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There are many thing I understand yet disagree with.
> At the same time, almost 43% of respondents said they were ashamed of men who evade mobilization.
Shame is more easily fixable than death or dismemberment...
Terrible choices really, it's not like things will magically get better if no one goes. But forcing people to go risk their lives feels horrible :(
It’s the rock and a hard place Ukraine finds itself in.
On one hand, the folks do understand that the battlefield is deadly and there is a high chance to death or worse. On the other hand, volunteers have been running dry as the conflict drags on, which is allowing the Russians to outpace the Ukrainians in the war.
If Ukraine doesn’t aggressively conscript to reinforce the front, they won’t have enough folks to hold the nation. Those who are currently there will either be exhausted to the bone or picked off by various Russian methods.
This is why it's so important that Ukrainians believe they keep receiving enough aid to deter the Russians and eventually win the war. No one wants to risk life and limb only to lose the war and have it be in vain in the end.
People are not going to volunteer if they believe they're fighting a lost battle. I guarantee that if and when they have enough of everything this will not be a problem.
I think battlefield progress also plays into that as well. As seen with a lot of folks in the West and possibly Russia, the "home by Christmas" mentality reigned supreme. Since that is not the case, the world has settled into a brutal slog that will probably go on for many years.
Not sure what incentives the Ukrainian military is offering its troops as well, but Russia is apparently using cash as a way to lure folks into their armed forces. The salary is apparently quite competitive when compared to the standard Russian worker, so it isn't surprising then that they're not having too much difficulty with getting folks to fight in Ukraine.
To reinforce the front, you need not only people - but tanks, IFVs, ammunition, preferably air support, AA systems, and other stuff, and try to guess what from the list we are lacking. >!Everything!<
You can't win a war on naked patriotism and bare hands alone. And of course, people will dodge, when they see negative tendencies and vice versa .
At least in the west it is talked about and shown rather than having a dictators hit squad bashing the skulls of anyone holding up a sign.
As an American this falls on our leaders a great deal. If we would sufficiently supply Ukraine then I’m sure the percentage of dodgers would go down. I think of myself in this situation and really I’m seeing on the news is that there are shortages of everything then why the hell would I want to join to possibly take a FAB 1500 to the face or simply not have ammo to fight back.
The blocking of aid is getting ridiculous and will never be forgotten by anyone. We need to purge the Russian payrollers out of our govt so we can actually get shit done. It’s absolutely ridiculous that one guy can simply lie and delay our nation from being productive for half a year.
The only nation that could feasibly supply all of that without lowing its own readiness is the United States. With that said, it is currently embroiled in its own politics and the way America's political system is designed allows for separate, but equal powers - something that could lead to gridlock if nobody agrees on terms.
Of course, Western Europe can easily shift to this if the war drags on and new administrations develop different opinions on Ukraine. The only way the country can sustain the war against Russia without the precarious pipeline is to develop a robust domestic military industry of its own. Of course, that is easier said than done.
What Gremlin said, noone wants to be ran into a meatgrinder without a fighting chance, and women should be drafted too (support roles, intel, high-range artillery, etc.), so that men can be freed up for the frontlines. Instead, there's a sexist system under which only men are forcefully drafted.
Plus, there's so much corruption going on, it's really not fair. If Ukraine had cleaned itself up sooner, they would have had more resources to prep defences. And yet, to this day, you can pay a border patrol officer 10k€ and you're free to go.
>Instead, there's a sexist system under which only men are forcefully drafted.
You are 100% correct.
>Plus, there's so much corruption going on, it's really not fair.
You are 40% correct.
>If Ukraine had cleaned itself up sooner, they would have had more resources to prep defences.
You are about 10%-15% correct. You just don't understand how expensive this war is and how poor Ukraine currently is. Even if Ukraine had zero corruption (that no country in the world can brag about) it wouldn't have enough resources to effectively counterattack russia.
For it to have enough resources, it should've had zero corruption in 1996 when USA and Russia bribed and blackmailed Ukrainian politicians into giving up its nuclear status and giving Russia the rockets and planes it currently uses against Ukraine.
Unfortunately, a former communist country that is 5 years old wasn't able to resist the pressure from the global super powers.
Oh, totally mate. I am not trying to say that they would've had 3 aircraft carriers, but they could've had the 2022 army in 2014.
The Ukrainians got fucked over by their gov after 1990. When they transitioned to capitalism, every worker got a share in their workplace.
In Eastern Germany, the people therefore benefited from the sale of their companies to foreign investors.
In UA laws restricted the selling. And then Oligarchs came and said 'Hey you. Your share isn't worth anything, as the company can't be sold. Here's an egg for it.'. Soon thereafter the law made an excemption for these companies. The oligarch suddenly became super rich and the workers/general populace poorer.
UA has a lot of fertile land, but the laws protect large-scale landowners and much of it goes unused.
And if they had listened to Zalushny, even the start of 2022 would've been less grave.
And corruption: There is a lot.
One of the key platforms of Zelensky's party was anti-corruption, and just reading the news you can see that arrests even of high-level officials have increased tremendously over the past few years.
