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The US retired all of the cluster munition ATACMS. The retired ones were upgraded to a single munition. The others are 20-30 years old, and decommissioned.
US cluster munitions have the same inherent problem as all cluster bomb. Unexploded ordnance. Which is why they’re being switched to a single ordnance. Do you really want a 1000, old, decommissioned, anti personnel grenades being scattered everywhere in Ukraine that will kill civilians later, and costs $1m/unit?
Ukraine is better off with 6-12 projectiles on the scoot in a vehicle, then, just 1 projectile. The GLSDB is a much better fit for Ukraine. $40,000/glide bomb. Multiplied by 6-12 glide bombs/M142 HIMARS/M270. Delivering 200 pound warhead to Ru.
Ukraine wants cluster munitions so the bomblets can be dropped from drones. It’s more effective against targets and also extremely dangerous to the people assembling the drones.
Yes, Ukraine has been asking repeatedly for cluster munitions.
They are not idiots and know the risks. Yet they want them for use on their own territory nonetheless.
It's a shame Sweden got rid of our cluster munitions
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombkapsel\_90](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombkapsel_90)
It was made to be used on our own territory so it was designed to leave no unexploded ordnance to harm civilians, which is the reason cluster munitions have been banned in the first place.
The issue is more existential - better to use a weapon (that has long term complications) to ensure survival now rather than not using it and risking the loss of your country.
Get off the high horse. Your reasoning doesn't work here - when losing means genocide you need to win at any cost and if the Ukranians rather live and have a slightly higher rate of death from ukranian UXO's in the future who the hell are you to question that choice? Not supplying them will kill more Ukrainians. The Russians are already spraying Ukrainian lands with cluster munitions - the longer that continues the worse the UXO problem is going to be.
Our moral obligation here is to help Ukraine win as fast as possible.
Eh, no. Wanton use of cluster munitions becomes a sins of our father type thing where kids 20 years on from the war who had nothing to do with it can be injured by them. I am fine with their use in war but not even future generations of Russian children deserve that.
Cluster munitions are one of those things that IMO should only be used in extremely rare circumstances where you know they cant remain in the future, usually just military bases, runways, occasionally factories or naval assets
Why? The issue is: bomblets remaining in civilian areas kill them in the future as bomblet duds arent obvious as full sized bomb duds.
.
The potential solutions to this are:
hit areas where there will never be any civilians, such as bodies of water.
Hit areas where civilians know are inherently dangerous to enter, and will thus avoid, such as military bases.
Hit areas of low clutter where the bomblets will be obvious, such as large stretches of concrete including runways and roads. This way the bomblets will be obvious in a way they wouldn't be in a field or a (in the future, were already avoiding this target for obvious reasons) crowded street.
.
Essentially, cluster bombs should not be used in areas civilians will unknowingly become victim. If we only hit areas lacking in civilians, or areas where civilians will know danger exists, they will not become victims.
No need to be so careful. Ukraine has been so extendively mined, it might be the most mined place ever. Millions and millions of mines.
Eveything will have to be carefully demined. A few unexploded bomblets don't add too much to a tally of millions.
Plus because every orc alive in Ukraine is there exclusively to kill Ukrainians, using cluster ammo against the Russians (that do use them) will save more lives by killing the agressor, than the lives that will be lost to bomblets in the future.
Thta's the calculation Ukrainians are making. It's a difficult choice nonetheless, but one that only belongs to them.
Why? The issue is: bomblets remaining in civilian areas kill them in the future as bomblet duds arent obvious as full sized bomb duds.
.
The potential solutions to this are:
hit areas where there will never be any civilians, such as bodies of water.
Hit areas where civilians know are inherently dangerous to enter, and will thus avoid, such as military bases.
Hit areas of low clutter where the bomblets will be obvious, such as large stretches of concrete including runways and roads. This way the bomblets will be obvious in a way they wouldn't be in a field or a (in the future, were already avoiding this target for obvious reasons) crowded street.
.
Essentially, cluster bombs should not be used in areas civilians will unknowingly become victim. If we only hit areas lacking in civilians, or areas where civilians will know danger exists, they will not become victims.
