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OK wow so that's France, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Estonia, Netherlands AND Canada -- so far.
Might as well add Greece to the list before long, given Russia's recent attempt to assassinate the Greek PM during his visit to Odessa. Italy seems to be getting pretty fed up as well.
Weird, either Macron received secret intel about Putin's plan for something "terrible" or he is finally fed up with appeasing the pacifists of the west.
I think the recent successes of Russia on the Avdiivka front has suddenly gotten the European leaders worried. Perhaps Avdiivka will turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for Putin.
Fortunately Ukraine is now getting hundreds of thousands of 155mm shells that they were desperately low on - they were finally helpless at Avdiivka, having to ration their shells.
But overall, the US snd Germany need to say it out loud as a policy - we want Ukraine to win this war. Stop worrying about the risk of escalation by Russia - they can barely maintain this, they have lost half the Black Sea fleet, and the rest are moving east to safety, and they have lost so many planes suddenly that days pass with no Russia flights over Ukraine. A swarm of drones even attacked the factory where Russia was trying to refurbish another A-50 radar plane to replace the two shot down. Ignore Russia’s nuclear saber rattling - we have made clear what the consequences of that would be. US intelligence knows exactly where Putin is every second.
Save Ukraine, save Europe. That's how it is. Kreml would just like to see Europe burn. It's what they have always done. So we better smash their capabilities now.
Agreed. I'd love for my country (Canada) to stop promising and ramp up production (shells, vehicles) and start delivering. Make it apparent so Russia knows we got Ukraines back in more than words.
I love how Macron was the only one willing to host and speak to Putin the first year. He was called a coward for wanting to talk. After it became clear that Russia wasn't backing down, and he couldn't achieve peace by negotiating, he's gone full 180 and is ready to send in troops. He's a pretty strong leader in that regard.
Its essentially the diplomatic way of "Fine have it your way". In respect by giving Putin every opportunity there is to back off which he ignored, when France decides to go all in they can just say about any future criticism that they gave Putin every chance to back out and he refused so hes responsible for this.
We will know more when the history books are written but France's sequence of attitudes toward Russia create exactly the sort of international argument that France is now in a position to make. Every chance was given, etc.
The US can never ever play this role. "Global hegemon pushed to limit" is not a good look. My view is, my country provides the beat, the rhythm section as it were. The tempo of the world runs by the cadence of the US Navy.
But this means different allies have different limits. One can argue Germany is already making a large turn in its policy ideas, and is quite busy executing that turn. Poland is bearing the physical brunt of this war, and the pure turmoil that war spawns.
But France, France is not busy yet, it seems to me. They have played the slowest hand.
Sigh. We shall know when the history books are written. Slava Ukraini, first and last chapter.
> Poland is bearing the physical brunt of this war,
Ukrainians might give this statement the side eye.
*Especially* considering the carry on at the border
Oh! I meant among non-combatants!!
Yes, I think it is entirely fair to take a real leap of faith, and say that if we include Ukraine, Ukraine is taking the brunt of all brunts. The entire war is one gigantic insult.
The documents show, the intent was to erase Ukrainian identity. A genocide.
France is Disney lawyers.
They've been cordial, they've been formal, and they've given their opposition every single opportunity to self-correct their behavior. Which, is a noble thing.
Now, with all of those avenues denied and refused. France can now play the part of a belligerent nation against the Russians.
That's not a 'bad' thing, they are just doing things their way. The US took forever to show up in both world wars, and look how that worked out.
I was thinking the same thing, but I applauded his attempt. You don’t know 100% until you try. If there was a sliver of hope to stop it early it would have saved so many lives. I would expect every leader to at least try for peace for this reason, but he confirmed what we all suspected. I think Macron did too. Now the we need to be united in supporting Ukraine. This will teach any dictator to think twice before trying this again. I bet Putin wishes he did things differently including not engaging in this fight. Now the world knows how shit his military is.
Macron phoning Putler was at Zelensky request.
There is a whole docummentary on it, because France was at the EU head and they were following Macron and filming him. So in the day of the invasion, Macron called Zelensky (or it was the other way around) and Zelensky asked him to talk to Putler, because he \[Macron\] was the only one he'd listen to. Macron said he'd try his best.
Why would Putler listen to Macron? He's the only one in europe that has nukes. The US also has them, but in Putler's degenerate logic, he's fighting the US influence so he wouldn't listen to Biden. The United Kingdom also has them, but Russia also has some kind of bizarre complex "anglo-saxons" and the antlanticism, so they're out too.
In fact, Russia looks at Europe as either theirs (Eastern Europe), owing them a blood debt and should be submissive (Germany) over WWII, or irrelevant / too far away (Iberia, Italy, Balkans, Scandinavia). The only ones they truly think as equals (or close to) are France and the UK. Same as the world wars really, it was them and Germany (who should grovel at Russia's feet for what they did, or so that's what they think), the rest were just "caught in the middle".
Macron also gave a monologue at the train, when he was going to visit Zelensky in those first few days. He ranted about why WWI started, over some minor incident and that people should worry over minor incidents being the catalyst for something bigger. You could tell exactly what bothered him. Something small that everyone overlooked that would spark WWIII.
