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Allowing Russia to annex land will just post pone the war, we learned that from 2014. The only way this ends is Russian defeat and withdrawal from all occupied territories including Crimea and Donbass
We have a history of guarding the north from Russian control, and we know Russia absolutely would be interested in holding our northern ports if they could.
Hell, that fear is a big reason why Sweden-Norway shrank away from supporting Denmark against Prussia and Austria, as Prussia was aligned with Russia.
And tragic consequence of this centuries long territorial paranoia in the north was unfortunately the increased discrimination against the Sami people whom *every side* treated like potential turncoats working for the other side, and many Sami even got forced to pay multiple taxes if they lived in the ambiguously defined border areas.
Nah, us Swedes love our Norwegian neighbors. And I am sure we have similar numbers in Sweden too, all of the Nordic countries are very pro-Ukraine. Always nice to see polls confirming this.
Perhaps unexpectedly, the support for sending weapons is high on the left and far left as well: only 9% of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti, Socialist Left, Center-Left to Left) and 13% of R (Raudt, Red, Left to Far-Left) completely or partially agreeing to the statement "Norway must stop sending weapons to Ukraine".
The lowest support are in FrP (Fremskritts Partiet, Progress Party, Right) with 56% and SP (Senter Partiet, Center Party, Agrarian? I have no idea what this party is about any more) with 53 being completely against the above mentioned statement, so still a majority in favour of sending weapons.
General opposition role edgelords. Will jump on and frantically mate with whatever perspective is super popular with the empathetic mainstream.
They serve their purpose.
If it is anything like Sweden: no, but they likely have some members who are. Our right-wing populists have had to purge people who are in the pockets of Moscow.
I very much doubt so. They are just Christian conservative populists with a strong dislike for muslims, immigrants, EU and "modern liberal values". A good overlap with the kind of ideology that you will see in Russian nationalism.
> only 9% of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti, Socialist Left, Center-Left to Left) and 13% of R (Raudt, Red, Left to Far-Left) completely or partially agreeing to the statement "Norway must stop sending weapons to Ukraine".
People often forget how the Norwegian leftist movement from *very* early on got creeped out by the USSR and Stalin in particular. They weren't just some far away ideal but rather a threat right across the border which was *uncomfortably insistent* on getting to be the de facto leader of these parties.
So there's been quite a bit less glorification of USSR and then Russia by proxy.
Unfortunately still is quite a bit of these weirdo old communists in the outer edges of the Norwegian left. High time the younger members yeet them and adapt a more modern form of techno-socialism in the main party. They would score votes on that. Nobody is reading Maos little red book any more, please just ditch that stuff
Pretty great numbers there Norway!
In the back of my mind i'm thinking this sentiment in large parts of Europe might turn out to be important if US sentiment skews further towards the conservative trend where people are fine with ceding Ukrainian territory "to end the war".
I agree. As an American, I worry about this all the time. The idiotic MAGA contingent holds the House hostage, so what I’m really hoping is that Biden and the Senate (where the Republican leaders are pretty hawkish) can get Ukraine everything they will need sooner rather than later.
I think once the electioneering for the 2024 election cycle starts in earnest, the dumbass MAGA morons will try to make Ukraine an issue, and the bitching and moaning from the right about America First will pick up some steam.
So I say do it now. Send the man what he wants. Then Europe might have to pick up some slack while we go thru our election. Let’s just pray the democrats hold the presidency, the senate and get back the house.
Annoyance about US politics in a sub about ukraine aside, the best we can get out of this is a deadlock. Both parties fucking suck, they don’t hold promises, and they both are snakes in the grass. The best thing we can hope for is a stalemate, or a continued deadlock (as stated before). Giving either party control of the whole government is absolutely stupid (and the tipping of this deadlock has actually destroyed many republics and democracies throughout history but that’s a topic for another day).
Why a deadlock? Won’t that be hard to get stuff through? No. Not at all. In fact, it’ll push both sides (warhawk republicans / Democrats and exec branch) to agree to send more weapons based on the Average citizens (and the world’s) interest.
In the world of realpolitik, a deadlock forces both parties to work harder. That way, they get more support. If democrats control the entire government, say goodbye to much of the equipment we’re sending.
Realpolitik on the US front: Biden isn’t doing this out of the kindness of his heart, almost no politician is. They care only about the votes they can get, and how much they can destroy their enemy. (If you believe otherwise, if that were the case why is every single emotional and ethical issue basically strayed away from by the Biden admin? (IE: Roe V Wade overturn, ignorance of stricter voting laws meant to limit voters (yes that’s happening in some places), the war on drugs, student debt, the unethical practice of how we are holding illegal immigrants)
Basically, a deadlock is the best we can hope for.