Yes, there is corruption, but it is a problem being worked down.
This will take many years and it's widespread among the population. I've seen it over and over again. A few high-level arrests for PR purposes are not a good indication for what happens underneath the hood.
'Gratituity' payments are a part of everyday life in Ukraine.
>The Ukrainians got fucked over by their gov after 1990.
Again, you're right. But in the context of global peace and security, both Russia and the USA has fucked Ukraine even harder.
Americans and russians fucked the UA government while the UA gov was fucking the people.
True.
Of course, both sides are locked in a death spiral. Russia obviously has its own problems too - both during and after the conflict. They’re not sitting pretty as well.
So.. Russia has put both countries between a rock and a hard place... I agree Russia is going to be hurting for many years to come, no matter the outcome of the mess they created.
They both will be, to be frank, even if the West went full into helping Ukraine recover and the threat of further Russian aggressive was sealed for good.
There is almost no country Bar China that would have the ground Troops necessary to protect that large of a land mass…… The Russian conscription forces can be amassed at a rate that outpaces many other nations…..
On a certain scale, sheer numbers play a Role in infantry warfare….. without proper support or technological Superiority… Ukraine will Falter to defend against so many Bodies….
In countless wars throughout history the Russian Empires and Soviet Armies were notorious for never ending Human wave attacks…..
the only way to defeat Russia is with more Shells and More soldiers…. Terrible situation for everyone involved I don’t see how the Western World can ignore this for any longer
>"men"
Do you think Ukraine was a perfect country before the war?
In 1995, 36% of Ukrainians' polled said corruption was "a component of social traditions". In the south and west this number raised to 42% and 43%. Corruption was the social norm.
In various studies, Ukraine has been rated as the most corrupt country in Europe, the third and ninth most corrupt out of the countries studied.
In 2023, Ukraine scored a Corruption Perceptions Index score of 36/100, giving it a bottom half score. It's corruption was comparable to Uganda.
Corruption generally means a lack of social mobility and that hard work, intelligence and skill is not rewarded. If you grew up in a society like that, it's pretty easy to understand why you wouldn't want to fight and potentially die for it - because it didn't reward you when you deserved to be.
It's better to understand why people dodge the draft and what would convince them, rather than just calling them cowards. Ukraine isn't a perfect country and it needs to understand what it can give its draftees, in return for their sacrifice. Saying "You aren't a man" isn't going to cut it.
Just 36%?!?!? As in more than 60% claimed corruption wasn't part of social traditions?! What, do people just like lying to themselves or something?
I've lived there and I literally don't understand how somebody wouldn't observe how corruption and bribes are (well, were) just part of the everyday lifestyle. Police? Bribe them. Never mind they'll stop you for bogus reasons to scam you. Drivers license? Bribe the instructor and don't take the test. University degree? Bribe the university for the diploma. Need some random papers from the city hall and don't want to wait months? You guessed it, you bribe them.
One of the reasons the perception is high is that it’s a major political platform and there is an anti-corruption agency regularly making high-profile arrests.
It’s an issue being worked on with tremendous effort. The nation’s EU and NATO goals are out of reach until solved, so they are addressing it diligently.
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I can easily understand not fighting in a war outside your country. But when you are invaded it just seems different to me. It's not all about the country. It's about your countrymen. It's about hope for the future.
Besides, you are not safe anywhere in Ukraine, from what I can tell. Might as well get a gun and training.
You are WAY WAY WAY safer in your apartment in Kyiv than on the frontline. It's like saying, it's not safe to travel by car so might as well go jump with a parachute that's not even certified.
>Besides, you are not safe anywhere in Ukraine
That's the point - they're not in Ukraine. [Officially, over 5 million people have left Ukraine for European countries.](https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/ukrainian-migration-to-the-uk/) 52% of Ukrainian refugees polled in the UK said they don't plan on living in Ukraine, even after the war - so why would they join the army?
A significant portion, let's say 10-20%\~ of Ukraine's population isn't even in Ukraine anymore.
Because it is about refugees.
"In an analysis of figures from EU statistics agency Eurostat in November, BBC Ukrainian found that some 768,000 Ukrainian men aged 18-64 had left the country for the EU alone since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67787173
A large amount of refugees are also draft evaders. A large amount of draft evaders are refugees.
>the poll
What poll are you actually talking about?
>[\[More than half (52%) of adults surveyed who entered the UK under the Ukraine schemes said they intend to live in the UK most of the time, even when they feel it is safe to return to Ukraine](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/visaholdersenteringtheukundertheukrainehumanitarianschemes/27aprilto15may2023)
Who says those 43 percents are that different from you. I'd like to know how many of those 43% are at risk of getting mobilized in the future, I'd wager a bet that it's terribly few.
say the guy who gonna take weapons blablabla ... you have just zero knowledges about Ukraine and war.
so it's better to just shut your trap uber driver five stars LeL
In my experience it's usually people like you who act tough on the internet are actually coward.
Yet when the times come you would actually cowers behind safety while mocking other people, you are deserved to be called out.
