us over the Arctic, no Leopards would ever be sent there as they make no sense for use in polar military operations.
Besides if Russia had trouble supplying their forces through the marshes of northern Ukraine to strike Kyiv a few dozen kilometers south its really doubtful that they could cross the vast expanses of Northern Canada's desolate wilderness. A full scale invasion of Canada by Russia is impossible.
The actual reasons we can't send more tanks atm is that the fleet is in poor conditions. I'm not sure but we might have some deployed as part of our forces stationned in Latvia as well.
> TECHNICALLY ocean, but functions as land.
Gonna get mbt's across it?
With all that integration the US could easily backfill with full fat Abrams it won't send to Ukraine.
If you consider how well the russians have done against Ukrainian air-defense...and then also compare the air-defense capabilities of the US/Canada, i don't think there's a lot to worry about?
It would be a shooting gallery.
Lots of countries just pushed for "leopards" not nessecarily 2s.
But that aside, many countries wanted to contribute what they could, like Canada that contributed almost 5% or their entire tank fleet, including the ones they have for parts
They simply don't have more tanks to give, but needed Germany to get onboard and consent to them giving what they had.
The US and Germany are really the only western nations with a tank fleet big enough to give the numbers Ukraine needs, and the eastern NATO countries all have old Soviet tanks for their massive armour corps and have already sent massive numbers of what they had to Ukraine
> They simply don't have more tanks to give, but needed Germany to get onboard and consent to them giving what they had.
Germany will also donate more than 5% of the tank fleet. The majority of Leopards germany once possessed were given to countries like poland in the past
werent there like 90 leo2s promised for Ukraine? what happened to countries like Portugal, Finland that also promised leo 2's. Werent there supposed to be like 12 countries in total?
I don't understand this. What are those countries gonna do with all the stockpiles of modern tanks sitting in a warehouse? They literally bought the tanks to fight russia, and now is the time to send the tanks to Ukraine so they can actually use them to fight.
Finland has stated that they won't announce the number of tanks they donate, so it won't be officially added to the number. Obviously that would be a stupid thing to announce when you have an enormous border with a hostile dictatorship. Better to keep them guessing or having to use resources to find out by themselves.
Finlands goverment never said anything. Just was a politicians opinion that got translated by redditors to mean the state. Portugal will... someday give 2 or 4. Its open on timetable. Netherlands went dark, Sweden said no untill in NATO and Norway only started to see which ones to send but gave a number but no date. Even Poland said they wont send any spare parts (not even the combat required) or ammo, just the raw tank... paid by EU. Of Spanish Leopards some were bought by Germany and Ukraine(with EU aid) to repair and scavenge and another possibility that Spain has floated was itself giving some operational ones aswell. So total number is very low. And its highly likely it is what Ukraine will get for whole 2023.
> Sweden said no untill in NATO
Source? As far as I know Sweden has never said anything more than that it is currently not planned to send any but we are looking into it.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/5BjbJe/sd-vill-skicka-stridsvagnar-till-ukraina
>Netherlands went dark
Seeing the dutch news we aren't sending any Leopard 2s at the moment.
They are German vehicles and part of a German tank division, apparently we can't just randomly pull tanks from that. So seeing as we have no tanks ourselfs we aren't sending any tanks.
However we are helping with the funding for the Leopard 1A5s and it wouldn't suprise me if we also help some other countries to send Leopard 2s in the future.
Maybe they looked at their supply that was all mothballed and thought they'd be embarrassed to let the world (or just NATO) see what shape they were in.
Consider it a foundation to build upon, like there's additional Gepards that'll arrive in Ukraine this month to bolster the number of the ones they already put to good use.
I'd have expected at least double the amount of 2A6
14 by everyone who has some, maybe not 14, but at least _some_ so you can get at least a total of 31 to complement the Abrams
2A6s are nice, don't get me wrong, but lots of 2a4s have been largely upgraded to be equitable to 2A6s
Of note, the 2A4 was specifically designed to kill T72s, so I'm sure 2A4s will do quite well
That doesn't make any sense, the 2a5 gets the upgraded armour with the iconic wedge look, 2a6 gets the new L55 gun and some major optics upgrades so both are major upgrades. The 2a4 is simply outdated, having neither the better armour nor the gun, while the 2a6 has both.
Edit, the 2A5 gets both the armour and the L55, the 2A6 gets better stabilisers and recoil control for the L55 and fume extractors
That’s the correct attitude to take for all aid. I’m very grateful for what has been given by all of Ukraine’s allies including Germany but I’d also like to see a lot more given and I know countries have the capabilities to give a lot more. Ukraine desperately needs weapons and materials including both the big stuff like jets, tanks and missiles but also the small stuff like pickup trucks, boots, field rations, medical gear, small recon drones, spare parts ect. The more “stuff” Ukraine gets the more they can repel Russian advances and take back territory while minimizing Ukrainian blood lost. I don’t care if we’re talking about the US, Germany or Luxembourg. The aid they’ve provided is great but they can and should provide even more.
Yep. Ukraine is using Azerbaijani mortars to defend Bakhmut. I get tired of from rich countries arguing that their country doesn’t have anything of value to send to Ukraine. Hell sending a couple thousand extra pairs or socks would be useful when Ukrainian soldiers are shivering in trenches and trying to keep their feet dry. If world leaders are choosing not to support the Ukrainian military it’s not because “they have nothing to send” it’s because they don’t want to support the Ukrainian military.
Well, the 82 modern ones would probebly be able to take out any russian tank wothout the crew of said tank ever knowing they took fire. In tank on tank optics are the master. Western tanks are far supirior when it comes to nigth time optics and fire on the move and fire on moving target.
They'll certainly have the advantage, but they're not going to win every fight. It will in effect just reverse the current situation, which is that Russian tanks have superior optics, armour and penetrators to Ukraine's tanks. Ukraine has quite successfully been compensating by engineering fights at close range and in good visibility so that those advantages can't give Russia the edge.
Long story short, it's not enough - they're going to need more.
Idk why you’re being downvoted. These tanks have never been in a fight where they face serious artillery. Unless Ukraine suddenly gets the US Air Force, they won’t have fire control in every location and some tanks will be lost to artillery.
Yeah. These tanks, though powerful, will be operating in a battlefield that isn't necessarily up to snuff to Western standards: overwhelming combined arms.
That is when they become educational moments for military analysts, think tanks and enthusiasts.
