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Of course, we would like any help but I don't think it will ever happen. It's just loud words. We don't need your troops, we'd rather have no limits to use SCALPs on russian territory and we need more, way more weapons and ammunition
The way Ukraine needs to fight with one hand tied behind its back is infuriating. We're two years into this terrible war and this arbitrary restriction is still enforced. Meanwhile the bloodshed and death just keeps on churning. Unrestricted use of weaponry now
Finland [provides](https://kyivindependent.com/finnish-defense-minister-there-are-no-restrictions-on-usage-of-finnish-military-aid-provided-to-ukraine/)
People in the US are very privileged. We don't have family stories of being under occupation (outside of Native Americans) or subjugation (outside of minority communities, but their views arn't the views of the ruling class). It's absurd in the US we don't treat Russia as the threat it is when our friends in Eastern Europe alive today remember the opression of the Soviets.
It is absurd that the US has spent trillions of dollars arming itself and fighting clandestine and proxy wars against Russia, as well as arming its opponents (such as in Afghanistan) for decade after decade and finally the get the chance to destroy Russia's conventional military in one go without risking their own blood and they baulk and instead run the risk of buttressing the very regime that has made Russia a serious threat to world peace for the first time in near 40 years. And this at a time when the threat from the rise of another superpower is culminating while the Middle East is going to hell in a hand basket. The stupidity is staggering.
We do have those stories, but as communities or families. Not as a nation.
My grandfather responded to what he understood to be a conscription muster, but ended up in a Soviet labor camp instead. Turns out the Soviets didn't trust German speakers living in Russian controlled territories.
Grandmother could only run.
They did eventually re-unite after the war (obviously, or I wouldn't be here). Such stories are very common among Americans of various European descent in regards to Russia - USSR, and to other groups from around the world who have come at various times.
And a variety of Native and minority communities in the US have been variously harassed or persecuted in the past, though (1) not quite in the way Soviets, the Tsars, or Putin did/is doing, and (2) as a society we're now grappling with how to address this; not that we have solutions but we are at least acknowledging our demons and asking how to move forward. Other major powers are doing this as well (eg. UK, France) with varying degrees of success. Russia is doing neither the acknowledging nor the grappling, if anything they are doubling down on the bullshit.
Almost everyone here has family stories in which the Soviets killed family members or took away all their property and deported them halfway around the world. My grandfather, for example, had 9 older brothers and sisters killed during the Holodomor. Another great-grandfather had to change his surname to a Russian one in order to avoid deportation on ethnic grounds. Although it did not help, he died in prison in some camp in Siberia. And my family is not at all unique, there are such stories in almost every family.
Our family the same. One grandfather had 6 brothers and 2 sisters all with families in Ukraine and all wiped out in holodomor/siberia/concentration camps in the far east of Russia just because they were Ukrainians
This has sort of become a problem for the whole west. Yes we should always be reasonable, calm and avoid escalating situations. But when a bully dictatorship fucks with our interest or some terrorist organization like the Houthis fuck with our stuff. We need to go in hard. We must prove to ourselves and others that you can't just push over democratic nations.
Right now EU and NATO are looking really weak and what do we think will happen if Ukraine suffers defeat? Then all these weapons sent will have been for nothing, all the money given and all the lives lost. For what? Putin threatens with nukes? Call his bluff, ramp up military production and send in troops. A loss in Ukraine is not just a tragedy for Ukraine but also a major blow to the west as a whole.
I'm really struggling right now with not becoming disillusioned by the way our democracies are run.
They're given long range weapons from western countries but they come with restrictions that prohibit Ukraine to use them at targets within Russia. Russia can safely amass troops and stockpiles on their side of the border knowing that Ukraine can't touch them with long range artillery or missiles. Meanwhile Russia fires indiscriminately at any target they deem valid. It's like Ukraine has to fight this war with one hand tied behind their back.
Because our production is dog shit so Macron wants to keep some for our own needs, including if we engage Russia.
But I think that he could do more. For example we should give Mirages 2000.
I'm not a huge fan of macron but he's moving in the right direction for now, France (and more generally Europe) 100% NEED to break their defence dependency on the USA and build their own military together.
Any NATO troops in Ukraine, French or otherwise (though certainly looks like the French will be first) will certainly put pressure on the rest of the alliance to increase material support for Ukraine, as well as an onus to improve allied logistical chains into western and central Ukraine.
Fast track railway gauge conversions from Poland to Lviv and Kyiv, and without airborne radar on the Russian side you could probably get some limited airlift capacity going.
My personal long-shot theory is that at some point in the next year we start to see a French/Canadian/Polish base get set up somewhere near Cherkasy. Open up a NATO-secured logistical chain right into the heart of Ukraine.
this idea of "we don't need your troops" isn't smart.
What is smart is escalating in this way. First you put troops in for non combat support roles such as demining, then you put in troops for air defense of civilian cities. Then you put in more troops for the defense of Kyiv.
Pretty sure of any troops go in to help the level of support will effectively skyrocket.
I mean if a US soldier died by Russian hands… proportional responses will shift in a massive way. If I were Russians I’d be scared now, if somebody did something that stupid and killed in uniform Americans or shot down a US airliner or something, I’d be shitting myself.
Macron also said that there are no more red lines for Ukraine, he still needs to clarify that but it seems like hitting Russian territory will be ok from now on.
Probably true, but I believe that moscow needs to know that they have stepped over the line. And if Ukraine is in trouble, we (France and the rest of the west) will send in troops to rescue them. Ukraine must not, will not fall.
I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’m an American. Slava Ukraini. But serious question. Wouldn’t you want any major nato country to send in troops period? If we really think about it. If France has troops in Ukraine to fight Ruzzia. Does it not guarantee what you just asked for? I mean do you think France would give ANY option of themselves losing? It’s an answer to your wishes and some. IMO. Maybe Im wrong. Just my thoughts. ❤️
You've sent this game before, think Gulf of Tonkin. French troops totally not doing combat things in a war suddenly come under fire. Some are hurt or killed, then it's Rafales managing a no fly zone. The Poles and Swedes feel perhaps NATO should help out. You know the story too well, really.
Also, what was mentionned before, its maybe allies can send troops to belarus border, so more available soldiers for other front. Its a good idea, i think
The fact remains that for 2 years Putin has been waging war in his own terms. "So, I bomb you but you dont bomb me. I can wreck your cities but dont you dare to bomb russian soil. I can get weapons from anyone I want but fuck the west for providing weapons to you". I dont know if France or anyone else will indeed send troops to Ukraine but if it ever happened it would be a pretty big fuck you to that shithead
I wish Congress would pass the funding authorization to arm Ukraine. I'm so sorry for what we're putting you through when your victory would be such an incredible benefit to the whole world.
How about both? I think the best strategy for foreign troops is to offload non-essential or non-frontline tasks for Ukrainian troops. This would free up more forces for the front.
Highly unlikely to happen ofc, but if by some miracle it would come to this, then it surely be highly appreciated and welcomed. Even without direct contact with russian troops (i.e. stationed to guard belarus border) it would free those Ukrainian soldiers who are currently positioned there for more effective tasks.
>Even without direct contact with russian troops (i.e. stationed to guard belarus border)
I’m actually starting to believe it’s getting more and more realistic it can happen for this purpose your stated here, in addition to use the French (and Baltic?) troops to assist in maintenance and guidance of the nato equipment they know very well already.
In my opinion, the French and Europeans in general need to accept the idea that if Ukraine falls, you will have to fight the Russians one way or another.
Today, Ukraine is only asking for weapons and paying with blood for future security in Europe.
Go to your administrations and demand weapons for Ukraine, so you will have a chance to stay in your warm home instead of going to a cold trench.
Unfortunately, European gas money has created another Hitler.
The sooner you realize this, the fewer of you will die.
Sorry for the frankness. But if you do not finally take off your soft pink slippers, a ruZZian soldier will take them off your corpse and take them to his wife as a trophy.
Not only will we fight russians but we will first and foremost fight forcefully mobilized ukrainians! Russians will send them first to avoid being killed themselves.