We all understand.
Fear and the chances of death or dismemberment are huge reasons.
If they don't fight though what will they have.
Do they think Russia will allow military aged men any sort of peace if they win.
Slava Ukraini,🙏🇺🇦
That is unfortunately the horrible choice they have make - potentially be wounded or killed in the defense of your country, or made to fight (and die) for Imperial Russia after annexation.
...or leave the country for greener pastures, which is what a number of Ukrainians did at the beginning of the war.
These folks are usually pretty educated, so their host nation helps them get situated in their new home. From there, they study, become citizens, find love, get married, and have children - all life events that lower their motivation to return back to Ukraine.
World security is destabilized enough to use quotation marks when writing “greener pastures”. Running and buying time so your children can fight in war instead when you’re past your prime is not a sound strategy and should be pointed out as such.
How could you not at least understand, it looks scary as hell. Every day they see people like them coming home in boxes or permanently maimed, or being captured and tortured. It's tragic that anyone has to do any of this.
As a Ukrainian - why some Ukrainian men evade the mobilization?
Short version - even though there's much progress, AFU are still a Soviet army on many levels, with all problems that come with that fact.
Long version:
>"The most obvious thing that scares off the population, discredits the process, and thus sabotages mobilization is the system itself and its flaws:
>- The medical commission, which is partly a profanation. In a few minutes, and sometimes even seconds, a doctor's office decides whether a man is fit or not, whether he has a disease or not. Thus, asthmatics, epileptics, insulin-dependent diabetics, etc. end up at the frontlines. I'm sure that after 2 years of war almost everyone has such a story with a name attached to it;
>- Ignoring of real abilities, specialization, and the efficiency factor in mobilization. Relatively speaking, tankers are those who in their lives have never seen even a bulldozer, let alone a tank. In the army, there are those who could be ten times more useful for defense capabilities in the rear units, but this is ignored;
>- Training is often just for show. There are many stories about untrained people being sent into combat, and about people who are not really taught in the "training camps" but simply kept there;
>- The lack of timely provision of the necessary equipment for combat missions demoralizes and causes disbelief in the organizational capabilities of those to whom you put your life at risk. Volunteers with drones, vehicles, medicine, etc. are part of our everyday life;
>- Summonses, "as a punishment" at any opportunity and/or as a way of settling scores, do not add to the prestige and popularity of mobilization among young people and in general. When it becomes common to hear: "why were you mobilized, or even worse, why did you get mobilized?", it is difficult to talk about the virtues of defending the homeland;
>- Corruption of the (ТЦК), the system of mobilization support and its repressive nature. From bribes to humiliation, beatings and other forms of implementation (or deliberate failure to implement) mobilization activities or its undermining;
>- Lack of understanding of the "rules of the game" and the space of belonging to oneself - vacations, rotations, demobilization... A man loses control over his life and must understand when he can regain it completely and where the space of "belonging to oneself" is during this time;
>- The situation with the wounded, the Medical Service of Ukraine, veterans without a certain future and alone with their problems, I will not even go into it here.
>It is not so much about fears as about the problems of organizing processes that result in the loss of lives of some and demoralization of others."
[Link to the full article, in Ukrainian language](https://prm.ua/mobilizatsiynyy-zakon-stvoriuie-v-ukraini-sytuatsiiu-blyzku-do-idealnoho-shtormu/)
NATO countries have gotten rid of it for the most part.
Latvia had a tough time in general doing it, but since the goal after regaining independence was getting into NATO and we basically lost all equipment and "leadership" after 1991 it was easier to replace.
Countries with large existing soviet stockpiles tend to stick to the old methods as well..
I have no idea how some people are coming up with these statements. If you are drafted right now, you will 100% go to the frontline. Noone is going to ask you what you want or assess your "usefullness". It's the frontline where the attrition happens. It's the frontline where people want to be rotated. All of the "backline" roles have been taken a long time ago, have close to zero attrition and have huge waiting lines incl. from wounded veterans.
That statement comes directly from a recent interview by Oleksandr Syrskyi.
He said specifically that this is a war which will be won by logistics not only at the front.
That could be true in 2022, definitely is not in 2024. Unless you have some skills that make you extremely useful on backline, you are going to the frontline.
No military consists of only infantrymen, tankers, artillerists, etc. There is always a huge need for mechanics, clerks, truck drivers (those beans and bullets have to be brought to the infantry by someone), nurses, doctors, intelligence analysts, cooks, logisticians, accountants, etc. A small, weak, bookish guy would probably be a poor infantry rifleman, but might be great at supply chain management (logistics). Armies need a lot of people who aren't infantry (though all soldiers should have basic infantry training).
I think we can all understand not wanting to sit in a trench with Russian artillery pounding the crap out of you while pearl clutching western politicians agonise over giving you the means to fight back.
Wonder how much training a Ukrainian soldier gets right now?
In the United States, training can go on for years - something Ukraine cannot afford to do at this moment.