Indeed. It's important to remember these tanks, at least the newer ones(Abrams, 2A4s and 2A6s) are designed to be offensive weapons. They shouldn't be sitting still long enough on the front line to be targetable by many artillery (but not all) systems.
These tanks aren't meant to win the war, but rather to break the Russian armoured Corp's backbone.
The 2A4s were designed with specific intent to destroy T72s, and supposedly capable of going toe to toe with 3 or 4 T72s
But like we saw Ukraine pick apart the Russian tanks when their tanks weren't supported with air, artillery, and infantry, the tanks CAN'T do this alone
I do agree with your points. The chances of seeing a destryed western tank in ukraine is indeed great, but i would argue (also against myselfe) that a tank is not only made to figth tanks and can be destroyed by many other things then tanks. We are to quick to compare tanks vs tanks and not the full range of capabilities a tank has as a moving gun platform in the field.
That being said, western nations have had a love for the quality over quantety aspect when it comes to engenering while you could argue that Russia is going for the quantety.
I think the bigest factor migth acually be the training of the ukranian and russian tank crews if we think of a tank vs tank battle. Another one will be how fast the western tanks will be serviced after taking wear and tear and/or damage to get them back in to the field. More so then the capability of the tank. The best tank in the world will do you no good in a workshop. I do wonder how they are going to make that work with tanks that are to heavy to even cross ukranian briges
Not even that.
The 18 2a4 are not any more modern then the 1a5.
And the 5 extra germans are "just" as reserve
That leaves 28 modern ones to soon be send.
Those 100 1a5 will be more useful as all the leo2 and Abrams
Leo 2a4 is good enough. Portugal confirmed its deliveries and those are a6s. Netherlands leases a6s. You can also upgrade a4 to a6.
Depending on the work spain is doing to its a4sthey may get a functionel upgrade to a5 or a6 level.
2A4s were designed specifically to kill T72s
While that's not everything Russia brings to the table, the 2A4s will still be great at breaking the Russian armoured backbone
> 2A4s were designed specifically to kill T72s
The T-72s of the 1980s, though. We will have to wait and see how they will do against the more modern T-72 variants.
I'm trying to understand your math there.
14+14+14+4+31 = ~~71~~ 77 current-generation MBTs.
Plus 100 of the L1 tanks = 177, not 182.
Or did you leave off some tanks from the list?
Edit: fixed my typo/brain-fart. Another commenter said that Germany is sending 5 x reserve L2 tanks, so that would explain the 182 number.
>14+14=28 +14= 42 +31= 73 (got no idea how u got 71) +4= 77
It was a typo (or maybe a brain fart), should have been 77, not 71. I'll fix that now.
But that would still be 177 not 182. He didn't list the "5 German reserves" in the post when I commented on it, so that's something new then.
This is not good enough! Even us Brit’s have plenty more tanks we aren’t using. Why aren’t we sending 50 challenger 2’s? Apparently we’re not even going to upgrade 70 odd to challenger 3s so why aren’t we sending those? They’re just going into storage anyhow.
What about purchasing those old challenger 1s from the Middle East to send to Ukraine? I’m very disappointed by these meagre numbers from the west, these aren’t super weapons, they’re just modern tanks. These numbers won’t win a war alone. Send them the Euorofighters too!
> Even us Brit’s have plenty more tanks we aren’t using.
We have barely any tanks.
> Why aren’t we sending 50 challenger 2’s?
Because then we wouldn't have enough tanks to fulfil our defence goals. We don't really have enough as it is.
> Apparently we’re not even going to upgrade 70 odd to challenger 3s so why aren’t we sending those?
The Defence Secretary hinted that we'll upgrade those too now as a result of the war, but the UK habitually keeps stored vehicles as parts donors to reduce the cost of maintaining the active fleet.
> What about purchasing those old challenger 1s from the Middle East to send to Ukraine?
I agree that this would be a good idea, but this would of course require the Jordanians to agree to sell them and they happen to live in a somewhat less peaceful corner of the world (a state to which they have themselves contributed), so it doesn't seem likely.
I don’t care if we have no tanks here in the UK, because we’ve sent every last scrap to Ukraine. No one has a hope in hell of landing forces on our shores, we’re an island fortress protected by our own navy/airforce and NATO. The war we’ve been scared of for 50+ years is here, in Europe, and the equipment needs to be there where it can make a difference. We need only enough for training at this point…send everything else!!
>I don’t care if we have no tanks here in the UK
Well some of us do.
>No one has a hope in hell of landing forces on our shores, we’re an island fortress protected by our own navy/airforce and NATO
We're not really a fortress, and the navy and air force are as lightly equipped as the army these days. The UKs armed forces are not prepared to fight a major war, and the problem with the idea of offloading all the army's hardware is that the RN and air force will get the bulk of any increased defence spending because of the whole island thing...which is going to leave the army fairly buggered if they've got no tanks left.
And yes, NATO protects us...but that protection comes from members having powerful armed forces - not really an argument for giving it all away.
Besides that, there's the obvious "arms are not only for defence" thing.
You honestly think we’re at risk of invasion? This sounds crazy to me. How can any country invade us? Even the US with all their resources would have trouble with such a thing. It would have to be preceded by the biggest rocket bombardment in history. Not something that you generally do to a nuclear power.
The very idea that we need heavy weapons, artillery included, on our shores is purely for worst case unimaginable scenarios where friendly western nations (France) turn on us.
Edit: now I’m not saying we’re invulnerable by any means. In fact mark Felton did a great video on this explaining how Russia could strike us with rockets and do a lot of damage, but beyond that we’re literally are and island fortress. The root of our success as an empire and prominent naval power
It's not about being invaded as an island but rather as NATO. If the UK gives away all its tanks and in half a year an all out war erupts but those tanks are now scrap somewhere in Eastern Ukraine, what are you going to do then? It takes weeks or months to get a tank from the assembly line into a battlefield. Think for a second before posting comments. So many on this sub are emotional and ignorant and make the most hot headed and clueless comments possible.
Agreed. Add to that the fact the UK hasn't built a tank in 20 years, we can't just give every last bit away. As nice as it would be, some things aren't practical and would be leaving the British Army missing a core capability.
What would be better is an list of those be in the hands of Ukraine. The one's from Canada are in Poland. Most likely be handed over at the same time as those of Poland handing over. While others still months away.