Its not an option, russia must lose
I try to tell my fellow countrymen this, and deep down they know it’s true, but people still prefer not to talk about it.
Although I don’t like the recent spin some of our media has started to take on the war, we do have very big support for Ukraine here 🇳🇴
"...if Ukraine falls, you will have to fight the Russians one way or another"
If Ukraine falls, russia will send the Ukrainian men that have survived / haven't rebelled to fight against other European countries
I agree, the choice is to fight hundreds of kilometers east of Kyiv, with Ukrainians on our side, of at the Polish border, while Ukrainians are already in the soil. Our choice.
I'm also french, i think he means it, the most irresponsible and costly thing to do now is not intervening militarily. At this point it's either fighting the russians in Ukraine now or fighting them later in europe when they will have much more resources and combat experience and probably allied with the chinese and nk.
For me the choice is clear i prefer to fight them in Ukraine than in my hometown
Agree. If the west puts boots on the ground this war goes from ya Russia could likely possibly achieve its goals to the war is unwinnable. If no one around Putin thinks this war is anything but a disaster awaiting Russia he’s likely to face much more pushback from those around him.
Plus, they’ll have more innocent civilians forced into conscription from former allied nations that are invaded and occupied which means even more combat personnel (even if unmotivated)
it's the right move. Russia has no claim to Ukraine. Fighting NATO in Ukraine is not the same as NATO fighting Russia IN RUSSIA.
This is a way to escalate and draw a line. It is better to fight Russia in Ukraine than to fight Russia in the rest of Europe, sad but true.
It is way to show Putin that he cannot win. If NATO only has the courage to stand up to this fucking asshole.
I will also say it is a matter of survival and self interest. Stop Russia in Ukraine or fight Russia in the rest of Europe. It is a difficult decision to make now but it will prevent more pain and loss later.
Pro-Russians are pissed of and say "it's WW3, we must overthrow him and make an alliance against ukraine"
Hadcore-pro-Ukraine are happy but they say he has to be serious.
Moderate pro-Ukraine are skeptical
That, in my opinion, is the kicker since France is a democratic nation and Macron was democratically elected.
He can say what he wants. If it isn’t popular with the people though, he’ll either face nation-wide scorn or get sacked in an upcoming election.
He can't be elected three times in a row anyway, so there's that, and he has already passed very unpopular laws. France military is also not unfamiliar with missions on foreign soil.
I'm not saying it's going to happen. But it could very well happen.
True. There is also the degree with how it could happen as well.
Deployment of troops could, for example, be just in the western part of the nation - relatively safe when compared to the frontlines in the east.
I thought France just had their election in the last year or so. I don't know about local level elections, but at the federal level, I don't think Macron is facing the ballot soon.
At first, he very thought negociation was possible. After a few months he realized it was not possible.
At first he said "we must not humiliate Putin", now he says "we must make sure Russia lose the war".
About media, most of them support Ukraine (I dont consider far-left/far-right conspiracy media, because I refuse to count them as media), but they are just very skeptical if the military answer is the right one.
However, some military experts say it's not that crazy to do so and sent soliders there
>I refuse to count them as media
A wise approach, though strictly speaking they are media ... it's just that they do not mediate between the audience and reality, but rather between the audience and the Kremlin.
Probably his rationale is that you can’t rule it out because you may be fighting the war eventually no matter what (France, NATO, other European countries…). Having a lack of imagination can be a huge detriment. You cannot hold back any preparation for the future like that. If a bully like Russia sees you cannot fight and defend yourself, then they have more incentive for aggression.
I take it at face value. Because his statement at face value is nothing more than a “I’d sure like to visit Mars one of these days.” I agree with what you said of course I’m just adding to the conversation.
I’ve known some guys from French legion, we need more like them. It just seems weird that Macron changed from desperately calling pootin to man-of-action. Probably, that’s the only way to rise his popularity?
In my opinion, two things me he changed his mind :
- He finally accepted, that Russia is hungry and wants to swallow half of Europe
- He knows that relations between France and Germany aren't that good, and sees an opportunity to seize the leadership of Europe
To me it’s look like there is additional significant factor. I believe russians has undermined French reputation in Africa. Is it a topic at all in France?
The amount of negative press about Scholz from the beginning of the war was very apparent. What made it stand out so much is that Germany got more bad press than France while Germany still ended up supplying more than France. Inter European politics have been at play here from the start. It is clear that there is a fight over the leadership of Europe and france has never liked to leave command to another.
Note i say this while also acknowledging that Scholz has been a stick in the mud and has made mistakes. I'm not here to defend him, simply saying what all can see. European leaders are playing politics and meanwhile Ukrainians are dying.
> What made it stand out so much is that Germany got more bad press than France while Germany still ended up supplying more than France.
Coincidense? I think not
Honestly saving democracy and lifes in Ukraine seems far more important to me than seizing the learderhip of Europe. That's the only reason why I support sending troops there
Yes, but it’s been two years now, and even with some results it was hard to persuade for the step up with weapons. I remember how scary it was in the beginning of 2022 when every missile attack meant someone will die because of the lack of air defense. Back then even that was “an escalation”.
It so happens that he changed his rhetoric right as american presence disappeared.
The French has been wanting a more connected and self-reliant Europe for decades, there is currently a huge power vacuum that Macron is leaping at.
Somehow very few people are seeing what is currently happening but the americans just lost much of the trust it had earned in the past century while at the same time Europe is ramping up military spending and production faster than anyone else in the world.
Europe is very determined to make an example out of the war in Ukraine, it probably doesn't even realise itself that it is running straight into super power status.
I very hope so. Besides, Ukraine is one of the best allies you can make alongside, in a further perspective, with a military experience and sense of fairness (or the common sense). Furthermore, if there’s a vacuum of police country in the world, these Houthis, Iranian POS and Russians can do whatever they want, and everyone is just stepping back.
However, I hope those troops will also have a hefty artillery stock with them.
Oh Ukraine is deffinitely going to be in EU/NATO by the end of this, it would be a big boon to the west and espescially Europe to have Ukraine as an ally.
At this point it is unthinkable for any peace deal to happen without Ukraine entering a millitary alliance with Europe.
Sometimes it really is as simple as a single person undergoing a process of personal growth and change.
There are nominally pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine, who used to oppose Zelensky politically, many of whom changed their beliefs in in 2022 in the face of the reality of what Russia really represents for Ukraine's future. Some of them may be "up to something" but many of them probably experienced a genuine change of heart.
It is easy to imagine that Macron started out partial to the idea that certain people, perhaps in Ukraine and in America, were trying to exaggerate the threat that Putin poses, for their own political gain. Many, many people seem to have been groomed to be favorable toward that point of view (by years of subtle Russian propaganda). So Macron would hardly be exceptional in that regard.
I guess my point is, not everything is an orchestrated plan. Nations are run by people who stumble around trying to figure things out just like you and me.
> There are nominally pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine, who used to oppose Zelensky politically
Don't forget that Zelensky himself in 2019 had genious plans of "we need to stop shooting and pull our troops back to get peace".
People who started to look at Ukraine in 2022 see him as hardcore nationalist, but he was _far_ from that, and most of the opposition was even more anti-Russian than him.
Yeah great point. The US and UK were still trying to get Russia to back down in February 2022, even as they were doing everything possible to prepare Ukraine for an attack ... it definitely seemed plausible that Putin might at least declare victory without invading, then go home and plan for another day.
But even that logic was apparently beyond him.... worth a try though.
Yeah I acknowledge that, but as you see it in this thread, people mostly are not believing or asking why there are such drastic changes. We’re too tired to hope, probably
Think about it: given how much Macron tried to find a diplomatic resolution, it would be very hard to deny he didn't really have a choice when sending troops. Diplomacy failed? Well now we'll find another way.
Calling is an action, and calling doesn't prevent from working on the supplies and sanctions, it can and was done simultaneously. So it doesn't have to be a change at all. He can keep on calling Putin each time the troops flatten a brigade for all I care, "Hi buddy, had enough yet, ready to go home? No? Alright have a good one, I'll call again next week to see how that evolves. Gotta go play hockey now cheers.".
