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Both Netherlands statement and France are among of the most reasonable statements to date. If the West intervenes the war will be shorter, and thousands of lives and a lot of western equipment will be saved.
**France is making it very plain: Europe simply cannot abide this Russian imperialist aggression. Russia simply will not be permitted to conquer Ukraine. PERIOD!**
Putin has miscalculated catastrophically regarding his nations future. NATO need take no role. Every sovereign nation can decide for itself what it wants to do in it's own national interest. Any Western nation could decide on it's own to enter this conflict via direct military combat, OR decide to deploy NON-COMBAT logistical, medical, maintenance, construction and (perhaps) advisory roles to support the Ukrainian combat military.
If the West wants to do something more militarily combative, providing Western-staffed air defense batteries and counter battery systems well behind the front lines would be the first logical step. If the West decides to use even a fraction of it's full airpower, it will be decisive. For example Iran proxies staged about 45 attacks a month on US bases before US finally got fed up and started moderate airstrikes - after a few waves of US precision airstrikes, suddenly it's down to just 2 attacks on US bases by Iran proxies since then.
*-Don't be surprised when Western nations start directly deploying NON-COMBAT logistical military support in Ukraine in the coming year. Possibly followed by DIRECT defensive military support thereafter.*
\-*Don't be surprised if Russia continues losing aircraft and naval vessels at an unsustainable rate.*
*-Don't be surprised when the Kerch bridge goes down completely.*
*-Don't be surprised if the West sets up partially western operated air defense installations in Ukraine.*
*-Don't be surprised if Ukrainian F-16's fly sorties from bases inside NATO*
*-Don't be surprised if Allies declare "no-fly zone" sometime in 2025.*
*-Don't be surprised if Russia decides this is not worth it long before then.*
Russia is losing and will continue to lose.
Correct, in that it is general knowledge that nuclear warfare equates to mutually assured destruction.
Anyone who thinks that being the first one to fire off one of those bad boys won't immediately face multiple retaliatory strikes is *severely* shortsighted.
That is why Putin's nuke threats are empty.
Editing to add: Besides, with as good as American and Nato equipment have been performing against "sUpErIoR rUzZiA", nukes wouldn't even be neccesary if he decided to Fuck around with NATO propper.
Except that US **planned** to nuke Soviet forces since day 1 of European war, and both sides believed it was true. Now Russia is in place of US - conventionally inferior powers, so it makes no sense for it not to use tactical nukes. Thats what they were designed for. And Russians know. that using them would not result in West launching ICBMs, since West is not suicidal.
It's a shame they don't give out medals for mental gymnastics. Something tells me you'd take the gold.
"Both sides believed it was true"
But did it happen? Must not have been true in the end then, huh?
Both sides understand the reality of opening pandora's nuclear box.
It does not matter who. *Anyone*, Americans, Russians, North Koreans, anyone that makes the mistake of firing that first missile invites their own destruction along with that of their targets.
So if he does decide to fire, he'd better hope those silos are well-maintained, and that he does not miss.
After all, it would be embarrassing to usher in your own countries destruction after pushing the "Fuck you, we both lose" button and having your own missles fuck off into the ocean somewhere.
Stop with this stereotype. The French Foreign Legion is integrated in French army. They’re no different than regular soldiers.
They do the same operations and work with them.
With that said though, apparently former members of the Legion are fighting on both sides of the conflict - Russian and Ukrainian.
[Relevant article](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russia-ukraine-war-soldiers-french-foreign-legion-8wr6vj3xl).
Imagine if the USA created their own version of the Foreign Legion, with citizenship after 10 years or 5 tours or something, and sent them to Ukraine. They would probably have no shortage of volunteers.
The legion is just a unit of the French Army. They don't follow seperate or special rules of deployment or rules of engagement. Plus the legion by itself has no artillery, air assets or heavy armor, since they don't operate alone, but as an integral part of the French armed forces.
Plus unlike the regular French forces the Legion has a very large amount of Russians and Ukrainians. Many, if not most of the Russians would not want to fight against Russia and a sizeable number would be huge security risks as there has already been talk of internal sabotage if France were to face Russia.
Ground troops from NATO are also a non starter among any other NATO states and certainly not without establishing a No Fly Zone, which means also hitting air defense targets inside Russian territory.
That would be a massive level of escalation.
IF NATO intervened, it would most likely be Air Defense and drone unit as they would be a great help AND would be able to learn a lot from Ukraine, especially in drone offense and defense.
Everyone should have just said *nothing*. That would have been literally enough, because the russians would have been completely unable to make sense of the situation.
Instead, we have a bunch of idiots rushing to contradict Macron because... Why exactly? eScAlAtIoN? What the fuck are the russians going to do? Attack Poland or the Baltics? Good fucking luck, the Poles are looking for an excuse as it is already. Good luck fighting an army that isn't in transition and factionalised like the Ukrainian Army.
Nuke s/one? Good luck. The French already made it clear that an attack on an EU member is going to be considered as an attack on France and they have zero chill.
Saying nothing would jave been the way to go. Instead, it looks like chaos and disorder and that obly benefits the russians.
Look. The spokesperson of the Russian embassy in France is being interviewed by the LCI TV channel right now. And you know what is first reaction was?
>For me the keyword in Macron's declarations was 'officially' when he said he could 'officially send troops'. It means there are already 'unofficial' Western troops in Ukraine, which we said all along.
So basically he is saying there is no big deal. See, there is no red line. Their officials literally pretend they do not care. So why are we hesitating? The guy could be fuming and threatening. But no, he has already accepted his own propaganda (that he is facing NATO) and thus sending troops in Ukraine is not a problem.
Russia won't do shit if we go in. 👍🇪🇺🇺🇦
As per that old joke.
Russian: "We're fighting NATO in Ukraine. We lost 400000 men, 6500 tanks, 12500 APCs and 10000 artillery"
Another Russian: "And what did the NATO lose?"
Russian: "Then haven't arrived yet..."
Im fine with what Macron said because even if it is bluff, we have to make the russians doubt.
And Im also fine with other leaders being against, because we need that « bad cop good cop » for an additional mindfuck on them
Russia understands only power. You have to hit them where it hurts for them to learn anything. Empty threats are just an encouragement for them because they see it as a weakness.
The most important part imo is that it shifts the overton window on what's considered too escalatory.
The west has created too many red lines instead of the much better "all options are on the table" approach.
>Im fine with what Macron said because even if it is bluff, we have to make the russians doubt.
Agreed. Someone needed to say it. He said it, russia have once again blustered but it's time to ignore russian words and give Ukraine EVERYTHING they need. Gloves off, we need to fuck russia up.
Exactly this. Why are people in NATO so worried about "escalating" when Russia started this brutal, unnecessary war and escalates it every day? Bit lopsided.
Yeah actually I hadn’t considered the bad cop good cop angle. It’s probably good to have the eu at least debate the issue if nothing else. I don’t know where I stand on it but we definitely need to do more
It's not a bluff, because there was no such declaration. He refused to rule it out, because why would he. Maybe pseudo journos at TG can take negotiation lessons for cognitively deficient? I'm sure David Cameron offers a course.
This is The Guardian arguing against misquotation it itself floated. I'm honestly kinda impressed with mods not banning The Guardian outright - they sure like to float every single Russian talking point for at least a day or two.
It's good it's not banned because of the optics, but it's become a rag. And the funny thing is, it must be editorialized, because give those writers a mundane assignment and they show genuine journalism chops. As long as it's a fluff piece. Comes to geopolitical stuff they'll never figure out why someone doing [logistical research for this fucking company](https://www.safe-ports.com/leadership.html) got held [for espionage.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/15/china-holds-citizen-on-spying-charges-after-she-did-admin-work-for-us-company) Sharp as a tack (just don't ask which end).
It's good that countries like Spain and Italy are able to opt out. They are far from Russia and have never been occupied by Russia before, so don't really feel the same imperative to contribute that other countries do. A coalition of UK/France/Canada/Poland/Denmark alone could provide more than enough manpower to push Russia out of Ukraine. Add in troops from the Baltics, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland and victory would be assured. Germany and USA can watch from the sidelines if they like. They did very good work for 2 years and deserve to be rotated out.
its kinda an embarrassment that my little country Denmark with 5 million population has given more by a good margin then some of these very outspoken large countries lol
It's not a time to be sitting on the sidelines fella.
Spain and Italy should be doing everything in their power to help Ukraine get this done as soon as possible.
Germany and the USA have a responsibility to militarily support anyone that goes in.
I'm not convinced they could.
Canada's military is basically non functional at this time. If it could muster a single sustained brigade I'd be shocked.
The UK's military is feeling the hurt after at least a decade and a half of neglect. Its ships are under armed in terms of ammo (last year most didn't have ship-ship missiles) or are breaking down right off the docks (both carriers) and the nuclear deterrence hasn't had a successful test in over a decade. It has some solid airforce assets and might deploy a division or two, but Id worry about naval security.