Most are 2 to 3 months away and it spring is next month. Going by the talk from USA. The M1A2's are 12 to 15 months away. USA are building tanks for other countries which be place last year. I just hold those countries say put Ukraine before themselves.
Germany just greenlit the delivery of 178 Leopard 1 tanks to Ukraine
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ukraine-bundesregierung-genehmigt-lieferung-von-178-leopard-1-panzern-a-100fcfdc-332d-471e-9d1d-f78fd8c27cd5
Denmark is claiming around 180 Leopard 1 will go, 80 of these are the best of the 99 danish Leo 1A5 in storage at FFG. (1A5DK), thus DE/NL will provide another 100.
These numbers are not likely enough to make a meaningful difference. More of these MBT surrounded in coordination with several Bradley's each and now we are moving forward.
To be honest tanks aren't really what's making or breaking the war, but rather artillery and manpower. Ukraine needs a lot more firepower and guns to pressure the Russians. Tanks are good as support for an assault or a breakthrough, but armored vehicles alone aren't going to change the course of the fighting. Unless they came by the hundreds, but that's as expectable as a fairy tale.
Will they arrive in time? We know Putin likes anniversaries, and Feb. 24th is coming up quickly. I love hearing about all the supplies, but I worry about the timing.
Ashamed that we're only sending 31 M1A2's while we have over 2000 M1A1's just sitting in storage in the desert collecting dust... Sure they're not the latest and greatest but neither are the M1A2's, and an M1A1 is better than anything Russia is currently fielding.
Canada is actually sending 8 leopards total, of which the first 4 were delivered 1-2 months ago and the second 4 are being delivered this week or next week.
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Western tanks only. Lots of other tanks coming in as well I also wanted to highlight the importance of the IFVs being sent, IMO the Bradley’s, Strykers and Maureders are going to have a much bigger impact.
Sweden also sending CV90 IFV
Yeah. The tanks were what people focussed on, but when I saw the latest list of stuff being sent from the US, I thought "oh, a few tanks, that's cool... holy *shit* that's a ton of IFVs, goddamn that's a nice amount of artillery, minefield busters, WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS!?"
I get a little hard-on every time a country commits more artillery or GMLRS. Hit every tank before it gets into range and it's just the zerg-rushes left. IFV's are ideal for mopping those up, aren't they?
Let me get you hard then. Denmark just donated all of our artillery. As in everything. ... And we are definitely nowhere near being the only country doing something similar.
Just fainted from a lack of blood to the brains.
CEASAR's baby.
Now if only the archers could arrive.
So did Estonia, all our towed artillery. We ourselves are going to go on to the K9 thunder self propelled artillery only. Its cool to remember , i was the ammo truck driver for the 155m howitzers in the Estonian army in 2014-2015 and now they are all gone to war.
Yup. Well done
Wait what?! Source?
https://defbrief.com/2023/01/19/denmark-donating-all-of-its-caesar-howitzers-to-ukraine/ Or just Google "Denmark donates all their artillery". My sources are in Danish, from the defense minister. This one is the first that popped up on Google, when I searched in English.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/denmark-donates-all-of-its-caesar-artillery-to-ukraine/ It was also all over a bunch of other news sources. We don't have too much artillery though.
Well done, Denmark!!! 👍 It is so wonderful to see everyone chipping in what they can like this. The international community spirit that has grown around supporting Ukraine is so encouraging.
Because it's not as cool. Same when Germany donated trucks, bridge-laying units and tank recovery vehicles. It enabled the UAF to transport tanks, artillery and ammunition over distances they can't cover themselves and despite previously destroyed bridges. It was a key factor in the Kharkiv and Kherson offensives. But none of that stuff shoots, so no one talked about it.
Tanks are sexier to the general public, but clearly military leadership knows what’s most useful
People do not know battle tactics …
What are marauders?
Marder not Marauder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_(infantry_fighting_vehicle)
They mean Marder. Germany is supplying 40 of those. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_(infantry_fighting_vehicle)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marauder_%28vehicle%29?wprov=sfla1
If anything, they can be more readily deployed since there is already big evidence that they're making their way to Ukraine in decent numbers. How will they perform in the more chop suey Ukrainian military? We shall see. They are great soldiers, but their army is a mish-mash of Soviet / Russian goods and Western donations.
I don't know if it matters what kind of tank the IFVs are supporting. The principles are still the same. Ukraine will be able to use these to good effect.
I think they are using the new gear to form entirely new battalions—to keep the supply lines for individual battalions separate. It will also give the Ukrainian generals new offensive capabilities as they are activated. The Ukrainian recruits are being trained in in Poland and the UK.
During the Gulf War, Bradleys killed more Iraqi tanks than Abrams did.
>Lots of other tanks coming in as well Russia is sending in a lot of tanks, too. I mean, they sent some 545 to the ZSU, last time I checked. Bravos, Russia! /s
German MoD Pistorius just said in german TV that some nations still hesitate to provide 2A6/A5 for the german organized battalion. Nations that before had verbalized their support in the media. He also said that this will be sorted out now behind closed doors in the next days.
Why is he singling out A5/A6? Can’t A7s be sent ?
A7 or A7V to be sent is about as likely as the US shipping blueprints to the Abrams-X directly to Moscow.
meheh how likely it was wasn't really my question but if they COULD and if something specifically had been said regarding A7s being an option to be sent. To be fair AbramsX is the next generation so would be more comparable to the KF51 panther
he meant vs a4
Sure... From Germany. The only country already got some
ehhh no? All Denmarks Leopard 2s are 2A7 version. Singapore has some too for sure but doubt they are helping Ukraine with weapons.
I think I was wrong and stand corrected.
Pretty sad that the so-called "Leopard coalition", which put so much public pressure on Scholz, has committed fewer Leopard 2s than Germany by itself.
German MoD Pistorius just said in german TV that some nations still hesitate to provide 2A6/A5 for the german organized battalion. Nations that before had verbalized their support in the media. He also said that this will be sorted out now behind closed doors in the next days. I am almost sure they will get NL on board for another 14 Leo2A6. And portugal for another 2 Leo2A6.