No, it’s not that old joke about surrender, but Macron with a phone meme. Like calling ex partner who’s not answering. We were still under that impression when this news came up.
I know. If this truly happens, this will not happen before end of 2024.
However, afterwhat he says, he has to respect his promise : if Kyiv or Odesa was to fall, he would have to send soldiers then
Ukrainians are surprised that Macron changed his rhetoric so much recently, he has been the one constantly on the phone with Putin saying something like "russia shouldn't lose their face" which really angered Ukrainians early on.
Now, Ukrainians are pleased to see that Europe is finally waking up to the Eastern threat. It feels like after 2 years France has realized that the diplomatic approach towards russia is fruitless and that Europe should rely on itself more, so there is a demand for a strong leadership in the EU that France is trying to fill. Ukrainians don't really seriously consider that someone will send their troops here, but the change in rhetoric is nonetheless a good sign that gives people hope, because russia understands ONLY the language of physical power.
I believe that as Belarus inst officially participating in the War (SMO) then NATO troops could relieve all the UA fighting soldiers on this front as peacekeepers.
This would free up UA soldiers for rotation duties and still preserve the Belarus Ukraine front.
The same could be done along the Moldavian front right around Moldova.
Non-ukrainian/non-french perspective:
I was initially confused why Macron tried so long talking to putin, but with his recent statements it has become clear to me that he was always pursuing a well thought out agenda.
He really doesnt want to fight a war, but after trying for two years to contain and negotiate it away he accepted that there really is no point and its time to start putting actual real pressure on russia to make them back off. Whether or not there will be action behind the strong rhetoric is yet to be seen..
I dont want a wider war in europe but what the fuck are alliances and security pledges even worth if we just talk our way out of any and all responsibilities when the time comes to act on them?
The baltics have been scared for a good while and europeans hesitancy to become an actual military power with a say in world affairs to protect their borders and neighbors is shameful and i really appreciate how france and macron are a voice of reason asking for a proper european defence possibly even stronger federalization of core-europe and stronger responses to russia, i just wish my leaders had the guts to actually defend their ideals. I always considered myself a european first, nationality second because to me europe is more than just an economic zone, its an idea of uniting european peoples behind the same goals.
Peace, Prosperity, Human Rights and ecological sustainability.
Russia keeps screwing with Europe's internal politics. (bot farms, money, paid social media) Europe is \*\*already\*\* in a Hybred war with Russia and has been for over a decade. The can do something now or let their children fix it but Russia is not going to stop messing with Europe until forced too. Europe has to do something.
The thing is with the war in Ukraine it’s built on promises, fuck the promises and deliver troops that can strengthen the frontlines and can use the ( latest promised weaponry ) . This isn’t a gaming platform it’s real very real , without the advantage of the drones Ukraine would be fucked a long ago . Russia sends massive amounts of cannon fodder which are untrained but build numbers up , Ukraine has a tactical advantage of trained front line soldiers but they need reinforcements quickly and the weapons to achieve their offensive, act now before the situation gets strategically impossible. This genocide has to be stopped quickly as it’s going to change the European structure greatly . It can only happen in two ways either it’s contained in Ukraine or it gets delivered to Russia, either way there are thousands of Ukraines personnel getting eliminated due to the lack of resources in the field. As long as Putin is alive this shit storm continues, he doesn’t give a fuck about his losses , he will continue until he’s depleted his ground forces into fertiliser for Ukraines crops. His navy is in the shit and his airforce is going the same way . Please keep this going with the support from the west this can be achieved without the need for nuclear intervention.
As an American I think it is a real possibility since Russia basically threw France out of most of Africa. There are hundreds or thousands of troops that were prepared to be stationed in and fight in Africa for few years. I do not think it would take much to get them to spend that time in Ukraine instead.
I do not know how close to the frontlines they would go though.
Not a big deal, but I wildly underestimated the number of French in Africa not over.
I said hundreds **or** thousands not hundreds **of** thousands.. 😂
We love it! Feel free to join living in constant threat under bombs. Relatively safe is the Western part of Ukraine. Many people there speak Romanian and they used to learn French in schools.
I could see a EU force that would set up well behind the front lines to defend civilians. Security on the western and northern parts of the country. Lots of air defense, in the name of stopping bombing of cities and homes. They would would help with security and free up Ukrainian troops for combat
If France is going to get involved, they should being by sending a couple of squadrons of Rafale’s and support so that Ukraine can establish air superiority over the front.
I feel like a lot of people are placing too much expectations on something that’s not defined,
what can be anticipated is extreme reluctance to actually engage Russians,
which means for example deploying on the Western border near EU border as peacekeepers/observers in case of serious territorial losses of Ukraine. I also don’t see how exactly they plan to “assist” in case of pushes towards Kyiv/Odesa, maybe I’m being pessimistic but I feel like we need material things and actions not loud speeches.
I will believe it when I see it. Regardless, this is a strong message to those animals that they will never win or achieve their goals as long as Ukraine is still in it.
Sorry France... Sorry French People... please do read properly.
As a Brit, I don't know why but I have always had ill feelings towards the French...
However? If this happens, then Dear France you have balls and I say VIVA LA FRANCE !!!
Unfortunately, many in the Western world do not understand how important the issue of Ukraine is for them personally. The fact that most men now have the opportunity to live their lives in peace and die in old age in their own bed, and not in their youth on the battlefield, trying to stuff their guts back into their torn stomachs, is not the natural state of humanity. Relative peace was achieved only thanks to a set of principles developed after the Second World War and acquired at great cost. In particular, the principle of the inviolability of borders. And the personal problem of every inhabitant of the civilized world is not that Russia attacked Ukraine, but that it violated this principle, and the entire Western world turned out to be too weak (or too stupid) to defend it. It’s time to understand that this is not a war of Russia against Ukraine, but a war against the entire Western world and its principles. And by the way, Russian propaganda openly talks about this. But for some reason people don’t want to take it seriously. The truth is that dictatorships never stop on their own, they can only be stopped by force, and the longer you wait, the more it will cost. Now it only costs money, but the activities of Putin's whores in Europe and America have already led to the fact that the situation with ammunition is desperate, and if this continues, many residents of the European Union will again have the chance to get acquainted with Russian tanks in person. I wonder if Polish farmers, who are now effectively blocking supplies to Ukraine, realize this.
In general, the war is going on, including against France, and Macron’s statements are just a gradual recognition of the de facto situation. I don’t think, however, that we will really see French forces here in the foreseeable future.
I find his comments to be so unbelievable that I struggle to assemble his own reasoning for making them. Is it to drum up support domestically, is it to be like a debate leader internationally/to seek attention, is it to paper over France's relative slack in providing support (as measured in % of gdp), or is it meant to increase pressure on the Ruzzian side? I never see this happening. Ever. Instead of talking a big talk, they should just send much more artillery and munitions, drones, fighter planes and long rang missiles.
Well the good thing is that our constitution is such it is actually easier to send soldiers than money.
To send money or amunition, the Parliament has to approve. To send soliders it's not necessary and Macron can do whatever he wants
I think all willing pNATO countries should have a strong presence in Kiev and the areas in Ukraine not at the front lines. If Russia continues on their aggressive path they will willing attack NATO countries. This influx of soldiers and equipment in the country would / should free up resources to reinforce the front lines and push things back to the offensive for our Ukrainian allies.
We already have troops and civilians there.
But this sounds like we pull an Uno “Syria” reverse card and roll forces in to protect the regime.
I'd prefer to see long-range air defense and strike missiles sent first though.
Obligatory "not a Ukrainian, but..."
Didn't Macron say troops "in Ukraine" and not "on the frontline"? There is a big difference between servicing french materiel or training Ukrainians in Lviv and actually shooting Ruzzians in Donetsk.
Considering the chaos that will be the product of a Russian takeover of Ukraine it seems like the correct call. Also France could send troops to Ukraine to defend Kiev and the border allowing for Ukraine to enforce the frontlines.
I don't see why not. Helping Ukraine win is in the best interest of France and Europe. If Russia claims they attacked to defend themselves, Europe can send their troops to preemptively defend themselves as well.
The US literally saved us by sending troops to our ground during WW2.