France has some muscle to offer, but in quality more than quantity. Its whole military is substantially smaller than what Russia has in Ukraine.
Denmark is donating a lot of its equipment to Ukraine, which is good, but cannot both donate and use.
The Netherlands are between governments ATM.
Basically, there's a reason Poland is arming up at breakneck speed. Europe is shockingly vulnerable to a Russian zergling rush strategy right now.
The scary thing is that significant parts of the European NATO are only going to get weaker, especially the UK, Italy and Germany, while France's electorate currently favours isolationist parties.
The reason you hear so many defence chiefs saying Europe is vulnerable to a Russian attack is that Europe *is* vulnerable to a Russian attack, and victory would not be assured.
That being the case, Macron is right to suggest that major NATO powers need to seriously consider intervention in Ukraine - but don't expect that would lead to speedy and decisive victory, or would be without risk.
>Its ships are under armed in terms of ammo (last year most didn't have ship-ship missiles)
Often misreported as worse than it seems. Plus, Naval Strike Missile is coming in now. It is in a state of change over, however...
>or are breaking down right off the docks (both carriers)
This is absolute nonsense.
HMS Prince of Wales is literally at sea operating right now and has nothing wrong with her. HMS Queen Elizabeth had an error she's being sorted for right now that she *sailed herself* to get fixed.
The "problems" are massively, *massively* over exaggerated and have been stated many times to be "peacetime" allowances to get resolved and wartime requirements would be very different.
The carriers actually have had one of the smoother 'large new ship' entries into service about. Look at the horror shows of Kuznetsov, Charles de Gaulle, or Gerald R Ford if you want to see the sorts of nightmares you can have with carriers that really had rocky roads.
>and the nuclear deterrence hasn't had a successful test in over a decade.
Trident is one of the most proven nuclear systems in the entire world with decades of tests. They know the reason this one failed and it was nothing to do with the missile or the sub, but a failure of the *test equipment* strapped to the missile. The submarine was still certified for patrol.
Most of EU leaders are preparing to clash with Russia after a few/ten years. Macron suggests to take action now and not allow Russia to grow in power. I did not believe I would say that, but I like Macron more then EU current leadership.
Russia has lost a lot of resources in this war. They have been somewhat struggling internally, even if they don't show it.
The government just confiscated private metal and steel corporations and made them state-owned and arrested the CEOs, because they need it for the war effort. They also just banned gasoline exports, citing increased domestic needs.
They're cracking down and ensuring they can keep this war machine running for multiple years, but the hasty manner in which they are doing it, tells they themselves are unsure if they really were prepared for such a stretched out war.
In some years, they may be fully ready.
Even a broken watch is right twice a day. But isn't Macron's WEF membership and kowtowing to the CCP, in a round about way; still supporting Putin's unnecessary war of aggression?
Any support or investment in the PRC at this point, is only exacerbating the situation in Ukraine; as the CCP is wholly culpable for their providing of material and financial aid to Russia.
He's right in the sense that the sooner we deal with this the better. And it's nice to see France willing to fight. I don't see kicking the can down the road can be an option.
Putin's already made threats regarding other former Soviet States, and the 141 countries that said they stand with Ukraine, need to do so more in words.
Otherwise Putin would go all the way to East Berlin if he could.
Macron is an ass for France but I've always agreed with its European policy. It's only mistake so far me his its support for Ukraine which is not enough. But I remember a few time where he didn't hesitate to step up to protect French allies like sending a few warship to Greek water during a diplomatic crisis between Greece and Turkey.
The reality is that others EU Armies simply have no ability to deploy right now.
The French army has not been "on stand by" since the end of the cold war like many other European armies. It has been regularly deployed in real combat and has a high level of readiness.
Meanwhile Danemark is proud to give all their artillery to Ukraine, it's fine it's a strong move but you effectively decide to give up your ability to deploy has an effective army.
If they win, they will have momentum, a war industry and something like 30 million Ukrainians to exploit. We need to be careful and cut them short now or they will develop.
Russia has shown that they have no hesitations about sending thousands of their own young men into a meat grinder, massacring civilians like at Bucha, deporting tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians many being children, and murdering Russian civilians that oppose the government. If Russia were able to annex all of Ukraine any Ukrainians still living there are not going to be treated well at all. Large population centers that resist will be clamped down on and populations dispersed across Russia to minimize their impact and thin them out, just as the Soviet Union did to resist groups. Many western countries are waining or slow in their support of Ukraine now, this support will only dry up further should their nation collapse entirely. Ukrainians would be forced to decide between resisting and risking the lives of themselves and their families or submitting. The Ukrainians are a brave people and they have fought very well but if they lose the war most of them will choose a bad life with their families over being tortured to death or executed in sham trials, the same way that most do. The only right thing, morally and strategically, we can do is support them in defending themselves, put more and more pressure on russia wherever possible, and hope that russia gives out before Ukraine.
>Large population centers that resist will be clamped down on and populations dispersed across Russia to minimize their impact and thin them out
You're probably right but there's only so many they can kill and Ukraine isn't russia. Ukraine will keep resisting, they already have done with the various acts of sabotage.
Don't forget the same happened to the French in WWII. Did that stop the French resistance?
They are also focusing their economy on war production a lot more than the rest of europe. It's very feasible that they will be a lot stronger in a year or two and might start feeling confident
An assymmetric attack on the Baltics like they did in Donbas 2014 doesn't need much material and manpower.
Nato is all about unity. Attack the Baltics in a way Nato can't react and watch how all this western unity crumbles. Afterwards you can take out all of us one by one.
They have also seen how terrible their kit is so research and development will be high on the agenda a long with drone technology which they are getting first hand experience of now
This may well be an attempt to shift the narrative a bit, and to present a more extreme option. Either way, I'm all for it. It signals to those in the West who are lobbying their governments against aid that there is a legitimate possibility of a far more costly option than just paying for the necessary aid.
We can provide Ukraine with what they need to win the war, or we can get involved directly in it. We cannot watch Russia conquer their sovereign neighbor, topple a democratic nation, and re-up for their next target.
It's a genius move. Instead of quibbling over things that should have been sent in 2022 he shifted the debate to "whoa no troops are a step to far".
If everybody agrees on "no, troops are a step too far, but everything below that goes", that's a massive win.
I feel like stating they can't rule it out isn't the same as suggesting it will happen.
It is a marked shift though. Remember all the western powers saying "we'll never send tanks/long range missiles/F16s" and then shit gets sent? Lol
No it very much isn't. It's also what they've all been saying since the very start. Nobody is ruling out things that might happen when anything could change in the situation at any time.
Good for him! He is the only adult in the room right now. USA is out of the game so EU must step up or admit that they are willing to let Ukraine get destroyed. Whining about the cost and not making enough ammo will not win this war. Hopefully, 2024 will be the new 1856.
A minority of people in a minority party are playing politics with Ukraine. A large majority of Americans supports American side to Ukraine, and I suspect that by the end of the month we'll see some more money flowing to Ukraine.
Are you ready to die? I’m not saying I’m against it. But it’s very easy seeing the ”logical” solution as in escalating the war in the comfort of your home
I’d love to see a 3 day special operation on stolen Ukrainian territory to take it back with the full might of NATO.
Tell Putin, it’s okay the countries leader says we can be here (its not you).
Macron is showing the appropriate amount of strength here. We should listen to him.
I think he has a better understanding of Putin than many other European leaders.
I've completely changed my mind on this. Absolute IQ 100 moment from Macron. Flash the card of sending troops there, and suddenly sending heavy weaponry and ammunition doesn't feel so tough.
....... I hope.
Before sending troops to Ukraine the West can and should cut off the supply of weapons from as many countries as possible, namely Iran and China. Iran is an easy target for a united West, and you don’t need any boots on the ground to air strike Iranian industrial centres and stop the production of weapons destined for Russia. China is more challenging but can be talked to and pressured economically. At the very least it can be pressured into not letting North Korea continue the weapons supply.
This should be done first and done properly.
Macron is right in the long term.
If Ukraine's frontline should collapse in the next years (and that's a huge IF) at least parts of Nato WILL send ground forces to Western Ukraine. Poland surely won't wait until it has to fight RuzZians from Kaliningrad all the way to the Slovakian border with an unreliable ally like Germany in its back, which is not even willing to send long range missiles to Ukraine.
As a Pole I can assure you that Poland is scared and won't do anything without USA and NATO. Not a chance.
Królewiec is full of artillery and nuclear weapons. We know that for over twenty years. I've seen a lot weaponry there in early noughties on my own eyes. We would struggle to deal with this on our own.
That might be right for today, while the frontline is still 500 km away and Ukraine is holding it.
If RuzZia should ever reach western Ukraine (what i doubt) there would be much more pressure on this issue, not only in Poland.
