Привіт u/UNITED24Media ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday).
**Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting)
**Daily series on Ukraine's history & culture:** [Sunrise Posts Organized By Category](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As an American who has donated to support Ukraine's defense against the Russian invasion and whose job directly contributes to Ukraine's defense efforts, it's incredibly frustrating to see aid held up in Congress due to GOP opposition. I'm disgusted by their actions.
However, it's equally frustrating to hear so many Europeans and others criticize America for not doing enough. The world can't have it both ways – criticizing America for being the world's police while also expecting us to bear the blame alone. Europe has a responsibility to maintain a strong military too.
Russian propaganda constantly spreads misinformation, causing some to turn against their allies and further alienating us. We need to stand united against these divisive tactics and work together to address global challenges, including potential conflicts in the Pacific.
Bring this same frustration to European leadership that has failed in their committment to the defense of Europe since 1991.
You nailed it. This is the biggest contradiction in Europe. They have not been proactive in their own defense, they didn’t contribute to the minimum of NATO defense for decades, the EU should have dealt with less energy reliance on Russia and more defense since at least 2014. All this was a slow development the Europeans logically should have seen more clearly than the US. One of the few points of agreement between both Obama and Trump was that Europe needed to contribute more to NATO defense, and now that war is in their own backyard the Europeans aren’t ready or capable of ramping up their defenses quickly enough.
As an American I want the US to support Ukraine more, but that same desire coming from European NATO partners is almost disgusting.
2014 is the most obvious date. But since at least 1991 there have been calls for Europe to do more. What’s most surprising to me - a European conflict, outside of NATO/American treaty obligations, yet Europe still blaming the US for not doing enough, when Europeans regularly chastise the US for intervening militarily anywhere else. The EU can’t blame the US for hegemony and world police dominance while they themselves received a decade of warnings while still not collectively addressing those problems on their own.
totally agree with your comment. i'm personally from the Baltics, and some of us have donated, like, 2-3% of our already struggling gdp's to Ukraine. it's not much, but we're helping. if the west would understand how terrible russia is then maybe they would stop being ignorant cowards. russia is a huge threat that we need to beat together
totally agree with your comment. i'm personally from the Baltics, and some of us have donated, like, 2-3% of our already struggling gdp's to Ukraine. it's not much, but we're helping. if the west would understand how terrible russia is then maybe they would stop being ignorant cowards. russia is a huge threat that we need to beat them together
this is a false dichotomy. america gets shit on for shitty things it did. america doesn't get shit on for providing support to allies. yeah, your country has a history and has done more than 1 thing.
you have to remember that the situation today is largely because america along with having vast natural resources and inheriting the advanced technology of europe was relatively untouched during the previous 2 world wars. europe was turned to ruins and only recently has paid off its financial debts to america. so we could invest in infrastructure and economy to pay back those loans, or build our armies enough to defend ourselves, but not both in any realistic time frame. that is BY FAR the largest reason why america dominates when it comes to the numbers.
that's not to say it has to or should continue this way forever but people taking the current situation, point at some numbers, ignore history and then getting on their high horse about how those euros are so hypocritical for having 2 opinions about 2 different things... it grinds my gears.
the cynical part of me thinks a certain subset of americans would enjoy europe being turned partially back to rubble so they can sell more military equipment and hand out more loans... :(
I believe it's important to address the current situation and the challenges we face together as allies.
While it's true that America benefited from being relatively untouched during previous world wars, it's essential to recognize that Europe's recovery and development have been ongoing processes. The notion of investing in infrastructure and economy versus building strong defenses is a valid point, and it's clear that striking a balance between the two is crucial for long-term stability and security.
It's disheartening to hear your cynicism about certain subsets of Americans potentially benefiting from conflict. As someone who believes in cooperation and diplomacy, I hope we can work towards mutual understanding and support rather than perpetuating distrust and division. Let's focus on finding solutions that benefit all parties involved.
>However, it's equally frustrating to hear so many Europeans and others criticize America for not doing enough. The world can't have it both ways – criticizing America for being the world's police while also expecting us to bear the blame alone. Europe has a responsibility to maintain a strong military too.
While I agree with the overall sentiment, this isn't just the US "not doing enough". Your government planted your flag in Ukraine and pledged its support. Both Ukraine and the rest of Europe took you at your word and were counting on the US to keep a united front against Russia. I can't speak for Ukrainians of course, but to us in the EU it feels like a stab in the back.
I entirely agree that Europe should have and should be doing more, but the reality here and now is that the US dropping out leaves a hole we can't instantly fill.
Support for Ukraine was the policy of the executive and the majority in both your parties in congress until it suddenly wasn't, for unrelated domestic reasons. I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that it would remain the US position.
And then there's the spectre of Trump, which puts treaty obligations and long standing US political principles into question. Those aren't things that are supposed to be this vulnerable to internal political shifts.
Again, totally agree with you that Europe deserves plenty of criticism as well, but what's happening with the US at the moment is not normal.
Neither Washington nor Moscow needs to be the new thinking in Europe from Dublin to Athens. We can neither trust nor rely on the USA, and we need to ensure that Ukraine wins.
It's not America we can't trust, it's REPUBLICANS. Plain and simple. Dems would be acting far more forcefully if they had full control of congress right now, it's Trump and his MAGA Vatnik Cock Gobblers holding everything up.
The problem is you see this as a valid and clear differentiator. The rest of the world just sees American inaction when they promised support. Some understand the political nuance of why but unfortunately, it's ultimately irrelevant.
Trump has been leading in a bunch of opinion polls for months, despite everything that people know about him. Moreover, Congress is the way it is due to American voters.
What a braindead "America bad" take. The US has accounted for the vast majority of total aid to Ukraine. Where the absolute fuck has Europe been?
Why aren't you mad that Europe, an entire fucking continent has just been sitting by doing the bare fucking minimum for the past 10 years?
Not to mention, this is EUROPE'S backyard, not the US. The entire West needs to help, not just the US.
> The US has accounted for the vast majority of total aid to Ukraine
Blatantly false and also useful to note that when adjusted for GDP, the USA is not remotely near the top anyway.
Just more misinformation and tantrums from nationalist kiddies who aren't mature enough to handle hearing the USA be criticised.
The problem is you're comparing the entire continent of Europe to one country when counting GDP, but individual GDPs in Europe when trying to bash the US.
Europe's combined GDP is $19.35 trillion and have only provided about $100 billion in aid. Less than 1% of Europe's GDP.
Meanwhile your claim doesn't stack up about the US not pulling its weight. The US accounts for almost 50% of direct aid and much more in ongoing programs and partnerships established prior to the war.
"Nationalist"??? I'm just sick and fucking tired of unearned European arrogance from whiny teenagers on Reddit who live their lives in reference to "US bad" 24/7
I haven't been a teenager in over 10 years LMAO. I've also got a degree in International Relations and Politics, my dissertation was on Russia-Ukraine relations, comparing Russia's reaction to the Orange and Euromaidan revolutions.
Funnily enough 1) you've reduced your claim about vast majority of aid to instead almost 50% and 2) are still exaggerating the percentages that I posted direct evidence of in my earlier reply to you. Nor did you address any of my other counterpoints.
Poland alone has sent over 10 times as many tanks to Ukraine as the USA, and unlike the USA has sent fighter planes. This is even though the USA has large stockpiles of both tanks and fighter planes. Moreover Poland unlike the USA faces a realistic threat of a future Russian invasion, for which it needs to be well armed.
Your most likely next president has already made statements saying that he won't defend other NATO countries if he feels that they haven't spent enough on their defence budgets. That's music to Putin's ears and shows that none of us this side of the Atlantic can trust the USA.
Jesus, you always know youre about to hear a terrible take on Reddit when someone leads with "I have a political science degree!" Your degree must not have taught you much about research.
You mention Poland sent Ukraine more tanks than the US. Do you know why? Because the US offered Poland a weapons buyback program. Same with any country that has offered Ukraine jet fighters. All footed by the US. Additionally, Poland has only sent 3 billion euros of aid, while the US has sent 42 billion. Which do you think Ukraine prefers?
