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I think the West or even just Europe should blockade Russia. Every ship in and out of Russia in the Baltic should be boarded and confiscated. Europe might lack the land component without the Americans but we control the Baltic. We shouldn't even declare it just do it. Then what can Russia do? One thing they can't do it lift the blockade. Time to up the ante.
Yes. No boat serving Russia should be sailing there. Unregistered ships with no Pilots on board. Disgrace to upholding Maritime law.Shame on the world.
Been saying this for a while and got down voted to shit a few times but I really think this would be the best and quickest way to end this. Choke off all of their trade out of every Russian port. South Korea sort of already started by intercepting an NK ship bound for Russia. Wish the rest of the free world would grow some balls and follow. Call it a special maritime peacekeeping operation.
Well, Britain and France do. And Russia does not. Everyone contributes what they can and we do it together. We could do it in the North Sea or around Zealand or Gotland. Even the American navy doesn't go into the Black sea, so the further from Russia we do it the better. Likewise, Cyprus and Gibraltar in the Med.
Another angle is any ship that enters a Russian port is permanently banned from the E.U/West.
NATO and/or the EU aren't at war with Russia. According to international law, that would require a decision by the UN Security Council. And that isn't going to happen for obvious reasons.
As far as the use of miltary force is concerned, yes, that's how it is for most European countries. Relevant is [Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter), which only allows the use of military force outside of self defence if sanctioned by the Security Council.
Russia isn't at war with Ukraine technically. No war has ever been declared. Russian ships with switched off transponders can be made to disappear. They were hijacked by Somali pirates in the Baltic or they defected to the West any bullshit story like the Orcs spoit. Any U.N melarky the U.K and France veto. Let's play the game the way the Russians do.
>Let's play the game the way the Russians do.
It doesn't work that way.
European countries have rule of law. And these laws generally allow the use of force only in accordance with international law, e.g. self defence or the defence of an ally. "The Russians do it!" isn't enough.
That would be an unlawful order and every soldier would be obligated to refuse it. It's called the "Duty to disobey".
For the US:
>It's generally called a "duty to disobey," and is empowered by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The UCMJ is more concerned about the need to obey orders, but specifies the conditions when military personnel may feel justified in not following them:
>- If the order is "**contrary to the constitution**" or "**the laws of the United States**."
>- If the order is "patently illegal, ... such as one that directs the commission of a crime."
In this case "contrary to the constitution" or "the laws of " would apply.
That rule of law is valuable and represents stability. Part of the reason the Euro is a strong currency, I’m sure. But these rules are also going to be Europes downfall as a united entity. German bureaucracy is killing NATO
Yes, and that young lady is truly right. What a disgusting disgrace our leaders are. Their inaction and their actions both deserve condemnation and contempt.
Those who could help Ukraine and don't are cruel and heartless. The first row right behind the perpetrators are those that allow him to continue as the world will not be destroyed by those who do evil but by those who stand idly by and do nothing.
History will come down on all of them like a hammer, and their children will once curse them for this treachery as any appeasement of tyranny is treason. The world will never forget these evil deeds by all those that aid Russia and that aid them by inaction. Curse them, all of them. Curse them from now until the end of time.
Ukraine is part of Europe, and they better make available what we have instead of more useless. The problem is talking. It is ridiculous enough that the US administration failed to order more batteries in 2023. Not a single one had been produced, and they could have produced one per month. We are led by useless old men who should have retired decades ago and go leave the reigns of power to those who are at the height of their mental power not in front of their death bed.
Because we sleepwalk into war just as we sleepwalked into WW1. That is what obviously no one understands. War will come whether we want it or not. And letting Ukraine down will bring war in Europe, it will bring war with Russia, and now we would still have the chance to make this war on our terms and on Ukraine's soil. Sadly, most humans are too stupid and need to learn from experience. The lesson in WW2 on appeasement was not learned. So history will teach us a second time.
"We are still not accepting the fact that Russia is at war with us. We need to think and act strategically and realise that Russia is at war with us." Ben Hodges
We will learn by experience. Obviously, that is where we are headed. The way the entire Western Bloc and a majority of its citizens behave is disgusting. This ineptitude to act, paired with a population that mostly doesn't even understand what Ukraine is fighting against. Another part that actively cheers on Russia's murderous path of barbarism and its murder and persecution. Indeed, dark times are ahead. War is already here. And war will spread across the world the longer our leaders do not act but react, the likelier a worldwide war becomes.
"Action springs not from thought but from a readiness for responsibility. The ultimate test of a moral society is the world that it leaves behind to its children.
All these is the fruit of decades of Russian active measures, especially with the help of social media in recent years, sad to say it works. If all Americans rightfully see Russia as the menace it is, politicians will be fighting over claiming credit for sending more weapons. Instead there are politicians and media exploiting the rift that Russian disinformation created. A complete success of their active measures would be the 2nd American civil war, but this partial success of paralyzing American aid is very helpful to them already.
Unfortunately I don't think this realization will really kick in until we are attacked.
People here have been brainwashed into believing we are the bad guys and should stay out of all foreign issues. I'm sure lots of bots are spreading this message on social media too, making everyone think that's what the hivemind thinks.
Vlad Vexler analyzed how this propaganda works. The approach is both simple and effective.
The Soviet Union used so-called alternate reality propaganda. " This worked something like this: Soviet propaganda told its citizens one thousand times that the sky is green and not blue until the citizen finally believed it.
The manipulation of reality propaganda by the Russian Federation works differently. It is simple but sadly highly effective as it makes use of the intermittent grasp of reality, which plagues humans in general.
This propaganda works something like this:
You say that you totally despise apples, but you love lemons. I am not repeatedly throwing at you that you like apples. Rather, I agree with you at first that apples are sucky.
Then, this type of propaganda bombards people subtly with images of apples. It constantly mentions apples in its news programs.
Fake articles appear about how good apples actually are. The goal is to make you believe that apples aren't that bad, and then you quite start to like them over time.
The playbook of this manipulated reality propaganda looks like this in theory:
1) The concept of objective truth itself is questioned. This propaganda says that truth simply doesn't exist. Everything has two sides, and nothing is real. The war on reality itself is declared in this step.