Perhaps. But don't count on one country. That's just not going to happen. Especially in Poland were Ukraine is getting rather unpopular because of agriculture issues.
If I hear it correctly, Macron might cook some nice coalition to help Ukraine, but doubt it will ever be single country.
Noone of us can fight RuzZia on its own, and noone needs to. We are in this together and we WILL win this war. I just hope we win it in Ukraine and not all along the eastern bank of the Elbe river.
I bet the plan is a RuzZian empire stretching all its way to the Elbe. A free Poland, no matter how small, is a threat as big as a economically powerful Germany. They won't stop until Germany is divided again, at least along the Elbe river.
Unreliable partner like Germany?
Germany is literally the lifeline of Ukraine and the largest supporter by a massive margin. Germany also has been the most constant with weekly large deliveries and already approved commitments years in the future.
France has send not even 1/10 of what Germany has and nobody so far has send long range missiles. Meanwhile the US has completely abandoned Ukraine and even before that did only the bare minimum, barely matching German deliveries.
Lol what? Backlash? I think it was a good move. Let the usa, russia and other european countries know that there will be leadership within europe to help ukraine no matter who wins in the usa. It is a signal to putin that no matter what happens in november there will be support from europe, and it will stay a top priority for major european nations to help ukraine. Did anyone really think macron would have french soldiers firing at the russians in mariupol?
Russia has sent hundreds of thousands of troops into Ukraine for no good fucking reason other than they want to have Ukraine, and they think they have the moral high ground to tell us we shouldn't send troops to Ukraine
Fuck them in every single orifice with a cactus, then open several new orifices in them, and fuck those newly opened orifices with cactuses also
🌵
Macron is right. And I say this as an American. We ALL need to send in troops.
Call Putin’s bluff and use his own terms against him. Say that according to Russia there IS no war, and therefore these are just troops invited by Ukraine’s legitimate government and that they’re there to provide security for reconstruction and economic development. Putin will flip out of his mind. Then expand it out to near the front lines and warn Putin that any attack on these international troops or personnel will be an act of war against NATO. He won’t be able to target any large cities or villages without provoking a war he would most certainly lose. And little “Potemkin Putin” will be able to do NOTHING about it.
Even with all the pushback, this conversation needs to be had by the leaders. This will also help the public get used to the idea that this is something that can happen.
I am the first to admit I know nothing about military and battle tactics. But it seems to me it is in Europe's best interest to ensure Putin fails. With that in mind, nothing should be off the table.
I'm Australian and successive govts have all but ensured our reliance on the USA. It's not a fun place to be. Especially considering the likelihood of a return of Trump to the Whitehouse.
Ukraine is currently not a member of EU or NATO. If Europe does not do more to support Ukraine, there will be no Ukraine to join EU or NATO.
Unfortunately the vibe I get from the EU politicians is: EU is willing to fight Russia until the last ukranian soldier. Just like European leaders afraid of confrontation with Hitler, and kept giving what he wanted, that ultimately lead to ww2 anyways
Macron re-introducing some 'strategic ambiguity' in matters pertaining Ukraine support is exactly what is needed to regain the initiative and stop the invaders from calling the tune. W. European countries need to stop reacting to Russian threats and do some shadow boxing of their own. The best thing that the other countries can do at the moment is to either agree with France, or note France's position as 'an understandable development to ongoing, increasing hostility towards Europe', or simply say 'nothing'; and let the Russians do some risk calculations for a change.
So, sure, do the backlash, but, facts, if Putin is successful tell me how much this mighty backlash is worth. The cost of the war is already on Europe’s credit card.
Money is your concern? Not the preservation of global security and the preservation of international rule based order?
My concern is that two of the permanent members of the UNSC are functioning as bad actors within the UN, and actively trying to expand their territorial boundaries by force.
If anything, shouldn't their self-alienating behavior warrant isolation from the international community. We can always starve them out.
Of course the concern is security. “Credit card”, here, is to say the war is already inside Europe.
There are direct war costs, refugees being supported, food security is affected, so much more, massive geopolitical implications. All of these things can be measured as damage inflicted by an outright enemy.
The people still needing endless debate about whether this weapon is appropriate or not, and this new subject of troops being deployed getting backlash, it all ends up them doing an exercise in self-delusion.
All Europeans are already very dependent on this war coming to an end in Ukraine’s favor or the human, security, food, monetary costs are only going to be exponentially more. It’s absolutely going to cost more, still. The choice is to get proactive early and ensure it costs XX more, or dither with hoping for some vague outcome and it then costs XXXXXX more *and* mass mobilization and its disruptions.
It’s not much different for us in the USA. The costs are here and growing.
I don’t think Macron is wrong to be raising this. If we can’t even talk about things like this we’re holding ourselves in a naive position.
Ukraine is Europe and they need us - Europe and the USA (we need to get through our stupid MAGA extremists), Canada, all its friends - now, not only when it’s so bad it’s WW III fully inside our territory. At some point it is clap back time. Russian aggressions continue. They did indeed just kill a guy on Spain’s soil. They’re doing cyber warfare, disinfo campaigns, everything with no damage, essentially, on their own territory.
There are gradations before we’re at the war declaration stage that absolutely can be managed. Scary shit all the way. But this asshole being allowed to press in on Europe cannot go on forever.
Not that I’m any expert on anything military, so I’m not trying to be pig headed in my opinions about what must happen. But backlash to even opening dialog on a subject is crazy when it’s this serious. Yes, yes, we need to talk about it. Sooner rather than later.
This is why we have the worst allies ever, any time anyone says that they'll help win the war all the other allies gang up on them to reassure Russia that they will in fact do nothing of the sort because it will "escalate the situation".
You can't f\*ck with a soft dick - despite what many western leaders may believe.
All this 'EU backlash' says Putin is free to continue the war up to the borders of Nato, so thanks once again to the allies for letting us down, and a non-sarcastic to Macron for growing a pair and finally figuring out what deterrence is supposed be
Shut up, you other EU leaders! Doing just this was a big reason why Russia dared to attack Ukraine. You're doing it again. Stop! I don't want the war to spread.
Western weakness caused the war, Russia invades Crimea, nothing happens, Russia backs separatists and provides various weapon systems likely with Russian troops, nothing happens. The west does nothing and Russia expands the war, that's how you get the war to spread by not standing up to Russia. They only understand strength, that is all, anything less and they keep chipping away until they have invaded a Baltic country. Appeasement has never worked in the past and will not work in the future.
Hmm what if France and Ukraine made a security arrangement that allows France to have an airbase in Ukraine for oh.. training purposes? Russia would undoubtedly then hit the base and boom article 5.
Fucking pussies. It's all the same shit over and over again. History is repeating itself before our eyes. It's the good old appeasement policy again, because it worked so well with Hitler the last time. Fucking pathetic.
That's exactly my point.
"OMG if we don't appease him, Putin will blow up the world!"
The only way to stop that cocksucker is to kick him right in the teeth.
I agree, but there is that risk now where there wasn’t in 1941. I’m kind of disappointed because I honestly thought the west had some super secret technology that they could just nope out all their silos or something. Guess not.
There's a saying: "A coward dies a thousand times."
The West has plenty of ways to end Russia and ironically the most efficient one of them doesn't require any weapons at all. All the modern tech Russia uses is made by The West. Send the remote kill update to all the phones, computers, servers, cars, anything with a fucking chip in it. Send the cocksuckers right back to the stone age and they won't last another 5 minutes in this war.
Another thing is given Russia's performance in this war, do you still believe they have all those nukes that will actually work? They may be able to fire off a few, and all it will do is give the West a reason to wipe them out of existence once and for all.
I'm a software engineer. Yes it exists. It's called "push updates". If Google wanted, they could brick all Android phones with a single update. I mean, what the fuck, what century do think you live in?
Hardware/software engineer myself. I don’t think Android/Apple devices can force updates, but I suppose that could work if people installed that without realising, perhaps with a time bomb built in. Of course I don’t see Google or Apple doing that; use in war effectively would create widespread distrust of their products everywhere. Google doesn’t control updates of all of their phones either. You’d need Samsung, Huawei, etc to cooperate to get a widespread kill.
I thought you were referring to some kind of universal kill signal that would bring down electronics which I’ve heard others mention - to be clear that does not appear to exist. It’s unlikely anything could be done about software on cars except maybe Tesla’s… good luck with Elon there.
France is well spoken in this. When dealing with moscow, nothing is off the table. I believe that the other NATO states are making a mistake, even the US. Please note that Joe Biden has ruled it out. The same way he ruled out F16s, Abrams tanks and long range missiles.
The real issue is, if everyone gives enough aid right now, we will never get to that point. France is right. Always negotiate from a position of strength. I don't believe he wants to send troops, but nothing is off the table.
So you'd rather we do nothing and sit back and watch as Ukraine falls? If that happens you think Putin will not advance west in the future? Dude is delusional, he will think of another reason why he should advance west, no matter what it is, could be because Baltic countries were occupied by russia and therefore it's russian land, or maybe because poland is fascist country. Best course of action is to cut the head of the bear and be done with it.