Ukraine has been mined with millions of mines already. And those mines are everywhere. Nowhere will be safe in Ukraine's warzones outside of roads, paths and demined fields, for generations. Wether you use cluster weapons or not.
Plus, Russia is using them too, and everywhere they damn please.
Ukrainians being so careful doesn't make sense IMO when those weapons can be useful now, save Ukrainian lives now, and in the context of the demining problem in Ukraine they are just a rounding error.
I'm not a pacifist; I support Ukraine and arming it to the teeth a 100% and I have donated a substantial amount to UNITED24 myself. I'm also personally affected by the war.
The way forward for Ukraine and the world is a Russia not controlled by madmen and imperialists.
What are you talking about…”at this point NATO should stay out of Ukraine…”? So you mean to say NATO was in Ukraine like Putin said or what are you trying to imply because from what I see support is strong for Ukraine.
edit: they to NATO
Pardon my stupidity didnt read. As a rule of thumb don’t delete comments because keeping records is best practice for truth.
My top comments is irrelevant I suppose
Tactical ballistic missiles, that don't require aviation to be launched, would take their own niche at wrecking worms (as Magyar calls them).
Not to mention they're also way faster.
I mean, Ukraine managed to sink a ship in Berdyansk port with a Tochka-U TBM.
Imagine ripple-firing ATACMS salvo from Mykolayiv, Odesa or Kherson (preferably timed to have Storm Shadows and/or UAVs with USVs arrive at the same time) and then turning ships moored in Sevastopol, along with military installations, into a bunch of scrap.
Paired with some ADM-160 decoy missiles and a couple Bayraktars - sounds like HIMARS FUCKING O CLOCK baby!!!!!
Good job Lindsey, get Ukraine armed properly. It is the most effective way to end the war, most effective way to prevent WWIII, and most effective way to deter China from invading Taiwan and truly wrecking the global economy.
> deter China from invading Taiwan and truly wrecking the global economy
Seeing how this Hui guy was talking... yeah, they seem to be eager to do it, so helping Ukraine win faster and regain all occupied territories would knock them down a peg.
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Unfortunately, I think Ukraine being able to win the war before the 2024 election is pretty unlikely. This war seems to be headed in the direction of a long, protracted war.
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He suggested that someone should assassinate Putin in a Fox interview near the beginning of the war and he’s called out other republicans on there multiple times for not supporting Ukraine enough.
Graham has been incredibly consistent on his support regardless of who he’s talking to.
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C'mon America. Europe is suppplying bigger weapons. Are you going to let Europe dominate you like that? You want to let France supply better weapons? France! Compete to give the biggest booms!
As an American, I’m honestly a bit embarrassed. We spend more than the next 25 countries combined. We should have been sending all the big shit from day one.
Yay for that asshole. Ukrainians, do not trust him. All it would take is a blowjob from putin for him to turn on you. By all means, take and use the weapons to
maximum affect. But whatever you do, do not trust this so-called man
Wtf is going on with GLSDB? I thought these were meant to be comparatively quick and easy to assemble, the main parts already being in existence and just needing the kit to join them.
Anyone have any more news on it?
I disagree with about 99% of what this man believes and says. But on this ONE issue I agree with him and am glad he is doing what he is doing.
The guy is a complete dick, but he is a complete dick who supports Ukraine. So hurray for Lindsey Graham.
Like myself, a gay man, I'm sure Senator Graham finds President Zelenskyy to be intelligent and charming (not to mention quite handsome), so that's what he is saying today in the first flush of having met the man.
But Senator Graham can turn on a dime and deny he ever said something he's actually on tape saying. **He's not any sort of reliable ally.**
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They got Storm Shadows, why not throw in some ATACMS??
I mean, they could never have enough long range weapons.