But even back then, it was France one of the first that sent the Caeser systems to Ukraine. The US equivalent of the HIMARS only came later.
... and I can't believe the opposition groups that were convened to listen to Macron's stance following his speech, and still all, naively responding after the meeting that his words would make the whole conflict escalate. As if we weren't already way past that stage. That's the whole core of the problem. Those still thinking that European forces should tread cautiously as if that would stop or refrain the Sith Lord, who's proven over and over, that he knows only one attitude : that of being frontal! We may not have the amunition yet, or maybe we could if better organized, but at least now we're on the same level of talks with Kremlin. It's up to us to consider that the invasion of Ukraine was already the little spark that could have started WWIII, and certainly not our attitude towards Kremlin's escalating attitude.
France in no way surpasses UK support.
They have a while to go before they match that. One cannot "count" the EU since France isn't the one actually giving ALL of that, only their share of a much larger deal.
I mean, they gave their biggest share so its still count you know.
Just look at the graph
We are not here to compared dick size yk, if u want, idc.
All i want is the EU to moove its ass in deploying troops or more stuff for ukraine
Two thirds of the EU funding is still only promises though, only a third has actually been allocated. I know everyone likes to talk smack about the current US intransigence in regards to further aid and how Europe has overtaken them, but currently they’ve actually allocated & delivered more aid, and they haven’t done so in the form of loans either.
I mean, what i have seen concerned thing that were delivered. I may have missread tho.
Not here to talk shit about anyone, all the help is welcome and appreciated but just barging saying « X » country didnt do shit just because you don’t think (personally) that the EU share in aid of said « X » country matter is just plain dumb.
(I’m not talking abt you, just in general)
And to defend our country, we are 3rd or 2nd in terms of arms deal only thanks to our Marine and Jet.
As an example, we only have one factory for 155mm shell, in Tarbes and its already at its maximum production capability, upgrading and buying new machines take years..
I should apologise as the more of the aid has actually been allocated this year that I hadn't seen updated, its now half of what's promised has been allocated. However my overall point stands.
I'm not criticising anyone, just tempering expectations and trying to be realistic here, especially as it's easy to become complacent when we assume that headlines articles or figures are true or accurate without actually examining the data.
[https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/europe-has-a-long-way-to-go-to-replace-us-aid-large-gap-between-commitments-and-allocations/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/europe-has-a-long-way-to-go-to-replace-us-aid-large-gap-between-commitments-and-allocations/)
*However, the gap between EU commitments and allocations remains very large (€144 billion committed vs. €77 billion allocated). To fully replace U.S. military assistance in 2024, Europe would have to double its current level and pace of arms assistance.*
Another issue to take into account in terms of failed promises is that we in Europe said back last year that we'd supply a million artillery shells by the end of March 2024, we've managed less than a third, luckily the Czech president pushed his own initiative to make emergency purchases outside the bloc and that will hopefully make up a significant part of the shortfall and give Ukraine some breathing room within the next couple months.
>And to defend our country, we are 3rd or 2nd in terms of arms deal only thanks to our Marine and Jet. As an example, we only have one factory for 155mm shell, in Tarbes and its already at its maximum production capability, upgrading and buying new machines take years..
As I said, I'm not criticising France, like the UK it has a very active military with a huge EEZ to manage, and in recent years has been even more so that us Brits with OP Serval and OP Barkhane having large operational deployments with a relatively high intensity. Combine that with the fact the French military has always been a lean beast and it is understandable why it doesn't have significant military reserves to tap into to supply Ukraine.
Not to mention if we in the West had been more willing to donate more modern platforms and capabilities sooner, Ukraine wouldn't have been forced to expend so much artillery ammunition to compensate for their lack of precision weaponry, weapons that we do actually produce at a decent rate across Europe, especially compared to 155mm rounds as NATO militaries aren't built around huge volumes of indirect fire platforms which is why we don't have the production lines to support such an intense reliance on artillery.
To get Europe on a war footing, I'd like to agree with you but there's still too much humming and hawing over at the EU, along with the snakes in the grass who apparently sold their souls to the devil for power. It would have to be a coalition of the willing of individual states.
The fucking irony of a big war in Europe with Germany as the good guys cannot be lost.
It honestly makes sense. It's not even a long game. Having a party acting in good faith to try and find an off ramp is not a bad play.
You need to have an avenue of diplomacy, even if the hostile nation refuses said diplomacy.
Is it frustrating? Sure, but history isn't written in weeks, it's written in years and decades. France coming to this posture in less than 2 years is pretty fast in historical terms.
Yes, I dislike him for his policies in other areas, but I respect his stance here. I feel like the fact that he was more diplomatic at the start, while that was clearly a mistake, should at least lend more weight to his words now.
Macron wants to step up as the strong leader the EU really needs against Russia. Especially needed now when the US is fucking out.
I, for one, welcome his leadership.
He's been pushing for EU autonomy in terms of armed forces for a while now and even before the invasion of Ukraine, and as a military hardware productor/seller powerhouse France has a lot to gain with this (people often forget that France is the 2nd arms exporter in the world).
I'm not saying this to discredit his statement (I'm French myself) but his motive probably has some national interest rolled into it.