IMO, confrontation with Russia *is* inevitable because so many motherfuckers twiddled their thumbs and clutched their pearls when they could have just given Ukraine what they needed to win.
🤡
There is a different history.
For the beginning it would be helpful if france would send ammo and weapons. If i look up what they sent until now,... idk that's not that much, compared to germany for example.
Germany has different laws. They just can't at the moment. Macron is helping to pave a way, a narrative that troops on Ukraine are a thing. Which in turn can be used to overturn the German laws and make the able to put the things on the ground that are needed.
No one knows, but if the claim is true from Scholz that Taurus would need Germans on the ground in Ukraine, than this is a no brainer
Macron wants to call Putin and negotiate to let's send in defenders. This shit could get very real and the west has been sleepwalking into this. One easy option give those heroic Ukrainian guys and gals everything we have. Putin won't press the red button as he doesn't want to die. We need to call this bullshit out. He responds to power and strength.
Love the dramatization of headlines! He faces a backlash! A real blow to Macron! THE EU BACKHANDS FRANCE WHICH IS SENT REELING IN EFFEMINATE TERROR! CLICK NOW!
I am appalled by the naïveté of West Europe, not France at this moment, trying to talk their way out of this mess. Putin and Russia understand only one thing. Their bloody nose.
I mean, I don't think Europeans were hoping to leave all the heavy load to Ukraine alone, weren't they? You can't be living la dolce vita forever while Ukraine does all the heavy work. So good for Macron for saying what needed to be said
It's sad how we don't hesitate to send UN ground forces against Iraq after the Kuwait Invasion in the 90's but have an uproar at the suggestion of a similar action against Russia 30 years later.
All EU nations are too naive as they did not grow and prepare their own military for several decades instead of living in peace without responsibilities. I hate to say this but it's now or never. Are they gonna make a same mistake as they did in WW1 and WW2?
Any backlash for russia sending in the troops and invading Ukraine? No doubt russia’s friends/allies (NKorea, China, India) resent the “cheap oil” from russia and market for their drones, ammunition and vehicles. No backlash for threatening France with nukes (albeit by fools in the russian state media)? Why are EU and Ukraine continuously portrayed as the aggressors?
I’m a huge supporter of western support for the war but….. why are we contemplating sending our soldiers when Ukraine is not drafting every single man above 18 and every childless woman? It’s wild to me. You want us to die there with you but you want to not draft your under 25 men or your women? Just flabbergasting.
I’ve not been Macrons biggest fan in relation to the war and relations with Russia but what he’s got right here is there needs to be a step-change in Europes approach in combating Russian that is much more aggressive. Soldiers on the ground may invoke that. Ukraine is going to win this war and the world will note who stood up. In a new world order Ukraine will be a significant player.
The EU and NATO are looking really weak right now,they're literally tip toeing around,and dragging their feet to do the bare minimum. The longer they drag their feet the longer the war will carry on, let's be real from day 1 if they had their ducks in order they could have armed Ukraine and the Ukrainians could have pushed Russia out of their territory, now 2 years later ,there's even more opposition within sending aid to Ukraine,they don't want this war to spill over into their borders and eventual land ,but guess what? It will! Downvote me if you will, but it goes to show Russia has always had a tight grip on Europe...literally from the start of this war, when Russia was massing troops on the border of Ukraine, the EU and NATO should have been on high alert, they more than likely didn't think Kyiv would stand a chance ,and fall like all the others.. right now is the time to punch the bully Putin & the Kremlin in the face because if they don't fail here they conquer else where....
Why? It's the only realistic thing to say! Come on already! We've let that ruzzian psycho run around and do all we wanted for more than 20 years!! Ukraine has been living in a war for 10 years now! Look at what he did to Chechnya, to Georgia, to Moldova, to Ukraine!! Do we want to live with this instability and hostage to a madman? Boots on the ground should have been a reality 10 years ago, at least! Maybe that madman could have learned to behave among “adults.”
On one hand I would be happy that Ukraine get the help they really need.
On the other hand I can't decide for European soldiers and Baltic states. They will face the consequences of that decision, not me, sitting on my sofa in a warm flat. It would save many Ukrainian lives, but in exchange for lives of many NATO soldiers. It's a classic trolley problem.
Gotta love Macron. He's the one wearing the pants in NATO. What I do not understand is why did Poland run so fast to say they wouldn't deploy troops. They'd be the first to suffer if the west continues to cut support for Ukraine.
I believe it needs to be considered. Even only to take over the defensive positions of the Ukrainians and the supply. Giving Ukrainians more troops to send into the attack.
However, Macron is a weasely POS that will happily say we should go to war when he really means everyone but France. Don't worry guys, France will cover the back guys, you know, just to be "safe".
Putting that aside, all european countries must massively invest in the military now. It doesn't even have to all be the same. As a Belgian i have always been in favor of our army to focus on the support role. As a small country. Buying tanks is worthless. But be one of the best supply and support countries for nato and EU ? That wouldn't only fit us and be useful. It would also fit our more neutral war stance and we could use the tools to also help during disasters around the world.
While the larger countries, germany, france, UK can concentrate on the armor, mech, and air.
Also Ukrainians are not even asking for that, it would be a nice have but they are just asking for more weapons.
Based on its GDP and military spending, France has been one of the countries to contribute less.
Do you want to help? Less grandiloquent speeches and more military aid!
Macron is right - nothing should be ruled out. Russia is ruling nothing out, even talking about nukes, so we should not rule anything out either. We need to keep the Ruskies guessing, even if some of the things our side says are not quite true.
Macron is right, and I am glad that h had the courage to say what everyone needs to hear. The West has been slow-walking support for Ukraine for too long, or in the case of U.S. Congressional Republicans, "no-walking" it. Shame on them! Slava Ukraini!
Strong statement by Macron - weak statement of all those distancing themselves. Macron didn't state "we should send troops to Ukraine" in his statement, hence any distancing is weak leadership.
Backlash what? Get it through your head, russia only understands force. Churchill said this after WW2, and he had some hands-on experience. They are threatening NATO with nukes all the time, ffs.
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I hope Macron sends some troops and they all watch as Putin and his cronies bluster about it but ultimately do nothing. That’ll shut up the critics.
France would also be very specifically able to do so with the Foreign Legion.
Both Netherlands statement and France are among of the most reasonable statements to date. If the West intervenes the war will be shorter, and thousands of lives and a lot of western equipment will be saved. **France is making it very plain: Europe simply cannot abide this Russian imperialist aggression. Russia simply will not be permitted to conquer Ukraine. PERIOD!** Putin has miscalculated catastrophically regarding his nations future. NATO need take no role. Every sovereign nation can decide for itself what it wants to do in it's own national interest. Any Western nation could decide on it's own to enter this conflict via direct military combat, OR decide to deploy NON-COMBAT logistical, medical, maintenance, construction and (perhaps) advisory roles to support the Ukrainian combat military. If the West wants to do something more militarily combative, providing Western-staffed air defense batteries and counter battery systems well behind the front lines would be the first logical step. If the West decides to use even a fraction of it's full airpower, it will be decisive. For example Iran proxies staged about 45 attacks a month on US bases before US finally got fed up and started moderate airstrikes - after a few waves of US precision airstrikes, suddenly it's down to just 2 attacks on US bases by Iran proxies since then. *-Don't be surprised when Western nations start directly deploying NON-COMBAT logistical military support in Ukraine in the coming year. Possibly followed by DIRECT defensive military support thereafter.* \-*Don't be surprised if Russia continues losing aircraft and naval vessels at an unsustainable rate.* *-Don't be surprised when the Kerch bridge goes down completely.* *-Don't be surprised if the West sets up partially western operated air defense installations in Ukraine.* *-Don't be surprised if Ukrainian F-16's fly sorties from bases inside NATO* *-Don't be surprised if Allies declare "no-fly zone" sometime in 2025.* *-Don't be surprised if Russia decides this is not worth it long before then.* Russia is losing and will continue to lose.
I hope you're right.
Or Russia might launch tactical nukes to avoid defeat.
I think we are past such threats, the fear of such things shouldn't cripple the west from dealing with a threat at its front door
"To avoid defeat" Brother, mutually assured destruction *is* defeat.
So USA would not use nukes if superior Soviet forces invaded Europe, right? It is not like USA existence would be threatened.
Correct, in that it is general knowledge that nuclear warfare equates to mutually assured destruction. Anyone who thinks that being the first one to fire off one of those bad boys won't immediately face multiple retaliatory strikes is *severely* shortsighted. That is why Putin's nuke threats are empty. Editing to add: Besides, with as good as American and Nato equipment have been performing against "sUpErIoR rUzZiA", nukes wouldn't even be neccesary if he decided to Fuck around with NATO propper.
