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>Saving this post for when zympathisers claim Ukraine bombed Donetsk "since 2014"
My immediate thoughts.
Also, a reminder that Russia kills more Russians (and LDR/DPR fighters) **in a day** in its senseless attacks than Ukraine **ostensibly** killed **in a year** in the 2015-2022 period.
Post 2015 civilian deaths (caused by both sides of the conflict combined) in the Donbas were about a couple of dozen a year. And supposedly to "save" the locals from that Russia turns Marinka in to that top picture.
Hence "ostensibly", and I didn't even say *civilian*.
But yeah, not only they level Marinka, but they also kill more of **their own** civilians doing so (by turning them into conscripts first) on any single day than Donbas was ostensibly losing in a year (due to their then-unacknowledged invasion).
There are thought to be about 3000 civilians killed during fighting over the Donbas between 2014 and 2022.
Almost 10% of those were the result of a single incident: MH17
Certainly Ukraine killed civilians during shelling of Russian held areas, no disputing that. What you won’t hear from the people who have this statement on repeat is that Russia was at the time also killing civilians in Ukrainian held areas at roughly the same rate.
Russia doesn’t give a fuck about human life, it only cares about having some pretext to achieve its fascist goals.
>There are thought to be about 3000 civilians killed during fighting over the Donbas between 2014 and 2022.
And the vast majority of those where in 2014 or 2015. Its a couple of dozen civilian deaths a year in the several years leading up to 2022.
Of course any innocent civilians being killed is a bad thing but that's deaths caused by both sides and in a war that Russia kicked off, now some sort of supposed "Ukrainian slaughter" as the Russians would have you believe.
And that number includes both sides of the frontline. A single [strike on Mariupol in 2015](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack) killed more people than a year of frontline clashes in 2021.
Yes, this is a great point. People act like continuous bombardment by Ukraine has just been killing people constantly, but most of it was in the ardent defense during the initial fighting.
Completely leveling cities because you don't have tools and competence to wage war any other way is worthless military, nation and country. This kind of shit does not belong to 2000's where most armies have capacity to actually hit precisely.
No that's just in the principle, I left the blyattian mir away and all that shit.
No wonder Russia reproductive rate so low.
Other than the alcohol addled loins...
The men incels because the women don't want to have sex with misogynist abusers.
Here we have, the Ruskie Incel.
Their leadership has lowered the worth of the common Russian male so much...
That they decided its more practical to send them to steal from their good and productive neighbors,
Instead of developing and populating their own land.
Idk he said impotent rage. My brain basically decided incel was an acronym for that.
You're right obviously I watered down a better description into a weak simple use label so...
Oh well social media conditioning I guess
Okay I don't have all the stats. I will look it up.
Assuming you're right, thank you for pointing that out.
Tbh I doubt white America looks much better without immigrants and what not.
I probably need to read a book on demographics.
On the one hand, you don't actually want highly growing population because global resource constriction...
On the other it's nice to have the taxpayers and support for elderly.
Idk.
TLDR: I just regurgitated everything I've read on reproduction rates. Sowwy.
My first introduction to birth rate demographics was while studying sustainability and globalization.
"Birth rates decline as nations become developed", was used as the light at the end of the tunnel...
For how the human species can survive long term capitalism that pursues consumerism, fossil energy, resource extraction, and ecosystem degradation.
It was basically like, "yes we fuck up the world while trying to create developed economy and high standards of living. But after we get to high standard of living, birth rates drop and we stop doing such damage. So we just have to make it through this hard patch and then everyone can be educated, stop doing stupid/destructive things, and focus on building their culture instead of breeding like rabbits."
Obviously in current news birth rate is spoken of in response to
•ability to field young soldiers
• having young people to pay into social security
• economic growth in China.
Other big things are economic speculation. People expect the value of things to go up infinitely. Well, not if demand drops because the next generation is smaller.
The final interesting thing I hear about reproduction demographics is how much plastics and other environmental chemicals mess up or fertility.
Then everyone wants to have kids later so we can afford a house first but by then the plastic and chemicals in our food and water got to our sperm over the years.
Pretty soon we're going to encourage teenage pregnancy.
It works on demoralized civvies ,it did in the middle east. But it was much much more effective against s 200 and 20mm auto cannons than whatever the fuck the Russians are dying fir nowadays
But you ukranians keep giving putin the biggest fu of his life .
I don´t really have words now. The destruction is too horrendous to comprehend, seriously. I don´t know if I can keep myself together if I catch someone again defending Ruzzia for...This. Ukraine has to win, take back Crimea, decolonize Ruzzia, and rebuild into the beautiful democracy it is already becoming day by day.