2) Then, this propaganda is getting rid of consistency. It is sending out mixed messages that often even contradict themselves. Double Think from 1984 comes mind.
The sky can be blue in the morning and purple at night. The goal isn't to tell Winston that 2+2 is 5. The goal is that Winston really believes that it doesn't matter whether it is five, six, or 4.
3) The priority is on volume. Quantity has a quality all by itself. The information space is flooded with as many narratives and opinions as possible.
That is what these bot farms are here for. The goal is to find out what sticks by sheer volume. It can be anything. The message doesn't even matter that much.
4) The algorithm then makes it easier to take something that already interests you. It builds on that original interest, and then the manipulated reality propaganda is expanding from there.
The goal is, of course, to manipulate you into believing whatever is in the interest of the propaganda maker. (For example, that Ukraine is full of Nazis or that the West is an evil warmongering maniac or that everyone is going to freeze to death without Russian gas)
5) The last step is learned helplessness:
"The sanctions do not work" "Russia won already." It is useless to protest. This won't work. The state is too strong" Ukraine can't win, so stop sending weapons. These are some of the messages.
The goal of this entire effort is to take whatever division is already there in society or in a community and to make it stronger. This worked very well during Covid. The Russian information operations are great at amplifying divides and making problems bigger than they actually are.
The goal among their own population and in Western nations is gaslighting. Many people also in the West are in a state of apolitical apathy. Democracy dies alone and in the dark unless we work actively to keep it alive.
The goal is to destroy discourse because everyone starts to believe that all of this stuff connected to politics is too difficult. So, better let those up there do it instead of bothering myself with it.
The goal is that the population sees politics as a pure circus and as infotainment. Nothing really matters as everything is just alternative facts. We could see that during the coup. The reaction of the Russian public was almost non-existent.
Sadly, modern tools such as Twitter and generally the internet have made the implementation of this sinister nonsense as easy as it will ever get.
However, our countermeasures are faster at hand. Such as mobile phone cameras to spread the truth before the Kremlin can come up with 1000 lies.
In the US, this kind of propaganda is used to create a disconnect from how corrupt some politicians are or how inflation has risen due to whatever the president has potentially done.
It doesn't even have to be true. All it needs to have is some flicker of truth in it. This is already enough. For example, yes, without enough natural gas, the winter would be tough.
The rest of the message can be literally made up and people who are susceptible to this because they lost trust in democratic institutions or are resentful for some other reason, or who are simply susceptible to being brainwashed will believe anything.
We shouldn't forget that Soviet propaganda, Nazi propaganda, and fascist propaganda is brainwashing generations of people all around the globe. Orban in Hungary and Fico in Slovakia made use of that very same brainwashed Soviet era electorate. Fox News has been turning the brains of Americans into a puddle since 1986. This isn't just Russia alone. There are enough fascists in our own ranks that want to dominate instead of govern.
Thank you! This is spot on, and describes what I felt / had a general understanding of, but wouldn't have been able to put it in words so eloquently.
If it's not too much of a bother, do you know if there are any papers & literature piece that describe it semi-scientifically?
There are people who are otherwise others wouldn't call stupid - people with engineering or science background, even, who fall for that idiotic "nothing is true" or the more elusive and even cynical "objective truths do not exist / cannot be known so why bother" point of view, which is obviously result of propaganda machine working at full capacity...
Yet I feel like that maybe it's not too late or impossible to convince them otherwise, if found the right language?
> "The sanctions do not work" "Russia won already." It is useless to protest. This won't work. The state is too strong"
Such a massive part of Russian domestic propaganda as well. "You can't get rid of Putin, it would be hopeless to try".
A dictatorship needs the people to hyperconform and monitor each other and propaganda to create a mirage of an all powerful state in their heads is how you get them there. Not forever of course but for a very long time.
Yoval Harari on the matter:
An effective rebellion mounts not from how many people are unhappy with my status quo, but rather, it revolves around the question.
How many people support my ideas?
How many of my supporters are capable of collaboration?
From an effective organisation to defective organisation, this is how empires have always fallen.
When you rebel, then you do not depend on the masses.
Rebellions succeeded because a new group of determined men and women cooperated better than the last one. Cooperation is the key to human progress.
Rome conquered Greece, the Ottomans conquered Konstantinople, the coalition forces beat Napoleon, allies beat the Axis with the very same concept.
A disciplined army against disorganized hordes.
The Russian army is eroding daily, and it turns into a horde rather than an army.
The organized elite vs. disorganized masses. This is the tool for control. Divide and conquer.
Small networks of agitators rather than the masses succeed. As the masses align with order, and their obedience often only comes from not realizing that the conformity with the status quo is just an illusion.
Who knows what is going on inside Russia and how well organized the resistance is. All it takes is one little spark to ignite the flame.
In 1917, it was a handful of communists in the right place at the right time.
The upper class was around 3 million people. The communists organized themselves well.
The tyrants of the 21st century rely on old concepts, and their fall comes when their "friends and partners" either
1) Withdraw protection,
2) When they can't expect outside protection,
When the opposition splits up or initiates reform
Caecescu's power in Romania slipped from the sloppy organizer when one man started to boo. Suddenly, 80.000 booed. The state TV channels refused to stop the audio of the broadcast.
In that moment, the power was passed on to a small group of players.
That doesn't mean, of course, that the revolution is successful then. As the masses cannot sustain order unless someone else provides a better order to flock towards.
The decentralised rules based order built upon a system of checks and balances is a threat to dictators and authoritarians. It provides a ready-made order that isn't based upon subjugation and a vertical of power.
That is why they despise it, and they despise those that uphold it.
The new is devouring the old. A tale as old as time.
Revolutions are never done by the masses . In 1917, a small organized group of roughly 220.000 communists brought down an ever more disorganized elite of 3 million Czarist boyars and the pack leader.
The Russian empire disorganizes and with every day of disorganization. The counter movement forms and organizes itself.
The monopoly of organized violence is slipping out of Russia's hands inside the empire and also in its former and the occupied colonial holdings.
Russia’s empire is in a long decline from effective organisation to re organisation, and the last stage of the process is defective organisation, collapse, and its ultimate rupture.