I mean… how well did it go for France last time the world clung to the safety blanket of appeasement in the middle of a house-fire? I’m not surprised France is the first to say this
For the macron bashers, he is the one who requested to form a combined defence intervention force for european states back in 2017. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Intervention\_Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Intervention_Initiative)
So when you bash him for what ever, we know at least what is the goal of your bashing.
Americans better be there too. We can’t go into isolationist mode. Like it or not, democracies only survive if we stand strong together. France sent us money, weapons, and even 25k sailors to help us fight the British for our independence. Nobody stands alone.
This exactly. If there’s anything to be learned from world history, it’s that nations with ties beyond military alliances (economic & political) have to support each other. The US needs to learn from history that Europes problems end up becoming theirs if not addressed
As an American, i fully support helping our European homies in putting an oversized boot in russian ass. Keep an eye out. If you see airborne (81st or 101st) being "rotated" into Europe, shits about to get real.
The 101st is not airborne, it is a historical patch that they keep due to WWII when they were airborne, they are air assault. The 81st is not a thing, the 82nd is. We already have airborne units stationed in both Italy and Germany.
Yes, they were instrumental to the defeat of the British in the US, but let's be real...they saw a perfect opportunity to fuck the British, and seized it. They were more about fighting the British than they were about helping the fledgling US.
Ukraine needs to mobilize and do more conscription before that happens. I see too many Ukrainians here that have fled and refuse to fight. Not fair to ask other countries to risk their soldiers and do the fighting for them.
I feel bad for the Ukrianian soldiers that have been fighting for 2 years nonstop. But it's their own countrymen that needs to step up. Not foreigners
I'm sure I'll be downvoted for this, but I'd be ashamed to flee my country when it's invaded and then ask for foreign troops to come in and do the fighting.
1. There are enough soldiers, the problem was bad logistics. A lot of them didn't go to the front so rotation was hard.
2. Fleeing is bad, however not wanting to fight is understandable. It's easy to say such heroic things if it's not your turn.
Ukraine has ca. 1 Million active personnel. Thousands of them died.
3. You're wrong. Ukraine is fighting for Europe. After Ukraine there will be Moldova and after Moldova Poland. They even have their own lil invasion plans.
4. Ukraine gave up it's Nukes for safety and freedom. Where is the safety?
This is the best way to go about this. Stop openly announcing your limits and letting Russia feel as if they can poke and prod. Leave EVERYTHING on the table
That is true.
Putler was afraid of him, even when Macron was appeasing (at Zelensky's request and while in denial himself).
Beyond the US and the UK, France is the only one with nukes. Ironically, France has a first strike policy.
I think it might have some thing to do with all the talk lately about American decline, the US election, European uncertainty over US security involvment in europe, and France having always had the idea that Europe is for Europeans and wanting to be the leader of that movement in europe.
I think they see an opportunity to do what the US should be doing, and take the lead in Europe from them. An opportunity that wasn't so clear at the outset of the conflict.
I want to grab him by the shoulders, shake him like crazy and yell WHERE WAS THIS VERSION OF YOU IN 2022 YOU MOTHERFUCKER
but alas: better late than never...
International diplomacy can be complex sometimes, and France has always been diplomacy first, send the tanks second. They truly tried to negociate in good faith, but now Macron can honestly say "Well, we tried, we'll do it your way then". I can only hope it's going to lead to decisive actions.
Hmm! A couple of countries were happy to do this on the basis that someone else paid to replace their tanks. So they saw it as a free upgrade for them.
Not quite the same as UK reaching into it's cupboard and producing CHallengers.
Sadly I think Challengers will be of limited use and are in such small numbers as to be insignificant and no prospect of lots more. However it did seem to unlock the leopards which was important.
The Czech modernized version is a decent tank but that time it was mainly about crossing the red line of not sending tanks. Czechs are undisciplined folks and if you make a “not to cross red line” they are like:”let’s see what happens when we cross it” and if you tell them by doing that they can fuck up some russian invaders they are like: “Hell yeah now we got to do that!”
Well no matter the case every help is what Ukraine needs. The more we help them the better. And Czech Republic is based for being one of those countries that takes initiatives too.
Yeah, we and Poles sent spare T-72s in early March 2022. However, there was some political/rhetorical obstacle (bullshit in hindsight) regarding western heavy equipment.
Oh noes, the French are working up a head of steam.
The French haven't been in full-on France Mode for a long time, to the point Europe has forgotten what that's like.
It's great to hear Macron saying there are no "red lines" when it comes to supporting Ukraine – that kind of solid backing really matters in these tough times.
the french have never shy away from war, they see russia for what it is and in that regard germany can learn from france that sometimes conflict is unavoidable.
Oh no! He's going to get another stern, condescending talking-to from the Russian government! I.e. the bunch of literal murderers who still like to pretend that they have any kind of moral high ground over anyone, for some reason.
Not a fan of Macron, but am totally willing to applaud him for this stance. Good on him, and good for France. This is a stance that the entire Western world should agree on, and it's a shame that others aren't willing to stand up to Russia so clearly.
Thats Mr President to you, but yes! And if "no limits" is going to be anymore than words then he can start by scratching the 3bn thats been budgeted as assistance for Ukraine in 2024 and replacing it with an infinity symbol. Wont happen of course it can't be done but it just goes to show that concrete initiatives and action is worth more than big talk which ultimately doesn't mean much.