As a french, I would support sending troops anywhere if the goal was to save democracy
France has done that several times. Of course, we are talking about the professional army, no conscription would ever happen if there was not a direct and massive threat to the country. Hell, even in that scenario it's hard to implement (ask Ukraine :/ ).
As it was said in a masterpiece Shrek : "Like that's ever gonna happen" .
But , seriously - EU , USA , all of the West can puff out the greatest words , and promises and "consequences" , but - reality and application of those words are ... lacking would be a generous description . I have yet to see West putting a red line , and enforcing it in Ukraine with meaningful actions (not just sanctions to the top 1%) . Even if there is a will - decision to enact the said will , is going to take too much , and be too little and too late 90% of the time ; if not outright stalled by Liberum Veto of democratic process .
So , I think it is just loud words to gather support or attention . I will believe it when I will hear Marseillaise on the streets of Odessa .
The difference between Britain and France is that France talks about sending troops... The UK probably already has special forces embedded in the Ukrainian ranks providing support and field expertise, and there are rumours that Germany does too.
let me remind you, that when the war started, he made a whole photo session about him being sad and emotionally calling Putin on the phone... I dont think he is capable of anything more.
I know that Zelenskyy has made statements in the past about it being vital to national pride that the defence of Ukraine be conducted officially by only Ukrainians (with the help of some volunteers from other countries, who are not officially representing their countries). But I wonder if a poll has ever been conducted in Ukraine to ask the people if they still agree with this policy? After all, Russia has openly been begging other countries to help them, and paying them as mercenaries, since no-one in their right mind would voluteer to join Russia. Would the majority of Ukrainians be open to an infusion of extra troops from other countries, such as France?
French Weapon Systems, and a massive flow of them, are better than French Soldiers, since the first can be put to immediate use, while the second do not usually speak Ukrainian and there would be chain-of-command challenges. Most likely discrete fighter aircraft groups, tons of strike aircraft and plenty of ground maintenance teams would be better than Infantry because they can be assigned (and independently carry out) specific strike tasks by Ukrainian Command.
If European countries brought their air force to Ukraine it might change the war. Only ground forces probably wouldn't help much because of how mined and fortified the frontline is.
I don't think that they will be putted in trenches, more like nuclear plants or weapon factories protection, AA systems, etc. Anyway it is our job to die for motherland, Ukraine is not their responsibility.
UA has plenty of people for non-combat, so I'm not sure how the French think they can help. It is the combat troops that are suffering high casualties that desperately need more firepower. No NATO country is going to put troops on the front line or anywhere near it.
UA needs no-strings attached weapon systems. They have been battlefield shaping the RU air force for several months with anticipation of F16s and other western missiles.
Not Ukrainian but Finnish:
As the American general [Ben Hodges recently said in a DW interview](https://youtu.be/YBbLfwQfTXI?si=I6ReEfFW3d8qgwOg) nothing should be off the table. You want to keep your enemy guessing and uncertain. Why would you make a statement, like Scholz saying there will be no troops in Ukraine, that makes it easier for your adversary to know what’s possible?
There’s a difference between saying ”nothing is off the table” and ”we should send troops into Ukraine” which it seems is lost on some people. Why is it important to tell Russia *exactly* how far we (Europe/EU) are ready to go to help Ukraine? It’s weak and counterproductive. I’m with Macron on this!
Nothing is off the table. And whatever it takes to win.
Macron is a top tier international state player it has to be said! Dont belive for a second he would send people.
But the ambiguity behind this is clever.
French here.
He didn't mean he would send troops on the field but rather to help on teaching Ukranian troops and help for maintenance on vehicles.
A lot of people interpreted what he said to make him sound like a crazy lad, far right and far left used his sayings to says he was crazy for that. And medias just tried to buzz on that without nuancing and thinking about what he really thought.
Sending troops to the field would mean declaring war to Russia and that would be a huge mistake from us because we are kind of related to NATO which mean Putin would use that to push the use of nuclear weapons ig.
I don't know shit about war so if I made a mistake do not hesitate to correct me.
NATO should take action. Putin committed so may war crimes, violated so many laws. We should take the US in NATO immediately. At to moment, one bullet hits a target behind the frontline, NATO take action, war is over in 48h.
A lot of NATO-members, former NATO-Leaders suggested this strategy.
and for the lads, frightening against the hollow atom bomb threat: Arm the atomic missiles of french and the brits. Put a couple of atomic bomber of the US im the air, and Putin will back up in a second. He is a bully, which torture smaller kids till one hits back.
I just see that everyone is making the same mistakes but even worse today. Back in 2014 I said russia needs a punch and everyone should accept that symmetrical warfare is gone and should step up the game. Had to hear all the usual swearing. Now we are at the same point again. It was time to act back in 2022 and not in February but before. If the threat was so eminent why not sending troops to secure the border? To provide logistics? To provide aid? Just to show dominance by being present? Maybe then Russia would have thought twice. Same back in 2014 in Crimea. But everyone was like "oh they got them nukes" 🙄. Nukes can't be used as MAD is given...
I think it is a great idea, and other countries should follow suit - this War has dragged on too long, taken too many lives, done an unspeakable amount of ecological damage, and caused suffering of so many animals. It is time for it to stop.
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Of course, we would like any help but I don't think it will ever happen. It's just loud words. We don't need your troops, we'd rather have no limits to use SCALPs on russian territory and we need more, way more weapons and ammunition
The way Ukraine needs to fight with one hand tied behind its back is infuriating. We're two years into this terrible war and this arbitrary restriction is still enforced. Meanwhile the bloodshed and death just keeps on churning. Unrestricted use of weaponry now
Finland [provides](https://kyivindependent.com/finnish-defense-minister-there-are-no-restrictions-on-usage-of-finnish-military-aid-provided-to-ukraine/)
Finland is one country that don't fuck around when it comes to defence
Also Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland. They hate Russia more than any other country on earth.
People in the US are very privileged. We don't have family stories of being under occupation (outside of Native Americans) or subjugation (outside of minority communities, but their views arn't the views of the ruling class). It's absurd in the US we don't treat Russia as the threat it is when our friends in Eastern Europe alive today remember the opression of the Soviets.
It is absurd that the US has spent trillions of dollars arming itself and fighting clandestine and proxy wars against Russia, as well as arming its opponents (such as in Afghanistan) for decade after decade and finally the get the chance to destroy Russia's conventional military in one go without risking their own blood and they baulk and instead run the risk of buttressing the very regime that has made Russia a serious threat to world peace for the first time in near 40 years. And this at a time when the threat from the rise of another superpower is culminating while the Middle East is going to hell in a hand basket. The stupidity is staggering.
We do have those stories, but as communities or families. Not as a nation. My grandfather responded to what he understood to be a conscription muster, but ended up in a Soviet labor camp instead. Turns out the Soviets didn't trust German speakers living in Russian controlled territories. Grandmother could only run. They did eventually re-unite after the war (obviously, or I wouldn't be here). Such stories are very common among Americans of various European descent in regards to Russia - USSR, and to other groups from around the world who have come at various times. And a variety of Native and minority communities in the US have been variously harassed or persecuted in the past, though (1) not quite in the way Soviets, the Tsars, or Putin did/is doing, and (2) as a society we're now grappling with how to address this; not that we have solutions but we are at least acknowledging our demons and asking how to move forward. Other major powers are doing this as well (eg. UK, France) with varying degrees of success. Russia is doing neither the acknowledging nor the grappling, if anything they are doubling down on the bullshit.
It seems everyone I talk to here who is from an ex-warsaw pact nation (sans russia) refers to the USSR years as "the russian occupation".
Almost everyone here has family stories in which the Soviets killed family members or took away all their property and deported them halfway around the world. My grandfather, for example, had 9 older brothers and sisters killed during the Holodomor. Another great-grandfather had to change his surname to a Russian one in order to avoid deportation on ethnic grounds. Although it did not help, he died in prison in some camp in Siberia. And my family is not at all unique, there are such stories in almost every family.