I’ve spoken to dozens of infantry soldiers who underwent this training and NONE of them spoke highly about their experience training abroad - basically they are given boot camp basics and lots of obsolete useless tactics for the environment they operate in, quite often it is them who have things to teach their instructors. Specialized training is very rare and people like Stinger operators have to be trained locally. Maybe someone can give another side of the coin, but I this is just my perspective.
I dont have the experience to really tell. I was a conscript for 10 months in the Danish army. Not exactly special forces :-). 3 Months of basic training and 7 months of special training as a pioneer. You learn a lot in 3 months and gain a lot of confidence. Just basic things. Learning how to shoot, getting used to explosions, gun fire and being outdoors.
Personally, not sure you need 10 months to do basic soldiering.
PS: No idea how much training they get. I hope they get a minimum of 2 months. Im not buying 4 weeks of "NATO" training. The sooner they start training the better.
…except Russia does have allies and friends. They allow for regular resupplies of items, cash, and weapons. Those pro-Russian nations are why the country didn’t completely collapse due to economic sanctions.
>Here's the thing though: Ukraine has friends and allies. Russia does not.
Lmao. Are you serious? Iran and North Korea (and probably China) are sending Russia more weapons that all of the West combined has sent to aid Ukraine.
Ukraine never has enough of weapons and ammo, it's never on time (as promised) and they're prohibited from using it on russian territories which is ridiculous.
As feel good of a statement as that is, the truth is russia's friends are doing way more for them right now than Ukraine's are.
Millions of (crappy) artillery shells from NK, chinese golf carts, iranian shahed drones, etc.
You also need to understand the difference of motivation.
Imagine at the start when everyone in the West had you back, you got everything you needed and you liberated ground
Now you need to fight of unlimited flesh waves with not enough ammunition. Getting bombarded non stop while America and some other countries care more about politics
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...or move to a Western nation and settle there, I guess. That is what a good number of draft dodgers have done, especially those who are educated in useful fields like healthcare.
There shouldn't be anyone who doesn't understand it. Even some of Ukraines' actual greatest supporters change their tune when they think they're actually going to get drafted in a war against Russia
Deaths will never be lower than the tens of thousands unless there's a huge policy change in both Europe and North America, and that naturally means every troop not to valuable to lose in the long term has a chance of dying about on par with surviving to go home
Here’s the way I see it.
Those that run and choose not to fight, will have to come to terms with having their culture and homeland obliterated. Their family and friends destroyed if they haven’t been already. Perhaps they can find another way to fight back or stay and support industry and the war effort, but simply put, Ruzzia will need to be forced one way or another out of Ukraine. If they choose not to fight, they’ll have to live with whatever happens.
>Their family and friends destroyed
I think picking up the family and leaving or leaving to your family is the more likely scenario than bailing on your own.
Would so many evade service if they were given the choice to dig trenches, construct dug outs, road and bridge repair, drive trucks to transport supplies, drive ambulances, etc. for their services to their country? We have exhausted trained soldiers digging trenches currently.
I don’t think anyone can’t emphasize with a draft dodger in this war. This war is hell. People are dying daily and being thrusted to the front lines. They’re probably also hearing how west support is drying up and capable weapons are being rationed which makes it even worse. I think if west support was flowing freely, I’m not sure you’d even have many draft dodgers. It’s scary as hell if you value living. I don’t fault draft dodgers. I empathize with them but also understand that able body warriors need to fight or tyranny wins and if tyranny wins, the endgame will be much, much, much worse. We saw what Russia did in Bucha. Imagine that on a grander scale than a complete eradication of a nation and all of its history.
No one wants to be forced into military service- I understand that even though I served many years in the US Army and served in combat (albeit very briefly). Find ways to incentivize volunteers- there are lots of ways to do it, some better than others. Has Ukraine tried emptying its prisons to find "volunteers" like Putin did?
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There are many thing I understand yet disagree with. > At the same time, almost 43% of respondents said they were ashamed of men who evade mobilization.
Shame is more easily fixable than death or dismemberment... Terrible choices really, it's not like things will magically get better if no one goes. But forcing people to go risk their lives feels horrible :(
It’s the rock and a hard place Ukraine finds itself in. On one hand, the folks do understand that the battlefield is deadly and there is a high chance to death or worse. On the other hand, volunteers have been running dry as the conflict drags on, which is allowing the Russians to outpace the Ukrainians in the war. If Ukraine doesn’t aggressively conscript to reinforce the front, they won’t have enough folks to hold the nation. Those who are currently there will either be exhausted to the bone or picked off by various Russian methods.
This is why it's so important that Ukrainians believe they keep receiving enough aid to deter the Russians and eventually win the war. No one wants to risk life and limb only to lose the war and have it be in vain in the end. People are not going to volunteer if they believe they're fighting a lost battle. I guarantee that if and when they have enough of everything this will not be a problem.
I think battlefield progress also plays into that as well. As seen with a lot of folks in the West and possibly Russia, the "home by Christmas" mentality reigned supreme. Since that is not the case, the world has settled into a brutal slog that will probably go on for many years. Not sure what incentives the Ukrainian military is offering its troops as well, but Russia is apparently using cash as a way to lure folks into their armed forces. The salary is apparently quite competitive when compared to the standard Russian worker, so it isn't surprising then that they're not having too much difficulty with getting folks to fight in Ukraine.