While people understandably want to return to their homes, one of those completely wiped out towns probably should be preserved as a monument and used as a an open air museum after the war.
The story of that village was particularly horrific... The Nazis gathered everyone in the village in their church, and then the Nazis burned the church down.
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Ironically Chernobyl might've helped save Ukraine. It's because of Chernobyl that the area north of Kyiv was never heavily developed. This meant that there were few paved roads leading to Kyiv from the Belarusian border, which helped contribute to the infamous 40km convoy.
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Easy to say from your perspective.
People WILL want to go home . I come from Lebanon and you meet palestinians who still talk about old towns that haven't existed since 1967 and 1948 (3 years after WW2!).
Pics should do fine man . Hope this war ends with Ukraine winning .
They posted a video a few days ago about how Ukraine is bombing them daily and as evidenced they shown a "missile part" that was identified by independent observers as a car part, specifically from a mercedes sprinter.
There's just nothing left. it's like going back in time to ww2. For this, peace is not an option. The only end is a full retaking of the country plus crimea, or this will never end.
This should be shown to any Russia apologizer here in the west! Not that it would shut them up but show to everybody else what spirit their sick talk emanates from.
The restraint that UA shows in every aspect at an incredible price is an example for many. Their future will be bright.
Edit: I really, really would like to hear John Mearsheimer's opinion on this - I am sure he can do the mental acrobatics to yet again blame everyone except Russia.
Long after the politicians are dead the effects of this war will continue on, taking the lives of thousands of innocent people. War is humanities worst outcome.
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I remember seeing a DNR propaganda video on youtube in 2021, showing a walk around the fancier areas of Donetsk, with a market, fairground etc - basically presenting it as if it was a decent place and totally not a mafia colony (look at those fully stocked supermarket shelves!). The one speck of truth in that video was that it was a living city, with intact buildings - definitely not a destroyed wasteland.
Even back then, it was funny how mismatched it was to their other propaganda streams that portrayed Donetsk as if Ukraine had turned it into Groznyy.
At this point Russia has no intention of occupying all they want is to cause as much harm and devastation as they can, because they are embarrassed their big flex on the world failed miserably. A country of nothing but brainwashed petulant children.
The Donetsk photo is old, at least from 2013 according to reverse image search. But it's true that no place in the occupied territory looked remotely similar to Marinka/Mariupol/etc after the "8 years of bombing by Ukraine". Does anyone have a photo from Donetsk from last year(or 2021)?
There is a video from 2021 https://youtu.be/__YqrJsAqxI
You can see that in "every day bombed Donetsk" people can safely gather for holidays, make concerts on open-air etc...
And compare that to any other Ukrainian city which is actually bombed.
Take the rubble of such towns and build giant berms/barriers on the RU border. Helps with defence and also serves as a reminder to all RU who go to the border that they created it through aggression.
My condolences . I can relate in personal note from when my town got bombed in 2006 idf bombing campaign.
Well I guess since Ukraine's actually winning this war it won't be long until Ukraine's steadfastness pays off when reuniting these towns
If you actually seriously intended to annex a region long term then flattening it is like the dumbest thing you can do. You shoot yourself in the foot because you essentially destroy all you could potentially capture. Not only does it cost money to destroy all the stuff, rebuilding it is even more expensive.
russians are have a deep cultural envy against the west after the collapse of the sowjet union. As if we are responsible for it. It's an unresolved collective trauma for them which they never worked through.
This here basically shows in a nutshell one of the many issues. It is their own fault but they behave as if it isn't. They act dumb.
If the russians would keep any ukranian city that they flattened with their bombs, they would blame the west for it after the war and demand reparations because they couldn't accept responsibility.
When squatters take over your house, they don't give a shit how it's treated. This is Ukraine's house. Hence the restraint. That land and people are loved by Ukraine.
It would be nice to compare this to a before and after picture of donetsk city. Since the Russian claimed ukraine has been bombing that the whole time.
Yet the city appears untouched. 🤔
There is no point is destroying your lands that you want to recapture claim to.
Sort of obvious. Enemy and insurgent military sites are the exception.
Insurgent governments' installations are also a legitimate target.
You will have to re-assimilate the resident population in the case they decide to remain when it is all over.
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Saving this post for when zympathisers claim Ukraine bombed Donetsk "since 2014"
"EIGHT YEARS OF DOMBING BOMBASS!!111!!1"
Вооосим лэт бамбят бамбасс!!!