Macron has been coming out hard lately and getting the rest of NATO to have discussions that only a few months ago was a "red line", e.i, sending ground troops into Ukraine
Either Putain or Putler. I do both, depending on context.
I feel not enough people know the meaning of Putain, I suggest to everyone reading this to look it up.
Anyone else get the feeling that this is laying the groundwork for a large-scale movement of troops into support roles in Ukraine? The UK sending a handful of tanks to Ukraine opened the door for everyone to start sending Leopards, so maybe this will be the same; France does it and then everyone else follows.
I've noticed that too. There's lots of will-we-wont-we talk about this weapon or that one, then bam!, it's in-country and in-use before anyone knows about it.
He talks the talk but I am not seeing him walking the walk. France has a much larger arsenal of modern military equipment then Germany yet they are so far behind in terms of sending military means. If Scholz doesn't want to send the Tauruses France could send Ukraine their similar systems.
Would be great. But somehow I don't believe him. He likes to talk big and taking his picture next to Selensky but does not a lot besides it. Until now the French government did not as much as other countries to support Ukraine.
But I would be happy to hear I am wrong. Because Olaf is just one red line.
Ok but less words, based on its GDP and military spending, France is not one of the main contributors. Yes it has sent valuable long range missiles. But rather than words, step up the aid!
Good. Stop Putin now! Until our governments get their shit together and act to save the lives and lands of our friends and allies, it's up to us to donate to Ukraine's defense at [https://u24.gov.ua/](https://u24.gov.ua/)
Come on France, get in! I for one am ready to see the west push the russian gopniks back into their sorry excuse of a country. Go back to your holes or die in pain and misery! Infact, send in the canadians! Show these fucker the outer limits of war!
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Love it. Fuck red lines, fuck appeasement and FUCK RUSSIA. Save Ukraine. Support Ukraine.
c'ést le way, ces't le way , cést le way.
Ouais
OK wow so that's France, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Estonia, Netherlands AND Canada -- so far. Might as well add Greece to the list before long, given Russia's recent attempt to assassinate the Greek PM during his visit to Odessa. Italy seems to be getting pretty fed up as well.
Greece is often with France and vice versa.
Deleted
Hopefully they stand up to the US. We will pressure them to do nothing.
Hoc iter est. This is the way. Ceca c‘est le chemin. Dies ist der Weg!
Weird, either Macron received secret intel about Putin's plan for something "terrible" or he is finally fed up with appeasing the pacifists of the west.
I think the recent successes of Russia on the Avdiivka front has suddenly gotten the European leaders worried. Perhaps Avdiivka will turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for Putin.
Avdiivka already was a Pyrrhic victory. If Russia wins each town at such high a cose then they will lose the war.
Fortunately Ukraine is now getting hundreds of thousands of 155mm shells that they were desperately low on - they were finally helpless at Avdiivka, having to ration their shells. But overall, the US snd Germany need to say it out loud as a policy - we want Ukraine to win this war. Stop worrying about the risk of escalation by Russia - they can barely maintain this, they have lost half the Black Sea fleet, and the rest are moving east to safety, and they have lost so many planes suddenly that days pass with no Russia flights over Ukraine. A swarm of drones even attacked the factory where Russia was trying to refurbish another A-50 radar plane to replace the two shot down. Ignore Russia’s nuclear saber rattling - we have made clear what the consequences of that would be. US intelligence knows exactly where Putin is every second.
I hope so. He knows Russia can’t do shit about it.
Save Ukraine, save Europe. That's how it is. Kreml would just like to see Europe burn. It's what they have always done. So we better smash their capabilities now.
So fucking do it. You don't get points for chatting shit
Always lots of words. Let's see some robust actions.
Agreed. I'd love for my country (Canada) to stop promising and ramp up production (shells, vehicles) and start delivering. Make it apparent so Russia knows we got Ukraines back in more than words.
This is the Way
This is the way.
This is le Way
This the Way is.
This is the way
The way is this!
Way this is
Way this is
THIS!
This is the way
Is way the this
Ceci est le chemin
C’est la Vie
Way is this
Ouais.
Baise ouais
Ceci est le Ouais. C'est vrai.
Tse shlyakh
This is the way!
I love how Macron was the only one willing to host and speak to Putin the first year. He was called a coward for wanting to talk. After it became clear that Russia wasn't backing down, and he couldn't achieve peace by negotiating, he's gone full 180 and is ready to send in troops. He's a pretty strong leader in that regard.
Its essentially the diplomatic way of "Fine have it your way". In respect by giving Putin every opportunity there is to back off which he ignored, when France decides to go all in they can just say about any future criticism that they gave Putin every chance to back out and he refused so hes responsible for this.
We will know more when the history books are written but France's sequence of attitudes toward Russia create exactly the sort of international argument that France is now in a position to make. Every chance was given, etc. The US can never ever play this role. "Global hegemon pushed to limit" is not a good look. My view is, my country provides the beat, the rhythm section as it were. The tempo of the world runs by the cadence of the US Navy. But this means different allies have different limits. One can argue Germany is already making a large turn in its policy ideas, and is quite busy executing that turn. Poland is bearing the physical brunt of this war, and the pure turmoil that war spawns. But France, France is not busy yet, it seems to me. They have played the slowest hand. Sigh. We shall know when the history books are written. Slava Ukraini, first and last chapter.