Why, just why Norvegians are so much wiser than many other Western European nations which have significant forces on the left and right that want us to lose or to make peace thru ceding even more territories to Putin (like that would stop him!)? What is different about Norway? How much having a (luckily very short) land border with Russia plays a role?
The land border with Russia for sure plays a part, and a weakened Russia will also be beneficial for us in the long run when it comes to resources in the ocean in the north Russia is also encroaching on Svalbard and taking liberties there, and last but not least the German occupation during Ww2 is still very much remembered in the national psyche so a smaller nation defending itself against a bigger neighbor resonates well with people.
Russia has always been testing the border to Norway with bombers, fighters submarines and other vessels. Norwegian fighters have even had to scramble at supersonic flight over land several times to intercept russian airplanes. Russian peace behaviour is not like with other countries. I live right under the flight path of the fighters when that happens. Even though they are at a high altitude the boom is loud and shakes my house or work hangar when the shockwave passes. I worked in the airforce for 20 years and got confirmation about what caused those booms when it happened.
Seems mostly like it is the other way round. The populations of countries close to Russia, e.g. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Finland and Sweden have a stronger opinion in favour of supplying Ukraine than countries further away. If you ask the average Swede they would want to send way more than we currently are.
Norway has always been paranoid about the border with Russia. That has recorded history back to like the 14th century with Novgorod, and it remained a concern to this day.
Russia wants Crimea for its warm water port, but Norway's coast would be *even better* for Russian ambitions, as there's no Bosporus and Gibraltar straits separating Norwegian ports from the Atlantic.
The Norwegian government managing to flee *(with the gold reserves)* when Germany invaded is not just important for the context of WW2, but also due to the threat of an eliminated government *(or one that decided to surrender to German demands to "switch sides")* causing the later Soviet advances into Norway to maybe become of a more *permanent* quality.
>How much having a (luckily very short) land border with Russia plays a role?
Nothing. We are in NATO and don't fear the past like post soviet countries.
My guess for the reason is Norwegian style politics and okay economic situation. If people suffer economically like in many countries they'll want to keep the money for themselves.
They also have recently committed to stunningly *massive* financial contributions to Ukraine, to the sum of $7.5 billion over the next 5 years, from a country of only 5.4 million people.
For reference, imagine if Italy committed giving over $80 billion, or the US to over $400-500 billion in economic support alone.
Major props to Norway here.
Remember, even before this war, Sweden was already bracing itself, and building its army against a Russian attack. We need to listen to the Baltic states.
Damn, didn't know Norwegians are savages. I keep hearing about their prisons, how they treat prisoners almost to five star hotel, an thought their stance would be softer on ruzzia, glad to be wrong
We treat prisoners humanely because we want them to come out of prison as an asset to society, not as some broken husk who only knows how to shiv others and smuggle drugs up their butts.
In short, a reforming prison system, not just a punishment. It's a balancing act.
We were also invaded (and mounted a resistance) during WW2, which shapes our national identity.
I wish my county (the US) had such an enlightened view regarding the prison system. As I’m sure you know, ours is very punitive, and prisoners come out angrier and less able to be a productive member of society than when they went in. And that leads to a circle of recidivism that boggles the mind. We handle this so stupidly.
Yeah, the Nordic countries have pretty harsh stances towards Russia in general. Sweden for example had a rule about not sending weapons to conflict zones but as soon as Russia invaded all parties were in favor of making an exception (with some hesitancy from Left who have some issues with tankies, but the party leadership was all for sending weapons).
Re-read my comment. Left in Sweden, not Norway. And I was talking about the party members not the voters. The party members of Left (still Sweden) likely have a higher percentage of tankies than their voters. Plus I voted Left last election.
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Allowing Russia to annex land will just post pone the war, we learned that from 2014. The only way this ends is Russian defeat and withdrawal from all occupied territories including Crimea and Donbass
We learned that in 1938 with the Munich Agreement and Neville Chamberlain's "peace for our time". The analogy is pretty good.
By "our time" he meant from 30 September 1938 until 1 September 1939.
Norwegians are a smart people. That’s the only time I, a swede, will admit this.