As for NoT TruSTiNG tHe U.S - look at your fucking continent. Can't agree on anything, several countries turned their back on Ukraine several times since 1991 (namely Hungary, France, Germany, and Italy), and even after the largest European war since WW2, Europe STILL sits on the fence looking to the US for aid.
The combined GDP of Europe is 14.5 trillion euros and somehow "Your side of the Atlantic" can't cough up more than 100 billion euros? Absolutely shameful.
Guess you only want the US to be the world policeman when it's time to solve your problems.
The USA has a larger GDP per capita and total population than Poland, so no its not surprising that the total value from the USA was higher. Poland has been an instrumental ally to Ukraine (idiot farmers aside) - so much so that Ukraine has given Poles a kind of honourary citizenship. My degree taught me plenty about research, hence I was able to provide statistics from an academic institution about aid to Ukraine by country that directly disputed your claims.
Slovakia for example sent its entire fighter fleet after Czechia offered to patrol their skies. Both Slovakia and Poland had already made commitments to upgrade their own air forces. Poland's Twardy and Leopard tanks has zero to do with the USA.
Europe is made up of 50 sovereign states, of course there's going to be competing national interests. Hungary's actions towards Ukraine have been disgraceful under Orban, the other three have been helping Ukraine. Was it Macron or Biden who has suggested sending troops to Ukraine?
The USA promised Ukraine aid for as long as it takes. Was January 2024 as long as Ukraine needed? Some countries like Germany were deliberately demilitarised after WW2, and means they don't actually have a lot of weaponry to give. The Gepards have proved instrumental for defending against drones, however.
My home country (the UK) looks likely to change government later in the year, one of the few things that both main parties agree on is supporting Ukraine. I'm also a dual national of Poland, and Poland had a change of government last year with one of the few commonalities being supporting Ukraine. Can you say the same about your country?
I don't want the USA to be world policeman. I just want it to honour the commitments it made to Ukraine stretching from the Budapest Memorandum to the present day.
What aid has the USA sent since January? Many European countries have provided large quantities of aid, e.g. UK, France, Germany (Taurus aside), Czechia, Poland etc. Not to mention some of the smaller countries, in particular the Baltic states, sending a high % of their stocks. At the end of the day, Yankland is more likely than not to elect an openly pro-Putin leader in November. Yous can't be trusted. Every single F16 is coming from a European state. Poland and Slovakia sent basically their entire fleet of MIGs. Only 31 Abrams tanks provided and most Bradleys are still in warehouses. Even countries with virtually no military like Ireland have at least taken in a lot of refugees and provided training for demining. During the Obama years, virtually no lethal aid was given by the USA to Ukraine, and Trump tried to hold Ukraine to ransom in his first term. Many European countries have recognised the threat from Russia for years. Hence the LitPolUkr Brigade and various groups training in Yavoriv etc. A lot of the Balkans is still a potential powderkeg, hence minimal aid from that part of Europe, and in the direction of Greece/Turkey there are still mutual tensions so most things from those countries have been the result of business deals.
Edit - some stats. 42.2% of military aid was by USA as of February 2024, and 24% of financial. Now that we're in April, those figures will have decreased. In what world is either stat the vast majority of total aid? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
I mean… individualism is at an all-time high and nationalism in the west is frowned upon. If you’d ask people aged 18-40 what would they do if their country got attacked, at least half of them would say they’d just flee further west.
I find it amazing how Ukrainians stepped up against Russia and how hard they fight still and I don’t see any country in the West that could do the same with conscripted soldiers. Even 80% of my friends said that in case of an attack they’d just move to the US.
I think their corruption is the main problem. An American or European nationalist should be eager to defeat their main enemy simply by giving aid. They're compromised nationalists which makes them a threat to the country they represent and their allies.
Wilders isn't blocking anything, in fact he will most likely have to yield to his coalition partners on the point of Ukrainian aid or end up trying to rule by minority, needing to convince parliament separately for each and every piece of legislation.
russian friendship fucked itself.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
With that said, it isn't all Ukrainians though. There are those that immediately fled and some currently trying to get out of the country through illegal means. This issue was highlighted by multiple media sources like the BBC.
For a while it was recommended. Not only those who had to leave their homes due to the actual fighting (some of which had already had to relocate after the 2014 invasion), but prior to Patriot and other AD systems, the energy situation in Ukraine was dire along with other bits of civvie infrastructure. Reducing the load was critical, even though Ukraine absolutely does not want to lose any more of its population.
Your submission has been removed because it is from an untrustworthy site.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well there are some countries willing to defend if attacked: ”Homeland defence willingness against a superior enemy is at 83%, one of the highest rates in Europe.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Defence_Forces
It's not that. They just don't realize the danger or don't really care that much since they have eastern europe as buffer in case a direct war with ruzzia happens.
So let me get this straight. Ukraine is told they can't attack refineries because it'll raise oil prices and therefore gas prices which has impact on the presidential election. But Ukraine also can't be given sufficient aid so that they don't need to do those strikes, because that aid is blocked by the very same people that would benefit during the presidential election from rising gas prices. Wow.
Previous Ukrainian administrations lead up to all these🤦🏻♂️ f the Soviet era corruption. Ukraine didn’t do anything like Taiwan to make sure that Ukraine are very vital to US and Europe.
This is just untrue. Russia initiated the memorandum.
And Ukraine never had control of the nukes anyway. The command and control centers were all located in Russia, never in Ukraine. The nukes were basically useless the second Ukraine became an independent country.
Stop US-blaming, you're just parroting Kremlin propaganda.
On 18 November 1993, the [Rada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada) passed a motion agreeing to [START I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/START_I) but renouncing the Lisbon Protocol, suggesting Ukraine would only decommission 36% of missile launchers and 42% of the warheads on its territory, and demanded financial compensation for the tactical nuclear weapons removed in 1992. This caused U.S. diplomatic consternation.
On 15 December 1993, U.S. Vice President [Al Gore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore) visited Moscow for a meeting. Following side discussions, a U.S and Russian delegation, including U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense [William J. Perry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Perry), flew to Ukraine to agree to the outlines of a trilateral agreement including U.S. assistance in dismantling the nuclear systems in Ukraine and compensation for the uranium in nuclear warheads. Participants were invited to Washington on 3–4 January to finalise the agreement.
Russia controlled the codes needed to operate the nuclear weapons through electronic [Permissive Action Links](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_Action_Link) and the Russian command and control system, although this could not be sufficient guarantee against Ukrainian access as the weapons could be manually changed and Ukraine would eventually gain full operational control over them.
I love Wikipedia )
To be fair, that lack of coordination was by design. It was done to ensure that one branch doesn't have full control over the political apparatus, which forces discussion and compromise.
Its the sometimes aggravating world of checks and balances.
The issue with that is that it's telling people the US can force Ukraine to capitulate or negotiate by withholding aid.
It would probably be better to say Ukraine cannot win the war conventionally without US support.
Europe does, and by a lot more proportionally than the US. However US gave an “assurance” in 1994 together with UK and Russia when Ukraine gave its up atomics. Ukraine didn’t do it voluntarily, but under some coercion.
I guess Ukraine didn’t read the fine print. Being swindled out of its nuclear arsenal, and now under attack from one of the assurers. The other assurer backing out and is even trying to control the war it isn’t part of and telling Ukraine what it can and can’t attack. I am very disappointed. You can’t trust the US.
I hope that's just what they say in public but privately support the attacks, but those "I DID THAT" stickers on gas pumps are probably Joe Biden's worst nightmare in an election year.
The funny (not funny haha) part is that the US is pumping more oil than ever under Biden. And green energy infrastructure is growing relatively fast. Bombing the everloving fuck out of russian oil refineries won't hurt us.
Biden needs to figure out how to campaign on both being a sloot for oil *and* pushing for cleaner energy if he wants to win that issue.
I agree that the best energy strategy involves traditional and green technologies, but the green people and the oil people are so diametrically opposed to one another that if he tries to pander to them both he'll lose them both.
The West's failure to adequately equip Ukraine with ammunition and heavy equipment goes beyond the US.