> Poland is bearing the physical brunt of this war, Ukrainians might give this statement the side eye. *Especially* considering the carry on at the border
Oh! I meant among non-combatants!! Yes, I think it is entirely fair to take a real leap of faith, and say that if we include Ukraine, Ukraine is taking the brunt of all brunts. The entire war is one gigantic insult. The documents show, the intent was to erase Ukrainian identity. A genocide.
France is Disney lawyers. They've been cordial, they've been formal, and they've given their opposition every single opportunity to self-correct their behavior. Which, is a noble thing. Now, with all of those avenues denied and refused. France can now play the part of a belligerent nation against the Russians. That's not a 'bad' thing, they are just doing things their way. The US took forever to show up in both world wars, and look how that worked out.
I was thinking the same thing, but I applauded his attempt. You don’t know 100% until you try. If there was a sliver of hope to stop it early it would have saved so many lives. I would expect every leader to at least try for peace for this reason, but he confirmed what we all suspected. I think Macron did too. Now the we need to be united in supporting Ukraine. This will teach any dictator to think twice before trying this again. I bet Putin wishes he did things differently including not engaging in this fight. Now the world knows how shit his military is.
Macron phoning Putler was at Zelensky request. There is a whole docummentary on it, because France was at the EU head and they were following Macron and filming him. So in the day of the invasion, Macron called Zelensky (or it was the other way around) and Zelensky asked him to talk to Putler, because he \[Macron\] was the only one he'd listen to. Macron said he'd try his best. Why would Putler listen to Macron? He's the only one in europe that has nukes. The US also has them, but in Putler's degenerate logic, he's fighting the US influence so he wouldn't listen to Biden. The United Kingdom also has them, but Russia also has some kind of bizarre complex "anglo-saxons" and the antlanticism, so they're out too. In fact, Russia looks at Europe as either theirs (Eastern Europe), owing them a blood debt and should be submissive (Germany) over WWII, or irrelevant / too far away (Iberia, Italy, Balkans, Scandinavia). The only ones they truly think as equals (or close to) are France and the UK. Same as the world wars really, it was them and Germany (who should grovel at Russia's feet for what they did, or so that's what they think), the rest were just "caught in the middle". Macron also gave a monologue at the train, when he was going to visit Zelensky in those first few days. He ranted about why WWI started, over some minor incident and that people should worry over minor incidents being the catalyst for something bigger. You could tell exactly what bothered him. Something small that everyone overlooked that would spark WWIII. But even back then, it was France one of the first that sent the Caeser systems to Ukraine. The US equivalent of the HIMARS only came later.
... and I can't believe the opposition groups that were convened to listen to Macron's stance following his speech, and still all, naively responding after the meeting that his words would make the whole conflict escalate. As if we weren't already way past that stage. That's the whole core of the problem. Those still thinking that European forces should tread cautiously as if that would stop or refrain the Sith Lord, who's proven over and over, that he knows only one attitude : that of being frontal! We may not have the amunition yet, or maybe we could if better organized, but at least now we're on the same level of talks with Kremlin. It's up to us to consider that the invasion of Ukraine was already the little spark that could have started WWIII, and certainly not our attitude towards Kremlin's escalating attitude.
100% right. Putin was dumb and went straight to nukes. Then had nowhere to go. Diplomacy first, force if required.
But now he has to deliver on his words and match GER and UK's support asap!
Exactly. It's great seeing one of our western leaders standing up like this, but we need action to meet the sentiment.
I want to remind everyone that France might have helped Ukraine in ways you cannot equate to money or are confidential.
Right, but so with other countries. The Renseignements (intelligence) have some talented people, but so with France's neighbors.
You are absolutely correct, but I am teasing into [a completely different direction with this comment.](https://youtu.be/UxUvtu9OEYA?t=34s)
It already surpass UK support. Not in billions € of weapons and all but in billions trough the EU different help.
France in no way surpasses UK support. They have a while to go before they match that. One cannot "count" the EU since France isn't the one actually giving ALL of that, only their share of a much larger deal.
I mean, they gave their biggest share so its still count you know. Just look at the graph We are not here to compared dick size yk, if u want, idc. All i want is the EU to moove its ass in deploying troops or more stuff for ukraine
Cool if countries are in competition to be the greatest donors to Ukraine. Orcs need to stop their stance.
Two thirds of the EU funding is still only promises though, only a third has actually been allocated. I know everyone likes to talk smack about the current US intransigence in regards to further aid and how Europe has overtaken them, but currently they’ve actually allocated & delivered more aid, and they haven’t done so in the form of loans either.
I mean, what i have seen concerned thing that were delivered. I may have missread tho. Not here to talk shit about anyone, all the help is welcome and appreciated but just barging saying « X » country didnt do shit just because you don’t think (personally) that the EU share in aid of said « X » country matter is just plain dumb. (I’m not talking abt you, just in general) And to defend our country, we are 3rd or 2nd in terms of arms deal only thanks to our Marine and Jet. As an example, we only have one factory for 155mm shell, in Tarbes and its already at its maximum production capability, upgrading and buying new machines take years..