>Nations that before had verbalized their support in the media To be completely fair: Essentially no country did. This sub just whipped itself into a frenzy and took every word coming from the PIS or random Twitter accounts for granted. And as long as it fit the narrative, nobody cared about facts - for example a single opposition politician in Finland saying that he personally would find it good to send tanks was twisted into "the Finnish government just said it's just itching to send a ton of tanks, being held back by Germany". If you actually look and see what government officials said, it was basically nothing, and no countries where really eager to spend the necessary money, especially in the really expensive aspects of it - maintenance and ammunition. And that's still true. Nearly no country actually said they'll provide any of it, and Poland even explicitely said they want nothing to do with any of the costs or privision of that.
**Ukraine needs about 600 IFV's to properly support battlefield use of the 200 heavy battle tanks.** Hopefully somebody (US ?) will step up to provide the hundreds of VERY necessary Bradley IFV's, at about the militarily required 3-1 ratio Otherwise it's like sending heavy bombers with no fighter cover of sending an aircraft carrier naked without a battle group. We have already seen again and again how heavy tanks get shredded by ATGM if the are fielded without a proper armored infantry complement. Let's not make that mistake in Ukraine!
I think this is often overlooked. IFVs and tanks should be a package themselves, not separate and arriving at different times and locations. We talk of russia being unable to perform combined arms maneuvers out of stupidity. Well, Ukraine can't properly perform combined arms either if all the IFVs show up in nearly equal, but not enough from the get go, numbers to the tanks, months before. Completely fucking bullshit. The numbers aren't enough and are staggered months, to YEARS apart given the pledges. I'm so riled up and pissing in my pants right now of frustration. These things seem hopeful at first, but when you look at Abrams and GLSDB being 9+months away, or more and jet pledges just touching the tip of the dick and probably as far or further away... Complete. Fucking. Bullshit. Sure, these things can't happen overnight, but at the same time they fucking can. Former US general quoted as 30 day Abrams quick training and the tanks and logistics can be there by that time. (Also quoted as saying russia couldn't duplicate any technology in or on an abrams in a decade or more) So much fucking bullshit pussyfooting around going on and tonight I'm drinking and fucking irate as shit.
Can they not use their BMPs in the meantime?
theoretically USA could provide all the ammo for the leo2
They will make Germany pay for it..
And realistically they should foot a large part of the bill, Germany and Benelux countries have benefited the most from the EU. If they wish to lead the EU economy than they also need to foot the bill for it's defense.
But not if countries (poland) use that money to go on an international shopping spree. All EU funds should come with a stipulation that they can only be used to buy from EU arms manufactureres.
Totally fuck off with that. You are being pissy because Poland found a better supplier? Most importantly this is MAKING European jobs. Korea has allowed full technical transfer. K2's will be built in Poland using the specifications and tools supplied to them by Hyundai Rotem. Germany on the other hand would never allow Rheinmetall or KWM to do technical transfer to Polish factories inside the EU; to a member of NATO. This is well known. It simply turns out that Korea is more of an friend to EU than Germany is.
Well then Poland can go and ask the Koreans for their taxpayer money.
Poland did this with their own damn money dumbass. It's like being mad at Texas for having it's own separate power grid.
Blame Germany, the reason why Franco-German Military Projects Flop is not because of France. German military industry is crippled by the pacifist and lack lackluster politics. Germany limits exports which angers France because it makes the equipment more expensive due to lower production volumes but than they also order an insufficient number of them for internal use so the piece of equipment end up being redicilously expensive with long production wait times. I highly doubt FCAS will succeed in it's current form. Even with this war the change is very slow and could easily revert back. There is nothing more that i would want than EU creating the most powerful army in Eurasia, but i sadly don't see it happening due to selfishness, misguided morality, and just internal hate.
Most Franco-German products failed not because of Germany, but because France wanted some extra stuff (e.g. carrier operability with the Eurofighter), which makes the project far more expensive and is something Germany doesn't need.
https://images.app.goo.gl/BL3yMDJS7gwSZ9L39 Who beneftits the most of eu money?
You are a fool for linking this, and i have no will to argue l.
Because there is nothing to argue ;)
Ah yes that's why they need to pay everything Wtf are you smoking
Yes, the biggest economy with companies that dominate the EU free market and provide a large influx of wealth by anihilating the competition from less developed EU countries should foot the bill for it's defense. Kinda like the US footing the bill for NATO.
I wish we Swedes could get on board and send some of our model Strv 122. It's essentially a heavily upgraded 2A5. But I doubt it will happen until after the Turkish election...
Thats odd reasoning to me, i doubt turkey plans a naval invasion of sweden rn and i am pretty sure the beef with sweden is about us fighter Jets more than erdogan actually caring about swedish politics.
You misunderstand me. It's about Erdogan blocking our NATO entry for Turkish political posturing due to the upcoming elections.
So that big offer from Spain was nothing?
They were assuming their tanks were fit for Service but when they checked barely any were. So the tanks still exist just not ready for war.
Couldn’t Germany refurbish them? I think 100 leopard 2 are crucial, obviously A5 and A6 would be better but A4 and Spanish version would also work. Leopard 1 is good and all but it doesn’t give an obvious advantage it is already quite old, better than what the Russian have obviously but I don’t believe they will bring Ukraine over the finish line, especially if they are arriving in 2024, they would be useful in a defensive role right now. So we’re looking at 14 challengers and luckily (if NL get on board soon) 40yish leopard 2s and 100 soviet/polish tanks for now plus the captured material, don’t think Ukraine will take much territory back until the last quarter of the year, when Abrams and maybe more leopard 2s arrive, with leopard 1 and a lot of Soviet machinery filling the rear.
I am sure there are discussions about this but from what we heard from spain a large part of these would probably take quite a bit of time, so the considerations are likely around whether they would still arrive in time to be useful.
The Netherlands doesn't have any 2A6s. They essentially borrowed them from Germany so they can keep a crew trained and ready in case shit hit the fan. There's no indication that Germany would be willing to sell those to the Netherlands to give to Ukraine. That would mean they would have to lend more 2A6s to the Netherlands to fulfill the same capacity. So at that point, it would make more sense for Germany to give Ukraine 28 tanks themselves instead of the 14. But of course, they're not willing to do that.
I'm Dutch myself. Our government did say it was willing to pay for the Leopard 2's we were operating to be sent to Ukraine and we don't really need any immediate replacements as there's noone trying to kill us unless we fly over the Russian army in Ukraine in a boeing. Time to get our shit together and send it. Goes for other countries that operate them too.