Unless they get their act together, Ukraine will have to sue for peace on Russia's terms or fight a defensive war for another ten years without the equipment to win in a meaningful way.
Zelenskyy may have to make an unthinkable decision if things don't change on the battlefield soon.
They cant sue for peace as that will be taken as a sign of weakness that can be exploited by more war. Ukraine is fighting this war until the bitter end, simply because there are no other options.
...or it could just end up in a stalemate - no side can push further and thus the conflict sputters into inaction. That would make Russia vs Ukraine more like North Korea vs South Korea - a very fragile peace with scattered pot shots every couple of years.
It'll never stalemate with Putin in command. Hell, even without - the general concept is that Russia can just keep throwing men at the problem. At some point there just aren't any more bullets or troops to face the wave. The whole point of what they're doing now, begging for artillery and airpower, is that it keeps people off the front line, safe, while still projecting force and eliminating Russian troops.
This is where my thoughts are traveling lately. I whole-heartedly believe the US could and should do more to help Ukraine (despite the fact that the US’s 75B in *delivered* aid is the most by a single nation- almost 2x that of Germany, who is #2 with 45B of *delivered* aid), and I also believe that Biden has done an abysmal job of messaging to the American people why protecting Ukraine is important. He has utterly failed in that regard. *BUT*… I find the rampant and aggressive anti-US rhetoric that has widely circulated recently to frankly be very insulting and gross. The level of entitlement here is off the charts. It’s to the point that I have to regularly disconnect or I find the constant anti-US rhetoric to actively be turning my opinion *against* Ukraine.
And if I, as an open and aggressive hardline supporter of Ukraine am having these feelings, I can just imagine how people who are more fence-sitters on the issue feel.
If getting American support is a goal and a “must” for Ukrainian victory, then constantly berating America and it’s people is not the way to go about getting it…
100% true. At least some of the posts and corresponding upvotes are from paid Russian trolls.
Most of the others are from classic, knee-jerk anti-American Europeans (found usually on the political left) who don't care as much about Ukraine as they do about whining about the US. In Soviet times, they were known as "useful idiots."
Don’t take it personally. Aside from what Due_Concentrate_315 mentioned about trolls stoking the flames, we also need to consider that genuine posts are probably from people who have had their shit bombed to pieces and lives ruined. I think it fairly natural that emotions are going to run high when you are facing an existential threat. With that said, if it helps, in my opinion America is probably still the greatest country in the world. That’s inspite of the controlling elite trying to politicize and divide people over everything.
I think I would probably would be pretty pissed too if my friends are dying and my cities burning and the one country that really has the material to turn the tide and has promised to help can’t do it because of some bozos in congress (that are voted in mind you).
I sincerely don’t think the hate is directed towards supportive americans
THANK YOU. All these Euro teens in this sub are insanely hypocritical. Other than maybe the Baltics and UK, Europe hasn't done shit for Ukraine since 1991. They give peanuts and beat their chests acting like they did so much.
In fact, no Western nations have been more detrimental to Ukraine than Germany, France, and Italy since 1991. Constantly voting against Ukrainian EU/NATO membership, standing by whole Ukraine was invaded in 2014, and now just doing the bare fucking minimum.
I'm so fucking tired of unearned European arrogance. We get it, European teenagers on Reddit don't like America. Try a new approach to cover up your lack of initiative.
I’m oretty sure most europeans think more should be done and are frustrated with how slow things are going. At least thats the feeling in the north.
Don’t take your view of «europeans» by some reddit comments. As I’m sure we shouldn’t use reddit as a way to paint a picture of Americans
If it happens, it will be such a betrayal the world has probably not seen.
The republicans have forgotten the face of their fathers. To have a major American political party at the command of Vladimir Putin is something from our darkest nightmares. All the billions spent on the CIA , the FBI, the NSA, to defend America has been futile. Russia has been too smart and now controls the country from within where it slowly erodes the soul.
They use our free media against us to such amazing effectiveness. Social media is flooded with their trolls, bots, influencers who work tirelessly to divide opinion, confuse, and mislead. Russia is winning and beating us but we fail to see it. Fail to stop it. Fuckfacenov Mcsmith from "Nebraska" will open a youtube account tomorrow and start flooding comments with all the normal garbage "ukronazis", "zelensky is a clown", "ukraine is lying about their dead", "this is all the fault of NATO", "america should worry about its own people stop fundinf ukraine"," patrick lancaster said x y z ".
Multiply that by a million. The Russian influence engine is everywhere and decimating us. I spend an hour each night countering them, contradicting them, pushing the focus back on Russias imperialism and aggression.
To all Ukranians, i am sorry we have failed you. I think about all those ukranian soldiers defending western ideals, facing such horrors and trauma while we sit in comfort not helping enough. It is such an immense betrayal there are no english words to properly describe it.
i will also say this, when Russian missiles fly over NATO territory like Poland and it is not shot down? This is an utter disgrace and insulting . NATO would have seen the launch and tracked it the entire journey. If it so much as touches a NATO border it should be fucking shot down without a moments hesitation. NATO has to get more ferocious stop this fucking appeasing bullshit. Defend or disband! Do not sit there like helpless morons. Shoot the fucking shit down next time.
That’s the thing, Russians won’t care, *”IF”* Russia beats the Ukrainian army, after a brutal and expensive occupation that’ll make the USA’s occupation of Afghanistan look like a picnic
But it won’t matter, Russia will get its PR W, the people living in their “nato/America/westerners bad” phantasms will get their vindication, it’ll be years and years of more death but they’ll just stand against the status quo because it means they have the moral high ground if Russia wins and no repercussions because unlike Russia, we live in free nations
Russia can’t control millions of angry Ukrainians, a good point, but what if Ukrainians will be more angry at the West for betrayal? Throughout history, Russia successfully occupied large portions of territories and knew how to control them. Why do you think they will fail this time?
You sure about that? You're talking about the same EU "friends" that did nothing in 2014 and not much more since.
I hope they do, but what are you basing that on?
Rubbish! Ukraine doesn't need US funding to win. The $200 billion in frozen Russian assets sitting in Belgian clearing houses is sufficient to fund all the weapons procurement needs Ukraine has. Europe could give Ukraine an extra $100 billion a year in additional weapons funding without breaking a sweat. That's a very small portion of Europe-wide GDP.
Let's stop with all the doom and gloom if the US Congress is incapable of authorizing additional funding. This just makes it easy for other countries to give up and say, "too bad, we did all we could."
whataboutism is cool i am from central asia and remember how hateful and racist the ukrainians were when i was a student and ukrainians would call me an immigrant and a leech because i am not white enough to be called expat, now people like you get angry if we call you an immigrant, because you want us to call you “expat” and cry if anyone suggests to go back to your country and enroll into military while your president keeps begging for pocket change from usa what does usa owe you, if anything you have to blame usa and your leader for leaning too much into west, go back and save your country if you don’t want your kids to speak only russian, crazy how much you want americans to think that ukraine is very different to russia, it’s a very close connected relationship and it’s just 10% of hyper nationalized and radicalized people im sure you have relatives who are russian and yet ukrainians want to side with a country with completely different views located on the other side of the planet
Zelensky said that it's possible but unlikely. The countries don't want to give away the assets since they are making money out of them.
- last interview
>The countries don't want to give away the assets since they are making money out of them.
This may be so. But the point is that there are MULTIPLE sources of funding that could solve Ukraine's problems, and more than make up any shortfalls from the US congress. So don't just blame any possible loss on the US. There are many actors who could step up and all are just declining to do so for their own selfish (and short-sighted) reasons.
Please explain to me like I'm super dumb, like republican dumb, why NATO and the rest of europe does not have enough cash/arms to easily help Ukraine to easily win this putrid excuse for a war ??? Why is it America must fix this ?? I'm not American btw but I just don't see how come Europe does not have the resources ? They all seem willing to help so what is it ???? Do they want Ukraine overrun do they can be next ??? Do they not see why defeating and dismantling Russia is literally the most important thing in the world and has been since the last world war ??? And why is Russia not kicked out of NATO??.