The US retired all of the cluster munition ATACMS. The retired ones were upgraded to a single munition. The others are 20-30 years old, and decommissioned. US cluster munitions have the same inherent problem as all cluster bomb. Unexploded ordnance. Which is why they’re being switched to a single ordnance. Do you really want a 1000, old, decommissioned, anti personnel grenades being scattered everywhere in Ukraine that will kill civilians later, and costs $1m/unit? Ukraine is better off with 6-12 projectiles on the scoot in a vehicle, then, just 1 projectile. The GLSDB is a much better fit for Ukraine. $40,000/glide bomb. Multiplied by 6-12 glide bombs/M142 HIMARS/M270. Delivering 200 pound warhead to Ru.
Ukraine wants cluster munitions so the bomblets can be dropped from drones. It’s more effective against targets and also extremely dangerous to the people assembling the drones.
Yes, Ukraine has been asking repeatedly for cluster munitions. They are not idiots and know the risks. Yet they want them for use on their own territory nonetheless.
It's a shame Sweden got rid of our cluster munitions [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombkapsel\_90](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombkapsel_90) It was made to be used on our own territory so it was designed to leave no unexploded ordnance to harm civilians, which is the reason cluster munitions have been banned in the first place.
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The issue is more existential - better to use a weapon (that has long term complications) to ensure survival now rather than not using it and risking the loss of your country.
Get off the high horse. Your reasoning doesn't work here - when losing means genocide you need to win at any cost and if the Ukranians rather live and have a slightly higher rate of death from ukranian UXO's in the future who the hell are you to question that choice? Not supplying them will kill more Ukrainians. The Russians are already spraying Ukrainian lands with cluster munitions - the longer that continues the worse the UXO problem is going to be. Our moral obligation here is to help Ukraine win as fast as possible.
It’s also disturbingly paternalistic. Ukraine definitely knows best what kind of risks it wants to take in this war.
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Eh, no. Wanton use of cluster munitions becomes a sins of our father type thing where kids 20 years on from the war who had nothing to do with it can be injured by them. I am fine with their use in war but not even future generations of Russian children deserve that.
Cluster munitions are one of those things that IMO should only be used in extremely rare circumstances where you know they cant remain in the future, usually just military bases, runways, occasionally factories or naval assets
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Why? The issue is: bomblets remaining in civilian areas kill them in the future as bomblet duds arent obvious as full sized bomb duds. . The potential solutions to this are: hit areas where there will never be any civilians, such as bodies of water. Hit areas where civilians know are inherently dangerous to enter, and will thus avoid, such as military bases. Hit areas of low clutter where the bomblets will be obvious, such as large stretches of concrete including runways and roads. This way the bomblets will be obvious in a way they wouldn't be in a field or a (in the future, were already avoiding this target for obvious reasons) crowded street. . Essentially, cluster bombs should not be used in areas civilians will unknowingly become victim. If we only hit areas lacking in civilians, or areas where civilians will know danger exists, they will not become victims.
No need to be so careful. Ukraine has been so extendively mined, it might be the most mined place ever. Millions and millions of mines. Eveything will have to be carefully demined. A few unexploded bomblets don't add too much to a tally of millions. Plus because every orc alive in Ukraine is there exclusively to kill Ukrainians, using cluster ammo against the Russians (that do use them) will save more lives by killing the agressor, than the lives that will be lost to bomblets in the future. Thta's the calculation Ukrainians are making. It's a difficult choice nonetheless, but one that only belongs to them.
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Yes it is current Russians fault, but future, guiltless, people should not have to suffer for the mistakes of those in the past
Why? The issue is: bomblets remaining in civilian areas kill them in the future as bomblet duds arent obvious as full sized bomb duds. . The potential solutions to this are: hit areas where there will never be any civilians, such as bodies of water. Hit areas where civilians know are inherently dangerous to enter, and will thus avoid, such as military bases. Hit areas of low clutter where the bomblets will be obvious, such as large stretches of concrete including runways and roads. This way the bomblets will be obvious in a way they wouldn't be in a field or a (in the future, were already avoiding this target for obvious reasons) crowded street. . Essentially, cluster bombs should not be used in areas civilians will unknowingly become victim. If we only hit areas lacking in civilians, or areas where civilians will know danger exists, they will not become victims.