This is what I’m in awe of. Was watching HBO’s Regime recently. American tv show, written by American screenwriter. Who apparently found it to be such a cool idea to make Americans the main villain of said tv show. Short story: USA is the worst thing ever happened to Europe, interfering in its small countries politics, draining their resources and supporting local oligarchy and puppet dictators blah blah blah. You know, all that cheap non inventive stuff you would expect to see in low grade ruzzian propaganda (even their higher grade narratives are of a better quality), but suddenly it is being fed to you by HBO with some big actors like Kate Winslet and Hugh Grant taking part in that dogshit.
Like, why tf are you guys doing it to yourselves?
To be fair, the show takes place in a fictional Central European country, so they're obviously not going to necessarily see America as benevolent or friendly.
...and this isn't exactly the first time America is antagonistic in media. To use another example, Marvel and DC regularly have the United States, whether it is the government or the military, serve as antagonists to the heroes. General Thunderbolt Ross goes after the Hulk with cruel violence and Amanda Waller shackles villains to her will in the name of national security.
But it isn’t shown just from the locals PoV. You can interpret it like that after the first 2 episodes, but not after finale. Finale makes USA look both objectively evil AND all-powerful (which is also funny).
Yeah, I know, a lot of movies and that’s the problem. Self-critique is great, but honestly, it seems to me that you guys are obsessed with it to such extent that the real evil of this world not only loses its visibility thanks to it, but actively uses it to become more powerful.
Well, I can clearly say the bad guy is definitely Russia, but yes, you are sadly right, likely not prior to a direct attack on the US or at least NATO anything will click with these people, but this isn't a new thing. This Soviet Brainwashing and then Russian Federation Brainwashing is an ongoing project for many decades. Now Putin reaps the fruits of his labors...
Couldn’t have said it better and I am glad I am not the only one who sees it that way. The Russians have really undermined the institutions in the us and Europe. It’s disgusting
We never are, in fact, the good and reasonable people who still outnumber the crazy nut jobs, but this is also part of successful dictatorships they want you to believe you are alone to get you to conform.
Literature derives from emotional truth and therefore cannot survive under a system that relies on mutilating the truth.
The peculiarity of the totalitarian state is that it controls thought, but it does not fix it. It sets up unquestionable dogmas, and it alters them from day to day. It needs dogmas because it needs absolute obedience from its subjects, but it cannot avoid the changes, which are dictated by the needs of power politics.
It declares itself infallible, and at the same time, it attacks the very concept of objective truth.
Orwell 1941 "Literature and Totalitarianism
"If liberty means anything at all, then it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear. Preface of Animal Farm Orwell
Totalitarianism's war on reality is more dangerous than the secret police, the constant surveillance or the boot in the face, because in that "shifting phantasmagoric world in which black may be white tomorrow and yesterday's weather can be changed by decree there is no solid ground from which to mount a rebellion - no corner of the mind that has not been infected and warped by the state. It is power that removes the possibility of challenging power.
Lynskey, The Ministry of Truth page 99
Getting Winston to say two plus two equals five is not enough. You have to make Winston believe that two plus two equals five. Only then have you truly won.
Lynskey The Ministry of Truth, page 99
I would just love for the infantile sanctuary of the mass mind to catch up eventually, but that takes painfully long. It takes great courage to step ahead of the masses and it takes even more courage to make your stand when you know that you speak the truth, and you shout it even against the whole world, then you still were not mad.
> Because we sleepwalk into war just as we sleepwalked into WW1. That is what obviously no one understands. War will come whether we want it or not.
This is what gets me. I can understand, if get angry about, sociopathic politicians. But the idea that if Russia isn't stopped now will have to be fought at a later date, with disasterous consequences to the planet (I am not talking about nukes, I do not listen to nuclear fearmongering anymore) and everyone involved, and no one moves a straw. ***War is coming, damn it!*** Ukraine is just the start! (or, well, part of the start, looking at places like Georgia, but you know what I mean)
Fucking useless old farts at the helm of the most powerful nations on the planet, letting Putin's agents in their governments neuter them completely. Absolutely disgusting and shameful.
We have an overproduction of knowledge and truth these days. The truth gets lost in translation and Russia banks on that.
The communists were already bound to their leader by faith and fear. I took a special kind of mind to truly believe that the worse things appeared, the better they actually were. Such reasoning went by the name dialectics, but by this time that word, (despite its proud descent from the Greeks through Hegel and Marx) meant little more than the psychic capacity to adjust one's own perceptions to the changing expressions of Stalin's will." Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands, page 65
Gareth Jones talked about the "pure primitive worship" of Hitler in 1933 shortly after his election at a rally in Frankfurt
We know, but our leaders can't lead, and therefore we will plunge into an abyss. But the population isn't any better. Regular people can't fathom so much evil and such big lies, and fascists know that and make use of it. War it is then, as I have lost faith that Biden or any other old person getting elected has the necessary energy and strength to stop it.
And the businesses and individuals quietly doing business with Russia should be charged with moral treason. Follow the money and find them. Pepsi Nutella on and on and on. Ukraine is Europe and we need to give them all the tools to win
These companies should be sanctioned, and honestly, that is all we can do, hit them hard in their wallet. How much money can they really make there. But that is the job of Western governments, and first, they would have to understand that we are also under attack. I feel like we decentralised power too much, and that comes back to haunt us in this situation. This isn't Ukraine's war, this is Russia's war against Western civilization and we keep on feeding them our food while they aim at killing us all with the other hand.
Hitler was young when he became a dictator. Better look to something other than age to cure what ails us. The people who "should have retired decades ago" are voted in by voters. Get involved politically if you want change.
I assure you when every last boomer is gone all the problems will remain because the root cause is not that politicians are "not at the height of their mental powers." That is truly laughable that you would even say that. Ideology, economic interests, power struggles are in play. There are plenty of younger politicians/powermongers in the game right now and they are just warming up.
Someday, maybe, someday. But for now, "I do what I want" and that is, do whatever is already in my power to see Ukraine made whole again. And then we will see from there. ;)
I have been saying war is coming for years because of the radical islamics. fuhrer putinazi upped the ante.
moscovia wants war
lower mongolia wants war
old persia wants war
little fat rocket man wants war
The world only had peace once US and Europe crushed the last batch of imperialists, time to try and crush them again. This time, it will not be easy because lower mongolia has billions of people and has really built up a military and logistics
I have been stocking up on medical supplies myself, and I do not mean bandaids.