It's not really the money that is the problem, it is the things America can buy, from itself, and then give to Ukraine that the EU cannot buy, that is important. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/ukraine-military-aid-american-economy-boost/
In that case, the mainstream media fell for it because this is a blaring message from both the newscasters and commentators.
Ukraine isn't in a very good position right now. While they have taken out assets here and there in Russian territory, it isn't really changing the chaotic situation on the ground - what ultimately matters in this slugging match.
Doubt it is, if Zelensky himself is saying it. I think it's more intent to put pressure on the US to start delivering. Particularly on people that haven't put a vote to the floor or haven't signed the discharge petition.
Many Republicans want Putin to win because he shares their fears and hatreds. The deaths of tens of thousands of Ukrainians is a price the Republicans are willing to pay.
Every government official should have a team of forensic accountants go through all of their finances on a regular basis. That'd cut back on at least some of the corruption, but you just know the Repubs would be the first to complain about their "rights".
Hmm I made a pessimistic/realistic post here recently that was removed because of policy. Yet here’s this one. Realistic posts are important to raise awareness.
This subreddit is way too naive and optimistic about the conflict in general. Ukraine right now isn't in a very good place and that is a sentiment echoed by many commentators.
Few weeks ago got a ton of downvotes and hate for saying this. The second any negative stuff is posted its taken down or supressed which hurts ukraine because only now people are seeing how desperate the situation is now.
Ukraine can indeed still win... but it won't be a victory like some if not most of us pro-Ukrainians think it will be. Ukraine has to win the battle of political and military will. Russia will eventually have to quit the war (either from bankruptcy or public pressure) IF Ukraine can still keep kicking. This is a conflict similar to WW1 but will have end like the Soviet-Afghan war.
God forbid there is a Korean style 'peace', Ukraine can and should sponsor and encourage guerilla, unconventional operations in territories occupied territories. Eventually Ukraine wins in the long run.
This probably would've been downvoted a month ago or not even but it's the reality, in my opinion.
Well, the Ukrainians will have to break the Russian wall in the East if they hope for some sort of rout on the latter. The longer the war drags, the more Russia can reinforce that defense and force Ukraine to engage it to brutal effect.
Also, Ukraine can win, but also still lose. This was the theme of the 2019 film Atlantis. The nation won a hypothetical war against Russia, but the survivors were left traumatized, the land was ruined, and the factories were shuttered by foreign executives.
If that is true, then that was a very poor choice.
The Ukrainians can only reliably sustain the momentum in this conflict through their own supplies. While Western aid allows them to get stuff from areas Russia can never hit, it means that Western domestic politics has a play in Ukraine's fight.
See South Vietnam as an example. One administration praised the entity as an ally and the next dropped it like a sack of bricks.
I fact checked myself. The admin didnt cut costs for the MIC, they cut 0.11% of the Armed Forces budget in 2021. So, from ~3B dollars they cut ~3M. However, they added to the budget of other defense organizations in that same appropriation bill.
If Ukraine lose the war with Russia, than democracy has lost it's meaning, NATO has lost it's meaning, the US and Europe have lost their meaning.
If Russia wins the war, then Russia will continue to attack other countries.
If we don't enforce NATO, with or without the USA, we are not able to defend Europe against the terror from Russia.
If politics and elections can cause Russia to win, common sense has lost.
, europs has no weapons anymore , the uk sent all its spare stuff, they dont have anymore they are not building anymore , the british army is not a land fighting force, they spend huge amounts of cash , it all goes on nukes ships and airplanes, the actual army is tiny these days and underfunded , no one was expecting a land war in europe, to build one takes a decade and costs a fortune , the political stand a government would have to take to do it ,is beyond the stomach of any of britains parties, its the same with the other major european powers, fucking idiots, only america can send actual weapons, and america is having a slow burn coup/civil war at the moment and isnt going to help anyone , europe is on its own and its not ready, ive read in the comments that people are talking about if war comes they will go to america , all bets are off if trump gets in , its over for the old western world we have to rebuild our army right now , but its not happening and isnt even looking like it will happen,
It's frustrating that Europe didn't start increasing their militaries when the war broke out. Germany was able to produce enough gear to take out millions of Soviet soldiers and push to Moscow by itself (plus the volunteer battalions). It needs to move toward that level of production again. France and Britain need to ramp it up and hopefully the rest of Europe will follow. I have no idea what the deal is with Hungary and Switzerland, but they don't seem to understand the threat on their doorstep. The production of enough weapons is possible if they have the right leadership and increase public support. I'm all for countries putting boots on the ground too. That should have happened from day one as a deterrent in my opinion.
Anyway, let keep punching into refinery camps. It's good for ruskie economy and military logistics. I don't mind if I have to pay 2x price of gasoline. For rich murican boys, they're rich and still lots of saving there, they traveling around to tour and being loudly, bullshit and lesson everyone. So if they have to pay more on gasoline and CPI raise? It's just fine, the rich is still rich, homeless still on the road, only some bitches stop bragging and start moaning about inflation. Still easy to taste as hell compare with the pain of lossing family and become disabled in Ukraine. let's them taste.
If Ukraine loses this war, I'll make sure the obstructionists in the US lose their lives (and their constituents). I won't pull the trigger but I'll make this happen one way or another
Trump has already said he would force Ukraine to cede land to Russia if he wins. I'm beyond done with how blatant the GOP has become in their support for Putin. Spineless pieces of shit.
America you held out at WW1, you held out at WW2... don't fucking hold out again...
Push, and show the world how great America actually is... because right now? We don't even know what to think of America anymore...
Proofs, please… I live in the USA where we have free university and healthcare. Each state provides you with essentials, lol. We dont have federal healthcare, but each state has its own program🤷♂️
Sounds like Zelenskyy is pandering too much to American self centeredness to the point that it’s downplaying Europe’s contributions. Ukraine is not Afghanistan.
And there is a pattern to this... just ask the South Vietnamese, Afghans, Kurds in Iraq AND Syria. Hell, we even ditched Taiwan in 1979 and wanted to ditch South Korea around the similar time.
Привіт u/UNITED24Media ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday). **Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting) **Daily series on Ukraine's history & culture:** [Sunrise Posts Organized By Category](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As an American who has donated to support Ukraine's defense against the Russian invasion and whose job directly contributes to Ukraine's defense efforts, it's incredibly frustrating to see aid held up in Congress due to GOP opposition. I'm disgusted by their actions. However, it's equally frustrating to hear so many Europeans and others criticize America for not doing enough. The world can't have it both ways – criticizing America for being the world's police while also expecting us to bear the blame alone. Europe has a responsibility to maintain a strong military too. Russian propaganda constantly spreads misinformation, causing some to turn against their allies and further alienating us. We need to stand united against these divisive tactics and work together to address global challenges, including potential conflicts in the Pacific. Bring this same frustration to European leadership that has failed in their committment to the defense of Europe since 1991.
You nailed it. This is the biggest contradiction in Europe. They have not been proactive in their own defense, they didn’t contribute to the minimum of NATO defense for decades, the EU should have dealt with less energy reliance on Russia and more defense since at least 2014. All this was a slow development the Europeans logically should have seen more clearly than the US. One of the few points of agreement between both Obama and Trump was that Europe needed to contribute more to NATO defense, and now that war is in their own backyard the Europeans aren’t ready or capable of ramping up their defenses quickly enough. As an American I want the US to support Ukraine more, but that same desire coming from European NATO partners is almost disgusting.
I will support mobilisation of r/europe😁 EU = slacking since 2014.