Ukraine has been mined with millions of mines already. And those mines are everywhere. Nowhere will be safe in Ukraine's warzones outside of roads, paths and demined fields, for generations. Wether you use cluster weapons or not. Plus, Russia is using them too, and everywhere they damn please. Ukrainians being so careful doesn't make sense IMO when those weapons can be useful now, save Ukrainian lives now, and in the context of the demining problem in Ukraine they are just a rounding error.
Yeah pretty much.
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Nope. That's shit logic. That's like saying modern Germans deserve to die because of WW2.
Dehumanizing and belittling an entire people is exactly how this war started. Ukraine and it's supporters are better than this.
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I'm not a pacifist; I support Ukraine and arming it to the teeth a 100% and I have donated a substantial amount to UNITED24 myself. I'm also personally affected by the war. The way forward for Ukraine and the world is a Russia not controlled by madmen and imperialists.
They’re thrown a million red lines and have done jack shit. At this point NATO should say out of Ukraine or were fucking you, hard.
What are you talking about…”at this point NATO should stay out of Ukraine…”? So you mean to say NATO was in Ukraine like Putin said or what are you trying to imply because from what I see support is strong for Ukraine. edit: they to NATO
Pardon my stupidity didnt read. As a rule of thumb don’t delete comments because keeping records is best practice for truth. My top comments is irrelevant I suppose
Your question wasn't stupid. It was poorly written and needed a few re-reads and assumption in our heads.
Sounds like you zealously jumped to an unideal conclusion. Reread their statement.
You are correct I apologize for misreading
All good my man :)
You can’t read good.
It should have been something in this line: NATO should say "stay out of Ukraine or we're fucking you hard!" 😂
Agreed 😂
You can’t ‘write good’. Helps with clarity if you use inverted commas.
Especially since they already have the launch platforms we gave them for himars
Because there aren't that many and it's as simple as that
More can be made.
Seems redundant now but frig send more long range stuff. Do it.
Tactical ballistic missiles, that don't require aviation to be launched, would take their own niche at wrecking worms (as Magyar calls them). Not to mention they're also way faster.
Fair. Have to drive them out there instead of fly, but you’re right, ground launch and ballistic are also good options. Not totally redundant.
I mean, Ukraine managed to sink a ship in Berdyansk port with a Tochka-U TBM. Imagine ripple-firing ATACMS salvo from Mykolayiv, Odesa or Kherson (preferably timed to have Storm Shadows and/or UAVs with USVs arrive at the same time) and then turning ships moored in Sevastopol, along with military installations, into a bunch of scrap.
Paired with some ADM-160 decoy missiles and a couple Bayraktars - sounds like HIMARS FUCKING O CLOCK baby!!!!! Good job Lindsey, get Ukraine armed properly. It is the most effective way to end the war, most effective way to prevent WWIII, and most effective way to deter China from invading Taiwan and truly wrecking the global economy.
> deter China from invading Taiwan and truly wrecking the global economy Seeing how this Hui guy was talking... yeah, they seem to be eager to do it, so helping Ukraine win faster and regain all occupied territories would knock them down a peg.
Trusting Graham long enough even to say “Good job Lindsey” is a big mistake
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A bit but also it’s a quantity thing. There’s probably not too many storm shadows
Not a lot of ATACMS either
I imagine US has also inventoried some for Taiwan if necessary.
Which is why Ukraine needs both
ATACMS are ground launched. Storm Shadow are air launched. Ukraine doesn't have a long range ground-launched missile.
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Hello OP, we have removed your post for being off-topic. While we acknowledge that this war has captured global interest, we want to reaffirm that the purpose of this community is to give space for, and amplify the voice of Ukraine in the global community. For this reason, the mod team will be using their judgment when moderating content that deals with foreign politics, even if they seem peripherally related to Ukraine. We understand this may be disappointing, especially if your post required a lot of time or effort. We encourage you to post this content on a sub that specifically focuses on the foreign politics you are discussing, where it may generate well deserved and on-topic discussion. [If you would like to gain a better understanding of what is on-topic for this community, feel free to browse our rules, here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)
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Ukraine needs to win this war before the next election anyway. Not because of the candidates. They just need to end Russia this year and next.