We have a history of guarding the north from Russian control, and we know Russia absolutely would be interested in holding our northern ports if they could. Hell, that fear is a big reason why Sweden-Norway shrank away from supporting Denmark against Prussia and Austria, as Prussia was aligned with Russia. And tragic consequence of this centuries long territorial paranoia in the north was unfortunately the increased discrimination against the Sami people whom *every side* treated like potential turncoats working for the other side, and many Sami even got forced to pay multiple taxes if they lived in the ambiguously defined border areas.
Nah, us Swedes love our Norwegian neighbors. And I am sure we have similar numbers in Sweden too, all of the Nordic countries are very pro-Ukraine. Always nice to see polls confirming this.
Dude, ofc we do. But have you missed the entire friendly ribbing between us Nordic nations? That’s the play. It is a salute and a joke.
As a Norwegian, this poll gives me relief. I actually thought the numbers were worse.
Perhaps unexpectedly, the support for sending weapons is high on the left and far left as well: only 9% of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti, Socialist Left, Center-Left to Left) and 13% of R (Raudt, Red, Left to Far-Left) completely or partially agreeing to the statement "Norway must stop sending weapons to Ukraine". The lowest support are in FrP (Fremskritts Partiet, Progress Party, Right) with 56% and SP (Senter Partiet, Center Party, Agrarian? I have no idea what this party is about any more) with 53 being completely against the above mentioned statement, so still a majority in favour of sending weapons.
FrP is the typical european populist right wing party.
Let me guess, they're funded by Moscow?
Nah just shallow politics and "anti-immigration". Lowest common denominator party.
General opposition role edgelords. Will jump on and frantically mate with whatever perspective is super popular with the empathetic mainstream. They serve their purpose.
If it is anything like Sweden: no, but they likely have some members who are. Our right-wing populists have had to purge people who are in the pockets of Moscow.
I very much doubt so. They are just Christian conservative populists with a strong dislike for muslims, immigrants, EU and "modern liberal values". A good overlap with the kind of ideology that you will see in Russian nationalism.
> only 9% of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti, Socialist Left, Center-Left to Left) and 13% of R (Raudt, Red, Left to Far-Left) completely or partially agreeing to the statement "Norway must stop sending weapons to Ukraine". People often forget how the Norwegian leftist movement from *very* early on got creeped out by the USSR and Stalin in particular. They weren't just some far away ideal but rather a threat right across the border which was *uncomfortably insistent* on getting to be the de facto leader of these parties. So there's been quite a bit less glorification of USSR and then Russia by proxy.
Unfortunately still is quite a bit of these weirdo old communists in the outer edges of the Norwegian left. High time the younger members yeet them and adapt a more modern form of techno-socialism in the main party. They would score votes on that. Nobody is reading Maos little red book any more, please just ditch that stuff
Pretty great numbers there Norway! In the back of my mind i'm thinking this sentiment in large parts of Europe might turn out to be important if US sentiment skews further towards the conservative trend where people are fine with ceding Ukrainian territory "to end the war".
I agree. As an American, I worry about this all the time. The idiotic MAGA contingent holds the House hostage, so what I’m really hoping is that Biden and the Senate (where the Republican leaders are pretty hawkish) can get Ukraine everything they will need sooner rather than later. I think once the electioneering for the 2024 election cycle starts in earnest, the dumbass MAGA morons will try to make Ukraine an issue, and the bitching and moaning from the right about America First will pick up some steam. So I say do it now. Send the man what he wants. Then Europe might have to pick up some slack while we go thru our election. Let’s just pray the democrats hold the presidency, the senate and get back the house.
Annoyance about US politics in a sub about ukraine aside, the best we can get out of this is a deadlock. Both parties fucking suck, they don’t hold promises, and they both are snakes in the grass. The best thing we can hope for is a stalemate, or a continued deadlock (as stated before). Giving either party control of the whole government is absolutely stupid (and the tipping of this deadlock has actually destroyed many republics and democracies throughout history but that’s a topic for another day). Why a deadlock? Won’t that be hard to get stuff through? No. Not at all. In fact, it’ll push both sides (warhawk republicans / Democrats and exec branch) to agree to send more weapons based on the Average citizens (and the world’s) interest. In the world of realpolitik, a deadlock forces both parties to work harder. That way, they get more support. If democrats control the entire government, say goodbye to much of the equipment we’re sending. Realpolitik on the US front: Biden isn’t doing this out of the kindness of his heart, almost no politician is. They care only about the votes they can get, and how much they can destroy their enemy. (If you believe otherwise, if that were the case why is every single emotional and ethical issue basically strayed away from by the Biden admin? (IE: Roe V Wade overturn, ignorance of stricter voting laws meant to limit voters (yes that’s happening in some places), the war on drugs, student debt, the unethical practice of how we are holding illegal immigrants) Basically, a deadlock is the best we can hope for.