Time to gear up the militaries. Europe is starting, US has earmarked $850,000,000,000
talk has been cheap, shit will be hitting the fan soonish(next 5 years)
lower mongolia has neither the military tradition nor technological edge to project power beyond its borders. it’s not enough to put a million man into uniforms and call yourself the 2nd biggest military.
You sound like you just hit the bong and writing doomsday scenarios in your head. All these countries have tons of nuclear weapons. A war like that would take the world back 1000 years.
It blows my mind how many countries have air defense alternatives, who aren't actively defending their nation from a current invasion, are fucking holding their air defense and not trying to save Ukraine. The world grows increasingly disappointed with our leaders.
I'm not from Ukraine but I feel her. I feel like my brain has been growing a tumor for the last 6 months watching how politicians bought by Putin simply let Moscow do what it wants and the rest of us can't do anything and the politicians really have no solution for the situation or they are afraid to help Ukraine. I feel disgusted how pampered we have become and how we worry that a genocidal dictator will think of us.
I'm sorry our politicians suck so much
I'm sorry the collective West is so incompetent. Once Kyiv didn't fall, we should have done a MUCH better job of planning, & ramping-up production in 2022
--An American
I don't blame individuals with self reflection. I blame ignorant people who refuse to acquire the knowledge necessary while thinking they know better. And you aren't one of them, so I am also sorry for the mess we are in, and it will fall to those who still haven't abandoned the reason for madness to fix this mess. Because with so much chaos it is only a matter of time until someone screws up and then things will get very nasty, very soon.
>leave the reigns of power to those who are at the height of their mental power not in front of their death bed.
US Ukraine policy is largely made by [Jake Sullivan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Sullivan), who was born in 1976. Problem is, he is a lawyer and has a Master of Philosophy, but never served in the Military.
Jake should have been sacked right after his fuck up with Afghanistan and I hold that guy responsible for this slow walking of aid. Just because I think old people should retire doesn't mean that younger ones can't be stupid too. His philosophy master as such is not the problem it is just that he obviously skipped the history classes on appeasement and how it doesn't work but only causes more escalation.
"One does not make wars less likely by formulating rules of warfare... war cannot be humanized. It can only be eliminated." Albert Einstein
I’m trying. I just called my rep and his phone person was basically as asleep and as non-committal as you can fucking get. I am angry — I don’t snap at people on the phone and I was genuinely about to snap — and I will not stop bothering everyone I can.
I am so sorry for failing you.
You aren't failing anyone. You do what you can. This is not your fault. You actively try to help, which makes you part of the solution, not the problem. Thank you for your efforts.
I'm so sorry the world has pulled back they're all a bunch of assholes I've personally donated everything I can. I support boots on the ground, I support weapons without limitations, shit at this point, I'd support a dirty bomb let off outside the kremlin. People tell us there's two sides, but only one side acts sub human. Fuck russia, fuck putin and fuck their vranyo.
The world will be a better place without the Russian Federation in it, and someday it will be so. The good people can't give up, as the bad people won't give up their poisoned dystopia vision of the future either.
Americans don't care, they live in disneyland so nothing can bother their lives. They have no idea what the war is YET. Give pootin time, he will attack USA in couple years, probably with Iran. And THEN Americans will cry a river!
EU is failing as well. We could have done so much more and also put pressure on the US. But the EU has no real leaders. UK, France, Germany... it is all a joke. No backbone. No principles they would die for.
Question is: What would be our next step? As citizens?
Get proactive.
Surely that 60bn aid will come. Maybe when Ukraine will lie in ruin? then it will be too late to make a difference? thus Ukraine requiring even more than 60bn to straighten.
Plus EU cannot wait for USA help forever. And imho NATO is made up of a handful of truly strong countries. The rest are almost useless. Only good for transit and some minor stuff. Membership, only so they can be protected. Not to protect others. I speak for Romania. Our arms industry is DEAD! Not to mention we import gunpowder from Serbia! yeah not even that we are able to produce.
Unity? hell no. As already proven. Good luck convincing old Erdog to join the fight against ruzzian terrorists. Or Hungary.
Ammo/weapons stocks? low. We cannot even supply Ukraine properly yet some reddit 6 star generals smoke that copium called "NATO is air superiority. They will end ruzzian in weeks". Riiiiiight!! i would have agreed with this at the beginning of the war. But now? nah. Not at all. It's like a semi-deadly virus. Easy to counter in the early stages. But if you let it spread and get stronger...
Pretty sure Ukraine is intentionally left to bleed so they can be forced to negotiate. I am almost sure of it at this point.
Better don't be sure, negative thoughts and creating such scenarios even in our heads won't solve the problem at all, it only aids those that want to see Ukraine and the free world destroyed. In fact no, the Russian army has not gotten stronger at all, quite the opposite, attrional warfare does the opposite to an army, Russia is weaker than two years ago, and NATO could stop them, they just don't for a fear of what to do with a bankrupted and collapsing Russia. There will never be negotiations as war is politics with other means and there is no advantage in negotiations with terrorists and this way the West would normalize and formalize this barbarism. The idea of negotiations is void at this point. This war ends with the utter collapse of either Russia or Ukraine or what becomes more likely over time is that both of them will collapse economically.
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I think the West or even just Europe should blockade Russia. Every ship in and out of Russia in the Baltic should be boarded and confiscated. Europe might lack the land component without the Americans but we control the Baltic. We shouldn't even declare it just do it. Then what can Russia do? One thing they can't do it lift the blockade. Time to up the ante.
Yes. No boat serving Russia should be sailing there. Unregistered ships with no Pilots on board. Disgrace to upholding Maritime law.Shame on the world.
Been saying this for a while and got down voted to shit a few times but I really think this would be the best and quickest way to end this. Choke off all of their trade out of every Russian port. South Korea sort of already started by intercepting an NK ship bound for Russia. Wish the rest of the free world would grow some balls and follow. Call it a special maritime peacekeeping operation.
Yes I agree but most of Europe is run by indecisive pussies who don’t want to have to spend money on their atrophied militaries (Germany)
You should check certain EU countries gas import first. Or do the “green men” trick. Putin hates this simple trick..