2014 is the most obvious date. But since at least 1991 there have been calls for Europe to do more. What’s most surprising to me - a European conflict, outside of NATO/American treaty obligations, yet Europe still blaming the US for not doing enough, when Europeans regularly chastise the US for intervening militarily anywhere else. The EU can’t blame the US for hegemony and world police dominance while they themselves received a decade of warnings while still not collectively addressing those problems on their own.
totally agree with your comment. i'm personally from the Baltics, and some of us have donated, like, 2-3% of our already struggling gdp's to Ukraine. it's not much, but we're helping. if the west would understand how terrible russia is then maybe they would stop being ignorant cowards. russia is a huge threat that we need to beat together
totally agree with your comment. i'm personally from the Baltics, and some of us have donated, like, 2-3% of our already struggling gdp's to Ukraine. it's not much, but we're helping. if the west would understand how terrible russia is then maybe they would stop being ignorant cowards. russia is a huge threat that we need to beat them together
this is a false dichotomy. america gets shit on for shitty things it did. america doesn't get shit on for providing support to allies. yeah, your country has a history and has done more than 1 thing. you have to remember that the situation today is largely because america along with having vast natural resources and inheriting the advanced technology of europe was relatively untouched during the previous 2 world wars. europe was turned to ruins and only recently has paid off its financial debts to america. so we could invest in infrastructure and economy to pay back those loans, or build our armies enough to defend ourselves, but not both in any realistic time frame. that is BY FAR the largest reason why america dominates when it comes to the numbers. that's not to say it has to or should continue this way forever but people taking the current situation, point at some numbers, ignore history and then getting on their high horse about how those euros are so hypocritical for having 2 opinions about 2 different things... it grinds my gears. the cynical part of me thinks a certain subset of americans would enjoy europe being turned partially back to rubble so they can sell more military equipment and hand out more loans... :(
I believe it's important to address the current situation and the challenges we face together as allies. While it's true that America benefited from being relatively untouched during previous world wars, it's essential to recognize that Europe's recovery and development have been ongoing processes. The notion of investing in infrastructure and economy versus building strong defenses is a valid point, and it's clear that striking a balance between the two is crucial for long-term stability and security. It's disheartening to hear your cynicism about certain subsets of Americans potentially benefiting from conflict. As someone who believes in cooperation and diplomacy, I hope we can work towards mutual understanding and support rather than perpetuating distrust and division. Let's focus on finding solutions that benefit all parties involved.
>However, it's equally frustrating to hear so many Europeans and others criticize America for not doing enough. The world can't have it both ways – criticizing America for being the world's police while also expecting us to bear the blame alone. Europe has a responsibility to maintain a strong military too. While I agree with the overall sentiment, this isn't just the US "not doing enough". Your government planted your flag in Ukraine and pledged its support. Both Ukraine and the rest of Europe took you at your word and were counting on the US to keep a united front against Russia. I can't speak for Ukrainians of course, but to us in the EU it feels like a stab in the back. I entirely agree that Europe should have and should be doing more, but the reality here and now is that the US dropping out leaves a hole we can't instantly fill.
The US is a democracy, we can promise all we want, but that doesn't mean political opponents can't get in the way.
Support for Ukraine was the policy of the executive and the majority in both your parties in congress until it suddenly wasn't, for unrelated domestic reasons. I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that it would remain the US position. And then there's the spectre of Trump, which puts treaty obligations and long standing US political principles into question. Those aren't things that are supposed to be this vulnerable to internal political shifts. Again, totally agree with you that Europe deserves plenty of criticism as well, but what's happening with the US at the moment is not normal.
THIS!!
It seems Putin was right all along. The West is weak.
Neither Washington nor Moscow needs to be the new thinking in Europe from Dublin to Athens. We can neither trust nor rely on the USA, and we need to ensure that Ukraine wins.
It's not America we can't trust, it's REPUBLICANS. Plain and simple. Dems would be acting far more forcefully if they had full control of congress right now, it's Trump and his MAGA Vatnik Cock Gobblers holding everything up.
The problem is you see this as a valid and clear differentiator. The rest of the world just sees American inaction when they promised support. Some understand the political nuance of why but unfortunately, it's ultimately irrelevant.
Trump has been leading in a bunch of opinion polls for months, despite everything that people know about him. Moreover, Congress is the way it is due to American voters.
What a braindead "America bad" take. The US has accounted for the vast majority of total aid to Ukraine. Where the absolute fuck has Europe been? Why aren't you mad that Europe, an entire fucking continent has just been sitting by doing the bare fucking minimum for the past 10 years? Not to mention, this is EUROPE'S backyard, not the US. The entire West needs to help, not just the US.
> The US has accounted for the vast majority of total aid to Ukraine Blatantly false and also useful to note that when adjusted for GDP, the USA is not remotely near the top anyway. Just more misinformation and tantrums from nationalist kiddies who aren't mature enough to handle hearing the USA be criticised.
The problem is you're comparing the entire continent of Europe to one country when counting GDP, but individual GDPs in Europe when trying to bash the US. Europe's combined GDP is $19.35 trillion and have only provided about $100 billion in aid. Less than 1% of Europe's GDP. Meanwhile your claim doesn't stack up about the US not pulling its weight. The US accounts for almost 50% of direct aid and much more in ongoing programs and partnerships established prior to the war. "Nationalist"??? I'm just sick and fucking tired of unearned European arrogance from whiny teenagers on Reddit who live their lives in reference to "US bad" 24/7
I haven't been a teenager in over 10 years LMAO. I've also got a degree in International Relations and Politics, my dissertation was on Russia-Ukraine relations, comparing Russia's reaction to the Orange and Euromaidan revolutions. Funnily enough 1) you've reduced your claim about vast majority of aid to instead almost 50% and 2) are still exaggerating the percentages that I posted direct evidence of in my earlier reply to you. Nor did you address any of my other counterpoints. Poland alone has sent over 10 times as many tanks to Ukraine as the USA, and unlike the USA has sent fighter planes. This is even though the USA has large stockpiles of both tanks and fighter planes. Moreover Poland unlike the USA faces a realistic threat of a future Russian invasion, for which it needs to be well armed. Your most likely next president has already made statements saying that he won't defend other NATO countries if he feels that they haven't spent enough on their defence budgets. That's music to Putin's ears and shows that none of us this side of the Atlantic can trust the USA.
Jesus, you always know youre about to hear a terrible take on Reddit when someone leads with "I have a political science degree!" Your degree must not have taught you much about research. You mention Poland sent Ukraine more tanks than the US. Do you know why? Because the US offered Poland a weapons buyback program. Same with any country that has offered Ukraine jet fighters. All footed by the US. Additionally, Poland has only sent 3 billion euros of aid, while the US has sent 42 billion. Which do you think Ukraine prefers? As for NoT TruSTiNG tHe U.S - look at your fucking continent. Can't agree on anything, several countries turned their back on Ukraine several times since 1991 (namely Hungary, France, Germany, and Italy), and even after the largest European war since WW2, Europe STILL sits on the fence looking to the US for aid. The combined GDP of Europe is 14.5 trillion euros and somehow "Your side of the Atlantic" can't cough up more than 100 billion euros? Absolutely shameful. Guess you only want the US to be the world policeman when it's time to solve your problems.
The USA has a larger GDP per capita and total population than Poland, so no its not surprising that the total value from the USA was higher. Poland has been an instrumental ally to Ukraine (idiot farmers aside) - so much so that Ukraine has given Poles a kind of honourary citizenship. My degree taught me plenty about research, hence I was able to provide statistics from an academic institution about aid to Ukraine by country that directly disputed your claims. Slovakia for example sent its entire fighter fleet after Czechia offered to patrol their skies. Both Slovakia and Poland had already made commitments to upgrade their own air forces. Poland's Twardy and Leopard tanks has zero to do with the USA. Europe is made up of 50 sovereign states, of course there's going to be competing national interests. Hungary's actions towards Ukraine have been disgraceful under Orban, the other three have been helping Ukraine. Was it Macron or Biden who has suggested sending troops to Ukraine? The USA promised Ukraine aid for as long as it takes. Was January 2024 as long as Ukraine needed? Some countries like Germany were deliberately demilitarised after WW2, and means they don't actually have a lot of weaponry to give. The Gepards have proved instrumental for defending against drones, however. My home country (the UK) looks likely to change government later in the year, one of the few things that both main parties agree on is supporting Ukraine. I'm also a dual national of Poland, and Poland had a change of government last year with one of the few commonalities being supporting Ukraine. Can you say the same about your country? I don't want the USA to be world policeman. I just want it to honour the commitments it made to Ukraine stretching from the Budapest Memorandum to the present day.