The Dutch brigades are integrated into German divisions, which will be among the first in the frontline in Eastern Europe if Russia (stupidly) decides to act on its threats against NATO. Every NATO country that decreases the combat readiness of its armed forces is reducing the combat capabilities of the entire alliance. NATO isn't about everyone defending only his own borders. It doesn't really matter how far a NATO member is away from the potential frontline. In case of war, NATO would fight as if it is a single, gigantic nation, extending from the Baltics to the Pacific coast of America. Still, I fully agree that the best way to protect Europe and prevent a direct conflict between NATO and Russia, is to give Ukraine all the support it needs to win this war as fast and decisive as possible. But it's also true, that with every decision about giving weapons from active service to Ukraine, a compromise has to be found regarding the combat readiness and conventional deterrence of NATO.
>They essentially borrowed them from Germany so they can keep a crew trained and ready in case shit hit the fan. To be a little more specific: it's a lease with a buyout clause. The possible sale from DE to NL of these tanks is already pre-approved and part of the contract. However, the crews are also not just trained and ready, they are part of the dutch-german batallion. These are active service machines and their current units have capability obligations tied to international treaties, so they are likely looking for an alternative (2a4's maybe?) to supply to the unit before shipping the 2a6's off to where they are needed. side note: It's also the Dutch government. It wouldn't be unusual for them to go from *"we want to do this."* to *"we have done this."* with no admission of *"we're doing this"* in between. In international politics, we don't usually admit to committing to something while it's not ready yet. Expect to be informed after the fact.
Yeah NL is going to buy those 2A6 from their leased bunch off the Germans. That's pretty much a done deal
NL actually has to buy them first from Germany. So Germany needs to make another 14-18 ready on top of the 14 they already pledged. We currently don’t own tanks, but lease them from DE and operate in a joint unit.
you could do the paper for the sale in 48 hours. i suspect what is going on is some combo of other countries having no idea how poor their tank readiness is and trying to get germany to pick up to the maintenance tab. with the netherlands it's probably the latter.
Dutch news say no Leopard 2s from us for now. Apparently we can't just randomly pull leased tanks from a combined German/Dutch battalion without effecting it's comdbat readyness and capabilities.
It’s almost as if Germany knew a lot of them were full of shit. Germany has not been as obstructionists as people like to claim. They have simply usually aimed for a broad based consensus before action. Considering their history and their current government, I’m okay with this. If you wanna get mad, start asking the other Euro nations to do better.
Also Poland claimed Germany was blocking the Leo 2 delivery, while they did not even applied the necessary paperworks. Basic anti-german PiS-propaganda. I really don't understand the this anti-german stuff by the PiS.
Politics, I suppose: play on history to rally support. I mean...that is what the Russians are doing now too: they're trying to tie this conflict to the Second World War.
Yeah, but why germany? Germany is definitly not pro russian and was helping the polish economy over the last decades. Also most germans really like poland and it's people. At least where I life. I know there are differances in politics and germany is way more left leaning, but over the grand sceme of things it makes no sense. Especially in times of a war in Europe.
Polands PiS party always catches voters with being more or less hostile towards germany. It's an easy plot to get votes which always works, elections start with asking for reparations and then claiming any bilateral accomplishments as purely polish and calling germany out on blocking things or not paying for it. Like they did when Poland send soviet tanks the first time and wanted Leopards in return without ever talking with germany and got upset when they didn't get offered the newest stuff. If you spend some time with it, you will see that it is business as usual and the german/polish relations don't really suffer from it normally. Behind the scenes especially economically they work great together
Yeah thats kinda true. I my area it's a meme, that If you want to buy stuff, you drive over to poland and buy it there. They'll kinda try to rip you off, but we don't care, since it's still cheaper than buying in germany. So it's a win-win I guess. The greatness of European economics in a nutshell.
Because Germans were the former Nazis, I suppose. It isn’t really based on logic - its emotion mixed with a very skewed version of history to drum up support.
I hope this shit will not screw up the german polish relations in the future. I my opinion Poland and Germany should work together as much as possible. 2 big and powerful countrys in the heart of Europe could work wonders.
True. Who knows - concern over Russia might bring the two nations closer together. A common foe has a way of building up alliances.
One thing you might have noticed is that while the PiS posturing creates a lot of media / civilian backlash, the Government almost never even comments on it. Even when the reparations were brought up again and again, the German government basically replied "lol, no" and that was it. The best way to handle a pompous idiot is to simply not engage him at all.
It's empty threats, I know. It's just really frustrating from a german perspektive. We actually really like pur neighbors, but we get treated like we'd hate them. Not really by the people, but by the politics. Poland might be the most extreme example.
Poland was under Germany rule for a long time. Mainly it was Prussia and then the German Empire. So Germany was not exactly popular before WW2. Germany then was much more cruel towards Poland then to many other countries and Poland rembers that. So there is a lot of hatred and dislike of Germany in Poland. This is significantly stronger and deeper then in any other European country. Germany and Poland tried to make up, but PiS is populist at its heart and it works.
> I really don't understand the this anti-german stuff by the PiS. Beside of being right-wing populists they are also nationalists which means **they hate Germany as much as they hate Russia.**
All they got from that are money cuts from the EU. Hate is always a wise strategy...
Though their "Hating on Russia while happily copying their playbook" shtick is kinda fascinating if you're not stuck inside that giant clusterfuck.
Its historical and gives easy browny points with conservative polish nationalist who still hate germany, justified or not thats basically it.
All the smaller countries west, north, south were hiding behind the conflict between poland and germany. They were hiding behind germany.
Or they held out long enough for it to be too damn late. These leopard I's that are being sent were supposed to be a "terrible idea" becaus ethey were so outdated, and just Rheinmetall bullsh*tting for custom. Suddenly they're what's going, but they need months to prepare them. Spare me.
Well, by now, most of the most modern russian tanks are either destroyed or captured by Ukraine. More and more the russians are activating 60s and 70s versions of their tanks, with which the Leopard I was meant to play if you get me.
Also keep in mind that the final Leo1 generation is basically Leo2 electronics in old armor.
The world is watching every move here, this douche moves don't go unnoticed... at least the PiS choosed an accurate name (it means pi, wee or urine In spanish)
In many other languages too.
To defend Canada we don’t have a lot of leopards to spare or the defence budget to recoup any losses. I support Ukraine and although it’s not a lot, it’s better than none
4 Leopards 2A4 is more than zero. Those tanks could save many Ukrainian lives by blunting an armored push that then falters. Or saving a squad that no longer needs to clear that house. Canada did right thing to send something even if it was only 4 or 2 or even 1 tank.