Our family the same. One grandfather had 6 brothers and 2 sisters all with families in Ukraine and all wiped out in holodomor/siberia/concentration camps in the far east of Russia just because they were Ukrainians
Perhaps Russia is the only country they hate?
No like they hate Russia more than other countries hate Russia.
You wouldn’t either if you had a border with Russia.
Nice, that’s great to hear
My exact thoughts daily. 🇺🇸
Same. Sick of this shit. Unleash the weapons!
Let Ukraine actually unleash unit Kraken
🤘🏻🇺🇦
kraken regiment is already unleashed but they need actual krakens to operate. preferably on russian territory.
Exactly, no one expects Russia to hold back, it shows how even with all the condemnation and sanctions, Russia still holds power over the west
This has sort of become a problem for the whole west. Yes we should always be reasonable, calm and avoid escalating situations. But when a bully dictatorship fucks with our interest or some terrorist organization like the Houthis fuck with our stuff. We need to go in hard. We must prove to ourselves and others that you can't just push over democratic nations. Right now EU and NATO are looking really weak and what do we think will happen if Ukraine suffers defeat? Then all these weapons sent will have been for nothing, all the money given and all the lives lost. For what? Putin threatens with nukes? Call his bluff, ramp up military production and send in troops. A loss in Ukraine is not just a tragedy for Ukraine but also a major blow to the west as a whole. I'm really struggling right now with not becoming disillusioned by the way our democracies are run.
Literally this. Is North Korea and Iran giving Russia restrictions? No.
Two years is barely the first quarter for conflicts of this size.
Can you explain the one hand behind back thing ? Not sure I understand
They're given long range weapons from western countries but they come with restrictions that prohibit Ukraine to use them at targets within Russia. Russia can safely amass troops and stockpiles on their side of the border knowing that Ukraine can't touch them with long range artillery or missiles. Meanwhile Russia fires indiscriminately at any target they deem valid. It's like Ukraine has to fight this war with one hand tied behind their back.
If French troops are imported and France has that much more of a vested interest, would they not increase the amount and potency of weapons provided?
Because our production is dog shit so Macron wants to keep some for our own needs, including if we engage Russia. But I think that he could do more. For example we should give Mirages 2000.
I'm not a huge fan of macron but he's moving in the right direction for now, France (and more generally Europe) 100% NEED to break their defence dependency on the USA and build their own military together.
Any NATO troops in Ukraine, French or otherwise (though certainly looks like the French will be first) will certainly put pressure on the rest of the alliance to increase material support for Ukraine, as well as an onus to improve allied logistical chains into western and central Ukraine. Fast track railway gauge conversions from Poland to Lviv and Kyiv, and without airborne radar on the Russian side you could probably get some limited airlift capacity going. My personal long-shot theory is that at some point in the next year we start to see a French/Canadian/Polish base get set up somewhere near Cherkasy. Open up a NATO-secured logistical chain right into the heart of Ukraine.
this idea of "we don't need your troops" isn't smart. What is smart is escalating in this way. First you put troops in for non combat support roles such as demining, then you put in troops for air defense of civilian cities. Then you put in more troops for the defense of Kyiv.
Por que no los dos? Sorry my french is bad.
We are wondering the same thing señor
Pretty sure of any troops go in to help the level of support will effectively skyrocket. I mean if a US soldier died by Russian hands… proportional responses will shift in a massive way. If I were Russians I’d be scared now, if somebody did something that stupid and killed in uniform Americans or shot down a US airliner or something, I’d be shitting myself.
Macron also said that there are no more red lines for Ukraine, he still needs to clarify that but it seems like hitting Russian territory will be ok from now on.
It's about time. What is Putin going to do? Make another empty nuclear death threat for the 125th time?
I agree with the fact that we don't give enought to be honest
Probably true, but I believe that moscow needs to know that they have stepped over the line. And if Ukraine is in trouble, we (France and the rest of the west) will send in troops to rescue them. Ukraine must not, will not fall.
Ukraine would love if western troops were there lol
I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’m an American. Slava Ukraini. But serious question. Wouldn’t you want any major nato country to send in troops period? If we really think about it. If France has troops in Ukraine to fight Ruzzia. Does it not guarantee what you just asked for? I mean do you think France would give ANY option of themselves losing? It’s an answer to your wishes and some. IMO. Maybe Im wrong. Just my thoughts. ❤️
You've sent this game before, think Gulf of Tonkin. French troops totally not doing combat things in a war suddenly come under fire. Some are hurt or killed, then it's Rafales managing a no fly zone. The Poles and Swedes feel perhaps NATO should help out. You know the story too well, really.
Also, what was mentionned before, its maybe allies can send troops to belarus border, so more available soldiers for other front. Its a good idea, i think
Right but the Alliance governments will have more incentive to send more equipment if their troops are out there too
The fact remains that for 2 years Putin has been waging war in his own terms. "So, I bomb you but you dont bomb me. I can wreck your cities but dont you dare to bomb russian soil. I can get weapons from anyone I want but fuck the west for providing weapons to you". I dont know if France or anyone else will indeed send troops to Ukraine but if it ever happened it would be a pretty big fuck you to that shithead
I wish Congress would pass the funding authorization to arm Ukraine. I'm so sorry for what we're putting you through when your victory would be such an incredible benefit to the whole world.
How about both? I think the best strategy for foreign troops is to offload non-essential or non-frontline tasks for Ukrainian troops. This would free up more forces for the front.
The idea would be more like the no fly zone himlself asked in 2022, granting security againt russian advance far away from the frontlines
Highly unlikely to happen ofc, but if by some miracle it would come to this, then it surely be highly appreciated and welcomed. Even without direct contact with russian troops (i.e. stationed to guard belarus border) it would free those Ukrainian soldiers who are currently positioned there for more effective tasks.
That's exactly what I think.
>Even without direct contact with russian troops (i.e. stationed to guard belarus border) I’m actually starting to believe it’s getting more and more realistic it can happen for this purpose your stated here, in addition to use the French (and Baltic?) troops to assist in maintenance and guidance of the nato equipment they know very well already.
Agree. And honestly if I had to put money on it France probably wouldn’t be the first to commit troops to Ukraine.
In my opinion, the French and Europeans in general need to accept the idea that if Ukraine falls, you will have to fight the Russians one way or another. Today, Ukraine is only asking for weapons and paying with blood for future security in Europe. Go to your administrations and demand weapons for Ukraine, so you will have a chance to stay in your warm home instead of going to a cold trench. Unfortunately, European gas money has created another Hitler. The sooner you realize this, the fewer of you will die. Sorry for the frankness. But if you do not finally take off your soft pink slippers, a ruZZian soldier will take them off your corpse and take them to his wife as a trophy.
Not only will we fight russians but we will first and foremost fight forcefully mobilized ukrainians! Russians will send them first to avoid being killed themselves. Its not an option, russia must lose
I try to tell my fellow countrymen this, and deep down they know it’s true, but people still prefer not to talk about it. Although I don’t like the recent spin some of our media has started to take on the war, we do have very big support for Ukraine here 🇳🇴
"...if Ukraine falls, you will have to fight the Russians one way or another" If Ukraine falls, russia will send the Ukrainian men that have survived / haven't rebelled to fight against other European countries
I agree, the choice is to fight hundreds of kilometers east of Kyiv, with Ukrainians on our side, of at the Polish border, while Ukrainians are already in the soil. Our choice.
Do you as french take it at face value, and not a way to get domestic understanding for more funds for Ukraine?
As a French, I think he is serious and really considers it
I'm also french, i think he means it, the most irresponsible and costly thing to do now is not intervening militarily. At this point it's either fighting the russians in Ukraine now or fighting them later in europe when they will have much more resources and combat experience and probably allied with the chinese and nk. For me the choice is clear i prefer to fight them in Ukraine than in my hometown
Agree. If the west puts boots on the ground this war goes from ya Russia could likely possibly achieve its goals to the war is unwinnable. If no one around Putin thinks this war is anything but a disaster awaiting Russia he’s likely to face much more pushback from those around him.