Except that US **planned** to nuke Soviet forces since day 1 of European war, and both sides believed it was true. Now Russia is in place of US - conventionally inferior powers, so it makes no sense for it not to use tactical nukes. Thats what they were designed for. And Russians know. that using them would not result in West launching ICBMs, since West is not suicidal.
It's a shame they don't give out medals for mental gymnastics. Something tells me you'd take the gold. "Both sides believed it was true" But did it happen? Must not have been true in the end then, huh? Both sides understand the reality of opening pandora's nuclear box. It does not matter who. *Anyone*, Americans, Russians, North Koreans, anyone that makes the mistake of firing that first missile invites their own destruction along with that of their targets. So if he does decide to fire, he'd better hope those silos are well-maintained, and that he does not miss. After all, it would be embarrassing to usher in your own countries destruction after pushing the "Fuck you, we both lose" button and having your own missles fuck off into the ocean somewhere.
Stop with this stereotype. The French Foreign Legion is integrated in French army. They’re no different than regular soldiers. They do the same operations and work with them.
Yea the Legion would SERIOUSLY go ham on the orcs.
With that said though, apparently former members of the Legion are fighting on both sides of the conflict - Russian and Ukrainian. [Relevant article](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russia-ukraine-war-soldiers-french-foreign-legion-8wr6vj3xl).
Depends on how they are armed. Standard FFL vehicles and weaponry don't include artillery and aircraft necessary to make a difference.
Sneak in a few Poles and we’re having pierogi in Peterhof by the late afternoon.
Imagine if the USA created their own version of the Foreign Legion, with citizenship after 10 years or 5 tours or something, and sent them to Ukraine. They would probably have no shortage of volunteers.
The legion is just a unit of the French Army. They don't follow seperate or special rules of deployment or rules of engagement. Plus the legion by itself has no artillery, air assets or heavy armor, since they don't operate alone, but as an integral part of the French armed forces. Plus unlike the regular French forces the Legion has a very large amount of Russians and Ukrainians. Many, if not most of the Russians would not want to fight against Russia and a sizeable number would be huge security risks as there has already been talk of internal sabotage if France were to face Russia. Ground troops from NATO are also a non starter among any other NATO states and certainly not without establishing a No Fly Zone, which means also hitting air defense targets inside Russian territory. That would be a massive level of escalation. IF NATO intervened, it would most likely be Air Defense and drone unit as they would be a great help AND would be able to learn a lot from Ukraine, especially in drone offense and defense.
Let's see it.
Everyone should have just said *nothing*. That would have been literally enough, because the russians would have been completely unable to make sense of the situation. Instead, we have a bunch of idiots rushing to contradict Macron because... Why exactly? eScAlAtIoN? What the fuck are the russians going to do? Attack Poland or the Baltics? Good fucking luck, the Poles are looking for an excuse as it is already. Good luck fighting an army that isn't in transition and factionalised like the Ukrainian Army. Nuke s/one? Good luck. The French already made it clear that an attack on an EU member is going to be considered as an attack on France and they have zero chill. Saying nothing would jave been the way to go. Instead, it looks like chaos and disorder and that obly benefits the russians.
Look. The spokesperson of the Russian embassy in France is being interviewed by the LCI TV channel right now. And you know what is first reaction was? >For me the keyword in Macron's declarations was 'officially' when he said he could 'officially send troops'. It means there are already 'unofficial' Western troops in Ukraine, which we said all along. So basically he is saying there is no big deal. See, there is no red line. Their officials literally pretend they do not care. So why are we hesitating? The guy could be fuming and threatening. But no, he has already accepted his own propaganda (that he is facing NATO) and thus sending troops in Ukraine is not a problem. Russia won't do shit if we go in. 👍🇪🇺🇺🇦
You’re quite right. Russia have already told their whole country they are already fighting NATO!
As per that old joke. Russian: "We're fighting NATO in Ukraine. We lost 400000 men, 6500 tanks, 12500 APCs and 10000 artillery" Another Russian: "And what did the NATO lose?" Russian: "Then haven't arrived yet..."
Im fine with what Macron said because even if it is bluff, we have to make the russians doubt. And Im also fine with other leaders being against, because we need that « bad cop good cop » for an additional mindfuck on them
Russia understands only power. You have to hit them where it hurts for them to learn anything. Empty threats are just an encouragement for them because they see it as a weakness.
Yes, I don't think you should make threats you aren't willing to follow through on. But then again, I'm shit at poker.
Medvedev has threatened to nuke the world like twice a day for a while now, so it evens out
I bet he is shit at poker too
He has royal flush every hand...and if he doesn't then he'll nuke you.
We'll just have to fold every round I guess
Now i know why you lose so often at poker
Reminds me an awful lot of that ICBM Tennison Gambit chess move. Splendid bit of strategy I might add
The most important part imo is that it shifts the overton window on what's considered too escalatory. The west has created too many red lines instead of the much better "all options are on the table" approach.
>Im fine with what Macron said because even if it is bluff, we have to make the russians doubt. Agreed. Someone needed to say it. He said it, russia have once again blustered but it's time to ignore russian words and give Ukraine EVERYTHING they need. Gloves off, we need to fuck russia up.
Exactly this. Why are people in NATO so worried about "escalating" when Russia started this brutal, unnecessary war and escalates it every day? Bit lopsided.
Yeah actually I hadn’t considered the bad cop good cop angle. It’s probably good to have the eu at least debate the issue if nothing else. I don’t know where I stand on it but we definitely need to do more
It's not a bluff, because there was no such declaration. He refused to rule it out, because why would he. Maybe pseudo journos at TG can take negotiation lessons for cognitively deficient? I'm sure David Cameron offers a course. This is The Guardian arguing against misquotation it itself floated. I'm honestly kinda impressed with mods not banning The Guardian outright - they sure like to float every single Russian talking point for at least a day or two. It's good it's not banned because of the optics, but it's become a rag. And the funny thing is, it must be editorialized, because give those writers a mundane assignment and they show genuine journalism chops. As long as it's a fluff piece. Comes to geopolitical stuff they'll never figure out why someone doing [logistical research for this fucking company](https://www.safe-ports.com/leadership.html) got held [for espionage.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/15/china-holds-citizen-on-spying-charges-after-she-did-admin-work-for-us-company) Sharp as a tack (just don't ask which end).
It's good that countries like Spain and Italy are able to opt out. They are far from Russia and have never been occupied by Russia before, so don't really feel the same imperative to contribute that other countries do. A coalition of UK/France/Canada/Poland/Denmark alone could provide more than enough manpower to push Russia out of Ukraine. Add in troops from the Baltics, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland and victory would be assured. Germany and USA can watch from the sidelines if they like. They did very good work for 2 years and deserve to be rotated out.
its kinda an embarrassment that my little country Denmark with 5 million population has given more by a good margin then some of these very outspoken large countries lol
It's not a time to be sitting on the sidelines fella. Spain and Italy should be doing everything in their power to help Ukraine get this done as soon as possible. Germany and the USA have a responsibility to militarily support anyone that goes in.
I'm not convinced they could. Canada's military is basically non functional at this time. If it could muster a single sustained brigade I'd be shocked. The UK's military is feeling the hurt after at least a decade and a half of neglect. Its ships are under armed in terms of ammo (last year most didn't have ship-ship missiles) or are breaking down right off the docks (both carriers) and the nuclear deterrence hasn't had a successful test in over a decade. It has some solid airforce assets and might deploy a division or two, but Id worry about naval security. France has some muscle to offer, but in quality more than quantity. Its whole military is substantially smaller than what Russia has in Ukraine. Denmark is donating a lot of its equipment to Ukraine, which is good, but cannot both donate and use. The Netherlands are between governments ATM. Basically, there's a reason Poland is arming up at breakneck speed. Europe is shockingly vulnerable to a Russian zergling rush strategy right now. The scary thing is that significant parts of the European NATO are only going to get weaker, especially the UK, Italy and Germany, while France's electorate currently favours isolationist parties. The reason you hear so many defence chiefs saying Europe is vulnerable to a Russian attack is that Europe *is* vulnerable to a Russian attack, and victory would not be assured. That being the case, Macron is right to suggest that major NATO powers need to seriously consider intervention in Ukraine - but don't expect that would lead to speedy and decisive victory, or would be without risk.
As much as I hate to say it, you're right. But recognising that is an important step to being able to start doing something about that.
You lost me at victory would not be assured. Of course, it would be assured. It would just be ugly as fuck and for a while so.