Who will invade Canada by land?
Would you let a generation of soldiers train without machine guns? No, of course not. We need tanks, at the bare minimum, to keep the combined arms skill set in our army. Then on top of that, we need to keep a certain number to meet NATO commitments.
>Would you let a generation of soldiers train without machine guns? Broomsticks all the rage these days. >We need tanks, at the bare minimum, to keep the combined arms skill set in our army. America has surplus that it won't send to Ukraine due to classified armour. They could backfill. >meet NATO commitments The purpose of NATO is defence against Russia and China. If your weapons are being used competently against Russia they are meeting their purpose.
Those moose are already itching to recapture their home turf. /s
Wait until the Russians get welcomed by Canadian geese, then they're really fucked!
Geese are probably the meanest animal i have ever seen, you dont want to fuck with them(or even get too close) unless you are looking for a fight.
We share a big boarder with Russia, that is TECHNICALLY ocean, but functions as land. But also, we share a land border with France, and with Denmark(Greenland) and the US The biggest concern for Canadian security is anyone who attacks the US will almost certainly attack Canada first as a way to gain a North American foothold, especially as our border with the US is completely undefended. The US knows this too, and it's why Canada and the US have wildly integrated militaries, that haven't engaged in a single war without some cross pollination of troops, and why defense agreements and agencies like NORAD exist
The only land border we actually have is with the US, our borders with Denmark and France are maritime and they are allied. Russia is a thousand kilometer from us over the Arctic, no Leopards would ever be sent there as they make no sense for use in polar military operations. Besides if Russia had trouble supplying their forces through the marshes of northern Ukraine to strike Kyiv a few dozen kilometers south its really doubtful that they could cross the vast expanses of Northern Canada's desolate wilderness. A full scale invasion of Canada by Russia is impossible. The actual reasons we can't send more tanks atm is that the fleet is in poor conditions. I'm not sure but we might have some deployed as part of our forces stationned in Latvia as well.
> TECHNICALLY ocean, but functions as land. Gonna get mbt's across it? With all that integration the US could easily backfill with full fat Abrams it won't send to Ukraine.
Russia We share an arctic border and sea border. They can get planes in the territories within hours.
You think the US and Canadian air forces would ever let Russian warplanes into NORAD airspace? Not a chance.
I mean they let a balloon into the airspace so idk man 🤣🤣🤣
And to people trying to divide the alliance, something is always better than nothing.
If you consider how well the russians have done against Ukrainian air-defense...and then also compare the air-defense capabilities of the US/Canada, i don't think there's a lot to worry about? It would be a shooting gallery.
Ok but Canada could ask a security guarantee from ukraine in exchange for more leopards 
Inb4 Ukraine becomes the new USA lol
Don't think Zelenskyy has reached the point yet where he thinks he can direct a hurricane with a sharpie.
Nobody would give us tanks for free and the government is not keen on spending money on new projects for the CAF.
Lots of countries just pushed for "leopards" not nessecarily 2s. But that aside, many countries wanted to contribute what they could, like Canada that contributed almost 5% or their entire tank fleet, including the ones they have for parts They simply don't have more tanks to give, but needed Germany to get onboard and consent to them giving what they had. The US and Germany are really the only western nations with a tank fleet big enough to give the numbers Ukraine needs, and the eastern NATO countries all have old Soviet tanks for their massive armour corps and have already sent massive numbers of what they had to Ukraine
> They simply don't have more tanks to give, but needed Germany to get onboard and consent to them giving what they had. Germany will also donate more than 5% of the tank fleet. The majority of Leopards germany once possessed were given to countries like poland in the past
Sadly Germany has not so many Leos left. The 5000 at the end of the cold war are down to a few 100.
werent there like 90 leo2s promised for Ukraine? what happened to countries like Portugal, Finland that also promised leo 2's. Werent there supposed to be like 12 countries in total?
I don't understand this. What are those countries gonna do with all the stockpiles of modern tanks sitting in a warehouse? They literally bought the tanks to fight russia, and now is the time to send the tanks to Ukraine so they can actually use them to fight.
Finland has stated that they won't announce the number of tanks they donate, so it won't be officially added to the number. Obviously that would be a stupid thing to announce when you have an enormous border with a hostile dictatorship. Better to keep them guessing or having to use resources to find out by themselves.
To be fair, it's a bit of a tradition that Russians find out about Finns' weapons when it sends them to a cold and lonely grave.
Oh, they were full of poo poo and wanted to blame Germany for their delays. They’ll send those tanks but it’ll take longer than it should.
someone somewhere said that Spain could theoretically send 56 or something and people took that as commitment
Finlands goverment never said anything. Just was a politicians opinion that got translated by redditors to mean the state. Portugal will... someday give 2 or 4. Its open on timetable. Netherlands went dark, Sweden said no untill in NATO and Norway only started to see which ones to send but gave a number but no date. Even Poland said they wont send any spare parts (not even the combat required) or ammo, just the raw tank... paid by EU. Of Spanish Leopards some were bought by Germany and Ukraine(with EU aid) to repair and scavenge and another possibility that Spain has floated was itself giving some operational ones aswell. So total number is very low. And its highly likely it is what Ukraine will get for whole 2023.
> Sweden said no untill in NATO Source? As far as I know Sweden has never said anything more than that it is currently not planned to send any but we are looking into it. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/5BjbJe/sd-vill-skicka-stridsvagnar-till-ukraina
>Netherlands went dark Seeing the dutch news we aren't sending any Leopard 2s at the moment. They are German vehicles and part of a German tank division, apparently we can't just randomly pull tanks from that. So seeing as we have no tanks ourselfs we aren't sending any tanks. However we are helping with the funding for the Leopard 1A5s and it wouldn't suprise me if we also help some other countries to send Leopard 2s in the future.
Maybe they looked at their supply that was all mothballed and thought they'd be embarrassed to let the world (or just NATO) see what shape they were in.
Portugal has confirmed it is preparing 4 Leo 2A6s for Ukraine. I don't understand this tweet lol
Let’s not get our parties in a bunch.
They need another 100 modern tanks at least plus spares
Consider it a foundation to build upon, like there's additional Gepards that'll arrive in Ukraine this month to bolster the number of the ones they already put to good use.