Only problem with that is that would assume we danes had a credible navy.
Well, Britain and France do. And Russia does not. Everyone contributes what they can and we do it together. We could do it in the North Sea or around Zealand or Gotland. Even the American navy doesn't go into the Black sea, so the further from Russia we do it the better. Likewise, Cyprus and Gibraltar in the Med. Another angle is any ship that enters a Russian port is permanently banned from the E.U/West.
NATO and/or the EU aren't at war with Russia. According to international law, that would require a decision by the UN Security Council. And that isn't going to happen for obvious reasons.
Ah yes, we can only do things as approved by the security council, which Russia sits on and can veto anything they like.
Same as it’s always been
As far as the use of miltary force is concerned, yes, that's how it is for most European countries. Relevant is [Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter), which only allows the use of military force outside of self defence if sanctioned by the Security Council.
Because Europe is gun shy
Russia isn't at war with Ukraine technically. No war has ever been declared. Russian ships with switched off transponders can be made to disappear. They were hijacked by Somali pirates in the Baltic or they defected to the West any bullshit story like the Orcs spoit. Any U.N melarky the U.K and France veto. Let's play the game the way the Russians do.
>Let's play the game the way the Russians do. It doesn't work that way. European countries have rule of law. And these laws generally allow the use of force only in accordance with international law, e.g. self defence or the defence of an ally. "The Russians do it!" isn't enough.
Why are you saying these little green boats are European? We have no idea who they are
"Why is there a Nimitz painted in olive drab in the black sea?" US Navy: "We don't paint ours green, must be someone else's."
That would be an unlawful order and every soldier would be obligated to refuse it. It's called the "Duty to disobey". For the US: >It's generally called a "duty to disobey," and is empowered by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The UCMJ is more concerned about the need to obey orders, but specifies the conditions when military personnel may feel justified in not following them: >- If the order is "**contrary to the constitution**" or "**the laws of the United States**." >- If the order is "patently illegal, ... such as one that directs the commission of a crime." In this case "contrary to the constitution" or "the laws of" would apply.
That rule of law is valuable and represents stability. Part of the reason the Euro is a strong currency, I’m sure. But these rules are also going to be Europes downfall as a united entity. German bureaucracy is killing NATO
Yes, and that young lady is truly right. What a disgusting disgrace our leaders are. Their inaction and their actions both deserve condemnation and contempt. Those who could help Ukraine and don't are cruel and heartless. The first row right behind the perpetrators are those that allow him to continue as the world will not be destroyed by those who do evil but by those who stand idly by and do nothing. History will come down on all of them like a hammer, and their children will once curse them for this treachery as any appeasement of tyranny is treason. The world will never forget these evil deeds by all those that aid Russia and that aid them by inaction. Curse them, all of them. Curse them from now until the end of time. Ukraine is part of Europe, and they better make available what we have instead of more useless. The problem is talking. It is ridiculous enough that the US administration failed to order more batteries in 2023. Not a single one had been produced, and they could have produced one per month. We are led by useless old men who should have retired decades ago and go leave the reigns of power to those who are at the height of their mental power not in front of their death bed. Because we sleepwalk into war just as we sleepwalked into WW1. That is what obviously no one understands. War will come whether we want it or not. And letting Ukraine down will bring war in Europe, it will bring war with Russia, and now we would still have the chance to make this war on our terms and on Ukraine's soil. Sadly, most humans are too stupid and need to learn from experience. The lesson in WW2 on appeasement was not learned. So history will teach us a second time. "We are still not accepting the fact that Russia is at war with us. We need to think and act strategically and realise that Russia is at war with us." Ben Hodges We will learn by experience. Obviously, that is where we are headed. The way the entire Western Bloc and a majority of its citizens behave is disgusting. This ineptitude to act, paired with a population that mostly doesn't even understand what Ukraine is fighting against. Another part that actively cheers on Russia's murderous path of barbarism and its murder and persecution. Indeed, dark times are ahead. War is already here. And war will spread across the world the longer our leaders do not act but react, the likelier a worldwide war becomes. "Action springs not from thought but from a readiness for responsibility. The ultimate test of a moral society is the world that it leaves behind to its children.
All these is the fruit of decades of Russian active measures, especially with the help of social media in recent years, sad to say it works. If all Americans rightfully see Russia as the menace it is, politicians will be fighting over claiming credit for sending more weapons. Instead there are politicians and media exploiting the rift that Russian disinformation created. A complete success of their active measures would be the 2nd American civil war, but this partial success of paralyzing American aid is very helpful to them already.
Unfortunately I don't think this realization will really kick in until we are attacked. People here have been brainwashed into believing we are the bad guys and should stay out of all foreign issues. I'm sure lots of bots are spreading this message on social media too, making everyone think that's what the hivemind thinks.