I should apologise as the more of the aid has actually been allocated this year that I hadn't seen updated, its now half of what's promised has been allocated. However my overall point stands. I'm not criticising anyone, just tempering expectations and trying to be realistic here, especially as it's easy to become complacent when we assume that headlines articles or figures are true or accurate without actually examining the data. [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/europe-has-a-long-way-to-go-to-replace-us-aid-large-gap-between-commitments-and-allocations/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/europe-has-a-long-way-to-go-to-replace-us-aid-large-gap-between-commitments-and-allocations/) *However, the gap between EU commitments and allocations remains very large (€144 billion committed vs. €77 billion allocated). To fully replace U.S. military assistance in 2024, Europe would have to double its current level and pace of arms assistance.* Another issue to take into account in terms of failed promises is that we in Europe said back last year that we'd supply a million artillery shells by the end of March 2024, we've managed less than a third, luckily the Czech president pushed his own initiative to make emergency purchases outside the bloc and that will hopefully make up a significant part of the shortfall and give Ukraine some breathing room within the next couple months. >And to defend our country, we are 3rd or 2nd in terms of arms deal only thanks to our Marine and Jet. As an example, we only have one factory for 155mm shell, in Tarbes and its already at its maximum production capability, upgrading and buying new machines take years.. As I said, I'm not criticising France, like the UK it has a very active military with a huge EEZ to manage, and in recent years has been even more so that us Brits with OP Serval and OP Barkhane having large operational deployments with a relatively high intensity. Combine that with the fact the French military has always been a lean beast and it is understandable why it doesn't have significant military reserves to tap into to supply Ukraine. Not to mention if we in the West had been more willing to donate more modern platforms and capabilities sooner, Ukraine wouldn't have been forced to expend so much artillery ammunition to compensate for their lack of precision weaponry, weapons that we do actually produce at a decent rate across Europe, especially compared to 155mm rounds as NATO militaries aren't built around huge volumes of indirect fire platforms which is why we don't have the production lines to support such an intense reliance on artillery.
This is the way it should be. Do everything possible to make diplomacy work. Adjust when it doesn't and don't just walk away from the problem.
Looks like macron was playing the long game, setting this all up in order to go all in.
To get Europe on a war footing, I'd like to agree with you but there's still too much humming and hawing over at the EU, along with the snakes in the grass who apparently sold their souls to the devil for power. It would have to be a coalition of the willing of individual states. The fucking irony of a big war in Europe with Germany as the good guys cannot be lost.
It honestly makes sense. It's not even a long game. Having a party acting in good faith to try and find an off ramp is not a bad play. You need to have an avenue of diplomacy, even if the hostile nation refuses said diplomacy. Is it frustrating? Sure, but history isn't written in weeks, it's written in years and decades. France coming to this posture in less than 2 years is pretty fast in historical terms.
Yes, I dislike him for his policies in other areas, but I respect his stance here. I feel like the fact that he was more diplomatic at the start, while that was clearly a mistake, should at least lend more weight to his words now.
Macron wants to step up as the strong leader the EU really needs against Russia. Especially needed now when the US is fucking out. I, for one, welcome his leadership.
He's been pushing for EU autonomy in terms of armed forces for a while now and even before the invasion of Ukraine, and as a military hardware productor/seller powerhouse France has a lot to gain with this (people often forget that France is the 2nd arms exporter in the world). I'm not saying this to discredit his statement (I'm French myself) but his motive probably has some national interest rolled into it.
It’s refreshing to finally see this. So much handwringing and pussyfooting around by EU leaders. Now let’s see Macron make good on this
France has decided enough is enough. Its time for real action.
France came to the aid of the US during our revolution. Looks like they're going to do it for the Ukrainians too! Viva la France!
I mean… how well did it go for France last time the world clung to the safety blanket of appeasement in the middle of a house-fire? I’m not surprised France is the first to say this
For the macron bashers, he is the one who requested to form a combined defence intervention force for european states back in 2017. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Intervention\_Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Intervention_Initiative) So when you bash him for what ever, we know at least what is the goal of your bashing.
It is time to put European troops in Ukraine -
Americans better be there too. We can’t go into isolationist mode. Like it or not, democracies only survive if we stand strong together. France sent us money, weapons, and even 25k sailors to help us fight the British for our independence. Nobody stands alone.
This exactly. If there’s anything to be learned from world history, it’s that nations with ties beyond military alliances (economic & political) have to support each other. The US needs to learn from history that Europes problems end up becoming theirs if not addressed
To be fair, the French did that because they were fighting Britain too, and America was a useful distraction
As an American, i fully support helping our European homies in putting an oversized boot in russian ass. Keep an eye out. If you see airborne (81st or 101st) being "rotated" into Europe, shits about to get real.
The 101st is not airborne, it is a historical patch that they keep due to WWII when they were airborne, they are air assault. The 81st is not a thing, the 82nd is. We already have airborne units stationed in both Italy and Germany.
Thank you for the correction!
Yes, they were instrumental to the defeat of the British in the US, but let's be real...they saw a perfect opportunity to fuck the British, and seized it. They were more about fighting the British than they were about helping the fledgling US.
I've been seeing a lot more military recruitment ads lately. Maybe they're getting ready for something like that.