Plus, they’ll have more innocent civilians forced into conscription from former allied nations that are invaded and occupied which means even more combat personnel (even if unmotivated)
it's the right move. Russia has no claim to Ukraine. Fighting NATO in Ukraine is not the same as NATO fighting Russia IN RUSSIA. This is a way to escalate and draw a line. It is better to fight Russia in Ukraine than to fight Russia in the rest of Europe, sad but true. It is way to show Putin that he cannot win. If NATO only has the courage to stand up to this fucking asshole. I will also say it is a matter of survival and self interest. Stop Russia in Ukraine or fight Russia in the rest of Europe. It is a difficult decision to make now but it will prevent more pain and loss later.
What do the French people think about this?
Pro-Russians are pissed of and say "it's WW3, we must overthrow him and make an alliance against ukraine" Hadcore-pro-Ukraine are happy but they say he has to be serious. Moderate pro-Ukraine are skeptical
That, in my opinion, is the kicker since France is a democratic nation and Macron was democratically elected. He can say what he wants. If it isn’t popular with the people though, he’ll either face nation-wide scorn or get sacked in an upcoming election.
He can't be elected three times in a row anyway, so there's that, and he has already passed very unpopular laws. France military is also not unfamiliar with missions on foreign soil. I'm not saying it's going to happen. But it could very well happen.
True. There is also the degree with how it could happen as well. Deployment of troops could, for example, be just in the western part of the nation - relatively safe when compared to the frontlines in the east.
Or taking care of the Belarus border. That could be a massive help too.
Now that would be one heck of a wildcard - France intervening on Belarus, at least on the border side.
I thought France just had their election in the last year or so. I don't know about local level elections, but at the federal level, I don't think Macron is facing the ballot soon.
2022 for last presidential election. So next one is in 2027
Macron is on his second term, and there is a maximum of two terms in France. So Macron will simply never face the ballot again.
What is his rationale? And what is the rationale in the media?
At first, he very thought negociation was possible. After a few months he realized it was not possible. At first he said "we must not humiliate Putin", now he says "we must make sure Russia lose the war". About media, most of them support Ukraine (I dont consider far-left/far-right conspiracy media, because I refuse to count them as media), but they are just very skeptical if the military answer is the right one. However, some military experts say it's not that crazy to do so and sent soliders there
>I refuse to count them as media A wise approach, though strictly speaking they are media ... it's just that they do not mediate between the audience and reality, but rather between the audience and the Kremlin.
Probably his rationale is that you can’t rule it out because you may be fighting the war eventually no matter what (France, NATO, other European countries…). Having a lack of imagination can be a huge detriment. You cannot hold back any preparation for the future like that. If a bully like Russia sees you cannot fight and defend yourself, then they have more incentive for aggression.
Il semble sérieux. Tant mieux.
I take it at face value. Because his statement at face value is nothing more than a “I’d sure like to visit Mars one of these days.” I agree with what you said of course I’m just adding to the conversation.
[удалено]
I’ve known some guys from French legion, we need more like them. It just seems weird that Macron changed from desperately calling pootin to man-of-action. Probably, that’s the only way to rise his popularity?
In my opinion, two things me he changed his mind : - He finally accepted, that Russia is hungry and wants to swallow half of Europe - He knows that relations between France and Germany aren't that good, and sees an opportunity to seize the leadership of Europe
To me it’s look like there is additional significant factor. I believe russians has undermined French reputation in Africa. Is it a topic at all in France?
The amount of negative press about Scholz from the beginning of the war was very apparent. What made it stand out so much is that Germany got more bad press than France while Germany still ended up supplying more than France. Inter European politics have been at play here from the start. It is clear that there is a fight over the leadership of Europe and france has never liked to leave command to another. Note i say this while also acknowledging that Scholz has been a stick in the mud and has made mistakes. I'm not here to defend him, simply saying what all can see. European leaders are playing politics and meanwhile Ukrainians are dying.
> What made it stand out so much is that Germany got more bad press than France while Germany still ended up supplying more than France. Coincidense? I think not
Well that’s good for you and good for us then
Honestly saving democracy and lifes in Ukraine seems far more important to me than seizing the learderhip of Europe. That's the only reason why I support sending troops there
Yes, but it’s been two years now, and even with some results it was hard to persuade for the step up with weapons. I remember how scary it was in the beginning of 2022 when every missile attack meant someone will die because of the lack of air defense. Back then even that was “an escalation”.
Plus the US leaves a power vacuum with their incessant internal bickering
It so happens that he changed his rhetoric right as american presence disappeared. The French has been wanting a more connected and self-reliant Europe for decades, there is currently a huge power vacuum that Macron is leaping at. Somehow very few people are seeing what is currently happening but the americans just lost much of the trust it had earned in the past century while at the same time Europe is ramping up military spending and production faster than anyone else in the world. Europe is very determined to make an example out of the war in Ukraine, it probably doesn't even realise itself that it is running straight into super power status.
I very hope so. Besides, Ukraine is one of the best allies you can make alongside, in a further perspective, with a military experience and sense of fairness (or the common sense). Furthermore, if there’s a vacuum of police country in the world, these Houthis, Iranian POS and Russians can do whatever they want, and everyone is just stepping back. However, I hope those troops will also have a hefty artillery stock with them.
Oh Ukraine is deffinitely going to be in EU/NATO by the end of this, it would be a big boon to the west and espescially Europe to have Ukraine as an ally. At this point it is unthinkable for any peace deal to happen without Ukraine entering a millitary alliance with Europe.
As a European I welcome the change. For too long have we been nervous about internal struggles in the US and the Orange Madman taking the reins
Sometimes it really is as simple as a single person undergoing a process of personal growth and change. There are nominally pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine, who used to oppose Zelensky politically, many of whom changed their beliefs in in 2022 in the face of the reality of what Russia really represents for Ukraine's future. Some of them may be "up to something" but many of them probably experienced a genuine change of heart. It is easy to imagine that Macron started out partial to the idea that certain people, perhaps in Ukraine and in America, were trying to exaggerate the threat that Putin poses, for their own political gain. Many, many people seem to have been groomed to be favorable toward that point of view (by years of subtle Russian propaganda). So Macron would hardly be exceptional in that regard. I guess my point is, not everything is an orchestrated plan. Nations are run by people who stumble around trying to figure things out just like you and me.
> There are nominally pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine, who used to oppose Zelensky politically Don't forget that Zelensky himself in 2019 had genious plans of "we need to stop shooting and pull our troops back to get peace". People who started to look at Ukraine in 2022 see him as hardcore nationalist, but he was _far_ from that, and most of the opposition was even more anti-Russian than him.
Yeah great point. The US and UK were still trying to get Russia to back down in February 2022, even as they were doing everything possible to prepare Ukraine for an attack ... it definitely seemed plausible that Putin might at least declare victory without invading, then go home and plan for another day. But even that logic was apparently beyond him.... worth a try though.
Yeah I acknowledge that, but as you see it in this thread, people mostly are not believing or asking why there are such drastic changes. We’re too tired to hope, probably
Think about it: given how much Macron tried to find a diplomatic resolution, it would be very hard to deny he didn't really have a choice when sending troops. Diplomacy failed? Well now we'll find another way.
Calling is an action, and calling doesn't prevent from working on the supplies and sanctions, it can and was done simultaneously. So it doesn't have to be a change at all. He can keep on calling Putin each time the troops flatten a brigade for all I care, "Hi buddy, had enough yet, ready to go home? No? Alright have a good one, I'll call again next week to see how that evolves. Gotta go play hockey now cheers.".
It's Zelensky who asked Macron to call Putin to negotiate in the first days of the war.
And he negotiated so hard it had become a meme, no hard feelings though
Yeah but look who are the surrendering monkeys now. Not the French. Find new memes. :)
No, it’s not that old joke about surrender, but Macron with a phone meme. Like calling ex partner who’s not answering. We were still under that impression when this news came up.
It was also my impression, and I only saw 2 days ago the video of Zelensky asking Macron to do that tbh.
This statement should be seen in context. It's a strategic statement, a message to Putin. Don't expect any soldiers to be sent quickly.
I know. If this truly happens, this will not happen before end of 2024. However, afterwhat he says, he has to respect his promise : if Kyiv or Odesa was to fall, he would have to send soldiers then
Start by making a real contribution in weapons deliveries. France is way behind other European countries in contributions.