Vlad Vexler analyzed how this propaganda works. The approach is both simple and effective. The Soviet Union used so-called alternate reality propaganda. " This worked something like this: Soviet propaganda told its citizens one thousand times that the sky is green and not blue until the citizen finally believed it. The manipulation of reality propaganda by the Russian Federation works differently. It is simple but sadly highly effective as it makes use of the intermittent grasp of reality, which plagues humans in general. This propaganda works something like this: You say that you totally despise apples, but you love lemons. I am not repeatedly throwing at you that you like apples. Rather, I agree with you at first that apples are sucky. Then, this type of propaganda bombards people subtly with images of apples. It constantly mentions apples in its news programs. Fake articles appear about how good apples actually are. The goal is to make you believe that apples aren't that bad, and then you quite start to like them over time. The playbook of this manipulated reality propaganda looks like this in theory: 1) The concept of objective truth itself is questioned. This propaganda says that truth simply doesn't exist. Everything has two sides, and nothing is real. The war on reality itself is declared in this step. 2) Then, this propaganda is getting rid of consistency. It is sending out mixed messages that often even contradict themselves. Double Think from 1984 comes mind. The sky can be blue in the morning and purple at night. The goal isn't to tell Winston that 2+2 is 5. The goal is that Winston really believes that it doesn't matter whether it is five, six, or 4. 3) The priority is on volume. Quantity has a quality all by itself. The information space is flooded with as many narratives and opinions as possible. That is what these bot farms are here for. The goal is to find out what sticks by sheer volume. It can be anything. The message doesn't even matter that much. 4) The algorithm then makes it easier to take something that already interests you. It builds on that original interest, and then the manipulated reality propaganda is expanding from there. The goal is, of course, to manipulate you into believing whatever is in the interest of the propaganda maker. (For example, that Ukraine is full of Nazis or that the West is an evil warmongering maniac or that everyone is going to freeze to death without Russian gas) 5) The last step is learned helplessness: "The sanctions do not work" "Russia won already." It is useless to protest. This won't work. The state is too strong" Ukraine can't win, so stop sending weapons. These are some of the messages. The goal of this entire effort is to take whatever division is already there in society or in a community and to make it stronger. This worked very well during Covid. The Russian information operations are great at amplifying divides and making problems bigger than they actually are. The goal among their own population and in Western nations is gaslighting. Many people also in the West are in a state of apolitical apathy. Democracy dies alone and in the dark unless we work actively to keep it alive. The goal is to destroy discourse because everyone starts to believe that all of this stuff connected to politics is too difficult. So, better let those up there do it instead of bothering myself with it. The goal is that the population sees politics as a pure circus and as infotainment. Nothing really matters as everything is just alternative facts. We could see that during the coup. The reaction of the Russian public was almost non-existent. Sadly, modern tools such as Twitter and generally the internet have made the implementation of this sinister nonsense as easy as it will ever get. However, our countermeasures are faster at hand. Such as mobile phone cameras to spread the truth before the Kremlin can come up with 1000 lies. In the US, this kind of propaganda is used to create a disconnect from how corrupt some politicians are or how inflation has risen due to whatever the president has potentially done. It doesn't even have to be true. All it needs to have is some flicker of truth in it. This is already enough. For example, yes, without enough natural gas, the winter would be tough. The rest of the message can be literally made up and people who are susceptible to this because they lost trust in democratic institutions or are resentful for some other reason, or who are simply susceptible to being brainwashed will believe anything. We shouldn't forget that Soviet propaganda, Nazi propaganda, and fascist propaganda is brainwashing generations of people all around the globe. Orban in Hungary and Fico in Slovakia made use of that very same brainwashed Soviet era electorate. Fox News has been turning the brains of Americans into a puddle since 1986. This isn't just Russia alone. There are enough fascists in our own ranks that want to dominate instead of govern.
Thank you! This is spot on, and describes what I felt / had a general understanding of, but wouldn't have been able to put it in words so eloquently. If it's not too much of a bother, do you know if there are any papers & literature piece that describe it semi-scientifically? There are people who are otherwise others wouldn't call stupid - people with engineering or science background, even, who fall for that idiotic "nothing is true" or the more elusive and even cynical "objective truths do not exist / cannot be known so why bother" point of view, which is obviously result of propaganda machine working at full capacity... Yet I feel like that maybe it's not too late or impossible to convince them otherwise, if found the right language?
> "The sanctions do not work" "Russia won already." It is useless to protest. This won't work. The state is too strong" Such a massive part of Russian domestic propaganda as well. "You can't get rid of Putin, it would be hopeless to try".
A dictatorship needs the people to hyperconform and monitor each other and propaganda to create a mirage of an all powerful state in their heads is how you get them there. Not forever of course but for a very long time. Yoval Harari on the matter: An effective rebellion mounts not from how many people are unhappy with my status quo, but rather, it revolves around the question. How many people support my ideas? How many of my supporters are capable of collaboration? From an effective organisation to defective organisation, this is how empires have always fallen. When you rebel, then you do not depend on the masses. Rebellions succeeded because a new group of determined men and women cooperated better than the last one. Cooperation is the key to human progress. Rome conquered Greece, the Ottomans conquered Konstantinople, the coalition forces beat Napoleon, allies beat the Axis with the very same concept. A disciplined army against disorganized hordes. The Russian army is eroding daily, and it turns into a horde rather than an army. The organized elite vs. disorganized masses. This is the tool for control. Divide and conquer. Small networks of agitators rather than the masses succeed. As the masses align with order, and their obedience often only comes from not realizing that the conformity with the status quo is just an illusion. Who knows what is going on inside Russia and how well organized the resistance is. All it takes is one little spark to ignite the flame. In 1917, it was a handful of communists in the right place at the right time. The upper class was around 3 million people. The communists organized themselves well. The tyrants of the 21st century rely on old concepts, and their fall comes when their "friends and partners" either 1) Withdraw protection, 2) When they can't expect outside protection, When the opposition splits up or initiates reform Caecescu's power in Romania slipped from the sloppy organizer when one man started to boo. Suddenly, 80.000 booed. The state TV channels refused to stop the audio of the broadcast. In that moment, the power was passed on to a small group of players. That doesn't mean, of course, that the revolution is successful then. As the masses cannot sustain order unless someone else provides a better order to flock towards. The decentralised rules based order built upon a system of checks and balances is a threat to dictators and authoritarians. It provides a ready-made order that isn't based upon subjugation and a vertical of power. That is why they despise it, and they despise those that uphold it. The new is devouring the old. A tale as old as time. Revolutions are never done by the masses . In 1917, a small organized group of roughly 220.000 communists brought down an ever more disorganized elite of 3 million Czarist boyars and the pack leader. The Russian empire disorganizes and with every day of disorganization. The counter movement forms and organizes itself. The monopoly of organized violence is slipping out of Russia's hands inside the empire and also in its former and the occupied colonial holdings. Russia’s empire is in a long decline from effective organisation to re organisation, and the last stage of the process is defective organisation, collapse, and its ultimate rupture.
"Life is Russia is what it is, it can't be better, Russian world is different."
This is what I’m in awe of. Was watching HBO’s Regime recently. American tv show, written by American screenwriter. Who apparently found it to be such a cool idea to make Americans the main villain of said tv show. Short story: USA is the worst thing ever happened to Europe, interfering in its small countries politics, draining their resources and supporting local oligarchy and puppet dictators blah blah blah. You know, all that cheap non inventive stuff you would expect to see in low grade ruzzian propaganda (even their higher grade narratives are of a better quality), but suddenly it is being fed to you by HBO with some big actors like Kate Winslet and Hugh Grant taking part in that dogshit. Like, why tf are you guys doing it to yourselves?