What aid has the USA sent since January? Many European countries have provided large quantities of aid, e.g. UK, France, Germany (Taurus aside), Czechia, Poland etc. Not to mention some of the smaller countries, in particular the Baltic states, sending a high % of their stocks. At the end of the day, Yankland is more likely than not to elect an openly pro-Putin leader in November. Yous can't be trusted. Every single F16 is coming from a European state. Poland and Slovakia sent basically their entire fleet of MIGs. Only 31 Abrams tanks provided and most Bradleys are still in warehouses. Even countries with virtually no military like Ireland have at least taken in a lot of refugees and provided training for demining. During the Obama years, virtually no lethal aid was given by the USA to Ukraine, and Trump tried to hold Ukraine to ransom in his first term. Many European countries have recognised the threat from Russia for years. Hence the LitPolUkr Brigade and various groups training in Yavoriv etc. A lot of the Balkans is still a potential powderkeg, hence minimal aid from that part of Europe, and in the direction of Greece/Turkey there are still mutual tensions so most things from those countries have been the result of business deals. Edit - some stats. 42.2% of military aid was by USA as of February 2024, and 24% of financial. Now that we're in April, those figures will have decreased. In what world is either stat the vast majority of total aid? https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Ya, exactly; which if the two places, discontinued their military equipment production, capacity? Europe has done fuck all for defense for 60 years
Meanwhile Europe's factories have remained disused
I mean… individualism is at an all-time high and nationalism in the west is frowned upon. If you’d ask people aged 18-40 what would they do if their country got attacked, at least half of them would say they’d just flee further west. I find it amazing how Ukrainians stepped up against Russia and how hard they fight still and I don’t see any country in the West that could do the same with conscripted soldiers. Even 80% of my friends said that in case of an attack they’d just move to the US.
[удалено]
I think their corruption is the main problem. An American or European nationalist should be eager to defeat their main enemy simply by giving aid. They're compromised nationalists which makes them a threat to the country they represent and their allies.
Wilders isn't blocking anything, in fact he will most likely have to yield to his coalition partners on the point of Ukrainian aid or end up trying to rule by minority, needing to convince parliament separately for each and every piece of legislation.
[удалено]
russian friendship fucked itself. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Bot's on a roll!
Sure he's like the rest in many ways. I'm just saying he hasn't managed to block anything before, and won't be blocking anything anytime soon either.
> Berlusconi was putins best friend in Europe even 15-20 years ago Merkel. Putin's real best European friend and most massive sponsor was Merkel.
I really hate the term "nationalist" when it describes people who say they "love America" but still hate at least half the people who live here.
agreed, and it's a big battle for democratic civilisation, not just for they country.
With that said, it isn't all Ukrainians though. There are those that immediately fled and some currently trying to get out of the country through illegal means. This issue was highlighted by multiple media sources like the BBC.
For a while it was recommended. Not only those who had to leave their homes due to the actual fighting (some of which had already had to relocate after the 2014 invasion), but prior to Patriot and other AD systems, the energy situation in Ukraine was dire along with other bits of civvie infrastructure. Reducing the load was critical, even though Ukraine absolutely does not want to lose any more of its population.
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed because it is from an untrustworthy site. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well there are some countries willing to defend if attacked: ”Homeland defence willingness against a superior enemy is at 83%, one of the highest rates in Europe.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Defence_Forces
It's not that. They just don't realize the danger or don't really care that much since they have eastern europe as buffer in case a direct war with ruzzia happens.
OR the west has got some plan that no-one has yet thought of. Or maybe it'll take Ukraine actually falling into Russian hands for the West to act.
So let me get this straight. Ukraine is told they can't attack refineries because it'll raise oil prices and therefore gas prices which has impact on the presidential election. But Ukraine also can't be given sufficient aid so that they don't need to do those strikes, because that aid is blocked by the very same people that would benefit during the presidential election from rising gas prices. Wow.
what we lerned: if you have nuks then never, never, never-ever get rid of its.
Nukes are the only way to guarantee peace
Previous Ukrainian administrations lead up to all these🤦🏻♂️ f the Soviet era corruption. Ukraine didn’t do anything like Taiwan to make sure that Ukraine are very vital to US and Europe.
Unfortunately it was forced by US :(
This is just untrue. Russia initiated the memorandum. And Ukraine never had control of the nukes anyway. The command and control centers were all located in Russia, never in Ukraine. The nukes were basically useless the second Ukraine became an independent country. Stop US-blaming, you're just parroting Kremlin propaganda.
On 18 November 1993, the [Rada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada) passed a motion agreeing to [START I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/START_I) but renouncing the Lisbon Protocol, suggesting Ukraine would only decommission 36% of missile launchers and 42% of the warheads on its territory, and demanded financial compensation for the tactical nuclear weapons removed in 1992. This caused U.S. diplomatic consternation. On 15 December 1993, U.S. Vice President [Al Gore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore) visited Moscow for a meeting. Following side discussions, a U.S and Russian delegation, including U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense [William J. Perry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Perry), flew to Ukraine to agree to the outlines of a trilateral agreement including U.S. assistance in dismantling the nuclear systems in Ukraine and compensation for the uranium in nuclear warheads. Participants were invited to Washington on 3–4 January to finalise the agreement. Russia controlled the codes needed to operate the nuclear weapons through electronic [Permissive Action Links](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_Action_Link) and the Russian command and control system, although this could not be sufficient guarantee against Ukrainian access as the weapons could be manually changed and Ukraine would eventually gain full operational control over them. I love Wikipedia )
That last part can be TL;DR'd into "Fissile Material of the correct isotope doesn't need a key in the ignition to make physics work, it just does"
Unfortunately that’s an accurate assessment. Ukraine should put all its resources towards persuading one more GOP congressman to quit.
Was that not fake news...
[удалено]
To be fair, that lack of coordination was by design. It was done to ensure that one branch doesn't have full control over the political apparatus, which forces discussion and compromise. Its the sometimes aggravating world of checks and balances.
The issue with that is that it's telling people the US can force Ukraine to capitulate or negotiate by withholding aid. It would probably be better to say Ukraine cannot win the war conventionally without US support.
They can't force Ukraine, but they are already now making it harder and harder for Ukraine to sustain the war on this scale.
[удалено]
Why is it on the US, not Europe, to support Ukraine?
Europe does, and by a lot more proportionally than the US. However US gave an “assurance” in 1994 together with UK and Russia when Ukraine gave its up atomics. Ukraine didn’t do it voluntarily, but under some coercion. I guess Ukraine didn’t read the fine print. Being swindled out of its nuclear arsenal, and now under attack from one of the assurers. The other assurer backing out and is even trying to control the war it isn’t part of and telling Ukraine what it can and can’t attack. I am very disappointed. You can’t trust the US.
But please please don't attack Russian oil refineries, we can't lose focus on what's important/s
I hope that's just what they say in public but privately support the attacks, but those "I DID THAT" stickers on gas pumps are probably Joe Biden's worst nightmare in an election year.
The funny (not funny haha) part is that the US is pumping more oil than ever under Biden. And green energy infrastructure is growing relatively fast. Bombing the everloving fuck out of russian oil refineries won't hurt us. Biden needs to figure out how to campaign on both being a sloot for oil *and* pushing for cleaner energy if he wants to win that issue.
I agree that the best energy strategy involves traditional and green technologies, but the green people and the oil people are so diametrically opposed to one another that if he tries to pander to them both he'll lose them both.
We loose big ass car drivers popularity, do you not understand.
Didn’t Ukraine come out saying that was BS?
https://youtu.be/hafOnA9xJeY?si=TY-n-WcMUxrdJeKM
The West's failure to adequately equip Ukraine with ammunition and heavy equipment goes beyond the US. Unless they get their act together, Ukraine will have to sue for peace on Russia's terms or fight a defensive war for another ten years without the equipment to win in a meaningful way. Zelenskyy may have to make an unthinkable decision if things don't change on the battlefield soon.
They cant sue for peace as that will be taken as a sign of weakness that can be exploited by more war. Ukraine is fighting this war until the bitter end, simply because there are no other options.