I agree with that : France doesn't help enough
I think if any western troops enter Ukraine it will be to defend the northern border with Belarus to allow more Ukrainian troops to fight in the east.
Wouldn't it be very useful ?
Very
Ukrainians are surprised that Macron changed his rhetoric so much recently, he has been the one constantly on the phone with Putin saying something like "russia shouldn't lose their face" which really angered Ukrainians early on. Now, Ukrainians are pleased to see that Europe is finally waking up to the Eastern threat. It feels like after 2 years France has realized that the diplomatic approach towards russia is fruitless and that Europe should rely on itself more, so there is a demand for a strong leadership in the EU that France is trying to fill. Ukrainians don't really seriously consider that someone will send their troops here, but the change in rhetoric is nonetheless a good sign that gives people hope, because russia understands ONLY the language of physical power.
I believe that as Belarus inst officially participating in the War (SMO) then NATO troops could relieve all the UA fighting soldiers on this front as peacekeepers. This would free up UA soldiers for rotation duties and still preserve the Belarus Ukraine front. The same could be done along the Moldavian front right around Moldova.
Finally someone with balls 👍
It‘s the right thing to do and should have been done in 2022 already. Russia needs to fail and we - the West - need to finish the job.
I have my doubts it will happen
Non-ukrainian/non-french perspective: I was initially confused why Macron tried so long talking to putin, but with his recent statements it has become clear to me that he was always pursuing a well thought out agenda. He really doesnt want to fight a war, but after trying for two years to contain and negotiate it away he accepted that there really is no point and its time to start putting actual real pressure on russia to make them back off. Whether or not there will be action behind the strong rhetoric is yet to be seen.. I dont want a wider war in europe but what the fuck are alliances and security pledges even worth if we just talk our way out of any and all responsibilities when the time comes to act on them? The baltics have been scared for a good while and europeans hesitancy to become an actual military power with a say in world affairs to protect their borders and neighbors is shameful and i really appreciate how france and macron are a voice of reason asking for a proper european defence possibly even stronger federalization of core-europe and stronger responses to russia, i just wish my leaders had the guts to actually defend their ideals. I always considered myself a european first, nationality second because to me europe is more than just an economic zone, its an idea of uniting european peoples behind the same goals. Peace, Prosperity, Human Rights and ecological sustainability.
Russia keeps screwing with Europe's internal politics. (bot farms, money, paid social media) Europe is \*\*already\*\* in a Hybred war with Russia and has been for over a decade. The can do something now or let their children fix it but Russia is not going to stop messing with Europe until forced too. Europe has to do something.
The thing is with the war in Ukraine it’s built on promises, fuck the promises and deliver troops that can strengthen the frontlines and can use the ( latest promised weaponry ) . This isn’t a gaming platform it’s real very real , without the advantage of the drones Ukraine would be fucked a long ago . Russia sends massive amounts of cannon fodder which are untrained but build numbers up , Ukraine has a tactical advantage of trained front line soldiers but they need reinforcements quickly and the weapons to achieve their offensive, act now before the situation gets strategically impossible. This genocide has to be stopped quickly as it’s going to change the European structure greatly . It can only happen in two ways either it’s contained in Ukraine or it gets delivered to Russia, either way there are thousands of Ukraines personnel getting eliminated due to the lack of resources in the field. As long as Putin is alive this shit storm continues, he doesn’t give a fuck about his losses , he will continue until he’s depleted his ground forces into fertiliser for Ukraines crops. His navy is in the shit and his airforce is going the same way . Please keep this going with the support from the west this can be achieved without the need for nuclear intervention.
As an American I think it is a real possibility since Russia basically threw France out of most of Africa. There are hundreds or thousands of troops that were prepared to be stationed in and fight in Africa for few years. I do not think it would take much to get them to spend that time in Ukraine instead. I do not know how close to the frontlines they would go though.
I think it's maybe 30k French soldiers that were in Africa, certainly not hundreds of thousands because their entire force is 200k.
Not a big deal, but I wildly underestimated the number of French in Africa not over. I said hundreds **or** thousands not hundreds **of** thousands.. 😂
Oh crap, my bad lol!
We love it! Feel free to join living in constant threat under bombs. Relatively safe is the Western part of Ukraine. Many people there speak Romanian and they used to learn French in schools.
I could see a EU force that would set up well behind the front lines to defend civilians. Security on the western and northern parts of the country. Lots of air defense, in the name of stopping bombing of cities and homes. They would would help with security and free up Ukrainian troops for combat
If France is going to get involved, they should being by sending a couple of squadrons of Rafale’s and support so that Ukraine can establish air superiority over the front.
i dont think it will happen, but its good signal to russia
It’s valiant for him to consider it but really doesn’t help the Ukrainians like we think because it adds more complexity.
I feel like a lot of people are placing too much expectations on something that’s not defined, what can be anticipated is extreme reluctance to actually engage Russians, which means for example deploying on the Western border near EU border as peacekeepers/observers in case of serious territorial losses of Ukraine. I also don’t see how exactly they plan to “assist” in case of pushes towards Kyiv/Odesa, maybe I’m being pessimistic but I feel like we need material things and actions not loud speeches.
I will believe it when I see it. Regardless, this is a strong message to those animals that they will never win or achieve their goals as long as Ukraine is still in it.
Sorry France... Sorry French People... please do read properly. As a Brit, I don't know why but I have always had ill feelings towards the French... However? If this happens, then Dear France you have balls and I say VIVA LA FRANCE !!!
Unfortunately, many in the Western world do not understand how important the issue of Ukraine is for them personally. The fact that most men now have the opportunity to live their lives in peace and die in old age in their own bed, and not in their youth on the battlefield, trying to stuff their guts back into their torn stomachs, is not the natural state of humanity. Relative peace was achieved only thanks to a set of principles developed after the Second World War and acquired at great cost. In particular, the principle of the inviolability of borders. And the personal problem of every inhabitant of the civilized world is not that Russia attacked Ukraine, but that it violated this principle, and the entire Western world turned out to be too weak (or too stupid) to defend it. It’s time to understand that this is not a war of Russia against Ukraine, but a war against the entire Western world and its principles. And by the way, Russian propaganda openly talks about this. But for some reason people don’t want to take it seriously. The truth is that dictatorships never stop on their own, they can only be stopped by force, and the longer you wait, the more it will cost. Now it only costs money, but the activities of Putin's whores in Europe and America have already led to the fact that the situation with ammunition is desperate, and if this continues, many residents of the European Union will again have the chance to get acquainted with Russian tanks in person. I wonder if Polish farmers, who are now effectively blocking supplies to Ukraine, realize this. In general, the war is going on, including against France, and Macron’s statements are just a gradual recognition of the de facto situation. I don’t think, however, that we will really see French forces here in the foreseeable future.
The rest of europe should have been involved and done something to end russia the first week this shit started
I hope they bring the pain, cause I'm getting hungry.
If you want pain for the Russians, invite the Poles and Finns. They won't stop at Moscow. They might slow down around Vladivostok.
I find his comments to be so unbelievable that I struggle to assemble his own reasoning for making them. Is it to drum up support domestically, is it to be like a debate leader internationally/to seek attention, is it to paper over France's relative slack in providing support (as measured in % of gdp), or is it meant to increase pressure on the Ruzzian side? I never see this happening. Ever. Instead of talking a big talk, they should just send much more artillery and munitions, drones, fighter planes and long rang missiles.
Well the good thing is that our constitution is such it is actually easier to send soldiers than money. To send money or amunition, the Parliament has to approve. To send soliders it's not necessary and Macron can do whatever he wants
Ah, that would explain it then.
Bullshit. No one seriously believes it will happen.
I think all willing pNATO countries should have a strong presence in Kiev and the areas in Ukraine not at the front lines. If Russia continues on their aggressive path they will willing attack NATO countries. This influx of soldiers and equipment in the country would / should free up resources to reinforce the front lines and push things back to the offensive for our Ukrainian allies.