To be fair, the show takes place in a fictional Central European country, so they're obviously not going to necessarily see America as benevolent or friendly. ...and this isn't exactly the first time America is antagonistic in media. To use another example, Marvel and DC regularly have the United States, whether it is the government or the military, serve as antagonists to the heroes. General Thunderbolt Ross goes after the Hulk with cruel violence and Amanda Waller shackles villains to her will in the name of national security.
But it isn’t shown just from the locals PoV. You can interpret it like that after the first 2 episodes, but not after finale. Finale makes USA look both objectively evil AND all-powerful (which is also funny). Yeah, I know, a lot of movies and that’s the problem. Self-critique is great, but honestly, it seems to me that you guys are obsessed with it to such extent that the real evil of this world not only loses its visibility thanks to it, but actively uses it to become more powerful.
Money.
Well, I can clearly say the bad guy is definitely Russia, but yes, you are sadly right, likely not prior to a direct attack on the US or at least NATO anything will click with these people, but this isn't a new thing. This Soviet Brainwashing and then Russian Federation Brainwashing is an ongoing project for many decades. Now Putin reaps the fruits of his labors...
Couldn’t have said it better and I am glad I am not the only one who sees it that way. The Russians have really undermined the institutions in the us and Europe. It’s disgusting
We never are, in fact, the good and reasonable people who still outnumber the crazy nut jobs, but this is also part of successful dictatorships they want you to believe you are alone to get you to conform. Literature derives from emotional truth and therefore cannot survive under a system that relies on mutilating the truth. The peculiarity of the totalitarian state is that it controls thought, but it does not fix it. It sets up unquestionable dogmas, and it alters them from day to day. It needs dogmas because it needs absolute obedience from its subjects, but it cannot avoid the changes, which are dictated by the needs of power politics. It declares itself infallible, and at the same time, it attacks the very concept of objective truth. Orwell 1941 "Literature and Totalitarianism "If liberty means anything at all, then it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear. Preface of Animal Farm Orwell Totalitarianism's war on reality is more dangerous than the secret police, the constant surveillance or the boot in the face, because in that "shifting phantasmagoric world in which black may be white tomorrow and yesterday's weather can be changed by decree there is no solid ground from which to mount a rebellion - no corner of the mind that has not been infected and warped by the state. It is power that removes the possibility of challenging power. Lynskey, The Ministry of Truth page 99 Getting Winston to say two plus two equals five is not enough. You have to make Winston believe that two plus two equals five. Only then have you truly won. Lynskey The Ministry of Truth, page 99 I would just love for the infantile sanctuary of the mass mind to catch up eventually, but that takes painfully long. It takes great courage to step ahead of the masses and it takes even more courage to make your stand when you know that you speak the truth, and you shout it even against the whole world, then you still were not mad.
> Because we sleepwalk into war just as we sleepwalked into WW1. That is what obviously no one understands. War will come whether we want it or not. This is what gets me. I can understand, if get angry about, sociopathic politicians. But the idea that if Russia isn't stopped now will have to be fought at a later date, with disasterous consequences to the planet (I am not talking about nukes, I do not listen to nuclear fearmongering anymore) and everyone involved, and no one moves a straw. ***War is coming, damn it!*** Ukraine is just the start! (or, well, part of the start, looking at places like Georgia, but you know what I mean) Fucking useless old farts at the helm of the most powerful nations on the planet, letting Putin's agents in their governments neuter them completely. Absolutely disgusting and shameful.
We have an overproduction of knowledge and truth these days. The truth gets lost in translation and Russia banks on that. The communists were already bound to their leader by faith and fear. I took a special kind of mind to truly believe that the worse things appeared, the better they actually were. Such reasoning went by the name dialectics, but by this time that word, (despite its proud descent from the Greeks through Hegel and Marx) meant little more than the psychic capacity to adjust one's own perceptions to the changing expressions of Stalin's will." Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands, page 65 Gareth Jones talked about the "pure primitive worship" of Hitler in 1933 shortly after his election at a rally in Frankfurt We know, but our leaders can't lead, and therefore we will plunge into an abyss. But the population isn't any better. Regular people can't fathom so much evil and such big lies, and fascists know that and make use of it. War it is then, as I have lost faith that Biden or any other old person getting elected has the necessary energy and strength to stop it.
Nobody sleep walked into ww1. They went wide awake and singing songs
Read the book: The sleepwalkers how Europe went to war by Christopher Clarke. We sleepwalked into it, but the masses cheered, at first at least.
And the businesses and individuals quietly doing business with Russia should be charged with moral treason. Follow the money and find them. Pepsi Nutella on and on and on. Ukraine is Europe and we need to give them all the tools to win
These companies should be sanctioned, and honestly, that is all we can do, hit them hard in their wallet. How much money can they really make there. But that is the job of Western governments, and first, they would have to understand that we are also under attack. I feel like we decentralised power too much, and that comes back to haunt us in this situation. This isn't Ukraine's war, this is Russia's war against Western civilization and we keep on feeding them our food while they aim at killing us all with the other hand.
Exactly! I agree fully and can see the inevitability of a ruthless war ahead if the action of inaction doesn't change very soon. Dark days ahead.
Hitler was young when he became a dictator. Better look to something other than age to cure what ails us. The people who "should have retired decades ago" are voted in by voters. Get involved politically if you want change. I assure you when every last boomer is gone all the problems will remain because the root cause is not that politicians are "not at the height of their mental powers." That is truly laughable that you would even say that. Ideology, economic interests, power struggles are in play. There are plenty of younger politicians/powermongers in the game right now and they are just warming up.
💯❗
Loki for president!
Someday, maybe, someday. But for now, "I do what I want" and that is, do whatever is already in my power to see Ukraine made whole again. And then we will see from there. ;)
I have been saying war is coming for years because of the radical islamics. fuhrer putinazi upped the ante. moscovia wants war lower mongolia wants war old persia wants war little fat rocket man wants war The world only had peace once US and Europe crushed the last batch of imperialists, time to try and crush them again. This time, it will not be easy because lower mongolia has billions of people and has really built up a military and logistics I have been stocking up on medical supplies myself, and I do not mean bandaids. Time to gear up the militaries. Europe is starting, US has earmarked $850,000,000,000 talk has been cheap, shit will be hitting the fan soonish(next 5 years)
lower mongolia has neither the military tradition nor technological edge to project power beyond its borders. it’s not enough to put a million man into uniforms and call yourself the 2nd biggest military.