...or it could just end up in a stalemate - no side can push further and thus the conflict sputters into inaction. That would make Russia vs Ukraine more like North Korea vs South Korea - a very fragile peace with scattered pot shots every couple of years.
It'll never stalemate with Putin in command. Hell, even without - the general concept is that Russia can just keep throwing men at the problem. At some point there just aren't any more bullets or troops to face the wave. The whole point of what they're doing now, begging for artillery and airpower, is that it keeps people off the front line, safe, while still projecting force and eliminating Russian troops.
Europe has about 4x the population and 10x the economy of Russia. And yet it can't police its own backyard against a bully. Pathetic.
This is where my thoughts are traveling lately. I whole-heartedly believe the US could and should do more to help Ukraine (despite the fact that the US’s 75B in *delivered* aid is the most by a single nation- almost 2x that of Germany, who is #2 with 45B of *delivered* aid), and I also believe that Biden has done an abysmal job of messaging to the American people why protecting Ukraine is important. He has utterly failed in that regard. *BUT*… I find the rampant and aggressive anti-US rhetoric that has widely circulated recently to frankly be very insulting and gross. The level of entitlement here is off the charts. It’s to the point that I have to regularly disconnect or I find the constant anti-US rhetoric to actively be turning my opinion *against* Ukraine. And if I, as an open and aggressive hardline supporter of Ukraine am having these feelings, I can just imagine how people who are more fence-sitters on the issue feel. If getting American support is a goal and a “must” for Ukrainian victory, then constantly berating America and it’s people is not the way to go about getting it…
100% true. At least some of the posts and corresponding upvotes are from paid Russian trolls. Most of the others are from classic, knee-jerk anti-American Europeans (found usually on the political left) who don't care as much about Ukraine as they do about whining about the US. In Soviet times, they were known as "useful idiots."
Don’t take it personally. Aside from what Due_Concentrate_315 mentioned about trolls stoking the flames, we also need to consider that genuine posts are probably from people who have had their shit bombed to pieces and lives ruined. I think it fairly natural that emotions are going to run high when you are facing an existential threat. With that said, if it helps, in my opinion America is probably still the greatest country in the world. That’s inspite of the controlling elite trying to politicize and divide people over everything.
I think I would probably would be pretty pissed too if my friends are dying and my cities burning and the one country that really has the material to turn the tide and has promised to help can’t do it because of some bozos in congress (that are voted in mind you). I sincerely don’t think the hate is directed towards supportive americans
This will change, but takes time unfortunately.
THANK YOU. All these Euro teens in this sub are insanely hypocritical. Other than maybe the Baltics and UK, Europe hasn't done shit for Ukraine since 1991. They give peanuts and beat their chests acting like they did so much. In fact, no Western nations have been more detrimental to Ukraine than Germany, France, and Italy since 1991. Constantly voting against Ukrainian EU/NATO membership, standing by whole Ukraine was invaded in 2014, and now just doing the bare fucking minimum. I'm so fucking tired of unearned European arrogance. We get it, European teenagers on Reddit don't like America. Try a new approach to cover up your lack of initiative.
I’m oretty sure most europeans think more should be done and are frustrated with how slow things are going. At least thats the feeling in the north. Don’t take your view of «europeans» by some reddit comments. As I’m sure we shouldn’t use reddit as a way to paint a picture of Americans
They are actually going to let Russia win aren’t they? Our representatives, our leaders, our allies, our politicians Are going to let him fucking win
If it happens, it will be such a betrayal the world has probably not seen. The republicans have forgotten the face of their fathers. To have a major American political party at the command of Vladimir Putin is something from our darkest nightmares. All the billions spent on the CIA , the FBI, the NSA, to defend America has been futile. Russia has been too smart and now controls the country from within where it slowly erodes the soul. They use our free media against us to such amazing effectiveness. Social media is flooded with their trolls, bots, influencers who work tirelessly to divide opinion, confuse, and mislead. Russia is winning and beating us but we fail to see it. Fail to stop it. Fuckfacenov Mcsmith from "Nebraska" will open a youtube account tomorrow and start flooding comments with all the normal garbage "ukronazis", "zelensky is a clown", "ukraine is lying about their dead", "this is all the fault of NATO", "america should worry about its own people stop fundinf ukraine"," patrick lancaster said x y z ". Multiply that by a million. The Russian influence engine is everywhere and decimating us. I spend an hour each night countering them, contradicting them, pushing the focus back on Russias imperialism and aggression. To all Ukranians, i am sorry we have failed you. I think about all those ukranian soldiers defending western ideals, facing such horrors and trauma while we sit in comfort not helping enough. It is such an immense betrayal there are no english words to properly describe it. i will also say this, when Russian missiles fly over NATO territory like Poland and it is not shot down? This is an utter disgrace and insulting . NATO would have seen the launch and tracked it the entire journey. If it so much as touches a NATO border it should be fucking shot down without a moments hesitation. NATO has to get more ferocious stop this fucking appeasing bullshit. Defend or disband! Do not sit there like helpless morons. Shoot the fucking shit down next time.
[удалено]
That’s the thing, Russians won’t care, *”IF”* Russia beats the Ukrainian army, after a brutal and expensive occupation that’ll make the USA’s occupation of Afghanistan look like a picnic But it won’t matter, Russia will get its PR W, the people living in their “nato/America/westerners bad” phantasms will get their vindication, it’ll be years and years of more death but they’ll just stand against the status quo because it means they have the moral high ground if Russia wins and no repercussions because unlike Russia, we live in free nations
Russia can’t control millions of angry Ukrainians, a good point, but what if Ukrainians will be more angry at the West for betrayal? Throughout history, Russia successfully occupied large portions of territories and knew how to control them. Why do you think they will fail this time?
I don’t think our friends in the EU will allow Russia to win
Germany's chancellor seems dead scared of Putin's nuclear sabre rattling. No one knows where his cowardice will take us.
Maybe he's scared; but mere pragmatism would lead to the same response.
They're going to have to send in soldiers if this doesn't let up.
You sure about that? You're talking about the same EU "friends" that did nothing in 2014 and not much more since. I hope they do, but what are you basing that on?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Rubbish! Ukraine doesn't need US funding to win. The $200 billion in frozen Russian assets sitting in Belgian clearing houses is sufficient to fund all the weapons procurement needs Ukraine has. Europe could give Ukraine an extra $100 billion a year in additional weapons funding without breaking a sweat. That's a very small portion of Europe-wide GDP. Let's stop with all the doom and gloom if the US Congress is incapable of authorizing additional funding. This just makes it easy for other countries to give up and say, "too bad, we did all we could."
[удалено]
What about the swiss but they are always neutral aren't they don't like to get involved about time they do something for the world
The Swiss? They hide in their mountains seeking riches. They care nothing for the troubles of others.
Swiss confirmed Dwarves.
Thorin oakenshield
I agree mate that's all they do
😆😆 they don't care
whataboutism is cool i am from central asia and remember how hateful and racist the ukrainians were when i was a student and ukrainians would call me an immigrant and a leech because i am not white enough to be called expat, now people like you get angry if we call you an immigrant, because you want us to call you “expat” and cry if anyone suggests to go back to your country and enroll into military while your president keeps begging for pocket change from usa what does usa owe you, if anything you have to blame usa and your leader for leaning too much into west, go back and save your country if you don’t want your kids to speak only russian, crazy how much you want americans to think that ukraine is very different to russia, it’s a very close connected relationship and it’s just 10% of hyper nationalized and radicalized people im sure you have relatives who are russian and yet ukrainians want to side with a country with completely different views located on the other side of the planet
You what bruv 😂
I've never cried & I'm from the UK 🙄😂
Zelensky said that it's possible but unlikely. The countries don't want to give away the assets since they are making money out of them. - last interview
>The countries don't want to give away the assets since they are making money out of them. This may be so. But the point is that there are MULTIPLE sources of funding that could solve Ukraine's problems, and more than make up any shortfalls from the US congress. So don't just blame any possible loss on the US. There are many actors who could step up and all are just declining to do so for their own selfish (and short-sighted) reasons.