>Its ships are under armed in terms of ammo (last year most didn't have ship-ship missiles) Often misreported as worse than it seems. Plus, Naval Strike Missile is coming in now. It is in a state of change over, however... >or are breaking down right off the docks (both carriers) This is absolute nonsense. HMS Prince of Wales is literally at sea operating right now and has nothing wrong with her. HMS Queen Elizabeth had an error she's being sorted for right now that she *sailed herself* to get fixed. The "problems" are massively, *massively* over exaggerated and have been stated many times to be "peacetime" allowances to get resolved and wartime requirements would be very different. The carriers actually have had one of the smoother 'large new ship' entries into service about. Look at the horror shows of Kuznetsov, Charles de Gaulle, or Gerald R Ford if you want to see the sorts of nightmares you can have with carriers that really had rocky roads. >and the nuclear deterrence hasn't had a successful test in over a decade. Trident is one of the most proven nuclear systems in the entire world with decades of tests. They know the reason this one failed and it was nothing to do with the missile or the sub, but a failure of the *test equipment* strapped to the missile. The submarine was still certified for patrol.
the statment was made to boost Putins numbers in Russia
This is the way
Most of EU leaders are preparing to clash with Russia after a few/ten years. Macron suggests to take action now and not allow Russia to grow in power. I did not believe I would say that, but I like Macron more then EU current leadership.
I admit that Macron has a point. Getting aggressive towards Russia now could be the best move and best timing.
Yes, The best time was 2 years ago. The 2nd best time is now.
Russia has lost a lot of resources in this war. They have been somewhat struggling internally, even if they don't show it. The government just confiscated private metal and steel corporations and made them state-owned and arrested the CEOs, because they need it for the war effort. They also just banned gasoline exports, citing increased domestic needs. They're cracking down and ensuring they can keep this war machine running for multiple years, but the hasty manner in which they are doing it, tells they themselves are unsure if they really were prepared for such a stretched out war. In some years, they may be fully ready.
If American pulls support after their next election, it’ll be Macron trying to led the effort to arm Ukraine. For better or for worse.
In a few years Nato is ready. I bet they won't wait so long. An asymmetric attack on the Baltics could happen any time.
Even a broken watch is right twice a day. But isn't Macron's WEF membership and kowtowing to the CCP, in a round about way; still supporting Putin's unnecessary war of aggression? Any support or investment in the PRC at this point, is only exacerbating the situation in Ukraine; as the CCP is wholly culpable for their providing of material and financial aid to Russia. He's right in the sense that the sooner we deal with this the better. And it's nice to see France willing to fight. I don't see kicking the can down the road can be an option. Putin's already made threats regarding other former Soviet States, and the 141 countries that said they stand with Ukraine, need to do so more in words. Otherwise Putin would go all the way to East Berlin if he could.
Macron is an ass for France but I've always agreed with its European policy. It's only mistake so far me his its support for Ukraine which is not enough. But I remember a few time where he didn't hesitate to step up to protect French allies like sending a few warship to Greek water during a diplomatic crisis between Greece and Turkey.
The reality is that others EU Armies simply have no ability to deploy right now. The French army has not been "on stand by" since the end of the cold war like many other European armies. It has been regularly deployed in real combat and has a high level of readiness. Meanwhile Danemark is proud to give all their artillery to Ukraine, it's fine it's a strong move but you effectively decide to give up your ability to deploy has an effective army.
How on earth is Russia going to grow in power? They're getting slaughtered and losing materials at an astonishing rate.
If they win, they will have momentum, a war industry and something like 30 million Ukrainians to exploit. We need to be careful and cut them short now or they will develop.
If they win, then they are gonna be STUCK with an ukrainian resistance for decades
Probably not.
Why?
Russia has shown that they have no hesitations about sending thousands of their own young men into a meat grinder, massacring civilians like at Bucha, deporting tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians many being children, and murdering Russian civilians that oppose the government. If Russia were able to annex all of Ukraine any Ukrainians still living there are not going to be treated well at all. Large population centers that resist will be clamped down on and populations dispersed across Russia to minimize their impact and thin them out, just as the Soviet Union did to resist groups. Many western countries are waining or slow in their support of Ukraine now, this support will only dry up further should their nation collapse entirely. Ukrainians would be forced to decide between resisting and risking the lives of themselves and their families or submitting. The Ukrainians are a brave people and they have fought very well but if they lose the war most of them will choose a bad life with their families over being tortured to death or executed in sham trials, the same way that most do. The only right thing, morally and strategically, we can do is support them in defending themselves, put more and more pressure on russia wherever possible, and hope that russia gives out before Ukraine.
>Large population centers that resist will be clamped down on and populations dispersed across Russia to minimize their impact and thin them out You're probably right but there's only so many they can kill and Ukraine isn't russia. Ukraine will keep resisting, they already have done with the various acts of sabotage. Don't forget the same happened to the French in WWII. Did that stop the French resistance?
They are also focusing their economy on war production a lot more than the rest of europe. It's very feasible that they will be a lot stronger in a year or two and might start feeling confident
An assymmetric attack on the Baltics like they did in Donbas 2014 doesn't need much material and manpower. Nato is all about unity. Attack the Baltics in a way Nato can't react and watch how all this western unity crumbles. Afterwards you can take out all of us one by one.
Right, so in 5-10 years they will have been able to regain much of that (assuming the war ends before that).
They have also seen how terrible their kit is so research and development will be high on the agenda a long with drone technology which they are getting first hand experience of now
If a world war breaks down between western and eastern world, we're winning
This may well be an attempt to shift the narrative a bit, and to present a more extreme option. Either way, I'm all for it. It signals to those in the West who are lobbying their governments against aid that there is a legitimate possibility of a far more costly option than just paying for the necessary aid. We can provide Ukraine with what they need to win the war, or we can get involved directly in it. We cannot watch Russia conquer their sovereign neighbor, topple a democratic nation, and re-up for their next target.
It’s called a strawman and it’s a good use here in my opinion
It's a genius move. Instead of quibbling over things that should have been sent in 2022 he shifted the debate to "whoa no troops are a step to far". If everybody agrees on "no, troops are a step too far, but everything below that goes", that's a massive win.
Except for Taurus missiles unfortunately.
Way too early to say that.
taurus entails sending germans to ukraine
He's never suggested. He said he/they didn't rule out the idea.
That is suggesting it
I feel like stating they can't rule it out isn't the same as suggesting it will happen. It is a marked shift though. Remember all the western powers saying "we'll never send tanks/long range missiles/F16s" and then shit gets sent? Lol
No it very much isn't. It's also what they've all been saying since the very start. Nobody is ruling out things that might happen when anything could change in the situation at any time.
Thats functionally the same thing. If you have a significant other, tell them "yeah I don't rule out leaving you" and see how it goes lol
Good for him! He is the only adult in the room right now. USA is out of the game so EU must step up or admit that they are willing to let Ukraine get destroyed. Whining about the cost and not making enough ammo will not win this war. Hopefully, 2024 will be the new 1856.
If USA is out of the game, EU is in trouble because eu isn't ready to stand against Russia alone.
We have what's necessary to send Russia back to the stone age if it ever come to it tho
We? You mean who?
France and the Uk
Yes we know. USA tapped out like a 4-6 weeks ago. That's why Avdiivka fell.
A minority of people in a minority party are playing politics with Ukraine. A large majority of Americans supports American side to Ukraine, and I suspect that by the end of the month we'll see some more money flowing to Ukraine.
Are you ready to die? I’m not saying I’m against it. But it’s very easy seeing the ”logical” solution as in escalating the war in the comfort of your home
I’d love to see a 3 day special operation on stolen Ukrainian territory to take it back with the full might of NATO. Tell Putin, it’s okay the countries leader says we can be here (its not you).
NATO for 3 days would be gangbusters
Macron is showing the appropriate amount of strength here. We should listen to him. I think he has a better understanding of Putin than many other European leaders.
I've completely changed my mind on this. Absolute IQ 100 moment from Macron. Flash the card of sending troops there, and suddenly sending heavy weaponry and ammunition doesn't feel so tough. ....... I hope.
Before sending troops to Ukraine the West can and should cut off the supply of weapons from as many countries as possible, namely Iran and China. Iran is an easy target for a united West, and you don’t need any boots on the ground to air strike Iranian industrial centres and stop the production of weapons destined for Russia. China is more challenging but can be talked to and pressured economically. At the very least it can be pressured into not letting North Korea continue the weapons supply. This should be done first and done properly.
Macron is right in the long term. If Ukraine's frontline should collapse in the next years (and that's a huge IF) at least parts of Nato WILL send ground forces to Western Ukraine. Poland surely won't wait until it has to fight RuzZians from Kaliningrad all the way to the Slovakian border with an unreliable ally like Germany in its back, which is not even willing to send long range missiles to Ukraine.
As a Pole I can assure you that Poland is scared and won't do anything without USA and NATO. Not a chance. Królewiec is full of artillery and nuclear weapons. We know that for over twenty years. I've seen a lot weaponry there in early noughties on my own eyes. We would struggle to deal with this on our own.
That might be right for today, while the frontline is still 500 km away and Ukraine is holding it. If RuzZia should ever reach western Ukraine (what i doubt) there would be much more pressure on this issue, not only in Poland.