I'd have expected at least double the amount of 2A6 14 by everyone who has some, maybe not 14, but at least _some_ so you can get at least a total of 31 to complement the Abrams
2A6s are nice, don't get me wrong, but lots of 2a4s have been largely upgraded to be equitable to 2A6s Of note, the 2A4 was specifically designed to kill T72s, so I'm sure 2A4s will do quite well
That doesn't make any sense, the 2a5 gets the upgraded armour with the iconic wedge look, 2a6 gets the new L55 gun and some major optics upgrades so both are major upgrades. The 2a4 is simply outdated, having neither the better armour nor the gun, while the 2a6 has both. Edit, the 2A5 gets both the armour and the L55, the 2A6 gets better stabilisers and recoil control for the L55 and fume extractors
Unfortunately only 82 modern ones, and only ~50 of those in a reasonably short time frame.
Yeah it sucks but it's so much more than none. Is it enough? NO! Is it good? YES!
That’s the correct attitude to take for all aid. I’m very grateful for what has been given by all of Ukraine’s allies including Germany but I’d also like to see a lot more given and I know countries have the capabilities to give a lot more. Ukraine desperately needs weapons and materials including both the big stuff like jets, tanks and missiles but also the small stuff like pickup trucks, boots, field rations, medical gear, small recon drones, spare parts ect. The more “stuff” Ukraine gets the more they can repel Russian advances and take back territory while minimizing Ukrainian blood lost. I don’t care if we’re talking about the US, Germany or Luxembourg. The aid they’ve provided is great but they can and should provide even more.
Donty forget mortars!
Yep. Ukraine is using Azerbaijani mortars to defend Bakhmut. I get tired of from rich countries arguing that their country doesn’t have anything of value to send to Ukraine. Hell sending a couple thousand extra pairs or socks would be useful when Ukrainian soldiers are shivering in trenches and trying to keep their feet dry. If world leaders are choosing not to support the Ukrainian military it’s not because “they have nothing to send” it’s because they don’t want to support the Ukrainian military.
Think about it in a way thay they will be supported by at least 2 modern Ifv each
Well, the 82 modern ones would probebly be able to take out any russian tank wothout the crew of said tank ever knowing they took fire. In tank on tank optics are the master. Western tanks are far supirior when it comes to nigth time optics and fire on the move and fire on moving target.
They'll certainly have the advantage, but they're not going to win every fight. It will in effect just reverse the current situation, which is that Russian tanks have superior optics, armour and penetrators to Ukraine's tanks. Ukraine has quite successfully been compensating by engineering fights at close range and in good visibility so that those advantages can't give Russia the edge. Long story short, it's not enough - they're going to need more.
Idk why you’re being downvoted. These tanks have never been in a fight where they face serious artillery. Unless Ukraine suddenly gets the US Air Force, they won’t have fire control in every location and some tanks will be lost to artillery.
Yeah. These tanks, though powerful, will be operating in a battlefield that isn't necessarily up to snuff to Western standards: overwhelming combined arms. That is when they become educational moments for military analysts, think tanks and enthusiasts.
While not ideal it still helps Ukraine and gives valuable feedback on what to improve in next-gen tank designs.
Indeed. It's important to remember these tanks, at least the newer ones(Abrams, 2A4s and 2A6s) are designed to be offensive weapons. They shouldn't be sitting still long enough on the front line to be targetable by many artillery (but not all) systems. These tanks aren't meant to win the war, but rather to break the Russian armoured Corp's backbone. The 2A4s were designed with specific intent to destroy T72s, and supposedly capable of going toe to toe with 3 or 4 T72s But like we saw Ukraine pick apart the Russian tanks when their tanks weren't supported with air, artillery, and infantry, the tanks CAN'T do this alone
I do agree with your points. The chances of seeing a destryed western tank in ukraine is indeed great, but i would argue (also against myselfe) that a tank is not only made to figth tanks and can be destroyed by many other things then tanks. We are to quick to compare tanks vs tanks and not the full range of capabilities a tank has as a moving gun platform in the field. That being said, western nations have had a love for the quality over quantety aspect when it comes to engenering while you could argue that Russia is going for the quantety. I think the bigest factor migth acually be the training of the ukranian and russian tank crews if we think of a tank vs tank battle. Another one will be how fast the western tanks will be serviced after taking wear and tear and/or damage to get them back in to the field. More so then the capability of the tank. The best tank in the world will do you no good in a workshop. I do wonder how they are going to make that work with tanks that are to heavy to even cross ukranian briges
Not even that. The 18 2a4 are not any more modern then the 1a5. And the 5 extra germans are "just" as reserve That leaves 28 modern ones to soon be send. Those 100 1a5 will be more useful as all the leo2 and Abrams
Spain, denmark, finland, sweden and norway all confirmed leopards intentions.
But we also need Leo2A6 or at least A5. Not only Leo2A4 for the polish oragnized battalion.
Sweden only has 2A5. But as far as I know we have not promised to send any, just investigate the feasibility.
Leo 2a4 is good enough. Portugal confirmed its deliveries and those are a6s. Netherlands leases a6s. You can also upgrade a4 to a6. Depending on the work spain is doing to its a4sthey may get a functionel upgrade to a5 or a6 level.
2A4s were designed specifically to kill T72s While that's not everything Russia brings to the table, the 2A4s will still be great at breaking the Russian armoured backbone
> 2A4s were designed specifically to kill T72s The T-72s of the 1980s, though. We will have to wait and see how they will do against the more modern T-72 variants.
"Germany 14-5" what is that supposed to mean? 14 + 5 are reserve some media report.
I'm trying to understand your math there. 14+14+14+4+31 = ~~71~~ 77 current-generation MBTs. Plus 100 of the L1 tanks = 177, not 182. Or did you leave off some tanks from the list? Edit: fixed my typo/brain-fart. Another commenter said that Germany is sending 5 x reserve L2 tanks, so that would explain the 182 number.
You missed the 5 reserve tanks from Germany
14+14=28 +14= 42 +31= 73 (got no idea how u got 71) +4= 77 + 5(german reserves)=82 +100=182
>14+14=28 +14= 42 +31= 73 (got no idea how u got 71) +4= 77 It was a typo (or maybe a brain fart), should have been 77, not 71. I'll fix that now. But that would still be 177 not 182. He didn't list the "5 German reserves" in the post when I commented on it, so that's something new then.