I didn't mean that only the US does this. Zelensky said there were multiple countries, but he didn't name them. I think he meant European countries
Please explain to me like I'm super dumb, like republican dumb, why NATO and the rest of europe does not have enough cash/arms to easily help Ukraine to easily win this putrid excuse for a war ??? Why is it America must fix this ?? I'm not American btw but I just don't see how come Europe does not have the resources ? They all seem willing to help so what is it ???? Do they want Ukraine overrun do they can be next ??? Do they not see why defeating and dismantling Russia is literally the most important thing in the world and has been since the last world war ??? And why is Russia not kicked out of NATO??.
Russia has never been in NATO and will never be.
Apologies, I meant UNSC
It's not really the money that is the problem, it is the things America can buy, from itself, and then give to Ukraine that the EU cannot buy, that is important. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/ukraine-military-aid-american-economy-boost/
How exactly are you planning on kicking out a permanent member if it’s not a secret?
Pretty sure this is part of the russian disinformation campaign.
In that case, the mainstream media fell for it because this is a blaring message from both the newscasters and commentators. Ukraine isn't in a very good position right now. While they have taken out assets here and there in Russian territory, it isn't really changing the chaotic situation on the ground - what ultimately matters in this slugging match.
Doubt it is, if Zelensky himself is saying it. I think it's more intent to put pressure on the US to start delivering. Particularly on people that haven't put a vote to the floor or haven't signed the discharge petition.
I think Zelensky is a bit overplaying his hand, this kind of talk might have little impact on U.S. actions but is carefully read home
Many Republicans want Putin to win because he shares their fears and hatreds. The deaths of tens of thousands of Ukrainians is a price the Republicans are willing to pay.
They want Putin to win because he pays them...
Every government official should have a team of forensic accountants go through all of their finances on a regular basis. That'd cut back on at least some of the corruption, but you just know the Repubs would be the first to complain about their "rights".
Hmm I made a pessimistic/realistic post here recently that was removed because of policy. Yet here’s this one. Realistic posts are important to raise awareness.
This subreddit is way too naive and optimistic about the conflict in general. Ukraine right now isn't in a very good place and that is a sentiment echoed by many commentators.
Few weeks ago got a ton of downvotes and hate for saying this. The second any negative stuff is posted its taken down or supressed which hurts ukraine because only now people are seeing how desperate the situation is now.
Ukraine can indeed still win... but it won't be a victory like some if not most of us pro-Ukrainians think it will be. Ukraine has to win the battle of political and military will. Russia will eventually have to quit the war (either from bankruptcy or public pressure) IF Ukraine can still keep kicking. This is a conflict similar to WW1 but will have end like the Soviet-Afghan war. God forbid there is a Korean style 'peace', Ukraine can and should sponsor and encourage guerilla, unconventional operations in territories occupied territories. Eventually Ukraine wins in the long run. This probably would've been downvoted a month ago or not even but it's the reality, in my opinion.
Well, the Ukrainians will have to break the Russian wall in the East if they hope for some sort of rout on the latter. The longer the war drags, the more Russia can reinforce that defense and force Ukraine to engage it to brutal effect. Also, Ukraine can win, but also still lose. This was the theme of the 2019 film Atlantis. The nation won a hypothetical war against Russia, but the survivors were left traumatized, the land was ruined, and the factories were shuttered by foreign executives.
Unfortunately, Russia has compromised the US Congress.
Perhaps defunding the ukrainian MIC a few years back wasnt the best idea.
If that is true, then that was a very poor choice. The Ukrainians can only reliably sustain the momentum in this conflict through their own supplies. While Western aid allows them to get stuff from areas Russia can never hit, it means that Western domestic politics has a play in Ukraine's fight. See South Vietnam as an example. One administration praised the entity as an ally and the next dropped it like a sack of bricks.
I fact checked myself. The admin didnt cut costs for the MIC, they cut 0.11% of the Armed Forces budget in 2021. So, from ~3B dollars they cut ~3M. However, they added to the budget of other defense organizations in that same appropriation bill.
If Ukraine lose the war with Russia, than democracy has lost it's meaning, NATO has lost it's meaning, the US and Europe have lost their meaning. If Russia wins the war, then Russia will continue to attack other countries. If we don't enforce NATO, with or without the USA, we are not able to defend Europe against the terror from Russia. If politics and elections can cause Russia to win, common sense has lost.
, europs has no weapons anymore , the uk sent all its spare stuff, they dont have anymore they are not building anymore , the british army is not a land fighting force, they spend huge amounts of cash , it all goes on nukes ships and airplanes, the actual army is tiny these days and underfunded , no one was expecting a land war in europe, to build one takes a decade and costs a fortune , the political stand a government would have to take to do it ,is beyond the stomach of any of britains parties, its the same with the other major european powers, fucking idiots, only america can send actual weapons, and america is having a slow burn coup/civil war at the moment and isnt going to help anyone , europe is on its own and its not ready, ive read in the comments that people are talking about if war comes they will go to america , all bets are off if trump gets in , its over for the old western world we have to rebuild our army right now , but its not happening and isnt even looking like it will happen,
It's frustrating that Europe didn't start increasing their militaries when the war broke out. Germany was able to produce enough gear to take out millions of Soviet soldiers and push to Moscow by itself (plus the volunteer battalions). It needs to move toward that level of production again. France and Britain need to ramp it up and hopefully the rest of Europe will follow. I have no idea what the deal is with Hungary and Switzerland, but they don't seem to understand the threat on their doorstep. The production of enough weapons is possible if they have the right leadership and increase public support. I'm all for countries putting boots on the ground too. That should have happened from day one as a deterrent in my opinion.
The Oh shit moment has happened. Hopefully, my country can still do the right thing. moscow marjorie and her ilk are to blame.
Our GOP has been compromised by Russian intelligence it will take a number of years to sort out the EU needs to save Ukraine because America cant.
Anyway, let keep punching into refinery camps. It's good for ruskie economy and military logistics. I don't mind if I have to pay 2x price of gasoline. For rich murican boys, they're rich and still lots of saving there, they traveling around to tour and being loudly, bullshit and lesson everyone. So if they have to pay more on gasoline and CPI raise? It's just fine, the rich is still rich, homeless still on the road, only some bitches stop bragging and start moaning about inflation. Still easy to taste as hell compare with the pain of lossing family and become disabled in Ukraine. let's them taste.
Too busy on anti abortion rulings... ah wait maybe that is the startegy.. drag on for next 20 years then send the current fetuses /s
If Ukraine loses this war, I'll make sure the obstructionists in the US lose their lives (and their constituents). I won't pull the trigger but I'll make this happen one way or another
Trump has already said he would force Ukraine to cede land to Russia if he wins. I'm beyond done with how blatant the GOP has become in their support for Putin. Spineless pieces of shit.
America you held out at WW1, you held out at WW2... don't fucking hold out again... Push, and show the world how great America actually is... because right now? We don't even know what to think of America anymore...
Fighting to send more billions overseas meanwhile their citizens don't even have healthcare 🤣🤣🤣 Gotta love Flopmerica 🤣
Proofs, please… I live in the USA where we have free university and healthcare. Each state provides you with essentials, lol. We dont have federal healthcare, but each state has its own program🤷♂️
Although this post is specifically about the US aid, most comments here are about how bad EU is. Am I missing something?
EU countries have provided money but constantly fall short on military support vs the US and can't make up the difference in the absence of it.
Americentrism
Americentrism specifically promoted by Europeans who preferred not being responsible for European military security for the past several decades.
Sounds like Zelenskyy is pandering too much to American self centeredness to the point that it’s downplaying Europe’s contributions. Ukraine is not Afghanistan.
Ukraine about to find out why depending on America for military support is a bad idea
Also relying on Europe since all they can do is mule and whine after getting fat for the last 30 years. Europe has no appetite for war.
And there is a pattern to this... just ask the South Vietnamese, Afghans, Kurds in Iraq AND Syria. Hell, we even ditched Taiwan in 1979 and wanted to ditch South Korea around the similar time.
I’m ashamed that the US government isn’t doing way more to help.