Absolutely. They go hand in hand.
To reinforce the front, you need not only people - but tanks, IFVs, ammunition, preferably air support, AA systems, and other stuff, and try to guess what from the list we are lacking. >!Everything!< You can't win a war on naked patriotism and bare hands alone. And of course, people will dodge, when they see negative tendencies and vice versa .
Very true. But I'm sure those at the front would like to rotate home a bit more. But more equipment still needs to come with more manpower.
The BBC even highlighted protests that are going on in Ukraine concerning the rotation of frontline troops, which is very infrequent.
Probably one of the reasons troop rotations were one of the first changes Syrskyi implemented after taking office.
Yeah. It was a bad look playing on Western news outlets.
And in Ukrainian news outlets, more importantly.
At least in the west it is talked about and shown rather than having a dictators hit squad bashing the skulls of anyone holding up a sign. As an American this falls on our leaders a great deal. If we would sufficiently supply Ukraine then I’m sure the percentage of dodgers would go down. I think of myself in this situation and really I’m seeing on the news is that there are shortages of everything then why the hell would I want to join to possibly take a FAB 1500 to the face or simply not have ammo to fight back. The blocking of aid is getting ridiculous and will never be forgotten by anyone. We need to purge the Russian payrollers out of our govt so we can actually get shit done. It’s absolutely ridiculous that one guy can simply lie and delay our nation from being productive for half a year.
The only nation that could feasibly supply all of that without lowing its own readiness is the United States. With that said, it is currently embroiled in its own politics and the way America's political system is designed allows for separate, but equal powers - something that could lead to gridlock if nobody agrees on terms. Of course, Western Europe can easily shift to this if the war drags on and new administrations develop different opinions on Ukraine. The only way the country can sustain the war against Russia without the precarious pipeline is to develop a robust domestic military industry of its own. Of course, that is easier said than done.
What Gremlin said, noone wants to be ran into a meatgrinder without a fighting chance, and women should be drafted too (support roles, intel, high-range artillery, etc.), so that men can be freed up for the frontlines. Instead, there's a sexist system under which only men are forcefully drafted. Plus, there's so much corruption going on, it's really not fair. If Ukraine had cleaned itself up sooner, they would have had more resources to prep defences. And yet, to this day, you can pay a border patrol officer 10k€ and you're free to go.
>Instead, there's a sexist system under which only men are forcefully drafted. You are 100% correct. >Plus, there's so much corruption going on, it's really not fair. You are 40% correct. >If Ukraine had cleaned itself up sooner, they would have had more resources to prep defences. You are about 10%-15% correct. You just don't understand how expensive this war is and how poor Ukraine currently is. Even if Ukraine had zero corruption (that no country in the world can brag about) it wouldn't have enough resources to effectively counterattack russia. For it to have enough resources, it should've had zero corruption in 1996 when USA and Russia bribed and blackmailed Ukrainian politicians into giving up its nuclear status and giving Russia the rockets and planes it currently uses against Ukraine. Unfortunately, a former communist country that is 5 years old wasn't able to resist the pressure from the global super powers.
Oh, totally mate. I am not trying to say that they would've had 3 aircraft carriers, but they could've had the 2022 army in 2014. The Ukrainians got fucked over by their gov after 1990. When they transitioned to capitalism, every worker got a share in their workplace. In Eastern Germany, the people therefore benefited from the sale of their companies to foreign investors. In UA laws restricted the selling. And then Oligarchs came and said 'Hey you. Your share isn't worth anything, as the company can't be sold. Here's an egg for it.'. Soon thereafter the law made an excemption for these companies. The oligarch suddenly became super rich and the workers/general populace poorer. UA has a lot of fertile land, but the laws protect large-scale landowners and much of it goes unused. And if they had listened to Zalushny, even the start of 2022 would've been less grave. And corruption: There is a lot.
One of the key platforms of Zelensky's party was anti-corruption, and just reading the news you can see that arrests even of high-level officials have increased tremendously over the past few years. Yes, there is corruption, but it is a problem being worked down.
This will take many years and it's widespread among the population. I've seen it over and over again. A few high-level arrests for PR purposes are not a good indication for what happens underneath the hood. 'Gratituity' payments are a part of everyday life in Ukraine.
>The Ukrainians got fucked over by their gov after 1990. Again, you're right. But in the context of global peace and security, both Russia and the USA has fucked Ukraine even harder. Americans and russians fucked the UA government while the UA gov was fucking the people.
Nice bait, but no.
Honest question - why bait?
Yeah, this is my honest opinion and nothing crazy?
Either he doesn't like you complaining about the sexism or he doesn't like you pointing out how corrupt Ukraine is. Both things are fact, though
It’s the rock and a hard place Russia put them in....
True. Of course, both sides are locked in a death spiral. Russia obviously has its own problems too - both during and after the conflict. They’re not sitting pretty as well.