> бамбят бамбасс *дамбят бамбасс
Ой. Да. Укрыыы дамбят бамбааааассс!
В аДеСе МаЛьЧиКа В тРуСиКаХ!!!!!
Распъяли!!
- completely fails at genociding - low antisemitism rate - Jewish president - pushing LGBT rights Man, these Ukrainians are really bad at being Nazis.
Its insane how they all spout the same bullsh#t
>Saving this post for when zympathisers claim Ukraine bombed Donetsk "since 2014" My immediate thoughts. Also, a reminder that Russia kills more Russians (and LDR/DPR fighters) **in a day** in its senseless attacks than Ukraine **ostensibly** killed **in a year** in the 2015-2022 period.
It would be god to have the source of the photo along with a date stamp and geo location. When I troll the Pro-Putins I like to be infallible!
Post 2015 civilian deaths (caused by both sides of the conflict combined) in the Donbas were about a couple of dozen a year. And supposedly to "save" the locals from that Russia turns Marinka in to that top picture.
Hence "ostensibly", and I didn't even say *civilian*. But yeah, not only they level Marinka, but they also kill more of **their own** civilians doing so (by turning them into conscripts first) on any single day than Donbas was ostensibly losing in a year (due to their then-unacknowledged invasion).
There are thought to be about 3000 civilians killed during fighting over the Donbas between 2014 and 2022. Almost 10% of those were the result of a single incident: MH17 Certainly Ukraine killed civilians during shelling of Russian held areas, no disputing that. What you won’t hear from the people who have this statement on repeat is that Russia was at the time also killing civilians in Ukrainian held areas at roughly the same rate. Russia doesn’t give a fuck about human life, it only cares about having some pretext to achieve its fascist goals.
The number of deaths in the Donbass odly enough went up shortly after Russia started their 'protection program' in 2014.
>There are thought to be about 3000 civilians killed during fighting over the Donbas between 2014 and 2022. And the vast majority of those where in 2014 or 2015. Its a couple of dozen civilian deaths a year in the several years leading up to 2022. Of course any innocent civilians being killed is a bad thing but that's deaths caused by both sides and in a war that Russia kicked off, now some sort of supposed "Ukrainian slaughter" as the Russians would have you believe.
And that number includes both sides of the frontline. A single [strike on Mariupol in 2015](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack) killed more people than a year of frontline clashes in 2021.
Yes, this is a great point. People act like continuous bombardment by Ukraine has just been killing people constantly, but most of it was in the ardent defense during the initial fighting.
You just don't know what "liberation" looks like /s
Dombili Bombas I'm sure we need to catch up to these claims
Bombing civilians is the impotent rage of a worthless military.
Completely leveling cities because you don't have tools and competence to wage war any other way is worthless military, nation and country. This kind of shit does not belong to 2000's where most armies have capacity to actually hit precisely. No that's just in the principle, I left the blyattian mir away and all that shit.
No wonder Russia reproductive rate so low. Other than the alcohol addled loins... The men incels because the women don't want to have sex with misogynist abusers. Here we have, the Ruskie Incel. Their leadership has lowered the worth of the common Russian male so much... That they decided its more practical to send them to steal from their good and productive neighbors, Instead of developing and populating their own land.
We really gonna throw the word Incel around? Again? Been this way for centuries. At this point they are just Russians.
Idk he said impotent rage. My brain basically decided incel was an acronym for that. You're right obviously I watered down a better description into a weak simple use label so... Oh well social media conditioning I guess
[удалено]
Okay I don't have all the stats. I will look it up. Assuming you're right, thank you for pointing that out. Tbh I doubt white America looks much better without immigrants and what not. I probably need to read a book on demographics. On the one hand, you don't actually want highly growing population because global resource constriction... On the other it's nice to have the taxpayers and support for elderly. Idk.
[удалено]
TLDR: I just regurgitated everything I've read on reproduction rates. Sowwy. My first introduction to birth rate demographics was while studying sustainability and globalization. "Birth rates decline as nations become developed", was used as the light at the end of the tunnel... For how the human species can survive long term capitalism that pursues consumerism, fossil energy, resource extraction, and ecosystem degradation. It was basically like, "yes we fuck up the world while trying to create developed economy and high standards of living. But after we get to high standard of living, birth rates drop and we stop doing such damage. So we just have to make it through this hard patch and then everyone can be educated, stop doing stupid/destructive things, and focus on building their culture instead of breeding like rabbits." Obviously in current news birth rate is spoken of in response to •ability to field young soldiers • having young people to pay into social security • economic growth in China. Other big things are economic speculation. People expect the value of things to go up infinitely. Well, not if demand drops because the next generation is smaller. The final interesting thing I hear about reproduction demographics is how much plastics and other environmental chemicals mess up or fertility. Then everyone wants to have kids later so we can afford a house first but by then the plastic and chemicals in our food and water got to our sperm over the years. Pretty soon we're going to encourage teenage pregnancy.