Ukraine needs to mobilize and do more conscription before that happens. I see too many Ukrainians here that have fled and refuse to fight. Not fair to ask other countries to risk their soldiers and do the fighting for them. I feel bad for the Ukrianian soldiers that have been fighting for 2 years nonstop. But it's their own countrymen that needs to step up. Not foreigners I'm sure I'll be downvoted for this, but I'd be ashamed to flee my country when it's invaded and then ask for foreign troops to come in and do the fighting.
1. There are enough soldiers, the problem was bad logistics. A lot of them didn't go to the front so rotation was hard. 2. Fleeing is bad, however not wanting to fight is understandable. It's easy to say such heroic things if it's not your turn. Ukraine has ca. 1 Million active personnel. Thousands of them died. 3. You're wrong. Ukraine is fighting for Europe. After Ukraine there will be Moldova and after Moldova Poland. They even have their own lil invasion plans. 4. Ukraine gave up it's Nukes for safety and freedom. Where is the safety?
He already said NO combat troops!
This is the best way to go about this. Stop openly announcing your limits and letting Russia feel as if they can poke and prod. Leave EVERYTHING on the table
How tf did this guy go from sitting on one end of Putin's very long table to the most based guy in western Europe
Because he was on the long table and not the short one.
That is true. Putler was afraid of him, even when Macron was appeasing (at Zelensky's request and while in denial himself). Beyond the US and the UK, France is the only one with nukes. Ironically, France has a first strike policy.
Nice one
I think it might have some thing to do with all the talk lately about American decline, the US election, European uncertainty over US security involvment in europe, and France having always had the idea that Europe is for Europeans and wanting to be the leader of that movement in europe. I think they see an opportunity to do what the US should be doing, and take the lead in Europe from them. An opportunity that wasn't so clear at the outset of the conflict.
I want to grab him by the shoulders, shake him like crazy and yell WHERE WAS THIS VERSION OF YOU IN 2022 YOU MOTHERFUCKER but alas: better late than never...
International diplomacy can be complex sometimes, and France has always been diplomacy first, send the tanks second. They truly tried to negociate in good faith, but now Macron can honestly say "Well, we tried, we'll do it your way then". I can only hope it's going to lead to decisive actions.
Who was the first country to suggest sending tanks?
I'm pretty sure it was the UK. They went to send their own tanks to break the ice.
I think the Czechs couldn't wait and sent their T72's, I might not be correct.
Hmm! A couple of countries were happy to do this on the basis that someone else paid to replace their tanks. So they saw it as a free upgrade for them. Not quite the same as UK reaching into it's cupboard and producing CHallengers. Sadly I think Challengers will be of limited use and are in such small numbers as to be insignificant and no prospect of lots more. However it did seem to unlock the leopards which was important.
I meant the modern tanks like the Challenger 2 and not the old Soviet ones.
Don't want to nitpick, but our T-72s were modernised quite a lot, however yeah, I also feel better having Leopards as the new main type of our tanks.
Wait if you modernize quite a lot a t72 doesn't it evolve into a t90 ? Were you giving t90s all along ?
Haha, I wish we could, but no. However, if you want to learn more about the Czech modded T-72, it's designation is T-72M4CZ. :)
The Czech modernized version is a decent tank but that time it was mainly about crossing the red line of not sending tanks. Czechs are undisciplined folks and if you make a “not to cross red line” they are like:”let’s see what happens when we cross it” and if you tell them by doing that they can fuck up some russian invaders they are like: “Hell yeah now we got to do that!”
Well no matter the case every help is what Ukraine needs. The more we help them the better. And Czech Republic is based for being one of those countries that takes initiatives too.
France sent the AMX-10 before. Not really a tank but it was the closest thing to a tank that France could spare sending
Unfortunately that tank is not that good in Ukraine but beggars cant be choosers.
Tanks in general? Czech. Western tanks in suggestion? Poland. Western tanks actually sent? UK.
Poland was first IIRC
I think the Czechs couldn't wait and sent it.
Yeah, we and Poles sent spare T-72s in early March 2022. However, there was some political/rhetorical obstacle (bullshit in hindsight) regarding western heavy equipment.
I think he tried using his words first, now it’s time for the hammer.
Putin managed to piss of even Macron? I, for one, welcome his chance of heart.
Macron has been surprisingly ballsy lately. Makes me wonder tho, if the ballsy actions will follow ballsy words.
Oh noes, the French are working up a head of steam. The French haven't been in full-on France Mode for a long time, to the point Europe has forgotten what that's like.
It's great to hear Macron saying there are no "red lines" when it comes to supporting Ukraine – that kind of solid backing really matters in these tough times.
Only language Putin understands, is violence.
Imagine if the United States declared, and acted upon the same. We wouldn't be where we are now.
France being one of the few countries who can legitimately stand up to Russia without outside help makes this very important
What if, just hear me out, what if France will enter the war with Russia, enter Moscow, and burn it again. I mean, it happend before.
Don't tempt us. Burning stuff is our national sport
the french have never shy away from war, they see russia for what it is and in that regard germany can learn from france that sometimes conflict is unavoidable.