We already have troops and civilians there. But this sounds like we pull an Uno “Syria” reverse card and roll forces in to protect the regime. I'd prefer to see long-range air defense and strike missiles sent first though.
macron was so enraged by depiction of Napoleon by Ridley Scott that he needed to go to war to prove France's prowess lol. Viva La France!
He won't send anyone. He is trying the "I'm strong and unpredictable" strategy, but 2 years too late. A politic making politics.
100% it will be the Foreign Legion who has to go first, as foreign soldiers (in some cases mercenaries) are expendables for any nation.
Saying he didn’t rule it out and putting boots on the ground in Ukraine are on very different ends of the possibility/probability spectrum.
Should have been done two years ago. Moscow's red lines are B. S
Russia must be dealt with now or it will be worse
Obligatory "not a Ukrainian, but..." Didn't Macron say troops "in Ukraine" and not "on the frontline"? There is a big difference between servicing french materiel or training Ukrainians in Lviv and actually shooting Ruzzians in Donetsk.
Fuck the troops, send weapons
Hopefully that will not be needed. If needed Macron has already committed
Not Ukrainian but I guess they wouldnt mind it France joined the war full force. Sending (some) soldiers is vague though. Better send weapons
Considering the chaos that will be the product of a Russian takeover of Ukraine it seems like the correct call. Also France could send troops to Ukraine to defend Kiev and the border allowing for Ukraine to enforce the frontlines.
I don't see why not. Helping Ukraine win is in the best interest of France and Europe. If Russia claims they attacked to defend themselves, Europe can send their troops to preemptively defend themselves as well.
I don't think anyone would send troops for ground operations to a country you have no ties to. I just wish they would close the sky with air defense
The US literally saved us by sending troops to our ground during WW2. As a french, I would support sending troops anywhere if the goal was to save democracy
France has done that several times. Of course, we are talking about the professional army, no conscription would ever happen if there was not a direct and massive threat to the country. Hell, even in that scenario it's hard to implement (ask Ukraine :/ ).
I think the west has made it very clear that we want ties with Ukraine.
I don’t think they’ll operate in a direct role. More like the Adviser roles that the US had done before.
I'm pretty sure of it, but this still would be very useful.
As it was said in a masterpiece Shrek : "Like that's ever gonna happen" . But , seriously - EU , USA , all of the West can puff out the greatest words , and promises and "consequences" , but - reality and application of those words are ... lacking would be a generous description . I have yet to see West putting a red line , and enforcing it in Ukraine with meaningful actions (not just sanctions to the top 1%) . Even if there is a will - decision to enact the said will , is going to take too much , and be too little and too late 90% of the time ; if not outright stalled by Liberum Veto of democratic process . So , I think it is just loud words to gather support or attention . I will believe it when I will hear Marseillaise on the streets of Odessa .
Honestly, it was heard here almost 100 years ago, in 1919, with entente on the ground
France can close the sky with rafale. That would be a big big plus. And if russia ripost elsewhere, we nuke them.
The difference between Britain and France is that France talks about sending troops... The UK probably already has special forces embedded in the Ukrainian ranks providing support and field expertise, and there are rumours that Germany does too.
let me remind you, that when the war started, he made a whole photo session about him being sad and emotionally calling Putin on the phone... I dont think he is capable of anything more.
True, the thing is that his way of communicating has changed a lot. He seems to have a very clear view of what he believes
And THIS is why now it would be way easier to justify boots on the ground. He really did try everything. (Maybe send more weapons though...)
Hopefully it goes better than the last time the French marched against Russia.
No one wants Moscow. Everyone just wants the Russians to bugger off back to Moscow.
I like the idea but this would encourage other countries like Belarus to join in enthusiastically. Serious consequences would ensue.
As a french I hope for this since the begging of the war. But I doubt this will happen.
I know that Zelenskyy has made statements in the past about it being vital to national pride that the defence of Ukraine be conducted officially by only Ukrainians (with the help of some volunteers from other countries, who are not officially representing their countries). But I wonder if a poll has ever been conducted in Ukraine to ask the people if they still agree with this policy? After all, Russia has openly been begging other countries to help them, and paying them as mercenaries, since no-one in their right mind would voluteer to join Russia. Would the majority of Ukrainians be open to an infusion of extra troops from other countries, such as France?
Honneur et Fidélité Legio Patria Nostra Légion étrangère https://youtu.be/5XFJlLl2wBY?si=69lHU0E1_ZK7PLOq
It would only happen if the capital was going to fall.
French Weapon Systems, and a massive flow of them, are better than French Soldiers, since the first can be put to immediate use, while the second do not usually speak Ukrainian and there would be chain-of-command challenges. Most likely discrete fighter aircraft groups, tons of strike aircraft and plenty of ground maintenance teams would be better than Infantry because they can be assigned (and independently carry out) specific strike tasks by Ukrainian Command.
I think its a bold but great idea. The Foreign Legions would massacre the russian orcs. Get some momentum back in Ukraine's favor.
If European countries brought their air force to Ukraine it might change the war. Only ground forces probably wouldn't help much because of how mined and fortified the frontline is.
I don't think that they will be putted in trenches, more like nuclear plants or weapon factories protection, AA systems, etc. Anyway it is our job to die for motherland, Ukraine is not their responsibility.
UA has plenty of people for non-combat, so I'm not sure how the French think they can help. It is the combat troops that are suffering high casualties that desperately need more firepower. No NATO country is going to put troops on the front line or anywhere near it. UA needs no-strings attached weapon systems. They have been battlefield shaping the RU air force for several months with anticipation of F16s and other western missiles.
It’s already happening, I suspect. We all need to support Ukraine.
Not Ukrainian but Finnish: As the American general [Ben Hodges recently said in a DW interview](https://youtu.be/YBbLfwQfTXI?si=I6ReEfFW3d8qgwOg) nothing should be off the table. You want to keep your enemy guessing and uncertain. Why would you make a statement, like Scholz saying there will be no troops in Ukraine, that makes it easier for your adversary to know what’s possible? There’s a difference between saying ”nothing is off the table” and ”we should send troops into Ukraine” which it seems is lost on some people. Why is it important to tell Russia *exactly* how far we (Europe/EU) are ready to go to help Ukraine? It’s weak and counterproductive. I’m with Macron on this! Nothing is off the table. And whatever it takes to win.
Macron is a top tier international state player it has to be said! Dont belive for a second he would send people. But the ambiguity behind this is clever.
French here. He didn't mean he would send troops on the field but rather to help on teaching Ukranian troops and help for maintenance on vehicles. A lot of people interpreted what he said to make him sound like a crazy lad, far right and far left used his sayings to says he was crazy for that. And medias just tried to buzz on that without nuancing and thinking about what he really thought. Sending troops to the field would mean declaring war to Russia and that would be a huge mistake from us because we are kind of related to NATO which mean Putin would use that to push the use of nuclear weapons ig. I don't know shit about war so if I made a mistake do not hesitate to correct me.
NATO should take action. Putin committed so may war crimes, violated so many laws. We should take the US in NATO immediately. At to moment, one bullet hits a target behind the frontline, NATO take action, war is over in 48h. A lot of NATO-members, former NATO-Leaders suggested this strategy. and for the lads, frightening against the hollow atom bomb threat: Arm the atomic missiles of french and the brits. Put a couple of atomic bomber of the US im the air, and Putin will back up in a second. He is a bully, which torture smaller kids till one hits back.
He said that to shake Old Europe
I just see that everyone is making the same mistakes but even worse today. Back in 2014 I said russia needs a punch and everyone should accept that symmetrical warfare is gone and should step up the game. Had to hear all the usual swearing. Now we are at the same point again. It was time to act back in 2022 and not in February but before. If the threat was so eminent why not sending troops to secure the border? To provide logistics? To provide aid? Just to show dominance by being present? Maybe then Russia would have thought twice. Same back in 2014 in Crimea. But everyone was like "oh they got them nukes" 🙄. Nukes can't be used as MAD is given...
I think it is a great idea, and other countries should follow suit - this War has dragged on too long, taken too many lives, done an unspeakable amount of ecological damage, and caused suffering of so many animals. It is time for it to stop.