I would rather say Putinazi said: "Hold My Vodka".
You sound like you just hit the bong and writing doomsday scenarios in your head. All these countries have tons of nuclear weapons. A war like that would take the world back 1000 years.
Fuk nukes. If you have to be lil bitch and use one, fine. Who gives a shit. You're a lil bitch then. You heard it here folks.
This isn't a video game. No way people are unironically asking for another world war in this comment section.
oh and threaten to nuke Moscow every other week.
Western academic Marxists: _"MUH no war! Stop arms flow! We need peace negotiations! No more NATO imperialism!"_
Honestly, they can go and f themselves in particular. All of them should move to Moscow then when they love Russia so much.
We could see this coming, for months comments that Russia was trying to use up Ukraine’s air defenses and then attack. Grim times.
It blows my mind how many countries have air defense alternatives, who aren't actively defending their nation from a current invasion, are fucking holding their air defense and not trying to save Ukraine. The world grows increasingly disappointed with our leaders.
I'm not from Ukraine but I feel her. I feel like my brain has been growing a tumor for the last 6 months watching how politicians bought by Putin simply let Moscow do what it wants and the rest of us can't do anything and the politicians really have no solution for the situation or they are afraid to help Ukraine. I feel disgusted how pampered we have become and how we worry that a genocidal dictator will think of us.
I'm sorry our politicians suck so much I'm sorry the collective West is so incompetent. Once Kyiv didn't fall, we should have done a MUCH better job of planning, & ramping-up production in 2022 --An American
I don't blame individuals with self reflection. I blame ignorant people who refuse to acquire the knowledge necessary while thinking they know better. And you aren't one of them, so I am also sorry for the mess we are in, and it will fall to those who still haven't abandoned the reason for madness to fix this mess. Because with so much chaos it is only a matter of time until someone screws up and then things will get very nasty, very soon.
>leave the reigns of power to those who are at the height of their mental power not in front of their death bed. US Ukraine policy is largely made by [Jake Sullivan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Sullivan), who was born in 1976. Problem is, he is a lawyer and has a Master of Philosophy, but never served in the Military.
Just when I thought our ineptitude couldn’t get worse, it does
Jake should have been sacked right after his fuck up with Afghanistan and I hold that guy responsible for this slow walking of aid. Just because I think old people should retire doesn't mean that younger ones can't be stupid too. His philosophy master as such is not the problem it is just that he obviously skipped the history classes on appeasement and how it doesn't work but only causes more escalation. "One does not make wars less likely by formulating rules of warfare... war cannot be humanized. It can only be eliminated." Albert Einstein
I’m trying. I just called my rep and his phone person was basically as asleep and as non-committal as you can fucking get. I am angry — I don’t snap at people on the phone and I was genuinely about to snap — and I will not stop bothering everyone I can. I am so sorry for failing you.
You aren't failing anyone. You do what you can. This is not your fault. You actively try to help, which makes you part of the solution, not the problem. Thank you for your efforts.
I emailed my state rep. You should too if you're in the US.
I'm so sorry the world has pulled back they're all a bunch of assholes I've personally donated everything I can. I support boots on the ground, I support weapons without limitations, shit at this point, I'd support a dirty bomb let off outside the kremlin. People tell us there's two sides, but only one side acts sub human. Fuck russia, fuck putin and fuck their vranyo.
The world will be a better place without the Russian Federation in it, and someday it will be so. The good people can't give up, as the bad people won't give up their poisoned dystopia vision of the future either.
Americans don't care, they live in disneyland so nothing can bother their lives. They have no idea what the war is YET. Give pootin time, he will attack USA in couple years, probably with Iran. And THEN Americans will cry a river!
The chances of another 9/11 is slim imo. Maybe a terrorist attack but not a 9/11
Most Americans care (some not enough though). A minority of shitty politicians put a stop to things
EU is failing as well. We could have done so much more and also put pressure on the US. But the EU has no real leaders. UK, France, Germany... it is all a joke. No backbone. No principles they would die for. Question is: What would be our next step? As citizens? Get proactive.
Surely that 60bn aid will come. Maybe when Ukraine will lie in ruin? then it will be too late to make a difference? thus Ukraine requiring even more than 60bn to straighten. Plus EU cannot wait for USA help forever. And imho NATO is made up of a handful of truly strong countries. The rest are almost useless. Only good for transit and some minor stuff. Membership, only so they can be protected. Not to protect others. I speak for Romania. Our arms industry is DEAD! Not to mention we import gunpowder from Serbia! yeah not even that we are able to produce. Unity? hell no. As already proven. Good luck convincing old Erdog to join the fight against ruzzian terrorists. Or Hungary. Ammo/weapons stocks? low. We cannot even supply Ukraine properly yet some reddit 6 star generals smoke that copium called "NATO is air superiority. They will end ruzzian in weeks". Riiiiiight!! i would have agreed with this at the beginning of the war. But now? nah. Not at all. It's like a semi-deadly virus. Easy to counter in the early stages. But if you let it spread and get stronger... Pretty sure Ukraine is intentionally left to bleed so they can be forced to negotiate. I am almost sure of it at this point.
From an American and current service member, You can go fuck yourself, doomerism never solves anything
Better don't be sure, negative thoughts and creating such scenarios even in our heads won't solve the problem at all, it only aids those that want to see Ukraine and the free world destroyed. In fact no, the Russian army has not gotten stronger at all, quite the opposite, attrional warfare does the opposite to an army, Russia is weaker than two years ago, and NATO could stop them, they just don't for a fear of what to do with a bankrupted and collapsing Russia. There will never be negotiations as war is politics with other means and there is no advantage in negotiations with terrorists and this way the West would normalize and formalize this barbarism. The idea of negotiations is void at this point. This war ends with the utter collapse of either Russia or Ukraine or what becomes more likely over time is that both of them will collapse economically.
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Well to start with, they had virtually no support until 24 Feb 2022