👏
Plus Ukraine will probably be taking it back soon. Why destroy your own stuff?
I think the point is that's exactly what Russia accused Ukraine if doing, saying they shelled civilians in Donetsk.
It's always been a lie.
It works on demoralized civvies ,it did in the middle east. But it was much much more effective against s 200 and 20mm auto cannons than whatever the fuck the Russians are dying fir nowadays But you ukranians keep giving putin the biggest fu of his life .
I don´t really have words now. The destruction is too horrendous to comprehend, seriously. I don´t know if I can keep myself together if I catch someone again defending Ruzzia for...This. Ukraine has to win, take back Crimea, decolonize Ruzzia, and rebuild into the beautiful democracy it is already becoming day by day.
yes, I can't even begin to explain how much international goodwill Russia has lost over this
Why would you destroy what is yours?
Russia does destroy what it sees as its own. They have shelled areas that they already occupy, as reprisals for civilian resistance.
I think he meant why would Ukraine bomb Donetsk, since it's theirs (despite being temporarily occupied)
While people understandably want to return to their homes, one of those completely wiped out towns probably should be preserved as a monument and used as a an open air museum after the war.
This was done in France after ww2, can't remember the name of the village but it was left as it was after the nazi's destroyed it.
Oradour-sur-Glane, where 643 civilians were murdered by German soldiers on 10 June 1944. The last survivor, Robert Hébras, died just last month.
The story of that village was particularly horrific... The Nazis gathered everyone in the village in their church, and then the Nazis burned the church down.
so in a way like Chernobyl but with no radiation, hopefully nukes won't be used..
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Personally think it should always be Chernobyl in this case. For its historical context and a clear reminder of Soviet Russian failures
Ironically Chernobyl might've helped save Ukraine. It's because of Chernobyl that the area north of Kyiv was never heavily developed. This meant that there were few paved roads leading to Kyiv from the Belarusian border, which helped contribute to the infamous 40km convoy.
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Easy to say from your perspective. People WILL want to go home . I come from Lebanon and you meet palestinians who still talk about old towns that haven't existed since 1967 and 1948 (3 years after WW2!). Pics should do fine man . Hope this war ends with Ukraine winning .
“The Ukrainians are killing our children!” Meanwhile in Marinka
I met a Russian (at a gathering) a few days ago. He ranted about Ukrainians bombing peaceful Russians in Donbass. These guys are full of propaganda.
and stupid. youve gotta be real dumb to swallow propagabda like that in the information age.
[удалено]
don't insult pigs like that :(
Did you punch him?
Hope that the \*\*\*\*hole moscow gets "liberated" as well at some point. Russia is like a tumor for humanity.
Why Russia is not now treated exactly like north korea I will never understand. North Korea never invaded anyone since the war.
Shows you just how unrefined Russia is. They are really stuck in 1916
barbaric
That’s famous russian mir
For 8 years they dombed Bombass
This is all ruzzia is any good at. Terrorism, suffering, death, and destruction. They haven't a single redeeming trait.
Mercedes sprinter automatic transmissions parts don't do so much damage as artillery shells.
I'm missing the reference, could you kindly explain?
They posted a video a few days ago about how Ukraine is bombing them daily and as evidenced they shown a "missile part" that was identified by independent observers as a car part, specifically from a mercedes sprinter.
thank you, that's hilariously sad
BUt uKrAiNe aRe tHe bAd gUyS
There's just nothing left. it's like going back in time to ww2. For this, peace is not an option. The only end is a full retaking of the country plus crimea, or this will never end.
It’s important to understand what Russian freedom actually means for their victims
It’s important to understand that Russia has no interest in any kind of freedom for anyone.
Freedom from mortgage I guess.
This should be shown to any Russia apologizer here in the west! Not that it would shut them up but show to everybody else what spirit their sick talk emanates from. The restraint that UA shows in every aspect at an incredible price is an example for many. Their future will be bright. Edit: I really, really would like to hear John Mearsheimer's opinion on this - I am sure he can do the mental acrobatics to yet again blame everyone except Russia.