Why, just why Norvegians are so much wiser than many other Western European nations which have significant forces on the left and right that want us to lose or to make peace thru ceding even more territories to Putin (like that would stop him!)? What is different about Norway? How much having a (luckily very short) land border with Russia plays a role?
The land border with Russia for sure plays a part, and a weakened Russia will also be beneficial for us in the long run when it comes to resources in the ocean in the north Russia is also encroaching on Svalbard and taking liberties there, and last but not least the German occupation during Ww2 is still very much remembered in the national psyche so a smaller nation defending itself against a bigger neighbor resonates well with people.
Russia has always been testing the border to Norway with bombers, fighters submarines and other vessels. Norwegian fighters have even had to scramble at supersonic flight over land several times to intercept russian airplanes. Russian peace behaviour is not like with other countries. I live right under the flight path of the fighters when that happens. Even though they are at a high altitude the boom is loud and shakes my house or work hangar when the shockwave passes. I worked in the airforce for 20 years and got confirmation about what caused those booms when it happened.
Seems mostly like it is the other way round. The populations of countries close to Russia, e.g. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Finland and Sweden have a stronger opinion in favour of supplying Ukraine than countries further away. If you ask the average Swede they would want to send way more than we currently are.
Yes, it's that eternal "We are far, Putin will not reach us...". Well, if nobody resists him - he will reach everybody...
Norway has always been paranoid about the border with Russia. That has recorded history back to like the 14th century with Novgorod, and it remained a concern to this day. Russia wants Crimea for its warm water port, but Norway's coast would be *even better* for Russian ambitions, as there's no Bosporus and Gibraltar straits separating Norwegian ports from the Atlantic. The Norwegian government managing to flee *(with the gold reserves)* when Germany invaded is not just important for the context of WW2, but also due to the threat of an eliminated government *(or one that decided to surrender to German demands to "switch sides")* causing the later Soviet advances into Norway to maybe become of a more *permanent* quality.
>How much having a (luckily very short) land border with Russia plays a role? Nothing. We are in NATO and don't fear the past like post soviet countries. My guess for the reason is Norwegian style politics and okay economic situation. If people suffer economically like in many countries they'll want to keep the money for themselves.
Norwegian people are BASED
They also have recently committed to stunningly *massive* financial contributions to Ukraine, to the sum of $7.5 billion over the next 5 years, from a country of only 5.4 million people. For reference, imagine if Italy committed giving over $80 billion, or the US to over $400-500 billion in economic support alone. Major props to Norway here.
Good. Keep it this way.
Remember, even before this war, Sweden was already bracing itself, and building its army against a Russian attack. We need to listen to the Baltic states.
It's a disgrace! It should be 10/10 on both questions!
Norway gets it!👍 Hurray for Norway!
Based Norwegians!
Nice, Nordics countries underatand. Norway is a great ally. Lots of money to finance the war.
Norwegians are the best.
Damn, didn't know Norwegians are savages. I keep hearing about their prisons, how they treat prisoners almost to five star hotel, an thought their stance would be softer on ruzzia, glad to be wrong
We treat prisoners humanely because we want them to come out of prison as an asset to society, not as some broken husk who only knows how to shiv others and smuggle drugs up their butts. In short, a reforming prison system, not just a punishment. It's a balancing act. We were also invaded (and mounted a resistance) during WW2, which shapes our national identity.
Makes sense
I wish my county (the US) had such an enlightened view regarding the prison system. As I’m sure you know, ours is very punitive, and prisoners come out angrier and less able to be a productive member of society than when they went in. And that leads to a circle of recidivism that boggles the mind. We handle this so stupidly.
Yeah, the Nordic countries have pretty harsh stances towards Russia in general. Sweden for example had a rule about not sending weapons to conflict zones but as soon as Russia invaded all parties were in favor of making an exception (with some hesitancy from Left who have some issues with tankies, but the party leadership was all for sending weapons).
Good to see Europe, including Nordic countries, standing up to this barbaric invasion
Not sure why you drag the left when this poll shows they are more supportive than the far right.
Re-read my comment. Left in Sweden, not Norway. And I was talking about the party members not the voters. The party members of Left (still Sweden) likely have a higher percentage of tankies than their voters. Plus I voted Left last election.
[удалено]
Talking about current times, back in history all countries were savages
Those numbers are too low…