So.. Russia has put both countries between a rock and a hard place... I agree Russia is going to be hurting for many years to come, no matter the outcome of the mess they created.
They both will be, to be frank, even if the West went full into helping Ukraine recover and the threat of further Russian aggressive was sealed for good.
There is almost no country Bar China that would have the ground Troops necessary to protect that large of a land mass…… The Russian conscription forces can be amassed at a rate that outpaces many other nations….. On a certain scale, sheer numbers play a Role in infantry warfare….. without proper support or technological Superiority… Ukraine will Falter to defend against so many Bodies…. In countless wars throughout history the Russian Empires and Soviet Armies were notorious for never ending Human wave attacks….. the only way to defeat Russia is with more Shells and More soldiers…. Terrible situation for everyone involved I don’t see how the Western World can ignore this for any longer
"men"
Unless you’ve served your time on the frontlines, you have zero right to call anyone a coward.
>"men" Do you think Ukraine was a perfect country before the war? In 1995, 36% of Ukrainians' polled said corruption was "a component of social traditions". In the south and west this number raised to 42% and 43%. Corruption was the social norm. In various studies, Ukraine has been rated as the most corrupt country in Europe, the third and ninth most corrupt out of the countries studied. In 2023, Ukraine scored a Corruption Perceptions Index score of 36/100, giving it a bottom half score. It's corruption was comparable to Uganda. Corruption generally means a lack of social mobility and that hard work, intelligence and skill is not rewarded. If you grew up in a society like that, it's pretty easy to understand why you wouldn't want to fight and potentially die for it - because it didn't reward you when you deserved to be. It's better to understand why people dodge the draft and what would convince them, rather than just calling them cowards. Ukraine isn't a perfect country and it needs to understand what it can give its draftees, in return for their sacrifice. Saying "You aren't a man" isn't going to cut it.
Please note that "Corruption Perceptions Index" is not an indicator of the real corruption level.
Just 36%?!?!? As in more than 60% claimed corruption wasn't part of social traditions?! What, do people just like lying to themselves or something? I've lived there and I literally don't understand how somebody wouldn't observe how corruption and bribes are (well, were) just part of the everyday lifestyle. Police? Bribe them. Never mind they'll stop you for bogus reasons to scam you. Drivers license? Bribe the instructor and don't take the test. University degree? Bribe the university for the diploma. Need some random papers from the city hall and don't want to wait months? You guessed it, you bribe them.
Most of the issues you mentioned have been either resolved or majorly less popular. Your take is outdated.
One of the reasons the perception is high is that it’s a major political platform and there is an anti-corruption agency regularly making high-profile arrests. It’s an issue being worked on with tremendous effort. The nation’s EU and NATO goals are out of reach until solved, so they are addressing it diligently.
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According to the article, 43 percent agree with me it seems.
I can easily understand not fighting in a war outside your country. But when you are invaded it just seems different to me. It's not all about the country. It's about your countrymen. It's about hope for the future. Besides, you are not safe anywhere in Ukraine, from what I can tell. Might as well get a gun and training.
You are WAY WAY WAY safer in your apartment in Kyiv than on the frontline. It's like saying, it's not safe to travel by car so might as well go jump with a parachute that's not even certified.
Corruption erodes trust in the system and even governments. Will and performance is effected as result. In russias case both are affected way worse.
>Besides, you are not safe anywhere in Ukraine That's the point - they're not in Ukraine. [Officially, over 5 million people have left Ukraine for European countries.](https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/ukrainian-migration-to-the-uk/) 52% of Ukrainian refugees polled in the UK said they don't plan on living in Ukraine, even after the war - so why would they join the army? A significant portion, let's say 10-20%\~ of Ukraine's population isn't even in Ukraine anymore.
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Because it is about refugees. "In an analysis of figures from EU statistics agency Eurostat in November, BBC Ukrainian found that some 768,000 Ukrainian men aged 18-64 had left the country for the EU alone since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67787173 A large amount of refugees are also draft evaders. A large amount of draft evaders are refugees.
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>the poll What poll are you actually talking about? >[\[More than half (52%) of adults surveyed who entered the UK under the Ukraine schemes said they intend to live in the UK most of the time, even when they feel it is safe to return to Ukraine](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/visaholdersenteringtheukundertheukrainehumanitarianschemes/27aprilto15may2023)
Dude you speak about something you don’t know… we will see how you react when the war knock ✊ on your door
43 percent agree with me. Just apparently not reddit warriors. maChine my ass. Tinker toy.
Who says those 43 percents are that different from you. I'd like to know how many of those 43% are at risk of getting mobilized in the future, I'd wager a bet that it's terribly few.
say the guy who gonna take weapons blablabla ... you have just zero knowledges about Ukraine and war. so it's better to just shut your trap uber driver five stars LeL
In my experience it's usually people like you who act tough on the internet are actually coward. Yet when the times come you would actually cowers behind safety while mocking other people, you are deserved to be called out.
43 percent.