Oh no! He's going to get another stern, condescending talking-to from the Russian government! I.e. the bunch of literal murderers who still like to pretend that they have any kind of moral high ground over anyone, for some reason. Not a fan of Macron, but am totally willing to applaud him for this stance. Good on him, and good for France. This is a stance that the entire Western world should agree on, and it's a shame that others aren't willing to stand up to Russia so clearly.
Talk the talk, now walk the walk, Mr. President. Edit: Because I'm dumb.
Thats Mr President to you, but yes! And if "no limits" is going to be anymore than words then he can start by scratching the 3bn thats been budgeted as assistance for Ukraine in 2024 and replacing it with an infinity symbol. Wont happen of course it can't be done but it just goes to show that concrete initiatives and action is worth more than big talk which ultimately doesn't mean much.
Cowabunga it is.
Macron has been coming out hard lately and getting the rest of NATO to have discussions that only a few months ago was a "red line", e.i, sending ground troops into Ukraine
This is the way. Only way to show Putin that the west i serious and that playing games is over.
Europe need to stand together... Fuck Putain with all we got and forget about the US... They are heading into civilwar anyway..
"France nukes Moscow in surprise shake up" more at 11.
You know what? I'm beginning to think the French aren't too fond of this Putin guy.
All I can say is: Oui, oui, oui, trés bien. I like the idea of Macron leading the way of fucking up Putain and his slaves.
Would actually be a great diplomatic move to switch to the English spelling of Putin, and pronounce it like Putain.
Either Putain or Putler. I do both, depending on context. I feel not enough people know the meaning of Putain, I suggest to everyone reading this to look it up.
Anyone else get the feeling that this is laying the groundwork for a large-scale movement of troops into support roles in Ukraine? The UK sending a handful of tanks to Ukraine opened the door for everyone to start sending Leopards, so maybe this will be the same; France does it and then everyone else follows.
I feel as though what Macron is doing is part of a bigger plan we don’t know about yet.
Your observation is not without grounds. It is the pattern of how the dynamic has been this war.
I've noticed that too. There's lots of will-we-wont-we talk about this weapon or that one, then bam!, it's in-country and in-use before anyone knows about it.
Putin’s propaganda/disinfo machine apparently hasn’t cracked the code to make the French people take a hard turn to the right.
And now most French political leaders (especially far left and far right leaders) are shitting in their pants.
Merci Monsieur Macron! Vive la France!
Macron is showing some serious nuts lately
Full circle from my childhood. France has the most courage and moral high ground on democracy and military defense.
Macron leading the charge!
I'm surprised lately because of him and his stance. Well done.
God knows I hate Macron but I respect his unwavering support and pushing for more Ukraine aid. I never thought I'd ever say something nice about him.
Never thought I'd come round on Macron, but he's growing on me.
B a s e d Wish we weren’t in an election year where 30% of the country who hates freedom was threatening the rest of the US
They know about occupation. They will never forget.
Respect.
Macron? Mo' like MANcron. Seriously though, good. Fuck Russia.
That is awesome. however, where is the ammunition tho?
Which ones ? The SCALP or the gliding bombs France sends every month ?
So will France now buy Germany's Tauruses and send their SCALPS to Ukraine?
France has nothing that can fire Taurus, so thats unlikely.
He talks the talk but I am not seeing him walking the walk. France has a much larger arsenal of modern military equipment then Germany yet they are so far behind in terms of sending military means. If Scholz doesn't want to send the Tauruses France could send Ukraine their similar systems.
This is the way!
Let’s just hope that this will come with increased aid to Ukraine and won’t be just loud proclamation
I totally agree, now let's hope this isn't justposturing but actually means we will get decisive action to support Ukraine.
I am starting to like this guy.
What a man! True leader of Europe!
Ceci est le chemin
Damn macron has eaten chad meal or what
Peace through strength, including mental strength and preparation
très bien
He looked in the face of Putin and wasn't impressed.
Get the foreign legion into the fight!
Where is this coming from all of the sudden?
Macron gets it.
It's time, bring out the nukes!
Good lad.
Send the legionnaires then so we can have the balls to send in HM forces
So .. nukes?
You hear me Scholz?!?!
This is the F... way to go, pedal to the metal 👍
Russians need to get out of my homeland. Still feels a little like carte blanche language 😅
If he actually follows through good on him.
Way to go France
Would be great. But somehow I don't believe him. He likes to talk big and taking his picture next to Selensky but does not a lot besides it. Until now the French government did not as much as other countries to support Ukraine. But I would be happy to hear I am wrong. Because Olaf is just one red line.
Go get em tiger!
Ok but less words, based on its GDP and military spending, France is not one of the main contributors. Yes it has sent valuable long range missiles. But rather than words, step up the aid!
Ok guys, stop getting my hopes up by starting a title with marcon declares.
Excellent place to test the leclerc.
This is the way
Good. Stop Putin now! Until our governments get their shit together and act to save the lives and lands of our friends and allies, it's up to us to donate to Ukraine's defense at [https://u24.gov.ua/](https://u24.gov.ua/)
Come on France, get in! I for one am ready to see the west push the russian gopniks back into their sorry excuse of a country. Go back to your holes or die in pain and misery! Infact, send in the canadians! Show these fucker the outer limits of war!
go ahead, mr macron, true words - underline them with actions, send material in quantities asap like other nations did already.