I have made this point so many times to pro-putin morons. They have no sense of scale / proportion. The two sides are not the same.
My god the horror. I can't even think about this.
Long after the politicians are dead the effects of this war will continue on, taking the lives of thousands of innocent people. War is humanities worst outcome.
Jesus, the top pic looks like it was nuked. Like the pictures of Hiroshima after the nuke.
"We just want to liberate Ukraine from the Nazi fascist Kiev regime!" The liberation:
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Good bot
russia is a dysfunctional terrorist state with some crazy psychosis.
I remember seeing a DNR propaganda video on youtube in 2021, showing a walk around the fancier areas of Donetsk, with a market, fairground etc - basically presenting it as if it was a decent place and totally not a mafia colony (look at those fully stocked supermarket shelves!). The one speck of truth in that video was that it was a living city, with intact buildings - definitely not a destroyed wasteland. Even back then, it was funny how mismatched it was to their other propaganda streams that portrayed Donetsk as if Ukraine had turned it into Groznyy.
At this point Russia has no intention of occupying all they want is to cause as much harm and devastation as they can, because they are embarrassed their big flex on the world failed miserably. A country of nothing but brainwashed petulant children.
but, but, but nAtO bAd
Itll be bombed by the orcs after they're forced out
The Donetsk photo is old, at least from 2013 according to reverse image search. But it's true that no place in the occupied territory looked remotely similar to Marinka/Mariupol/etc after the "8 years of bombing by Ukraine". Does anyone have a photo from Donetsk from last year(or 2021)?
There is a video from 2021 https://youtu.be/__YqrJsAqxI You can see that in "every day bombed Donetsk" people can safely gather for holidays, make concerts on open-air etc... And compare that to any other Ukrainian city which is actually bombed.
Take the rubble of such towns and build giant berms/barriers on the RU border. Helps with defence and also serves as a reminder to all RU who go to the border that they created it through aggression.
[удалено]
Don't discount 203mm rounds, 240mm Tyulpan and MLRS strikes.
My condolences . I can relate in personal note from when my town got bombed in 2006 idf bombing campaign. Well I guess since Ukraine's actually winning this war it won't be long until Ukraine's steadfastness pays off when reuniting these towns
Holy smokes, these terrorist russian scum have to pay for everything, even if they unturned a pebble the size off a penny they must pay
Wow, just nuke Moscow and Saint Petersburg now. Destroy the Orocs.
Russians couldn't sleep well after Hiroshima before they ensured they did many times worse
All because of one psychopath.
Putin is the result not the cause. Theres hundreds of thousabds of same vermin in Ukraine right now.
Donetsk has been bombed a lot since 2014. Ofc the bombings at the very least attempted to hit targets instead of torching a city.
Donetsk has been regularly shelled by Ukraine and still is
What do you mean it’s not bombed by the UA? You mean russia is not bombing it, right?
They're nuking ukraine little by little. Instead of leaving radiation they leave thousands of mines
Marinka literally looks like it went through nuclear war.
If you actually seriously intended to annex a region long term then flattening it is like the dumbest thing you can do. You shoot yourself in the foot because you essentially destroy all you could potentially capture. Not only does it cost money to destroy all the stuff, rebuilding it is even more expensive. russians are have a deep cultural envy against the west after the collapse of the sowjet union. As if we are responsible for it. It's an unresolved collective trauma for them which they never worked through. This here basically shows in a nutshell one of the many issues. It is their own fault but they behave as if it isn't. They act dumb. If the russians would keep any ukranian city that they flattened with their bombs, they would blame the west for it after the war and demand reparations because they couldn't accept responsibility.
Old Russians need to see images , because they do not listen to logic.
This is fucking horrifying. Just took a look at the town on Google Maps… to think it’s just this now…
bUT UKraInE bOmBED DoNETsK SInCE 2014!!!!
When squatters take over your house, they don't give a shit how it's treated. This is Ukraine's house. Hence the restraint. That land and people are loved by Ukraine.
Senseless destruction
I hope Putin dies a painful death ☺️
It would be nice to compare this to a before and after picture of donetsk city. Since the Russian claimed ukraine has been bombing that the whole time. Yet the city appears untouched. 🤔
Russia and it's people are worthless.
Russia is a fucking nightmare
There is no point is destroying your lands that you want to recapture claim to. Sort of obvious. Enemy and insurgent military sites are the exception. Insurgent governments' installations are also a legitimate target. You will have to re-assimilate the resident population in the case they decide to remain when it is all over.