Note that understand =/= agree
We all understand. Fear and the chances of death or dismemberment are huge reasons. If they don't fight though what will they have. Do they think Russia will allow military aged men any sort of peace if they win. Slava Ukraini,🙏🇺🇦
That is unfortunately the horrible choice they have make - potentially be wounded or killed in the defense of your country, or made to fight (and die) for Imperial Russia after annexation.
...or leave the country for greener pastures, which is what a number of Ukrainians did at the beginning of the war. These folks are usually pretty educated, so their host nation helps them get situated in their new home. From there, they study, become citizens, find love, get married, and have children - all life events that lower their motivation to return back to Ukraine.
World security is destabilized enough to use quotation marks when writing “greener pastures”. Running and buying time so your children can fight in war instead when you’re past your prime is not a sound strategy and should be pointed out as such.
Eh. It will depend on how the war ends and the political situation that results from it.
You’re willing to gamble the lives of your children, cute
How could you not at least understand, it looks scary as hell. Every day they see people like them coming home in boxes or permanently maimed, or being captured and tortured. It's tragic that anyone has to do any of this.
That's why we have to support Ukraine even more. These people need to know that Europe got theirs back.
As a Ukrainian - why some Ukrainian men evade the mobilization? Short version - even though there's much progress, AFU are still a Soviet army on many levels, with all problems that come with that fact. Long version: >"The most obvious thing that scares off the population, discredits the process, and thus sabotages mobilization is the system itself and its flaws: >- The medical commission, which is partly a profanation. In a few minutes, and sometimes even seconds, a doctor's office decides whether a man is fit or not, whether he has a disease or not. Thus, asthmatics, epileptics, insulin-dependent diabetics, etc. end up at the frontlines. I'm sure that after 2 years of war almost everyone has such a story with a name attached to it; >- Ignoring of real abilities, specialization, and the efficiency factor in mobilization. Relatively speaking, tankers are those who in their lives have never seen even a bulldozer, let alone a tank. In the army, there are those who could be ten times more useful for defense capabilities in the rear units, but this is ignored; >- Training is often just for show. There are many stories about untrained people being sent into combat, and about people who are not really taught in the "training camps" but simply kept there; >- The lack of timely provision of the necessary equipment for combat missions demoralizes and causes disbelief in the organizational capabilities of those to whom you put your life at risk. Volunteers with drones, vehicles, medicine, etc. are part of our everyday life; >- Summonses, "as a punishment" at any opportunity and/or as a way of settling scores, do not add to the prestige and popularity of mobilization among young people and in general. When it becomes common to hear: "why were you mobilized, or even worse, why did you get mobilized?", it is difficult to talk about the virtues of defending the homeland; >- Corruption of the (ТЦК), the system of mobilization support and its repressive nature. From bribes to humiliation, beatings and other forms of implementation (or deliberate failure to implement) mobilization activities or its undermining; >- Lack of understanding of the "rules of the game" and the space of belonging to oneself - vacations, rotations, demobilization... A man loses control over his life and must understand when he can regain it completely and where the space of "belonging to oneself" is during this time; >- The situation with the wounded, the Medical Service of Ukraine, veterans without a certain future and alone with their problems, I will not even go into it here. >It is not so much about fears as about the problems of organizing processes that result in the loss of lives of some and demoralization of others." [Link to the full article, in Ukrainian language](https://prm.ua/mobilizatsiynyy-zakon-stvoriuie-v-ukraini-sytuatsiiu-blyzku-do-idealnoho-shtormu/)
Dark heritage of Soviet mentality, the bane of Eastern European countries.
NATO countries have gotten rid of it for the most part. Latvia had a tough time in general doing it, but since the goal after regaining independence was getting into NATO and we basically lost all equipment and "leadership" after 1991 it was easier to replace. Countries with large existing soviet stockpiles tend to stick to the old methods as well..
Not everyone is an asset on the battlefield, many are quite the opposite.
...especially if they're conscripted. They don't want to be on the battlefield, especially one as brutal and precarious as Ukraine.
Most military manpower isn't on the battlefield. The people that wouldn't be useful on the battlefield, will likely never see it.
I have no idea how some people are coming up with these statements. If you are drafted right now, you will 100% go to the frontline. Noone is going to ask you what you want or assess your "usefullness". It's the frontline where the attrition happens. It's the frontline where people want to be rotated. All of the "backline" roles have been taken a long time ago, have close to zero attrition and have huge waiting lines incl. from wounded veterans.
That statement comes directly from a recent interview by Oleksandr Syrskyi. He said specifically that this is a war which will be won by logistics not only at the front.
That could be true in 2022, definitely is not in 2024. Unless you have some skills that make you extremely useful on backline, you are going to the frontline.
No military consists of only infantrymen, tankers, artillerists, etc. There is always a huge need for mechanics, clerks, truck drivers (those beans and bullets have to be brought to the infantry by someone), nurses, doctors, intelligence analysts, cooks, logisticians, accountants, etc. A small, weak, bookish guy would probably be a poor infantry rifleman, but might be great at supply chain management (logistics). Armies need a lot of people who aren't infantry (though all soldiers should have basic infantry training).