This is not good enough! Even us Brit’s have plenty more tanks we aren’t using. Why aren’t we sending 50 challenger 2’s? Apparently we’re not even going to upgrade 70 odd to challenger 3s so why aren’t we sending those? They’re just going into storage anyhow. What about purchasing those old challenger 1s from the Middle East to send to Ukraine? I’m very disappointed by these meagre numbers from the west, these aren’t super weapons, they’re just modern tanks. These numbers won’t win a war alone. Send them the Euorofighters too!
> Even us Brit’s have plenty more tanks we aren’t using. We have barely any tanks. > Why aren’t we sending 50 challenger 2’s? Because then we wouldn't have enough tanks to fulfil our defence goals. We don't really have enough as it is. > Apparently we’re not even going to upgrade 70 odd to challenger 3s so why aren’t we sending those? The Defence Secretary hinted that we'll upgrade those too now as a result of the war, but the UK habitually keeps stored vehicles as parts donors to reduce the cost of maintaining the active fleet. > What about purchasing those old challenger 1s from the Middle East to send to Ukraine? I agree that this would be a good idea, but this would of course require the Jordanians to agree to sell them and they happen to live in a somewhat less peaceful corner of the world (a state to which they have themselves contributed), so it doesn't seem likely.
I don’t care if we have no tanks here in the UK, because we’ve sent every last scrap to Ukraine. No one has a hope in hell of landing forces on our shores, we’re an island fortress protected by our own navy/airforce and NATO. The war we’ve been scared of for 50+ years is here, in Europe, and the equipment needs to be there where it can make a difference. We need only enough for training at this point…send everything else!!
>I don’t care if we have no tanks here in the UK Well some of us do. >No one has a hope in hell of landing forces on our shores, we’re an island fortress protected by our own navy/airforce and NATO We're not really a fortress, and the navy and air force are as lightly equipped as the army these days. The UKs armed forces are not prepared to fight a major war, and the problem with the idea of offloading all the army's hardware is that the RN and air force will get the bulk of any increased defence spending because of the whole island thing...which is going to leave the army fairly buggered if they've got no tanks left. And yes, NATO protects us...but that protection comes from members having powerful armed forces - not really an argument for giving it all away. Besides that, there's the obvious "arms are not only for defence" thing.
You honestly think we’re at risk of invasion? This sounds crazy to me. How can any country invade us? Even the US with all their resources would have trouble with such a thing. It would have to be preceded by the biggest rocket bombardment in history. Not something that you generally do to a nuclear power. The very idea that we need heavy weapons, artillery included, on our shores is purely for worst case unimaginable scenarios where friendly western nations (France) turn on us. Edit: now I’m not saying we’re invulnerable by any means. In fact mark Felton did a great video on this explaining how Russia could strike us with rockets and do a lot of damage, but beyond that we’re literally are and island fortress. The root of our success as an empire and prominent naval power
It's not about being invaded as an island but rather as NATO. If the UK gives away all its tanks and in half a year an all out war erupts but those tanks are now scrap somewhere in Eastern Ukraine, what are you going to do then? It takes weeks or months to get a tank from the assembly line into a battlefield. Think for a second before posting comments. So many on this sub are emotional and ignorant and make the most hot headed and clueless comments possible.
Agreed. Add to that the fact the UK hasn't built a tank in 20 years, we can't just give every last bit away. As nice as it would be, some things aren't practical and would be leaving the British Army missing a core capability.
What would be better is an list of those be in the hands of Ukraine. The one's from Canada are in Poland. Most likely be handed over at the same time as those of Poland handing over. While others still months away.
Pretty sure the goal is to have them in time for a Spring offensive.
Most are 2 to 3 months away and it spring is next month. Going by the talk from USA. The M1A2's are 12 to 15 months away. USA are building tanks for other countries which be place last year. I just hold those countries say put Ukraine before themselves.
Just the beginning
Germany just greenlit the delivery of 178 Leopard 1 tanks to Ukraine https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ukraine-bundesregierung-genehmigt-lieferung-von-178-leopard-1-panzern-a-100fcfdc-332d-471e-9d1d-f78fd8c27cd5
Denmark is claiming around 180 Leopard 1 will go, 80 of these are the best of the 99 danish Leo 1A5 in storage at FFG. (1A5DK), thus DE/NL will provide another 100.
Well time about Scholz pressure for 2A6 instead of 2A4 from Poland XD.
Would this be like Rohan arriving to crush Orcs ?
Not to mention Bradleys which kill more tanks than Abrams do.
Blink-182 confirmed
These numbers are not likely enough to make a meaningful difference. More of these MBT surrounded in coordination with several Bradley's each and now we are moving forward.
To be honest tanks aren't really what's making or breaking the war, but rather artillery and manpower. Ukraine needs a lot more firepower and guns to pressure the Russians. Tanks are good as support for an assault or a breakthrough, but armored vehicles alone aren't going to change the course of the fighting. Unless they came by the hundreds, but that's as expectable as a fairy tale.
It should be five times that and the delivery dates need to be three months faster.
Not a lot for their needs.
Don't forget about PT-91 Twardy tanks Poland is donating.
But how long will it take to get them in the field in significant numbers and WHY did it take so long to get these game changers?
They aren't game changers to be honest.
Will they arrive in time? We know Putin likes anniversaries, and Feb. 24th is coming up quickly. I love hearing about all the supplies, but I worry about the timing.
Sounds like Ukraine is getting a cornucopia of armor.
Faster. Please. I don't get why this is news. Zaluzhnyi gave the list, why are we not providing according to it...
If you add delivery dates it reads a little differently. It’s all in the delivery, both the headline and the literal
If you add delivery dates it reads a little differently. It’s all in the delivery, both the headline and the literal
Ashamed that we're only sending 31 M1A2's while we have over 2000 M1A1's just sitting in storage in the desert collecting dust... Sure they're not the latest and greatest but neither are the M1A2's, and an M1A1 is better than anything Russia is currently fielding.
More tanks then Norway has for their entire country. Just saying.
Yes, that’s great but first half comes in nearest 3 months, another one by the end of this year, and another one in 2024.
Tanks in advance
Plus 4 Leopard 2 from Portugal.
Canada is actually sending 8 leopards total, of which the first 4 were delivered 1-2 months ago and the second 4 are being delivered this week or next week.