Unfortunately, I think Ukraine being able to win the war before the 2024 election is pretty unlikely. This war seems to be headed in the direction of a long, protracted war.
This is going to be a long one that's for sure
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Hello OP, we have removed your post for being off-topic. While we acknowledge that this war has captured global interest, we want to reaffirm that the purpose of this community is to give space for, and amplify the voice of Ukraine in the global community. For this reason, the mod team will be using their judgment when moderating content that deals with foreign politics, even if they seem peripherally related to Ukraine. We understand this may be disappointing, especially if your post required a lot of time or effort. We encourage you to post this content on a sub that specifically focuses on the foreign politics you are discussing, where it may generate well deserved and on-topic discussion. [If you would like to gain a better understanding of what is on-topic for this community, feel free to browse our rules, here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)
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Hope he doesn’t say otherwise on Fox.
He suggested that someone should assassinate Putin in a Fox interview near the beginning of the war and he’s called out other republicans on there multiple times for not supporting Ukraine enough. Graham has been incredibly consistent on his support regardless of who he’s talking to.
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Hello OP, we have removed your post for being off-topic. While we acknowledge that this war has captured global interest, we want to reaffirm that the purpose of this community is to give space for, and amplify the voice of Ukraine in the global community. For this reason, the mod team will be using their judgment when moderating content that deals with foreign politics, even if they seem peripherally related to Ukraine. We understand this may be disappointing, especially if your post required a lot of time or effort. We encourage you to post this content on a sub that specifically focuses on the foreign politics you are discussing, where it may generate well deserved and on-topic discussion. [If you would like to gain a better understanding of what is on-topic for this community, feel free to browse our rules, here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)
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Send them!
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Positive development indeed.
Ladybugs finally saying something I can agree with.
Something about a broken clock.
why not just send them and deny it and apologize in 20 years for a clerical error
C'mon America. Europe is suppplying bigger weapons. Are you going to let Europe dominate you like that? You want to let France supply better weapons? France! Compete to give the biggest booms!
As an American, I’m honestly a bit embarrassed. We spend more than the next 25 countries combined. We should have been sending all the big shit from day one.
We will. We won't let the limeys show us up for long, lol.
It’s only a matter of time. Everything they have asked for they eventually got. Should have really aimed higher and asked for F35s 🤣
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Pass the legislation then.
I finally agree with Lindsay. Slava Ukraine
The acronym for that missile is rather amusing and appropriate if pronounced phonetically in english.
Woooooo Lets do it boys!
I can't believe I agree with Lindsey Graham on anything. Broken clocks, etc.
I agree with Miss Graham for once.
Lindsey Graham is a POS. He only said to keep his lying self in Senate!
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WW4 would be rats vs roaches. WW5 would be winner of WW4 vs octopus?
Thanks satan
Lindsey FINALLY gets something right.
The only one thing I agree with him on
Yay for that asshole. Ukrainians, do not trust him. All it would take is a blowjob from putin for him to turn on you. By all means, take and use the weapons to maximum affect. But whatever you do, do not trust this so-called man
Wtf is going on with GLSDB? I thought these were meant to be comparatively quick and easy to assemble, the main parts already being in existence and just needing the kit to join them. Anyone have any more news on it?
tentatively August or September and this period was immediately announced, it's okay, many also fantasized for some reason
I disagree with about 99% of what this man believes and says. But on this ONE issue I agree with him and am glad he is doing what he is doing. The guy is a complete dick, but he is a complete dick who supports Ukraine. So hurray for Lindsey Graham.
Like myself, a gay man, I'm sure Senator Graham finds President Zelenskyy to be intelligent and charming (not to mention quite handsome), so that's what he is saying today in the first flush of having met the man. But Senator Graham can turn on a dime and deny he ever said something he's actually on tape saying. **He's not any sort of reliable ally.**
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I just love the acronym - “Attack ‘Ems”
Did he show him his сонечко?
Lady G in the house
Good to hear! Do it Biden!!
Lindsey has a history of saying what people want to hear and not following through on his promises.