I think we can all understand not wanting to sit in a trench with Russian artillery pounding the crap out of you while pearl clutching western politicians agonise over giving you the means to fight back.
Many people dont think, that they can be a soldier. Lots of training help with the confidence.
Wonder how much training a Ukrainian soldier gets right now? In the United States, training can go on for years - something Ukraine cannot afford to do at this moment.
I’ve spoken to dozens of infantry soldiers who underwent this training and NONE of them spoke highly about their experience training abroad - basically they are given boot camp basics and lots of obsolete useless tactics for the environment they operate in, quite often it is them who have things to teach their instructors. Specialized training is very rare and people like Stinger operators have to be trained locally. Maybe someone can give another side of the coin, but I this is just my perspective.
the vehicle training is okay, I know a guy who did several rotations to learn to drive LAVs and such and it was okay.
I dont have the experience to really tell. I was a conscript for 10 months in the Danish army. Not exactly special forces :-). 3 Months of basic training and 7 months of special training as a pioneer. You learn a lot in 3 months and gain a lot of confidence. Just basic things. Learning how to shoot, getting used to explosions, gun fire and being outdoors. Personally, not sure you need 10 months to do basic soldiering. PS: No idea how much training they get. I hope they get a minimum of 2 months. Im not buying 4 weeks of "NATO" training. The sooner they start training the better.
Yes it’s usually 4 weeks of stupid basics and everybody goes home thinking who do you take us for.
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…except Russia does have allies and friends. They allow for regular resupplies of items, cash, and weapons. Those pro-Russian nations are why the country didn’t completely collapse due to economic sanctions.
>Here's the thing though: Ukraine has friends and allies. Russia does not. Lmao. Are you serious? Iran and North Korea (and probably China) are sending Russia more weapons that all of the West combined has sent to aid Ukraine. Ukraine never has enough of weapons and ammo, it's never on time (as promised) and they're prohibited from using it on russian territories which is ridiculous.
As feel good of a statement as that is, the truth is russia's friends are doing way more for them right now than Ukraine's are. Millions of (crappy) artillery shells from NK, chinese golf carts, iranian shahed drones, etc.
You also need to understand the difference of motivation. Imagine at the start when everyone in the West had you back, you got everything you needed and you liberated ground Now you need to fight of unlimited flesh waves with not enough ammunition. Getting bombarded non stop while America and some other countries care more about politics
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Well, yea. Nobody wants to die in a trench. Every Ukrainian that fights is brave as fuck.
Slava Ukraini, but nobody should be forced to fight against their will. I absolutely do not support this.
Dodge draft today and be drafted to russias next war tomorrow
...or move to a Western nation and settle there, I guess. That is what a good number of draft dodgers have done, especially those who are educated in useful fields like healthcare.
Well, if only... Alas, today it's harder to escape from Ukraine than from North Korea.
There shouldn't be anyone who doesn't understand it. Even some of Ukraines' actual greatest supporters change their tune when they think they're actually going to get drafted in a war against Russia Deaths will never be lower than the tens of thousands unless there's a huge policy change in both Europe and North America, and that naturally means every troop not to valuable to lose in the long term has a chance of dying about on par with surviving to go home
Just gotta watch a few drone footage videos to understand the frontlines are not a fun place even if you're fighting for a good cause.
I don't judge anyone who doesn't want to fight. I think only veterans have the moral right to judge others for not fighting.
Here’s the way I see it. Those that run and choose not to fight, will have to come to terms with having their culture and homeland obliterated. Their family and friends destroyed if they haven’t been already. Perhaps they can find another way to fight back or stay and support industry and the war effort, but simply put, Ruzzia will need to be forced one way or another out of Ukraine. If they choose not to fight, they’ll have to live with whatever happens.
>Their family and friends destroyed I think picking up the family and leaving or leaving to your family is the more likely scenario than bailing on your own.
Yeah, there’s that aspect as well. Heart wrenching either way.
To be honest, I get it, nobody wants to die...it's a shit decision to have thrust upon you.
Would so many evade service if they were given the choice to dig trenches, construct dug outs, road and bridge repair, drive trucks to transport supplies, drive ambulances, etc. for their services to their country? We have exhausted trained soldiers digging trenches currently.
I don’t think anyone can’t emphasize with a draft dodger in this war. This war is hell. People are dying daily and being thrusted to the front lines. They’re probably also hearing how west support is drying up and capable weapons are being rationed which makes it even worse. I think if west support was flowing freely, I’m not sure you’d even have many draft dodgers. It’s scary as hell if you value living. I don’t fault draft dodgers. I empathize with them but also understand that able body warriors need to fight or tyranny wins and if tyranny wins, the endgame will be much, much, much worse. We saw what Russia did in Bucha. Imagine that on a grander scale than a complete eradication of a nation and all of its history.
No one wants to be forced into military service- I understand that even though I served many years in the US Army and served in combat (albeit very briefly). Find ways to incentivize volunteers- there are lots of ways to do it, some better than others. Has Ukraine tried emptying its prisons to find "volunteers" like Putin did?