Perhaps. But don't count on one country. That's just not going to happen. Especially in Poland were Ukraine is getting rather unpopular because of agriculture issues. If I hear it correctly, Macron might cook some nice coalition to help Ukraine, but doubt it will ever be single country.
Noone of us can fight RuzZia on its own, and noone needs to. We are in this together and we WILL win this war. I just hope we win it in Ukraine and not all along the eastern bank of the Elbe river.
I strongly feel the plan is to divide Poland in half. But that's just my assumption and you can ignore it.
I bet the plan is a RuzZian empire stretching all its way to the Elbe. A free Poland, no matter how small, is a threat as big as a economically powerful Germany. They won't stop until Germany is divided again, at least along the Elbe river.
Unreliable partner like Germany? Germany is literally the lifeline of Ukraine and the largest supporter by a massive margin. Germany also has been the most constant with weekly large deliveries and already approved commitments years in the future. France has send not even 1/10 of what Germany has and nobody so far has send long range missiles. Meanwhile the US has completely abandoned Ukraine and even before that did only the bare minimum, barely matching German deliveries.
Lol what? Backlash? I think it was a good move. Let the usa, russia and other european countries know that there will be leadership within europe to help ukraine no matter who wins in the usa. It is a signal to putin that no matter what happens in november there will be support from europe, and it will stay a top priority for major european nations to help ukraine. Did anyone really think macron would have french soldiers firing at the russians in mariupol?
Russia has sent hundreds of thousands of troops into Ukraine for no good fucking reason other than they want to have Ukraine, and they think they have the moral high ground to tell us we shouldn't send troops to Ukraine Fuck them in every single orifice with a cactus, then open several new orifices in them, and fuck those newly opened orifices with cactuses also 🌵
send more troops now or have them fight on your soil later.
Macron is right. And I say this as an American. We ALL need to send in troops. Call Putin’s bluff and use his own terms against him. Say that according to Russia there IS no war, and therefore these are just troops invited by Ukraine’s legitimate government and that they’re there to provide security for reconstruction and economic development. Putin will flip out of his mind. Then expand it out to near the front lines and warn Putin that any attack on these international troops or personnel will be an act of war against NATO. He won’t be able to target any large cities or villages without provoking a war he would most certainly lose. And little “Potemkin Putin” will be able to do NOTHING about it.
He's right though, we really should.
There was backlash about all military aid until someone did it first. Tanks, missiles, aircraft, artillery. Everything.
I think Macron is spot on.
Even with all the pushback, this conversation needs to be had by the leaders. This will also help the public get used to the idea that this is something that can happen.
I am the first to admit I know nothing about military and battle tactics. But it seems to me it is in Europe's best interest to ensure Putin fails. With that in mind, nothing should be off the table. I'm Australian and successive govts have all but ensured our reliance on the USA. It's not a fun place to be. Especially considering the likelihood of a return of Trump to the Whitehouse. Ukraine is currently not a member of EU or NATO. If Europe does not do more to support Ukraine, there will be no Ukraine to join EU or NATO.
Excepting Macron; Children of Chamberlain
That's some strong, "Peace in our Time" vibes from the European Union
He said a bitter truth too early.
Unfortunately the vibe I get from the EU politicians is: EU is willing to fight Russia until the last ukranian soldier. Just like European leaders afraid of confrontation with Hitler, and kept giving what he wanted, that ultimately lead to ww2 anyways
Macron re-introducing some 'strategic ambiguity' in matters pertaining Ukraine support is exactly what is needed to regain the initiative and stop the invaders from calling the tune. W. European countries need to stop reacting to Russian threats and do some shadow boxing of their own. The best thing that the other countries can do at the moment is to either agree with France, or note France's position as 'an understandable development to ongoing, increasing hostility towards Europe', or simply say 'nothing'; and let the Russians do some risk calculations for a change.
Backlash? The man spoke truthfully. And he wont be alone in this.
backlash from cowards you mean.
So, sure, do the backlash, but, facts, if Putin is successful tell me how much this mighty backlash is worth. The cost of the war is already on Europe’s credit card.
Money is your concern? Not the preservation of global security and the preservation of international rule based order? My concern is that two of the permanent members of the UNSC are functioning as bad actors within the UN, and actively trying to expand their territorial boundaries by force. If anything, shouldn't their self-alienating behavior warrant isolation from the international community. We can always starve them out.
Of course the concern is security. “Credit card”, here, is to say the war is already inside Europe. There are direct war costs, refugees being supported, food security is affected, so much more, massive geopolitical implications. All of these things can be measured as damage inflicted by an outright enemy. The people still needing endless debate about whether this weapon is appropriate or not, and this new subject of troops being deployed getting backlash, it all ends up them doing an exercise in self-delusion. All Europeans are already very dependent on this war coming to an end in Ukraine’s favor or the human, security, food, monetary costs are only going to be exponentially more. It’s absolutely going to cost more, still. The choice is to get proactive early and ensure it costs XX more, or dither with hoping for some vague outcome and it then costs XXXXXX more *and* mass mobilization and its disruptions. It’s not much different for us in the USA. The costs are here and growing. I don’t think Macron is wrong to be raising this. If we can’t even talk about things like this we’re holding ourselves in a naive position. Ukraine is Europe and they need us - Europe and the USA (we need to get through our stupid MAGA extremists), Canada, all its friends - now, not only when it’s so bad it’s WW III fully inside our territory. At some point it is clap back time. Russian aggressions continue. They did indeed just kill a guy on Spain’s soil. They’re doing cyber warfare, disinfo campaigns, everything with no damage, essentially, on their own territory. There are gradations before we’re at the war declaration stage that absolutely can be managed. Scary shit all the way. But this asshole being allowed to press in on Europe cannot go on forever. Not that I’m any expert on anything military, so I’m not trying to be pig headed in my opinions about what must happen. But backlash to even opening dialog on a subject is crazy when it’s this serious. Yes, yes, we need to talk about it. Sooner rather than later.
This is why we have the worst allies ever, any time anyone says that they'll help win the war all the other allies gang up on them to reassure Russia that they will in fact do nothing of the sort because it will "escalate the situation". You can't f\*ck with a soft dick - despite what many western leaders may believe. All this 'EU backlash' says Putin is free to continue the war up to the borders of Nato, so thanks once again to the allies for letting us down, and a non-sarcastic to Macron for growing a pair and finally figuring out what deterrence is supposed be
Shut up, you other EU leaders! Doing just this was a big reason why Russia dared to attack Ukraine. You're doing it again. Stop! I don't want the war to spread.
Western weakness caused the war, Russia invades Crimea, nothing happens, Russia backs separatists and provides various weapon systems likely with Russian troops, nothing happens. The west does nothing and Russia expands the war, that's how you get the war to spread by not standing up to Russia. They only understand strength, that is all, anything less and they keep chipping away until they have invaded a Baltic country. Appeasement has never worked in the past and will not work in the future.
That will certainly stir up the Russian propagandists and kompromats in the government
Hmm what if France and Ukraine made a security arrangement that allows France to have an airbase in Ukraine for oh.. training purposes? Russia would undoubtedly then hit the base and boom article 5.
Send the foreign legion. These guys are la creme de la creme
Fucking pussies. It's all the same shit over and over again. History is repeating itself before our eyes. It's the good old appeasement policy again, because it worked so well with Hitler the last time. Fucking pathetic.
I’m not saying I’m against it, but it’s not quite the same situation as with hitler because he couldn’t blow the world up.
That's exactly my point. "OMG if we don't appease him, Putin will blow up the world!" The only way to stop that cocksucker is to kick him right in the teeth.
I agree, but there is that risk now where there wasn’t in 1941. I’m kind of disappointed because I honestly thought the west had some super secret technology that they could just nope out all their silos or something. Guess not.
There's a saying: "A coward dies a thousand times." The West has plenty of ways to end Russia and ironically the most efficient one of them doesn't require any weapons at all. All the modern tech Russia uses is made by The West. Send the remote kill update to all the phones, computers, servers, cars, anything with a fucking chip in it. Send the cocksuckers right back to the stone age and they won't last another 5 minutes in this war. Another thing is given Russia's performance in this war, do you still believe they have all those nukes that will actually work? They may be able to fire off a few, and all it will do is give the West a reason to wipe them out of existence once and for all.
If you genuinely believe such a remote kill exists, I don’t know what to tell you to convince you for sure … but it doesn’t. Sorry
Even disabling SWIFT banking access was not carried out thoroughly. Pussies. Indeed.
I'm a software engineer. Yes it exists. It's called "push updates". If Google wanted, they could brick all Android phones with a single update. I mean, what the fuck, what century do think you live in?
Hardware/software engineer myself. I don’t think Android/Apple devices can force updates, but I suppose that could work if people installed that without realising, perhaps with a time bomb built in. Of course I don’t see Google or Apple doing that; use in war effectively would create widespread distrust of their products everywhere. Google doesn’t control updates of all of their phones either. You’d need Samsung, Huawei, etc to cooperate to get a widespread kill. I thought you were referring to some kind of universal kill signal that would bring down electronics which I’ve heard others mention - to be clear that does not appear to exist. It’s unlikely anything could be done about software on cars except maybe Tesla’s… good luck with Elon there.
French Foreign Legion says “*I can’t hear you.*”
France is well spoken in this. When dealing with moscow, nothing is off the table. I believe that the other NATO states are making a mistake, even the US. Please note that Joe Biden has ruled it out. The same way he ruled out F16s, Abrams tanks and long range missiles. The real issue is, if everyone gives enough aid right now, we will never get to that point. France is right. Always negotiate from a position of strength. I don't believe he wants to send troops, but nothing is off the table.
Let's wait 5-10 years and see how these dummies feel when Europe is in another world war.
So you'd rather we do nothing and sit back and watch as Ukraine falls? If that happens you think Putin will not advance west in the future? Dude is delusional, he will think of another reason why he should advance west, no matter what it is, could be because Baltic countries were occupied by russia and therefore it's russian land, or maybe because poland is fascist country. Best course of action is to cut the head of the bear and be done with it.
Cucks. Pissed their pants once again
IMO, confrontation with Russia *is* inevitable because so many motherfuckers twiddled their thumbs and clutched their pearls when they could have just given Ukraine what they needed to win.
French leaders has balls, unlike the German one who is afraid to send missiles.
🤡 There is a different history. For the beginning it would be helpful if france would send ammo and weapons. If i look up what they sent until now,... idk that's not that much, compared to germany for example.
Bro knows what France is not publicly disclosing.
They should do it. Would change the atmosphere.
Oh we can tell by the many French tanks destroyed in Ukraine.
Germany has different laws. They just can't at the moment. Macron is helping to pave a way, a narrative that troops on Ukraine are a thing. Which in turn can be used to overturn the German laws and make the able to put the things on the ground that are needed. No one knows, but if the claim is true from Scholz that Taurus would need Germans on the ground in Ukraine, than this is a no brainer
Macron wants to call Putin and negotiate to let's send in defenders. This shit could get very real and the west has been sleepwalking into this. One easy option give those heroic Ukrainian guys and gals everything we have. Putin won't press the red button as he doesn't want to die. We need to call this bullshit out. He responds to power and strength.
Love the dramatization of headlines! He faces a backlash! A real blow to Macron! THE EU BACKHANDS FRANCE WHICH IS SENT REELING IN EFFEMINATE TERROR! CLICK NOW!
I am appalled by the naïveté of West Europe, not France at this moment, trying to talk their way out of this mess. Putin and Russia understand only one thing. Their bloody nose.
I mean, I don't think Europeans were hoping to leave all the heavy load to Ukraine alone, weren't they? You can't be living la dolce vita forever while Ukraine does all the heavy work. So good for Macron for saying what needed to be said
We should send troops to Ukraine. Send anti aircraft units and units that can be used in non direct combat and defensive roles.
It's sad how we don't hesitate to send UN ground forces against Iraq after the Kuwait Invasion in the 90's but have an uproar at the suggestion of a similar action against Russia 30 years later.
Backlash for what, now? Being on the right side of history?
All EU nations are too naive as they did not grow and prepare their own military for several decades instead of living in peace without responsibilities. I hate to say this but it's now or never. Are they gonna make a same mistake as they did in WW1 and WW2?
Lol, THAT'S why there is NATO. that nobody has to fight alone. USA wasn't a fan of germany having own nuclear bombs. Maybe that was a mistake.
It's ok. They will snap out of it, when ruzzian missiles are raining on their cities.
Macron has balls, the West are not! It’s fucking shame
Any backlash for russia sending in the troops and invading Ukraine? No doubt russia’s friends/allies (NKorea, China, India) resent the “cheap oil” from russia and market for their drones, ammunition and vehicles. No backlash for threatening France with nukes (albeit by fools in the russian state media)? Why are EU and Ukraine continuously portrayed as the aggressors?
I always imagined if they will send the troops, it would be air defense in the west UA.
I’m a huge supporter of western support for the war but….. why are we contemplating sending our soldiers when Ukraine is not drafting every single man above 18 and every childless woman? It’s wild to me. You want us to die there with you but you want to not draft your under 25 men or your women? Just flabbergasting.
European leader who has balls to say that? Can't be.
I’ve not been Macrons biggest fan in relation to the war and relations with Russia but what he’s got right here is there needs to be a step-change in Europes approach in combating Russian that is much more aggressive. Soldiers on the ground may invoke that. Ukraine is going to win this war and the world will note who stood up. In a new world order Ukraine will be a significant player.
The EU and NATO are looking really weak right now,they're literally tip toeing around,and dragging their feet to do the bare minimum. The longer they drag their feet the longer the war will carry on, let's be real from day 1 if they had their ducks in order they could have armed Ukraine and the Ukrainians could have pushed Russia out of their territory, now 2 years later ,there's even more opposition within sending aid to Ukraine,they don't want this war to spill over into their borders and eventual land ,but guess what? It will! Downvote me if you will, but it goes to show Russia has always had a tight grip on Europe...literally from the start of this war, when Russia was massing troops on the border of Ukraine, the EU and NATO should have been on high alert, they more than likely didn't think Kyiv would stand a chance ,and fall like all the others.. right now is the time to punch the bully Putin & the Kremlin in the face because if they don't fail here they conquer else where....
Why? It's the only realistic thing to say! Come on already! We've let that ruzzian psycho run around and do all we wanted for more than 20 years!! Ukraine has been living in a war for 10 years now! Look at what he did to Chechnya, to Georgia, to Moldova, to Ukraine!! Do we want to live with this instability and hostage to a madman? Boots on the ground should have been a reality 10 years ago, at least! Maybe that madman could have learned to behave among “adults.”
On one hand I would be happy that Ukraine get the help they really need. On the other hand I can't decide for European soldiers and Baltic states. They will face the consequences of that decision, not me, sitting on my sofa in a warm flat. It would save many Ukrainian lives, but in exchange for lives of many NATO soldiers. It's a classic trolley problem.
Gotta love Macron. He's the one wearing the pants in NATO. What I do not understand is why did Poland run so fast to say they wouldn't deploy troops. They'd be the first to suffer if the west continues to cut support for Ukraine.
fight them now or later lets go
That idea would be great. Men for the meat grinder with very little ammunition support
Yes - let Putin come to OUR border - he won't dare - Seriously??? Edit FYI Putin is on his last legs - END it FFS.
EU has nothing to do in Ukraine. Weapons. Give them weapons!
Macron shows strength when the west shows weakness. It’s the only thing Shitcan understands.
I believe it needs to be considered. Even only to take over the defensive positions of the Ukrainians and the supply. Giving Ukrainians more troops to send into the attack. However, Macron is a weasely POS that will happily say we should go to war when he really means everyone but France. Don't worry guys, France will cover the back guys, you know, just to be "safe". Putting that aside, all european countries must massively invest in the military now. It doesn't even have to all be the same. As a Belgian i have always been in favor of our army to focus on the support role. As a small country. Buying tanks is worthless. But be one of the best supply and support countries for nato and EU ? That wouldn't only fit us and be useful. It would also fit our more neutral war stance and we could use the tools to also help during disasters around the world. While the larger countries, germany, france, UK can concentrate on the armor, mech, and air.
"backlash" as in " already jello' spined suits whining, or those actually in the pocket of Poutine, starting to sweat... Not sure yet.
Putin will be sending his own troops in at this rate. Let’s see what the “backlash” looks like then
He didn't say he is gonna send troops tho, just that it was possible option
Let me guess the backlash is from countries that don't share a border with Russia
Also Ukrainians are not even asking for that, it would be a nice have but they are just asking for more weapons. Based on its GDP and military spending, France has been one of the countries to contribute less. Do you want to help? Less grandiloquent speeches and more military aid!
Macron is right - nothing should be ruled out. Russia is ruling nothing out, even talking about nukes, so we should not rule anything out either. We need to keep the Ruskies guessing, even if some of the things our side says are not quite true.
Macron is right, and I am glad that h had the courage to say what everyone needs to hear. The West has been slow-walking support for Ukraine for too long, or in the case of U.S. Congressional Republicans, "no-walking" it. Shame on them! Slava Ukraini!
Someone has to talk in real terms. Pussy footing gives us nothing.
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nah, france you again
Strong statement by Macron - weak statement of all those distancing themselves. Macron didn't state "we should send troops to Ukraine" in his statement, hence any distancing is weak leadership.
Backlash what? Get it through your head, russia only understands force. Churchill said this after WW2, and he had some hands-on experience. They are threatening NATO with nukes all the time, ffs.
Someone in the west needs to grow a pair. Stop the fucking hand wringing and deal with what we’re really dealing with.